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Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Unless i am mistaken Bran has never warged into any other person other than Hodor. Until I see him do it again to another person I am gonna assume it was a special case given Hodors history.

According to GRRM, the Starks can warg into anything but Bran's the only one working on it.

And considering that a much weaker warg got control of a normal human body for a split second, I think Bran as he is now could do it to any person. He could take control of Hodor back when he was just Bran. Now he's so powerful that he can see intersecting timelines.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,254
According to GRRM, the Starks can warg into anything but Bran's the only one working on it.

And considering that a much weaker warg got control of a normal human body for a split second, I think Bran as he is now could do it to any person. He could take control of Hodor back when he was just Bran. Now he's so powerful that he can see intersecting timelines.
I guess we will find out
 

Jiggy

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,303
wherever
Or D&D are just bad writers, or have bad memory. I remember watching an interview in which they asserted that Sam was not a POV character in the books.

Much as I like to dunk on D&D, I don't that's an example of poor writing. Jaime's not exactly very forthcoming with that information. In the books, Brienne is the only one in the world he ever confided in about Aerys. In the show, Tyrion knows as well.

I actually thought Jaime would bring it up so the writers can remind the audience that the wildfire exists when it inevitably gets used in the finale, but I guess they can do it later.
 

julian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,803
Stannis time, bitches!

We last left off speaking about one of Stannis' greatest traits, his strict sense of justice. However, we also began to explore one of his weaker traits, his uncomfortableness and devaluing of women. We're going to kick this next part of our daily Stannis Treatise on another one of Stannis' weaker traits, starting with his jealously and pettiness.



Part V The Grinding Jealous Pettiness of Stannis

As I've long prefaced, Stannis is not a perfect man. Nobody is in this series. But, one of Stannis' defining weaker traits is his latent jealously that spills into pettiness. Remember, Stannis was never loved. Robert was bigger, stronger, more handsome, easy with the ladies, and just generally a personable guy. Everyone loved Robert, even his enemies. During the Rebellion he'd defeat his foes, then invite them in his tent for drinks where they'd suddenly turn into allies. This is not something Stannis was ever good at, he's not what you call a people person.

Again, Stannis is honest, too honest. If a women were to ask the age old, "how does this dress make me look?" Stannis would give the most brutally honest answer without a hint that he thought he was doing anything wrong. He never learned or cared to learn how to speak with a gentle grace or tact. He just tells people straight up what he thinks of them, even in the presence of others which might easily embarrass them and turn them, unintentionally, into enemies. It's something even Stannis recognizes as a fault of his:


The fact that others, especially Robert, are so easy at making friends and being loved causes Stannis to have a lot of deep-seated resentment. Also, recall that Robert slighted Stannis at every opportunity which only further intensified his often just feelings of resentment and jealousy towards Robert and others. Nowhere can you see Stannis' underlying jealousy of others more apparent than in his descriptions of Ned Stark.

Now, you'd think a man like Ned Stark would be Stannis' #1 friend. Ned Stark was honorable, honest, noble, virtuous, and loyal. He wasn't some ladies man nor was he some great boaster or man full of japes. Yet, whenever Stannis refers to Ned Stark it's done in a very clinical manner without any hint of warmth. Here's how he refers to Ned the first time he encounter Jon:



Later on, when still measuring Jon Snow, he once again mentions Ned Stark not being his friend:



And, when Jon refuses to be legitimize as Jon Stark, Lord of Winterfell:



But, why would Stannis have such bitterness towards Ned fucking Stark? Well, we get an early glimpse of his feelings towards Lord Eddard Stark in the second book when he treats with Catelyn Stark. Amidst their exchange we begin to understand why he never was friends with Ned:


And now things begin to make sense, Stannis was jealous of Ned Stark because he had what he always wanted. The love of his older brother and the love of the people. Ned Stark was similar to Stannis in terms of loyalty, honesty, and being virtuous. Yet, he managed to avoid being a prickly, unfun scowl that Stannis was resulting in him earning the love of many individuals. Of course, worse of all is how Robert basically treated Ned Stark as his real brother, showering him with all the rewards that Stannis believed should have rightly gone to him, the next youngest brother.

Ned Stark even managed to get credit for lifting the siege at Storm's End, not Stannis the man who held the family castle for over a year when they were down to eating rats. It's because of all this that Stannis was never friends with Ned Stark and still holds a bitter jealousy towards him even after he has long past. Think about that, Ned and Robert are both dead in the grave and yet Stannis is still harboring an old wound from years ago. He just can't let it go.

