Forbes: "AMD's Navi architecture created FOR Sony"

Bashteee · Jun 13, 2018

I really hope it's all just a big turd. Because if any of this is true, than the rumors regarding the Navi 20 (the highend part) might be true, too. This would be the worst for PC gaming. Like the stagnation with Intel in CPU space, now on the GPU side of things.

v_iHuGi said:
Yeah March 2020 maybe.

How much power are we expecting here on Navi 7nm and Ryzen + whatever it's called.

Speculation is putting the Navi as a midrange product roughly around the performance of a GTX 1080 for 250$. As for Ryzen+, there a lot of Benchmarks and what not. They are quite close to Intel in terms of performance. Intel usually is able to drive a higher frequency, winning the race in single performance by a larger margin, but the gap in a clock by clock comparison is much smaller.

BitsandBytes said:
This bit is what I was about to comment on before seeing it mentioned in this article. Past tense is right and what I read in the other articles about this. Sony's APU already taped out?

I heared that over at RedGamingTech, too. It appears that it's essentially ready and not in the design phase anymore. Maybe they are holding it all back for a 2020 release? Maybe late 2019 is going to happen after all? Who really knows.

EBomb · Jun 13, 2018

So the question is whether Navi is a full console exclusive or just a timed exclusive? Sony money hatting AMD! (I kid)

xolsec · Jun 13, 2018

I doubt AMD has the man power or resources to design a unique architecture for both MS and Sony, so they will both be based on Navi/Zen

PeakPointMatrix · Jun 13, 2018

So how powerful is this Navi thing?

BitsandBytes · Jun 13, 2018

PeakPointMatrix said:
So how powerful is this Navi thing?

No idea but I won't get my hopes up for any more than 10-12TF in the PS5 configuration.

Edit: I do expect a tonne of custom stuff and secret sauce though. I think this aspect could be more important than raw TF.

EBomb · Jun 13, 2018

PeakPointMatrix said:
So how powerful is this Navi thing?

Eight Ginyu Forces duct taped together, except the 8th Ginyu force is missing Captain Ginyu. Launch Title will be Just Dance 2020.

Toxik · Jun 13, 2018

2019? you guys are nuts!

xenocide · Jun 13, 2018

BigBlock said:
If Sony does in fact go with AMD. Does this make Microsoft. go with Intel? Or is it gonna be whoever they wanna work with?

edit

Both used AMD last gen, and with Microsoft's focus on backwards compatibility, it would be suicide to release a new console that completely lacked it.

Merv said:
AMD did custom versions of their Architecture for both MS and Sony last time, there is no reason to think they won't again.

Navi is AMDs product. There will be custom versions for the consoles.

They did custom versions of the GPU, but the architecture is the same across all devices. They may have fine tuned some things, but creating an entirely custom architecture versus an entirely custom SKU is mountains more difficult. Realistically the difference between the Xbox One and PS4 boiled down to the number of CU's and how they integrated with the CPU. Both were 2nd Gen GCN cores, similar to their desktop counterparts. The PS4 basically has a custom chip that is between an R7 265 and R9 270, and the Xbox One ended up with a custom R7 260.

Auctopus · Jun 13, 2018

Saint-14 said:
Is that good or bad though?

I'm sure someone in this thread who knows better than Sony's R&D will let us know.

Andromeda · Jun 13, 2018

Anthony Hopkins said:
I think AMD will be designing an APU that has a navi GPU for sony.
It makes little sense that sony will have exclusive rights for navi.
I guess it will be like the PS4 PROs custom Polaris with vega features.
This will be a custom Navi for sony.

Amd will most likely working on a custom navi for MS too.

If navi was the codename for sonys next gen console GPU why would AMD annouce navi as there next PC GPU?

Not necessarily and certainly not based on their last 2 consoles (XB1 and XBX). Microsoft has not really noteworthy custom GPU features on their XB1 or XBX. They use 100% PC GPUs. I am talking about hardware, not software features.

