UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
But you're agreeing with me.

I think Bran gets elected. I'm more doubtful of the succession system implemented after that.

I think the implication there is that eventually Westeros does eventually adopt democracy in choosing government/rulers (Sam saying that wasn't just a random thing dropped into the script).

So basically what you're seeing the beginning of the end of the monarch/noble age of Westeros and the dawn of a new era.

Just like in LOTR, the ending is not just "Sauron dead, good guys win", there's an implied longer term ending that actually the "world" of Middle Earth becomes eventually Europe and the hobbits become the British (I guess? lol).

In both cases the elements of "fantasy" (like giants, trolls, white walkers, dragons, etc.) will eventually also be lost to time and become folklore.
 

teacup

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
686
I think yes but by the time they got to the last season it was not possible at that point. It wasn't just his death that frustrated people it was also the lead up and just utter ignoring of any real story or themes around him.

ultimately other than a few hints when Brian was training years back, the night kings character is about as fleshed out as a zombie from the walking dead.
 

Kahoots

Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,001
Ehhh ... I don't think so. The entire Arya arc is one of "fuck being a noble woman that sits around raising little lords and ladies".
And you would be wrong, that's a D&D level of understanding which is why they had her sailing off into the sunset. That's not even an arc, that's a trajectory. The arc is wilful rebel learns the importance of duty. It is to contrast Cersei, who did not do her duty and caused the (obviously not solely responsible) TWOT5Ks, and it is to contrast Lyanna, who ran away with her love and caused Robert's rebellion. It will culminate in Arya having to choose between marrying where her lord Jon tells her for the good of the realm or chasing her own love. It ends when Jon and most everyone else dies in service of the realm (the shadows all around her and Sansa in Bran's vision, everyone in their lives will die before the end). If all those would sacrifice their life for the realm, Arya will sacrifice her freedom.

Its why the whole Faceless Men thing exists. So that she can choose to be no-one and have all those freedoms, or sacrifice them and take the place of Arya Stark to bring peace to the realm.
 

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,684
I can see Arya getting a similar ending to Jon, where she ends up the "penitent wanderer", roaming the earth trying to atone for her self-perceived sins (possibly stuck wearing Mercy's face, which some people have theorised)
 

Pyccko

"This guy are sick"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,900
Have the dead win, killing all humans and when the NK sits on the iron throne, BAM, dragonglass thumbtack right in the seat. Shot of dead frozen planet, fade to black.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
And you would be wrong, that's a D&D level of understanding which is why they had her sailing off into the sunset. That's not even an arc, that's a trajectory. The arc is wilful rebel learns the importance of duty. It is to contrast Cersei, who did not do her duty and caused the (obviously not solely responsible) TWOT5Ks, and it is to contrast Lyanna, who ran away with her love and caused Robert's rebellion. It will culminate in Arya having to choose between marrying where her lord Jon tells her for the good of the realm or chasing her own love. It ends when Jon and most everyone else dies in service of the realm (the shadows all around her and Sansa in Bran's vision, everyone in their lives will die before the end). If all those would sacrifice their life for the realm, Arya will sacrifice her freedom.

Its why the whole Faceless Men thing exists. So that she can choose to be no-one and have all those freedoms, or sacrifice them and take the place of Arya Stark to bring peace to the realm.

Like I said you can argue it. I just don't think D&D pulled that out of their ass.

If they had their way, she and Gendry would've had a steamy fuck scene after killing the Night King and become a couple, 110%.

That ending is George's ending just like pretty much all of what happens. It's also a very clear homage to Lord of the Rings (Frodo sailing off an ship), which again I think is all George, D&D don't give a shit about that stuff.

It just is told in a very haphazard and shitty way by D&D and completely rushed. Which should be a good lesson to people, it doesn't even matter what your "plot points" are if you don't properly build up to them and execute them.

Anakin Skywalker falling to the dark side by becoming obsessed with learning the power to control life/death, is pretty dramatic on paper. Didn't mean shit in the prequels because the execution was dog shit.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
From A Clash of Kings (book):

"Let the three of you call for a Great Council, such as the realm has not seen for a hundred years. We will send to Winterfell, so Bran may tell his tale and all men may know the Lannisters for the true usurpers. Let the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms choose who shall rule them."

Uh ... yeah. That council shit is 100% happening.
 

Kahoots

Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,001
Like I said you can argue it. I just don't think D&D pulled that out of their ass.