And, letting things ago is something Stannis precisely has a hard time with. If you slight Stannis or refuse him in some way, he won't fucking forget it. He'll bring that shit up every fucking time he sees you. He's that friend where if you promise to do something for them and then forget to do it, they bring that shit up every single time you go out with them. Hell, they'd probably bring it up at your funeral. Of course, even Jon Snow can't fail to recognize this. After Jon declines his offer to rule Winterfell, Stannis can't help to bring up his refusal at every encounter:


All in all, Stannis harbors a deep resentment at all the love he was denied in his youth and all the favor that went towards Robert. As a result, he's still a very jealous and petty man to this day, even though he often recognizes it.

Part VI The Irreligiosity of Stannis Baratheon


Moving on from one of his primary faults, let's now examine an aspect of Stannis that show watchers may not have realized about real Stannis, the fact that Stannis is no religious fanatic. It's only the show that paints Stannis as some fanatical follower of the Lord of Light and Melisandre's prattling. The real Stannis is one of the few, practically open, atheists in the series. Stannis has no use for religion. He lost any faith he had in the Gods when his parents died. He explains his views of religion to Davos directly and why he keeps Melisandre around:


And there you have it, straight from the man himself. Stannis is no religious fanatic, he barely believes the Gods exist. But, Melisandre inspires fear in others and that's something he can use. Now later on, as Melisandre's prophecies become more and more true and she performs other feats, Stannis becomes more a believer in the Lord of Light, or at least the prophecy of Azor Ahai. Yet, even then he is skeptic. Stannis was never loved or chosen by anyone for anything, why would a God choose him as his warrior? He asks this very same question when letter from the Night's Watch calling for aid reaches Dragonstone and Melisandre proclaims him as the Chosen Warrior:


Once again, despite all of Melisandre's words, he remains skeptical. Which brings us ever closer to the burning of Shireen, an event which has not occurred in the books just yet. But, you should know very well that Stannis, even at this late stage, does not believe in burnings to appease some God for better weather. Several times his own men, followers of R'hllor implore Stannis to burn some criminals or captives. Stannis rarely obliges.


Stannis has burned a number of individuals, but rarely because they were simple unbelievers. To him, burning is just another method of execution that is practiced by everyone. The only exception is that his method of execution has a chance to result in magic, at least according to Melisandre. The only time he burns individuals for not believing is when he demands the idols of the Seven Gods be torn down on Dragonstone and given to the flames. A number of nobles refuse and attempt to block this act, as a result they are burned.

But, this is less because Stannis is a believer but more likely a result of his non-belief. Stannis doesn't really understand why people cling to religion so fervently as he was never a religious person. To him, burning the Seven means nothing, so why are others so upset about it? In the end, they burned because they defied an order from their king and not because they worship the wrong faith. After all, Davos is a fervent believer in the Seven and Stannis never slights him for it.

All in all, Stannis is not some religious fanatic that believes in fairy tales easily. He's a deeply skeptical man that continues to question religious faith and prophecy even after bearing witness to some pretty strange shit.

Well done.

His resentment towards Ned for being made Hand is especially interesting when compared with how he made Davos his Hand. He believes the title was his by right despite Hand not really having any sort of hard rules like that. Maybe he slighted the other nobles precisely because he too had felt slighted.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
In the show that was stated that they turned him into a Wight but the Children of the Forest converted him (I think they were raising him from the dead rather than converting him to a WW). WhiteWalkering isn't totally complete off the bat - the baby is kinda shown to have his eyes turn but not the rest of his body after getting touched. I think the Dragon is a Wight too - the Wights get blue eyes the same as the Walkers, but their bodies just stay in whatever state they were in when they died. The Dragon has some holes in its wings and the body looks a bit roughed up, so I'm sticking with Wight. Whereas the Walkers seem to be whole in tact bodies.

If the Children could convert Benjen I'm not sure why they couldn't convert more, though if it requires Obsidian it could be a simple matter of lack of supplies.

Ah OK, I just misremembered.
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
I'd like to see how the NK and his magic confronts whatever the fuck The Mountain is. Like I wonder if he might be surprised somewhat, but maybe find something familiar to his power. Could he highjack The Mountain or maybe not?
 

Igniz12

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,453
Are White Walkers supposed to be living or dead entities? I don't remember all the details about them.