Sony already had custom GPU hardware on PS4 (onion buses, volatile bit) and even more custom hardware stuff (3) on Pro that are not even featured in VEGA GPUs.

Midas · Jun 13, 2018

Ushay said:
MS will be getting the exact same deal, it's not like AMD do exclusive deals haha, this isn't software.

Well of course, but that doesn't mean that they will have the same feature set, right? You do remember the difference between the Xbone and PS4 SoC?

BitsandBytes · Jun 13, 2018

Toxik said:
2019? you guys are nuts!

Then I'm a squirrel! Holiday 2019. PS5.

Stealth X Hawk · Jun 13, 2018

Anthony Hopkins said:
I think AMD will be designing an APU that has a navi GPU for sony.
It makes little sense that sony will have exclusive rights for navi.
I guess it will be like the PS4 PROs custom Polaris with vega features.
This will be a custom Navi for sony.

Amd will most likely working on a custom navi for MS too.

If navi was the codename for sonys next gen console GPU why would AMD annouce navi as there next PC GPU?

Exactly. What a dumb rumor

Fredrik · Jun 13, 2018

So MS would essentially be locked out from Navi and have to use the next or previous architecture instead? Sounds like the bad form of exclusivity deals from the software side has entered the hardware side of things.

Toxik · Jun 13, 2018

BitsandBytes said:
Then I'm a squirrel! Holiday 2019. PS5.

TLoU2 launch title?

rusty chrome · Jun 13, 2018

PeakPointMatrix said:
So how powerful is this Navi thing?

Guerrilla's PS5 game

xenocide · Jun 13, 2018

Fredrik said:
So MS would essentially be locked out from Navi and have to use the next or previous architecture instead? Sounds like the bad form of exclusivity deals from the software side has entered the hardware side of things.

That wouldn't happen. Mostly because I suspect it's kind of illegal, unless Sony goes full Apple and orders so many APU's that AMD can only fulfill Sony's request and nothing else, thus making it impossible for them to take orders from other companies.

DeaDPooL_jlp · Jun 13, 2018

Themaddestgamer said:
Huge if true.

Now I'm getting excited for the PS5. Please dont make the mistake of no BC.

I went all digital this gen for PS4, if those games dont carry over it will be a huge blow to my excitement.

Midas · Jun 13, 2018

Where does it say that Microsoft wouldn't have access to it? :lol

Hoxworth · Jun 13, 2018

BigWinnie1 said:
Maybe Microsoft is with Intel this time and we are gonna see chipsets face off and see who got the best shit.

God I hope not. Intel seems to be focusing on single core performance and we don't need any more justification for a lack of proper multithreading in 2019 going forward.

BitsandBytes · Jun 13, 2018

Toxik said:
TLoU2 launch title?

I expect (hope) the game to be out by this time next year at the latest TBH. Surely cross-gen or upgrade patched?

~Fake · Jun 13, 2018

PeakPointMatrix said:
So how powerful is this Navi thing?

Maybe powerful enought to put exclusives in 4k30. Who knows... The custom ps4pro have a inbuild checkerboard hardware. Maybe some even new tech inside this custom NAVI.

xenocide · Jun 13, 2018

Hoxworth said:
God I hope not. Intel seems to be focusing on single core performance and we don't need any more justification for a lack of proper multithreading in 2019 going forward.

I'll call bullshit. Intel's cores are basically maxed out, and each new revision of their line is adding more cores (i3's are now Quad Cores, i5's are Hexa Cores, i7's are Octo Cores) and aiming towards efficiency. AMD is the one focusing on per-core performance (the Ryzen 2 line is almost identical to the Ryzen 1 line, just with higher clock speeds and some manufacturing improvements focused on getting per-core parity with Intel).

~Fake · Jun 13, 2018

Toxik said:
TLoU2 launch title?

Nah... Maybe Horizon2.

Heshinsi · Jun 13, 2018

AegonSnake said:
I still dont understand how AMD can work with bost Sony and MS on their graphics cards. Why would AMD develop something for Sony and then not give it to MS? I doubt they have any patents on these chips.