If they had their way, she and Gendry would've had a steamy fuck scene after killing the Night King and become a couple, 110%.

That ending is George's ending just like pretty much all of what happens. It's also a very clear homage to Lord of the Rings (Frodo sailing off an ship), which again I think is all George, D&D don't give a shit about that stuff.

It just is told in a very haphazard and shitty way by D&D and completely rushed. Which should be a good lesson to people, it doesn't even matter what your "plot points" are if you don't properly build up to them and execute them.

Anakin Skywalker falling to the dark side by becoming obsessed with learning the power to control life/death, is pretty dramatic on paper. Didn't mean shit in the prequels because the execution was dog shit.
Arya's arc is in service to the theme that the highborn must sacrifice love for duty or their people suffer. D&D don't care about theme and wouldn't entertain the idea of turning their go girl power ass kicking child assassin into a home-maker for anything, much less a theme. Maybe they said we aren't going to do that and GRRM said well make her sail off into the sunset or something, whatever, her show ending will be nothing to do with the books.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Arya's arc is in service to the theme that the highborn must sacrifice love for duty or their people suffer. D&D don't care about theme and wouldn't entertain the idea of turning their go girl power ass kicking child assassin into a home-maker for anything, much less a theme. Maybe they said we aren't going to do that and GRRM said well make her sail off into the sunset or something, whatever, her show ending will be nothing to do with the books.

I think you're wrong on that. That is the ending, but it will be better explored and fleshed out and there's gonna some crazy shit Arya discovers on her adventures.

If the plan was she hooks up with Gendry, there's no way D&D wouldn't have done that. That's exactly what they would want.

"She sails off on a boat like fucking Frodo" ain't the D&D ending, lol, I'm pretty sure of it.

There's also a meta-commentary going on in the story that I don't think people pick up on -- this isn't some random age in the world of GRRM. This is the age of the end of magic. After these events, dragons will be gone (the last one flies off with Dany's body), the giants are gone, dire wolves gone, the magic of the wall will be broken, the white walkers are gone, the children of the Forest will fade away, all these things will pass into legend. Arya isn't "sailing away" so much as she's going to some hypothetical place where that magic still exists, the world she's leaving behind is moving past that.
 
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ItchyTasty

Member
Feb 3, 2019
5,911
One season to end the night king arc and then one more for Kingslanding.

No matter what they might've done differently it shouldn't been done in one episode.
 

Kahoots

Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,001
I think you're wrong on that. That is the ending, but it will be better explored and fleshed out and there's gonna some crazy shit Arya discovers on her adventures.

If the plan was she hooks up with Gendry, there's no way D&D wouldn't have done that. That's exactly what they would want.

"She sails off on a boat like fucking Frodo" ain't the D&D ending, lol, I'm pretty sure of it.
She will love Gendry (and hook up once) but Jon will make her marry someone else, for the good of the realm. And so she will have to choose between her love of Gendry or to do her duty for the good of the realm. This theme is woven through her arc (Her parents marrying for duty, Lady Smallwood). It is woven through ASOIAF history (Black Betha) with pointers to Arya.

D&D took the hook up and none of the theme associated with it, as they are wont to do.
 

Madison

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,388
Lima, Peru
Arya sailing away is a possibility but the whole "whats West of Westeros" shit is 100% not a GRRM idea. That line is so stupid it makes my brain hurt
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
She will love Gendry (and hook up once) but Jon will make her marry someone else, for the good of the realm. And so she will have to choose between her love of Gendry or to do her duty for the good of the realm. This theme is woven through her arc (Her parents marrying for duty, Lady Smallwood). It is woven through ASOIAF history (Black Betha) with pointers to Arya.

D&D took the hook up and none of the theme associated with it, as they are wont to do.

We'll see. I doubt it.

The Frodo/Tolkien homage is 100% GRRM too. D&D would never do that.

It's gonna be hard for people to accept, but GRRM really did tell D&D his ending, and they basically did do it.

That doesn't mean shit for satisfying endings though because any story point is all about *execution* not necessarily about what actually happens.

Storytelling is not just throwing out events in sequence and saying "well that's what happened, now get the fuck outta here, bye". There's obviously an art to it, and that's where D&D's highly compressed "rush to the finish line" ending didn't work even if it is the ending given to them by GRRM.
 
Oct 27, 2017
410
Jon being exiled likely isn't in the book. I would think he's elected by the great council, and abdicates himself and rejects the throne / his targ (and Stark) namesake and chooses to live a free man beyond the wall with his adopted people. Maybe after making one important decision or declaration..