Second question, would Bran be able to warg into a dead thing?
7bebd458-dfe9-4c35-beee-da10caaaa99b.jpg
 

Maneil99

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
5,252
I'd like to see how the NK and his magic confronts whatever the fuck The Mountain is. Like I wonder if he might be surprised somewhat, but maybe find something familiar to his power. Could he highjack The Mountain or maybe not?
The mountain never died. He took a vow of silence. There is some weird notion that he died and came back. Pretty sure atleast in the book he was just really close to dying
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
Are White Walkers supposed to be living or dead entities? I don't remember all the details about them.

Second question, would Bran be able to warg into a dead thing?

From Martin:

are strange, beautiful… think, oh… the Sidhe made of ice, something like that… a different sort of life… inhuman, elegant, dangerous.

In the show we're to assume the Night King created them as infants or something. So they would still seem to fit the bill here.
 

Oldest_Snake

Member
Oct 29, 2017
550
The mountain never died. He took a vow of silence. There is some weird notion that he died and came back. Pretty sure atleast in the book he was just really close to dying

Naa man he's totally dead in the books. In Dorne they say that if Oberyn's poison got him then there's no way he survived and sure they could be wrong, but GRRM also mentioned in ASOS that Qyburn lost his Maester's chain because he was fooling around with necromancy (or as good as says that's what it is). He's definitely undead.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,085
The mountain never died. He took a vow of silence. There is some weird notion that he died and came back. Pretty sure atleast in the book he was just really close to dying
He died and is likely headless/head swapped with someone else. His skull was supposedly sent to Dorne

He's a zombie in the show and the books. His revival is more messed up in the books though (as magic tends to be in them) because Cersei is sending women down to Qyburn as materials for his experiments. The books play up more of the mad scientist/necromancer vibe he has going on
 

Mórríoghain

Member
Nov 2, 2017
5,151
Qyburn straight up necromanced The Mountain and the only explanation we got (in the show) was like "yeah he is back and he is stronger now". Is Qyburn supposed to be well-versed in necromancy/blood magic whatever?
 

Deleted member 7130

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,685
Yeah, the show really gave off the fact that necromancy was what Qyburn was doing. They did ship off Mountain's head and Cersei was supplying him with people... to maybe use them for spare parts?
 

Yankee Ruin X

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,687
According to GRRM, the Starks can warg into anything but Bran's the only one working on it.

And considering that a much weaker warg got control of a normal human body for a split second, I think Bran as he is now could do it to any person. He could take control of Hodor back when he was just Bran. Now he's so powerful that he can see intersecting timelines.

Yeah all the Starks should have had the ability to warg at least into their Direwolves in the books I believe. Sansa never showed an ability for it because Lady got killed and can't remember Rob ever doing it either. However Arya, Jon and Rickon all could warg into their Direwolves. Rickon was a problem though because he was so young it kind of made him become feral.

Arya/Nymeria was such a cool storyline I was gutted they cut it from the show. All her "dreams" about being a wolf/Nymeria and not realising she actually was. As the story goes along in her "dreams" she joins a pack and the pack keeps growing, then you start hearing tales from villagers of some huge wolf pack ripping Lannister troops to shreds in the Riverlands. You slowly start to realise that the wolf pack in her dreams are coming for her and keep getting closer and closer and by the time she boards the ship for Braavos they are right behind her. So close Nymeria but just missed her, I was gutted in the show when she reunited with Arya and she left her thought they were finally going to do the storyline but those damn dragons taking all the budget.

In the inevitable remake of the show I hope they add in all these awesome things from the books and do the other side stories justice, things like the Ironborn and Dorne would have been great if they had done them properly.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
Naa man he's totally dead in the books. In Dorne they say that if Oberyn's poison got him then there's no way he survived and sure they could be wrong, but GRRM also mentioned in ASOS that Qyburn lost his Maester's chain because he was fooling around with necromancy (or as good as says that's what it is). He's definitely undead.

Yea he doesn't eat, sleep, shit, or piss. He's undead.
 

Jecht

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,650
Qyburn straight up necromanced The Mountain and the only explanation we got (in the show) was like "yeah he is back and he is stronger now". Is Qyburn supposed to be well-versed in necromancy/blood magic whatever?

There are plenty of seeds in the show even before that to support the notion that he is a necromancer. The very first episode he is in he says the Citadel took his chain because of his "experiments".
 

Yankee Ruin X

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,687
How do you plan efficiently against an army of dead people?
You can't, they're doing the best they can.