Wasn't there something about IBM engineers taking research learned from collaborating on Cell, and using it on the X360 CPU?

Yep lol.

In 2003, IBM's Adam Bennett showed Microsoft specs for the still-in-development Cell core. Microsoft was interested and contracted with IBM for their own chip, to be built around the core that IBM was still building with Sony.
All three of the original partners had agreed that IBM would eventually sell the Cell to other clients. But it does not seem to have occurred to Sony that IBM would sell key parts of the Cell before it was complete and to Sony's primary videogame-console competitor. The result was that Sony's R&D money was spent creating a component for Microsoft to use against it.

https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2009/jan/01/sony-xbox-ibm

5Twist · Jun 13, 2018

DeaDPooL_jlp said:
I went all digital this gen for PS4, if those games dont carry over it will be a huge blow to my excitement.

It would basically eliminate a lot of goodwill from the customers if Sony doesn't implement PS4 BC at the very minimum.

ethomaz · Jun 13, 2018

It just mean they will get some part of the chip from Navi like they did with PS4 chip (GCN 1.2 parts) and Pro chip (Vega parts) while MS uses a more standard GPU parts combo (full Vega 7nm).

EBomb · Jun 13, 2018

ethomaz said:
It just mean they will get some part of the chip from Navi like they did with PS4 chip (GCN 1.2 parts) and Pro chip (Vega parts) while MS uses a more standard GPU parts combo (full Vega 7nm).

Yes, because things must proceed exactly the same way this time.

Fredrik · Jun 13, 2018

xenocide said:
That wouldn't happen. Mostly because I suspect it's kind of illegal, unless Sony goes full Apple and orders so many APU's that AMD can only fulfill Sony's request and nothing else, thus making it impossible for them to take orders from other companies.

Okay, but I'm thinking if it's made for PS5 can it still be made for "Xbox Two" as well?

gofreak · Jun 13, 2018

BitsandBytes said:
This bit is what I was about to comment on before seeing it mentioned in this article. Past tense is right and what I read in the other articles about this. Sony's APU already taped out?

I wouldn't take this article as an original source... I think it's just purely a respin of the wccftech article, reskinned as 'my sources'.

Fredrik said:
So MS would essentially be locked out from Navi and have to use the next or previous architecture instead? Sounds like the bad form of exclusivity deals from the software side has entered the hardware side of things.

Nah, I don't think so. Even if AMD is collaborating closely with Sony on Navi, I don't think it would necessarily preclude them from using the IP as they see fit elsewhere, and with other clients. Maybe some parts of the PS5 chip would be Sony IP and only for PS5, but the general Navi architecture would be for AMD to use as it sees fit.

That's even assuming the story in that wccftech article is true, and can be taken at face value of course.

Anthony Hopkins · Jun 13, 2018

Andromeda said:
Not necessarily and certainly not based on their last 2 consoles (XB1 and XBX). Microsoft has not really noteworthy custom GPU features on their XB1 or XBX. They use 100% PC GPUs. I am talking about hardware, not software features.

Sony already had custom GPU hardware on PS4 (onion buses, volatile bit) and even more custom hardware stuff (3) on Pro that are not even featured in VEGA GPUs.

Regardless of what hardware they come up with.
Digital foundry comparisons will show the most powerful system.

ps3ud0 · Jun 13, 2018

I wouldn't read much into this - can't see why MS and Sony won't use the same architecture and family but have their own tweaks as they require.

They are the customer...

As an aside would it be unfair for me to speculate that MS probably have more flexibility it what CPU/GPU or APU they use to ensure BC because how DX works at a higher abstraction layer (don't think that's the term I'm after).

While Sony may have to remain with AMD to get something like BC to work...

AMD still remains the best compromise AFAIC

ps3ud0 8)

jelly · Jun 13, 2018

Microsoft will just get something similar from AMD. I expect them to be close unless one comes out earlier then we will see a gap, a small one.

Intel isn't even worth considering. Who would trust that mob and Microsoft got burnt big time with them on the original Xbox.