It works thematically a lot better, and his succession and choice as king makes far more sense than randomly agreeing on Bran Without prompting. He would be seen as a unifying choice (Stark, Targ, one of the leaders against the WW, or even messianic if people know he's returned from dead, with relatives in river lands and Vale). The unsullied will have no input there. I think the writers just didn't see a way to make that work with Grey Worm being a "character" holding Jon prisoner.

To the OP - as someone who forgives a lot of the show's misteps due to the sheer logistics and scope of what they were doing - yes, there was a way better way to wrap up the NK story. Even keeping with what they wanted to do. I can see how they wanted to give Arya some sort of payoff for her side-story assassin training.
 

UltraMagnus

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
15,670
Jon being exiled likely isn't in the book. I would think he's elected by the great council, and abdicates himself and rejects the throne / his targ (and Stark) namesake and chooses to live a free man beyond the wall with his adopted people. Maybe after making one important decision or declaration..

It works thematically a lot better, and his succession and choice as king makes far more sense than randomly agreeing on Bran Without prompting. He would be seen as a unifying choice (Stark, Targ, one of the leaders against the WW, or even messianic if people know he's returned from dead, with relatives in river lands and Vale). The unsullied will have no input there. I think the writers just didn't see a way to make that work with Grey Worm being a "character" holding Jon prisoner.

To the OP - as someone who forgives a lot of the show's misteps due to the sheer logistics and scope of what they were doing - yes, there was a way better way to wrap up the NK story. Even keeping with what they wanted to do. I can see how they wanted to give Arya some sort of payoff for her side-story assassin training.

He's not gonna get to kill Dany and then get to choose whatever he wants. Being exiled will be his penance.
 

Deleted member 57578

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 7, 2019
283
The Night King should have won, because that's what would happen. The only thing that defeats winter is summer itself. The scheming of humans is irrelevant compared to the forces of nature.

The last scene of Game of Thrones should have been people looking back on Westeros from the bow of the ships carrying them into exile. People would return a generation later after the Long Night ended, and perhaps it would be revealed by the plot whisperer himself, Bran, that the first men had done the same thing 8,000 years ago during the previous Long Night.
 
Oct 27, 2017
410
He's not gonna get to kill Dany and then get to choose whatever he wants. Being exiled will be his penance.
We shall see (well, hopefully). If Dany burns down Kings Landing, is that really an unpopular move? Or will they know he did it? Will the north, river lands, vale, iron islands (maybe), crownlands, and storm lands feel same way? Lots of ways around it.

Especially considering Faegon is not even in the show but will be a factor (major) in books - and likely will be revered Despite being an obvious blackfyre or fake. Dany won't be a hero to the small folk. [[
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,722
He should've been the end boss. All of Westeros destroyed and even thought they beat him, they still kinda lose and have to rebuild. A FF6 type of ending. A Jon vs NK ending fight with some time travel shenanigans from Bran to help beat him. IDK, anything was better than what we got. Literally anything.

Yup. Westeros is a corrupt system (what's in a name?) and needs to be destroyed. Even IF they had managed to somehow pull off Dany seeing that and going apeshit, in the context of the show (and it being television) such a literary theme doesn't work, and we needed the visual version of it with our glorious villain (NK) making it all the way to the end, only to get ninja'd then, leaving a, and I fucking quote. "Bittersweet" ending.

It is such a frustrating series of decisions to look back on.

That said, at least we got Miguel Sapochnik's superior take on some of it, because without that it would be worse. Hell, I think Arya killing NK is actually a good decision, but the 'surprise you' to the viewer is immediately followed by a 'fuck you' by having that the end of all of it, and just the temporary defeat. One of the white walkers should have taken over the horde right after that, with the rules of "magic" having changed, or something like that. But to go full 'shoot the core!' and then just proceed with some clear bullshit is just... urgh.

Within television as a medium, they were always going to be the endgame (look at the soundtrack, and the very first scene of the series), but then *nope*.
Blergh, whatever. It's done. Leave it up to better people to make a topical relevant comparison of a corrupt world having to deal with global warming.
(so the worst part here is that they could have made something for the ages, literally...)
 

Hail Satan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,171
Of course!

shit, even what they gave us could have been an incredible ending. The problem was the execution.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
She will love Gendry (and hook up once) but Jon will make her marry someone else, for the good of the realm. And so she will have to choose between her love of Gendry or to do her duty for the good of the realm. This theme is woven through her arc (Her parents marrying for duty, Lady Smallwood). It is woven through ASOIAF history (Black Betha) with pointers to Arya.