"Ok everyone listen up, first we are going to do a quick sweep across the battlefield with the dragons to try and take out as many White Walkers as possible with an initial attack. Killing those will also take out any Wights they themselves turned so could potentially remove a large portion of the undead forces in one swoop. Next up we locate any of the remaining White Walkers and rain down on them with Dragonglass arrows, if they get hit then they explode and again take out any Wights they turned. Light the trenches as we know that fire stops Wights so they will not proceed passed it whilst hunting for more White Walkers on the ground. Oh also barricade the Crypts because ya know the Night King can raise the dead so probably better lock that shit down just incase. Me and Daenerys will stay with the Dragons after the initial swoop attack just out of reach and will keep an eye out for the Night King and Viserion, when he shows we will flank him and blast him out the sky"
 

Blackthorn

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,319
London
While I enjoyed the first two episodes for what they were, it does feel like insanity that two of the final seven episodes have been spent spinning their wheels. It's easy to imagine an edit that squashes these two down to one, especially when you consider how much ground a movie can cover in the equivalent running time.
 

Civilstrife

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,286
While I enjoyed the first two episodes for what they were, it does feel like insanity that two of the final seven episodes have been spent spinning their wheels. It's easy to imagine an edit that squashes these two down to one, especially when you consider how much ground a movie can cover in the equivalent running time.

Final six.
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,426
Phoenix, AZ
While I enjoyed the first two episodes for what they were, it does feel like insanity that two of the final seven episodes have been spent spinning their wheels. It's easy to imagine an edit that squashes these two down to one, especially when you consider how much ground a movie can cover in the equivalent running time.

I'm trying to figure out what ppl like you want. Squashing them down to one when 'Winterfell' already felt rushed is insanity to me

Action sequences every episode? A battle every episode? Deaths every episode?

Cuz for me, I'll take 3 more "episode 2"s because I still crave more character interactions and meaningful dialogue. We haven't had an episode the likes of the previous once since... probably Season 4. The "spinning wheels" argument makes no sense either, because major events have happened these 2 episodes.
 

FaceHugger

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
13,949
USA
I admit ep 2 this season is one of my favorites because it focused solely on the characters themselves and the relationships they've built up. I expect a frantic race to the finish from here on though.
 

Speevy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
19,379
Here is the problem with what guys are suggesting.

In seasons 6 and 7, they already resolved the human conflicts in a rather rushed way. The sept explosion, Highgarden invasion, Euron's shenanigans.

These all dd away with a lot of characters in a short time, and while these sequences were cool, they don't enrich the story.

The only thing they CAN do, other than have more rushed deaths, is just have some character interactions. I had no problem with what happened on the first two episodes because at the very least, the characters weren't rushing their arcs. There were no holes in why they were there or what they were doing.
 

Burrman

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,633
The NK isn't showing up to winterfell. He's on his dragon ready to burn down the citadel. Everyone gonna be shook!
 

Wackamole

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,946
I admit ep 2 this season is one of my favorites because it focused solely on the characters themselves and the relationships they've built up. I expect a frantic race to the finish from here on though.
Exactly. That's what tv shows can do vs a movie. Also, making everyone likeable just so that what comes will be extra brutal and emotional. Some people here have no idea about build-up. Just watch a Michael Bay movie and finish your energy drink.
 

Blackthorn

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,319
London
I'm trying to figure out what ppl like you want. Squashing them down to one when 'Winterfell' already felt rushed is insanity to me

Action sequences every episode? A battle every episode? Deaths every episode?

Cuz for me, I'll take 3 more "episode 2"s because I still crave more character interactions and meaningful dialogue. We haven't had an episode the likes of the previous once since... probably Season 4. The "spinning wheels" argument makes no sense either, because major events have happened these 2 episodes.
Who are people like me? You don't have to characterise those who disagree with you as people who watch the show with glazed eyes smashing popcorn into their mouth.

Anyway, I don't want nonstop action scenes, I just want meaningful plot progression from two hours of television.

I enjoyed the episodes from a fan perspective, especially the second, but I can't help but feel much more could have been done with the time. Especially, as I was corrected above, knowing that a third of the final season has gone by.
Exactly. That's what tv shows can do vs a movie. Also, making everyone likeable just so that what comes will be extra brutal and emotional. Some people here have no idea about build-up. Just watch a Michael Bay movie and finish your energy drink.
Comical levels of patronising.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,058
The mountain never died. He took a vow of silence. There is some weird notion that he died and came back. Pretty sure atleast in the book he was just really close to dying

Naa man he's totally dead in the books. In Dorne they say that if Oberyn's poison got him then there's no way he survived and sure they could be wrong, but GRRM also mentioned in ASOS that Qyburn lost his Maester's chain because he was fooling around with necromancy (or as good as says that's what it is). He's definitely undead.