Fredrik · Jun 13, 2018

gofreak said:
I wouldn't take this article as an original source... I think it's just purely a respin of the wccftech article, reskinned as 'my sources'.

Nah, I don't think so. Even if AMD is collaborating closely with Sony on Navi, I don't think it would necessarily preclude them from using the IP as they see fit elsewhere, and with other clients. Maybe some parts of the PS5 chip would be Sony IP and only for PS5, but the general Navi architecture would be for AMD to use as it sees fit.

That's even assuming the story in that wccftech article is true, and can be taken at face value of course.

Basically sounds like it is today, where both consoles has their own tweaks made just for them.

Merv · Jun 13, 2018

xenocide said:
They did custom versions of the GPU, but the architecture is the same across all devices. They may have fine tuned some things, but creating an entirely custom architecture versus an entirely custom SKU is mountains more difficult. Realistically the difference between the Xbox One and PS4 boiled down to the number of CU's and how they integrated with the CPU. Both were 2nd Gen GCN cores, similar to their desktop counterparts. The PS4 basically has a custom chip that is between an R7 265 and R9 270, and the Xbox One ended up with a custom R7 260.

I mean, that is what I said. I just didn't think it needed to be spelled out.

Navi architecture, custom implementation.

v_iHuGi · Jun 13, 2018

BitsandBytes said:
No idea but I won't get my hopes up for any more than 10-12TF in the PS5 configuration.

Edit: I do expect a tonne of custom stuff and secret sauce though. I think this aspect could be more important than raw TF.

Horizon 2 & Naughty Dog new IP will look more real than real life :p

RobbRivers · Jun 13, 2018

If there is an exclusivity, do you think the possibility that Ms makes a takeover to AMD to assure BC? (Sorry english is not my main language)

Bashteee · Jun 13, 2018

xenocide said:
I'll call bullshit. Intel's cores are basically maxed out, and each new revision of their line is adding more cores (i3's are now Quad Cores, i5's are Hexa Cores, i7's are Octo Cores) and aiming towards efficiency.

And they really should, because the Ryzens seem to be a lot more power efficent. Regarding more cores: that's only due to the competition, we would still be on 4C otherwise. I don't think we ever saw so many CPU releases in the last 10 years as we did in the last 14 months.

christocolus · Jun 13, 2018

EBomb said:
Yes, because things must proceed exactly the same way this time.

Lol

AegonSnake · Jun 13, 2018

Heshinsi said:
Wasn't there something about IBM engineers taking research learned from collaborating on Cell, and using it on the X360 CPU?

Yep lol.

https://amp.theguardian.com/technology/blog/2009/jan/01/sony-xbox-ibm

lol thats hilarious.

i know they say that the teams making XBox and PS4 APUs are different but come on they probably have lunch together and bang each others wives.

Even if they dont share any info, the fact that Sony is so deeply involved in Navi's development means that they are indirectly going to help MS with their GPU since MS is bound to be using a Navi GPU.

xenocide · Jun 13, 2018

Fredrik said:
Okay, but I'm thinking if it's made for PS5 can it still be made for "Xbox Two" as well?

The last 2 gens has seen both companies get surprisingly similar APU's from the same company. They wouldn't use the exact same hardware, but they will likely be very similar.

Bashteee said:
And they really should, because the Ryzens seem to be a lot more power efficent. Regarding more cores: that's only due to the competition, we would still be on 4C otherwise. I don't think we ever saw so many CPU releases in the last 10 years as we did in the last 14 months.

Intel laid out this timeline before Ryzen was even announced. It takes 2-3 years to go from testing to production on most devices. They didn't just up and decide to make 8-Core i7's because AMD got a decent chip out. The Ryzen CPU's are great, but there's plenty the Intel CPU's still do better--Intel CPU's still lead in gaming, but Ryzen is better in thread-heavy general use computing.

gofreak · Jun 13, 2018

RobbRivers said:
If there is an exclusivity, do you think the possibility that Ms makes a takeover to AMD to assure BC? (Sorry english is not my main language)

I don't think there's any exclusivity here, aside from what a customer might bring to the table themselves in terms of customisation.

