Game of Thrones S8 |OT2| Please do not post spoilers here - assume all episodes have been leaked - spoiler tag all future episode speculation
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The Leftovers weakest season, season 1, was based on the only book. Season 2 and 3, some of the best seasons Television has ever witnessed, was all original content.
As I've already said, I don't think it's because it was rushed. They could have started her turn back in season 6 but chose to wait until they absolutely couldn't avoid it anymore. If they had more episodes/seasons they would have waited until the very end still. They care more about what the fans think than the story.
Pretty obvious that Arya is being set up to be the one that sees the horrors of what Danny has done and is willing and capable of doing something about it.
It's rushed anyway, but probably on top of that they think "shock twists" are great storytelling "because Red Wedding", so now they just have told any kind of character development and logic to piss off and let the shock twists reign.
Well, at least I got this out of this episode
Yeah beautifully shot
It was my Dark Souls fantasy match that I fucking wanted. I was satisfied with this fightWell, at least I got this out of this episode
Didn't hate this episode. Read some of the comments immediately after on this thread and think people are being a bit hysterical with the 'worst how ever' / 'worse than Lost' takes but the show has definitely become more 'hollywood' than 'HBO.'
My problem is pace. This season is going too fast. I can buy Danys turn and it's been foreshadowed but I would have liked more. It's Grey Worm I don't really buy, he seems to have become the mad soldier far more quickly. Understandable as he lost Missandei but still.
What's sitting with me now is that Jon and Arya are our POVs and I wonder how intentional that is. I think I was interesting for this to be the episode that takes the time to show the horrors of war on the common people and to see that through the lens of people who haven't really been in a situation like this before. Jon's only real 'battle' I can recall offhand is BotB which was largely army against army as opposed to it having the potential for civilians to be killed en masse. The same goes for the murder of the soldiers who threw down their swords.
I think these scenes will anchor Jon as someone almost wholly averse to war as a potential King. Not that anyone is a fan but I think this was an attempt by the show to strip any glory from the idea of war.
Arya much the same. I'm not sure why the show felt the need to turn her into a scared, vulnerable person twice this season. Though, her trying to help people was good. She's got a lot more humanity that I thought she'd have given the House of the Undying training but I guess that was the point in her taking her name back and fucking off.
Will be glad for the show to be over next week, have felt a bit exhausted and disappointed with it. Not because of any decision, I think the direction is fine in a cliff-notes view but, as I said before, the pacing feels off. I also don't like how prophecies have been shit out of the window and how Essos and the Iron Bank doesn't appear to matter.
Also the Golden Company being a bunch of chumps to get immediately murdered was a bit shit.
Roll on next week, Arya to be the murderer of the song of Ice (Night King) and fire (Dragon Queen) would be funny.
My problem is pace. This season is going too fast. I can buy Danys turn and it's been foreshadowed but I would have liked more. It's Grey Worm I don't really buy, he seems to have become the mad soldier far more quickly. Understandable as he lost Missandei but still.
What's sitting with me now is that Jon and Arya are our POVs and I wonder how intentional that is. I think I was interesting for this to be the episode that takes the time to show the horrors of war on the common people and to see that through the lens of people who haven't really been in a situation like this before. Jon's only real 'battle' I can recall offhand is BotB which was largely army against army as opposed to it having the potential for civilians to be killed en masse. The same goes for the murder of the soldiers who threw down their swords.
I think these scenes will anchor Jon as someone almost wholly averse to war as a potential King. Not that anyone is a fan but I think this was an attempt by the show to strip any glory from the idea of war.
Arya much the same. I'm not sure why the show felt the need to turn her into a scared, vulnerable person twice this season. Though, her trying to help people was good. She's got a lot more humanity that I thought she'd have given the House of the Undying training but I guess that was the point in her taking her name back and fucking off.
Will be glad for the show to be over next week, have felt a bit exhausted and disappointed with it. Not because of any decision, I think the direction is fine in a cliff-notes view but, as I said before, the pacing feels off. I also don't like how prophecies have been shit out of the window and how Essos and the Iron Bank doesn't appear to matter.
Also the Golden Company being a bunch of chumps to get immediately murdered was a bit shit.
Roll on next week, Arya to be the murderer of the song of Ice (Night King) and fire (Dragon Queen) would be funny.
When people forget you three episodes later.
Should have been the winner, the only one who would have brought peace to the world.