D&D took the hook up and none of the theme associated with it, as they are wont to do.

Eeeeh. I doubt it. I could see this as valid if Arya wasn't 11 in the books.

He's not gonna get to kill Dany and then get to choose whatever he wants. Being exiled will be his penance.


Jon being exiled likely isn't in the book. I would think he's elected by the great council, and abdicates himself and rejects the throne / his targ (and Stark) namesake and chooses to live a free man beyond the wall with his adopted people. Maybe after making one important decision or declaration..

It works thematically a lot better, and his succession and choice as king makes far more sense than randomly agreeing on Bran Without prompting. He would be seen as a unifying choice (Stark, Targ, one of the leaders against the WW, or even messianic if people know he's returned from dead, with relatives in river lands and Vale). The unsullied will have no input there. I think the writers just didn't see a way to make that work with Grey Worm being a "character" holding Jon prisoner.

To the OP - as someone who forgives a lot of the show's misteps due to the sheer logistics and scope of what they were doing - yes, there was a way better way to wrap up the NK story. Even keeping with what they wanted to do. I can see how they wanted to give Arya some sort of payoff for her side-story assassin training.

I will say there is foreshadowing in book 1 and 2 for Jon to decline the throne and might have been GRRM's initial idea until he decided that Bran exiling him works better post book 2.



The queen stood. "And what of my wrath, Lord Stark?" she asked softly. Her eyes searched his face. "You should have taken the realm for yourself. It was there for the taking. Jaime told me how you found him on the Iron Throne the day King's Landing fell, and made him yield it up. That was your moment. All you needed to do was climb those steps, and sit. Such a sad mistake."

"I have made more mistakes than you can possibly imagine," Ned said, "but that was not one of them
."



Jon was not entirely innocent of the history of the realm; his own maester had seen to that. "That was the year of the Great Council," he said. "The lords passed over Prince Aerion's infant son and Prince Daeron's daughter and gave the crown to Aegon."

"Yes and no. First they offered it, quietly, to Aemon. And quietly he refused. The gods meant for him to serve, not to rule, he told them. He had sworn a vow and would not break it, though the High Septon himself offered to absolve him. Well, no sane man wanted any blood of Aerion's on the throne, and Daeron's girl was a lackwit besides being female, so they had no choice but to turn to Aemon's younger brother—Aegon, the Fifth of His Name. Aegon the Unlikely, they called him, born the fourth son of a fourth son. Aemon knew, and rightly, that if he remained at court those who disliked his brother's rule would seek to use him, so he came to the Wall. And here he has remained, while his brother and his brother's son and his son each reigned and died in turn, until Jaime Lannister put an end to the line of the Dragonkings."


I mean both might still happen where Jon declines the throne, Bran gets it and Bran exiles him but it's also something Jon is okay with at that point as he's grown disillusioned with Westeros.
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
Yup. Westeros is a corrupt system (what's in a name?) and needs to be destroyed. Even IF they had managed to somehow pull off Dany seeing that and going apeshit, in the context of the show (and it being television) such a literary theme doesn't work, and we needed the visual version of it with our glorious villain (NK) making it all the way to the end, only to get ninja'd then, leaving a, and I fucking quote. "Bittersweet" ending.

It is such a frustrating series of decisions to look back on.

That said, at least we got Miguel Sapochnik's superior take on some of it, because without that it would be worse. Hell, I think Arya killing NK is actually a good decision, but the 'surprise you' to the viewer is immediately followed by a 'fuck you' by having that the end of all of it, and just the temporary defeat. One of the white walkers should have taken over the horde right after that, with the rules of "magic" having changed, or something like that. But to go full 'shoot the core!' and then just proceed with some clear bullshit is just... urgh.

Within television as a medium, they were always going to be the endgame (look at the soundtrack, and the very first scene of the series), but then *nope*.
Blergh, whatever. It's done. Leave it up to better people to make a topical relevant comparison of a corrupt world having to deal with global warming.
(so the worst part here is that they could have made something for the ages, literally...)

I think people are missing what the story is saying. The White Walkers are Sauron and what happens afterward is the Scouring of the Shire.

Or in your terms, let's just say Arya beating the Others is humanity solving climate change. After that, the story is showing us what humans do. They go right back to dicking each other to exhaustion until they decide to talk it out instead.
 