^ This. The mountain is dead. Qyburn is all about necromancy.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,058
Qyburn straight up necromanced The Mountain and the only explanation we got (in the show) was like "yeah he is back and he is stronger now". Is Qyburn supposed to be well-versed in necromancy/blood magic whatever?

He trained under a Grand Maester cut from the show called Marwyn the Mage. He's ignored by a lot of the other Grand Maester because he chose to focus his study on the arcane arts. Also, Mirri Maz Durr, the witch that Dany burned, also spent some time with Marwyn the Mage. Which means her and Qyburn likely crossed paths, I can't remember if the books outright confirm it. In the books, Sam is, at the moment, learning under Marwyn the Mage who knows all about the WW threat.
 
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Neo_MG90

Member
Apr 23, 2018
1,136
I'm trying to figure out what ppl like you want. Squashing them down to one when 'Winterfell' already felt rushed is insanity to me

Action sequences every episode? A battle every episode? Deaths every episode?

Cuz for me, I'll take 3 more "episode 2"s because I still crave more character interactions and meaningful dialogue. We haven't had an episode the likes of the previous once since... probably Season 4. The "spinning wheels" argument makes no sense either, because major events have happened these 2 episodes.

The issue for me and for what I understand, Blackthorn too, is not these "chill" episodes, they are cool and add a lot to the characters, but the problem is the time!
Going for these first two episodes, it seems like the series still has 10~15 episodes to go, but there are only 4 left!
For me it seems little time to resolve the battle against the dead AND who is going to sit on the Iron Throne.

Now to wait and see how they are going to it.
 

CampFreddie

A King's Landing
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,968
I generally prefer the more "talky" episodes to the "action" episodes. EP 1& 2 were okay, but they didn't really do anything with the dialogue.
Was anything revealed that we didn't already know?
Most of the dialogue was just a way of all the characters going:
"You know we used to hate each other? Are we cool now?"
"Yeah, we cool"

There was a bit too much "telling not showing". We are constantly told that Sansa and Tyrion are super-clever, which seems a bit odd when they've been dismissed by everyone as a silly girl and a drunken dwarf for the last 7 seasons.

It's pretty shocking that they've only got 4 episodes to wrap everything up, and two of those are going to be mostly big battle scenes.
 

Deleted member 2809

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
25,478
If anything, ep 1 and 2 proved that Sansa is indeed not smart at all.
"hey dany we cool right, so what about.. AFTER THE WAR ?"
bruh, win the war in the first place maybe
 

steejee

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,646
The issue for me and for what I understand, Blackthorn too, is not these "chill" episodes, they are cool and add a lot to the characters, but the problem is the time!
Going for these first two episodes, it seems like the series still has 10~15 episodes to go, but there are only 4 left!
For me it seems little time to resolve the battle against the dead AND who is going to sit on the Iron Throne.

Now to wait and see how they are going to it.

E1 and E2 were both roughly normal runtimes (~1hr)

The rest of S8 are all extended episodes:
S8E1: 54m
S8E2: 58m
S8E3: 1h22m
S8E4: 1h18m
S8E5: 1h20m
S8E6: 1h20m

At this point they don't really need to rush anything - no new characters are going to be introduced that matter, just maybe one or two like the Chieftan lady in Hardhome. There's only two locations of consequence left, everyone is in one of those two places, and what's left for the two main plot lines has a pretty clear path to the end. They're not going to be starting up any new major plots at this point, just wrapping up the existing ones.

In other words, four ~1h20m episodes seem like a good amount of time to bring the show to a close.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,510
If anything, ep 1 and 2 proved that Sansa is indeed not smart at all.
"hey dany we cool right, so what about.. AFTER THE WAR ?"
bruh, win the war in the first place maybe
It's a valid question though. They're probably going to die anyway so why not ask what would happen if they win?
I'm glad she asked to test Dany's response.
 

Crossing Eden

Member
Oct 26, 2017
53,421
The issue for me and for what I understand, Blackthorn too, is not these "chill" episodes, they are cool and add a lot to the characters, but the problem is the time!
Going for these first two episodes, it seems like the series still has 10~15 episodes to go, but there are only 4 left!
For me it seems little time to resolve the battle against the dead AND who is going to sit on the Iron Throne.

Now to wait and see how they are going to it.
I mean, the last four episodes are all extended.
 
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