When watching I was like: Yeah, they are on steps, the perfect setup when the Mountain inevitably falls down, losing his armor that way and now at least a bit more vulnerable and in general a good fight scene. Nope, just 2 dudes smacking and screaming until the writers show some mercy and write them both out.Well, at least I got this out of this episode
Yeah like I said I can see their attempts to justify her turn. But I'm assuming Dany turning mad and burning Kings Landing is part of the ending GRRM told them years ago and they could have done a much better job of building her character to sell the idea that she'd massacre a city that has surrendered. I'd believe her doing anything to win. I'd believe her killing bad people or an army even if they surrender. But thousands of women and children after she's won? The show hasn't done the work with her character to make that feel fully authentic, and her being wary of a trap after the bells have rung is too loose of a justification to do much for me.
Dany burnt the civilians to send a message after realising she had no true allies or friends remaining. I think it was a 'fuck you, fear me' kind of thing. I'm still not on board with its execution, although I can accept it at this point. I definitely believe it's happening in the books.
Agree with every word. The events of the episode itself aren't the problem, but when Dany started burning people alive it felt like unearned bullshit because the show just didn't make us believe in her descent nearly well enough. But I have no doubt GRRM ends up in roughly the same spot.
None of that makes it okay to kill hundreds or thousands of innocent people. She specifically decided she would scare people into submission.
I agree with that. I have said it many times at this point, but the books will have the same ending more or less. The destination will be the same, but how we get there will be different. The books will be able to properly set up all of this. The books will have all of the details and context that the show is severely lacking in.
GRRM always said the ending would be bittersweet ending. We got the bitter part. Now we have to wait and see what the sweet part is.
Tormund and Ghost are living a blessed life up North away from this mess.
Jon doesn't know what he is missing, daft bastard.
Jon doesn't know what he is missing, daft bastard.
Yeah that was the dumbest thing. They could've added a scene where like the citizens of KL try to throw spears/rocks at Drogon and she gets pissed or something ... but not even that, lol.
She literally HAS WON and then decides it's time to go crazy.
So we as viewers know their fate but is Daenerys just going to let go of wanting Cersei dead based on the assumption that she didnt survive the destruction around her? Obvioulsy Dany should have taken the oppurtunity to murder her personally but even after not doing so wouldnt she want to at least confirm Cersei is dead? Did I miss a line of dialogue?
Yeah I wouldn't be surprised if it's a mix of both tbh. They were probably like "we don't want all the Khalissi parents to be mad until we absolutely have to... but boy oh boy will they be shocked when we hit them with it!"
Rob and Ned Stark are portrayed as inspiring most of the time, then they die like fools. I don't think it's neccessarily a problem that characters are not just how they present.
Dany's turn made sense to me, she always left chaos behind, and I'm not completey surpised she basically dropped a bomb and didn't give Cersei a chance to surrender, when she already betrayed her word by not sending troops for the great war. It reminds a bit of Harvet Dent in the dark knight, he starts by killing the corrupt and then chaos takes control.
And I don't agree with all general hero worship she got when she's locking people in vaults when her dragons were out of control and burned a child, and exiled Jorah because of a raven her rival King sent, she always had potential to be needlessly cruel and unreasonable and her two best friends died and two of her children died, her mercy and passion was more than compromised.
The sweet part is the massive Disney cheques D&D will cash riding on Martin's coat tails for 8 years.
Tormund will be riding his way south now Brienne is single again
Please no more arya masterfully killing people in one move. Im pretty sure arya is done with all of that thanks to the hound anyway
Jon has seen for himself. He will not stand by and watch Dany be a tyrant
I think we're done with sansa and arya
Certainly done with bran
I loved it, it's not flawless. But it's my favourite of the season.
Lmao
... i honestly thought this was incredible
there is no good guys in war, only fucking death and madness
there is no good guys in war, only fucking death and madness
I think that was one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. It was late season Heroes levels of bad.
Scorpions are heat-seeking missiles and Euron is unstoppable. Until he's not. Your stab in the gut is deadly buy my 2 stabs in the gut are fine.
How much dialogue was in this episode?
The worst thing about it is I no longer care what happens next week. Who here still cares what happens next episode? Maybe your favourite character dies, maybe they live, what does it matter? It's all nonsensical garbage decided on a coin toss anyway.
Scorpions are heat-seeking missiles and Euron is unstoppable. Until he's not. Your stab in the gut is deadly buy my 2 stabs in the gut are fine.
How much dialogue was in this episode?
The worst thing about it is I no longer care what happens next week. Who here still cares what happens next episode? Maybe your favourite character dies, maybe they live, what does it matter? It's all nonsensical garbage decided on a coin toss anyway.
I originally had this thread ignored because despite my own major grievances with the show I don't really like engaging with the ResetEra GoT community, but I unblocked so I could, and it will say this; I liked the episode and I had fun.
Nothing will ever undo the disappointing character trajectories (namely Jamie) and the rushed narrative arcs. Nor the sloppy writing. But, and I said this a couple of episodes back, I long reconciled with these issues literally like...two or three seasons ago. And even with some of those disappointments still seeping through, I'm having plenty of fun enjoying the show for what it is.