Oct 26, 2017
12,125
Yes. Simple.

A. Wintergell preps, dragon queen and her army waiting.
B. The army of dead doesn't show.

C. Army of dead arrives in capital and sacks it.
D. Cersi gets turned into a wight
E. They panicking when they see the million + dead army. Tyrion tells them of the dragon fire buried somewhere under the capital. Only legit chance they have is a suicide assault on the capital before the army of dead leave it.
F. Suicide team:Tyrion smuggler handful of others sneak in as main living army starts to assault the city
G. Mostly everyone dies. Smuggler dies igniting the fire as Tyrion holds off the dead long enough for him to do it. Nukes the city.
H. Living army is down to 6% alive. Everything else in Western westeros is basically dead. Zombies everywhere walkers roaming. Night King dead.

I. Golden company arrives sees how fucked everything is, take survivors back across the sea.
J. Westeros becomes the new Valeria. Arya dies but warhs into her dog.
K. John refuses to leave, small banned of survives looking for anyone else alive, killing dead.
L. Danny and drogon leave. Nothing left in westeros
 
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Kahoots

Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,001
Eeeeh. I doubt it. I could see this as valid if Arya wasn't 11 in the books.
It's the whole reason Gendry even exists. He turns dark when he finds out she's highborn because of the implication. They have what reads as a lover's tiff, he tells her he might go fuck someone else and she tries to convince herself she doesn't care.

When they're with their child crew Gendry tries to convince Arya to ditch them because they're a burden and will get them killed, Arya bravely says no. Gendry is now living with a bunch of children, protecting and caring for them. He has changed due to her influence, he is becoming what she desires. Arya flatly says she could never love a coward.

The symbolism for their matching runs deep. For one, when Arya considers returning to the BWB, as she likely will in future and where Gendry has conveniently ended up, she thinks she could be just like Wenda the White Fawn. A White Fawn for a Black stag (Baratheon sigil).
 

Lunar Wolf

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
16,237
Los Angeles
It's the whole reason Gendry even exists. He turns dark when he finds out she's highborn because of the implication. They have what reads as a lover's tiff, he tells her he might go fuck someone else and she tries to convince herself she doesn't care.

When they're with their child crew Gendry tries to convince Arya to ditch them because they're a burden and will get them killed, Arya bravely says no. Gendry is now living with a bunch of children, protecting and caring for them. He has changed due to her influence, he is becoming what she desires. Arya flatly says she could never love a coward.

The symbolism for their matching runs deep. For one, when Arya considers returning to the BWB, as she likely will in future and where Gendry has conveniently ended up, she thinks she could be just like Wenda the White Fawn. A White Fawn for a Black stag (Baratheon sigil).

But again, she's 11 years old. They're not gonna bang or get married by the end of the story sans giant timeskip.

I could see it implied they end up together only if a) Edric Storm becomes Lord Baratheon instead of Gendry (b) Gendry goes with her to adventure as wandering heroes.
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
Honestly?
No.
It's a thematic clash so harsh it makes no sense.

The White Walkers are a force of nature. Their entire point is that, unlike everybody else, they don't play politics, have no emotions and no reason.
Personalizing them is stupid.

You could either twist their premise into realpolitik-with-magical-entities (Children of the forest plot point, Three-Eyed Raven plot point, Timetravel plot point), but that's anime-style storytelling and would be jarring in GoT.

Or do a Hero's Battle and have whatever unsatisfying clusterfuck S08 was.

Or Downer Ending the entire thing in "Squabbling when existantial threats abound is a stupid game, and people who play stupid games win stupid prizes"

god, we had such high hopes for asoiaf.
 

Nappuccino

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,322
Yeah, but way more main characters would have had to die doing something productive for the fight to make it seem hard won. Think the end of Rogue One, but with the characters less isolated and dying on their own mini missions. More like the scene in Snowpiercer when Captain America leaves Tintin behind.
 

Calvarok

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,218
there was never a point where it would have made sense for the night king to be killed and then everyone be at peace and the story resolved. no matter if everyone came together at king's landing or not.
 

The Silver

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,790
Personalizing the Night King and not making Bran a robot but an active dude on a mission is one of the few big things I can see the show doing differently with what they had. Put the whole struggle into the context of it being an epic longstanding blood feud between Bran who's increasingly becoming more devious and the Night King who thinks he's delivering justice to the Bloodraven.

Bran has to be a major player, and it better justifies the decision to later make him king.