But let's say there was - for the purposes of BC, Microsoft would still have a license to their existing designs, which I believe they'd have the right to modify and die-shrink independently as they see fit. I don't think there's any need for them to remain in a relationship with AMD in order to have an ongoing license to use that IP going forward for BC, if that kind of low level stuff was necessary in order to achieve BC.

And the same vice-versa. Even if MS bought AMD in the morning, Sony's license to use the IP in their GPU designs as they see fit would be unaffected. Of course it might complicate their choice of AMD for fresh designs, which itself might make BC more complicated or expensive, but technically it wouldn't make it impossible.

Dekim · Jun 13, 2018

If Sony is going for Zen+, I see MS going with Zen 2.

Hoxworth · Jun 13, 2018

xenocide said:
I'll call bullshit. Intel's cores are basically maxed out, and each new revision of their line is adding more cores (i3's are now Quad Cores, i5's are Hexa Cores, i7's are Octo Cores) and aiming towards efficiency. AMD is the one focusing on per-core performance (the Ryzen 2 line is almost identical to the Ryzen 1 line, just with higher clock speeds and some manufacturing improvements focused on getting per-core parity with Intel).

Ryzen Year 2 is Ryzen+, not Ryzen 2. It was an incremental upgrade/refresh and everyone knew that going in. I don't see why they should be faulted for that, Intel has been doing the same for over half a decade. Also, Intel likely would continue along the path of Skylake-Kaby Lake for another 5 years if it weren't for AMD finally competing in the market again (and anything above 4 cores would've continued to be out of reach for mainstream consumers at a reasonable price, they were even slowly raising the price on their top of the line unlocked i7 models). Intel was so unprepared that they misled consumers into believing that they had a "5Ghz 28-core processor" last week, not disclosing the fact that they were using a chiller behind the scenes and they even tried to cover it up by giving exhibitors 20 minutes to pack it up for collection when the news started getting out. Intel was similarly rushed with Coffee Lake.

Intel's multithreading performance is pathetic and it'll take a major architecture change to change that. Maybe they'll have something in time for Microsoft starting to shop around but I'm skeptical and even if they could, would it be affordable?

Kieli · Jun 13, 2018

Saint-14 said:
So what does this mean for someone who knows nothing about tech? Is that a good thing?

It's neither good nor bad. It's just a thing.

Kerozinn · Jun 13, 2018

Ushay said:
MS will be getting the exact same deal, it's not like AMD do exclusive deals haha, this isn't software.

you sound like you are worried lol

Coinspinner · Jun 13, 2018

All first party PS5 games will insist that the player listens.

Aokiji · Jun 13, 2018

v_iHuGi said:
No smoke without fire, Playstation 5 is closer than anyone thinks.

if closer = 2020 instead of 2021 sure. it's not coming out next year lol. theyre still talking about designing chips

GameAddict411 · Jun 13, 2018

I think what this article seems to indicate is that without Sony, Navi would have not been possible. It might have meant that AMD would probably have delayed any new consumer products for a while. But it seems strange to me. What if Sony didn't come along? Would AMD gpu stop existing all together?

BitsandBytes · Jun 13, 2018

gofreak said:
I wouldn't take this article as an original source... I think it's just purely a respin of the wccftech article, reskinned as 'my sources'.

Of course I get that. FWIW the original author at wccftech (Usman Pirzada) stated in the comments that he talked to the source in person and that he is very confident the source info is legit:

This isn't from TweakTown. Everything you read inside this article is based on my own sources who I talked to in person in Taiwan and is our exclusive.

I can attest to my source's credibility or I would not publish it. I really doubt its the same source but Navi is being made for the PS5. So whoever he talked to got that right. Plus if you look, I have alot more details. :)

Let me put it this way, my level of certainty on this is the same as when I leaked Raja moving to Intel.

Forbes: "AMD's Navi architecture created FOR Sony"

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