Miguel Sapochnik is an absolutely outstanding director and every episode he touches is beautifully shot, paced, and cut in ways that almost if not no other director on the series has captured. But I'm also firmly in the park that Episode 3 was excellent too. Everything he has touched in Game of Thrones is just remarkably distinct and beautiful.
So yeah. That's how I feel. Enjoyed the shit out of it, goofy warts and all, and rushed arcs. I didn't consider it a straight up bad episode in the same way that Episode 4 was, because despite rushing to conclusion of character arcs that should have been paced across a few episodes even if they were telegraphed, I didn't feel the episode was rushed in its story. Not like Episode 4, which was a fucking mess.
Dany stans have been fucking cooked in the head for a long time now and even though her character arc has been disappointingly rushed in the endgame, I get some sick satisfaction seeing people pissed off at her being her. Narratively needed a lot more justification, but people putting their chips on a power hungry quasi tyrant who oozed entitlement from day one just because she's the soft chosen one who frees slaves are out of their fucking mind. The most basic, cliche lesson this entire series has beat across the head for a long, long, long time now including from GRRMs older work is that power corrupts, the throne is a bastard, entitlement is poison, and those truly lost to the allure of ruling will do whatever they feel they need to do, irrational or otherwise, to make it their claim. Dany has routinely demonstrated a lack of patience for insubordination, and an isolated delusion of entitlement and grandeur. There's a lot of good in her. She's also a tyrant, because monarchies, of which she is quite comfortable reinstalling, are inherently built on grotesque entitlement.
But yes. Really enjoyed the episode. Had a lot of fun. Will stop being a sook and keep this thread unblocked.
EDIT: I think the big issue I have with some of the criticisms is not those disappointed in the weakened exposition and development that has hindered the plot as a whole, but the silly romtanticisation of characters and armies.
"The North are the good guys! They wouldn't do that!"
Why? There's no evidence anywhere to suggest the sacking of a city by the North wouldn't play out like it always does, and has, including throughout our own history, and in modern warfare. The notion that there's some unified purity and goodness within the entirety of the North, that has otherwise been at direct war with the South for several season now, is just absurd.
"The Unsullied wouldn't do that either!"
Why? The Unsullied follow only one specific command; that of the Queen. If the Queen attacks, which she did first, they follow. They do not question orders. They've never questioned orders. They are built exclusively, entirely around the concept of complete loyalty and devotion to the will of their leader.
"And the Dothraki wou-"
The Dothraki who are grown in a strict hierarchic culture of strength, where overpowering the lesser and weak is common, and sympathy is not granted to your enemy. They stood and mocked the futility of the Lannester army in the last season, enjoy the enormous power imbalance. They do not care.
Nothing will ever undo the disappointing character trajectories (namely Jamie) and the rushed narrative arcs. Nor the sloppy writing. But, and I said this a couple of episodes back, I long reconciled with these issues literally like...two or three seasons ago. And even with some of those disappointments still seeping through, I'm having plenty of fun enjoying the show for what it is.
Miguel Sapochnik is an absolutely outstanding director and every episode he touches is beautifully shot, paced, and cut in ways that almost if not no other director on the series has captured. But I'm also firmly in the park that Episode 3 was excellent too. Everything he has touched in Game of Thrones is just remarkably distinct and beautiful.
So yeah. That's how I feel. Enjoyed the shit out of it, goofy warts and all, and rushed arcs. I didn't consider it a straight up bad episode in the same way that Episode 4 was, because despite rushing to conclusion of character arcs that should have been paced across a few episodes even if they were telegraphed, I didn't feel the episode was rushed in its story. Not like Episode 4, which was a fucking mess.
Dany stans have been fucking cooked in the head for a long time now and even though her character arc has been disappointingly rushed in the endgame, I get some sick satisfaction seeing people pissed off at her being her. Narratively needed a lot more justification, but people putting their chips on a power hungry quasi tyrant who oozed entitlement from day one just because she's the soft chosen one who frees slaves are out of their fucking mind. The most basic, cliche lesson this entire series has beat across the head for a long, long, long time now including from GRRMs older work is that power corrupts, the throne is a bastard, entitlement is poison, and those truly lost to the allure of ruling will do whatever they feel they need to do, irrational or otherwise, to make it their claim. Dany has routinely demonstrated a lack of patience for insubordination, and an isolated delusion of entitlement and grandeur. There's a lot of good in her. She's also a tyrant, because monarchies, of which she is quite comfortable reinstalling, are inherently built on grotesque entitlement.
But yes. Really enjoyed the episode. Had a lot of fun. Will stop being a sook and keep this thread unblocked.
EDIT: I think the big issue I have with some of the criticisms is not those disappointed in the weakened exposition and development that has hindered the plot as a whole, but the silly romtanticisation of characters and armies.
"The North are the good guys! They wouldn't do that!"
Why? There's no evidence anywhere to suggest the sacking of a city by the North wouldn't play out like it always does, and has, including throughout our own history, and in modern warfare. The notion that there's some unified purity and goodness within the entirety of the North, that has otherwise been at direct war with the South for several season now, is just absurd.
"The Unsullied wouldn't do that either!"
Why? The Unsullied follow only one specific command; that of the Queen. If the Queen attacks, which she did first, they follow. They do not question orders. They've never questioned orders. They are built exclusively, entirely around the concept of complete loyalty and devotion to the will of their leader.
"And the Dothraki wou-"
The Dothraki who are grown in a strict hierarchic culture of strength, where overpowering the lesser and weak is common, and sympathy is not granted to your enemy. They stood and mocked the futility of the Lannester army in the last season, enjoy the enormous power imbalance. They do not care.
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genious spymaster advocates treason and implied regicide in front of dozens of witnesses because fuck it we gotta wrap this shit up in six episodes for very good reasons
Personnel**
One small thing that made me smile was Cersei almost politely excusing herself from the Cleganebowl
"Well, we thought seeing Kings Landing up in flames would make the viewer go "wow, sweet!", and have a positive reaction."
"Had we been aware they would be bitter about that, we would have just called the ending "extremely bitter", but what can you do!"
Out of all the valid criticisms of Game of Thrones, the narrative that "D&D don't give a fuck anymore because Disney money" is by far the most persistently untrue, and is quite frankly offensive to me and people in creative industries.
It completely neglects the collaborative nature of television production, the logistics of scheduling, and the struggles of limited money and time. But most importantly it ignores the fact that these two people are industry professionals, and like any professional, would put their best effort in to try to make whatever creative project they are working on a success, not just for the project itself but for their own sake and reputation.
I've worked as an actor on some bad projects. But I still put my all in because doing a good job matters. D&D wouldn't be in the position they are in today if they just half-assed their way through their work. They are doing the best they can.
This is a show where everyone has done evil shit. The "cute heroine" (Arya) literally baked men into meat pies and served them to other people to eat, and she's a "hero". Jon Snow executed a child. Ned Stark beheaded a man for telling the truth even though he probably could've him a pardon. Sister-fucking attempted child-murderer Jamie had a redemption arc going.
In the grand scheme of the "world" GRRM has created, Dany's "conquest" from Essos to King's Landing is likely probably the most peaceful one with the least civilian casualties until she decides "fuck it, the last episodes needs a new villain now that Cersei is dead, time to go bat shit insane".
In the books, Dany's turn will be, and has already started to be, properly built up. Her ADwD storyline will be crucial for her pivot, and is probably the turning point.
Her chapters in ADwD are about her being torn between diplomacy and violence, and ultimately choosing diplomacy. They are frustrating to read because she is in a frustrating situation where she is in the dark about the actual effects of her decisions, and we are meant to share her frustration and uncertainty.
The ultimate tragedy of her arc in this book is that her softer kinder approach actually probably works. But she never gets to see that it does. Then Drogon comes in and fucks everything up and she has to leave. And her advisors fuck everything up in her absence. In the end, she takes the wrong lesson from her experience. She thinks that diplomacy didn't work and she resolves to go full fire and blood in the future. In actuality, it probably did work, and things start crumbling in her absence when her advisors instead choose violence.
Her experience in Mereen is important to set her on the mad queen path. And the beauty and tragedy of it all is that it didn't have to be that way, because the path her kinder instincts took her down would have worked
But in the show, they just glossed all over her Mereen story because "too many characters, viewers will be confused" and "gotta go fast" i guess
Her chapters in ADwD are about her being torn between diplomacy and violence, and ultimately choosing diplomacy. They are frustrating to read because she is in a frustrating situation where she is in the dark about the actual effects of her decisions, and we are meant to share her frustration and uncertainty.
The ultimate tragedy of her arc in this book is that her softer kinder approach actually probably works. But she never gets to see that it does. Then Drogon comes in and fucks everything up and she has to leave. And her advisors fuck everything up in her absence. In the end, she takes the wrong lesson from her experience. She thinks that diplomacy didn't work and she resolves to go full fire and blood in the future. In actuality, it probably did work, and things start crumbling in her absence when her advisors instead choose violence.
Her experience in Mereen is important to set her on the mad queen path. And the beauty and tragedy of it all is that it didn't have to be that way, because the path her kinder instincts took her down would have worked
But in the show, they just glossed all over her Mereen story because "too many characters, viewers will be confused" and "gotta go fast" i guess
Me too. Kept my expectations in check and didn't really get into theories
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