jesus sorry but that sounds terrible too
no matter what way they chose a good proportion of fans were bound to be disappointed either way they swinged
Game of Thrones: Was it possible to have a satisfying ending to the Night King Arc
- Thread starter CountAntonio
- Start date
jesus sorry but that sounds terrible too
no matter what way they chose a good proportion of fans were bound to be disappointed either way they swinged
Ice and Fire is primarily for the WW and Dragons according to GRRM.
They all reshape the world.
Arya killed the NK.
Bran helped eliminate the NK and became Westeros' God-King.
Jon killed Dany.
Tyrion is the one that got Bran elected and proposed the new form of government.
Dany eliminated slavery in Slavery's Bay, collected the Dothraki together, usurped the Lannisters, destroyed KL and helped fight the WW.
etc.
Jon killing Dany is the equivalent of Queen Elinor killing King Maegor.
Yes. He should have at least reached King's Landing and make Westeros really suffer. So the houses which are left are forced to team up. Ad a backstab in there from the Lannisters.
Jamie should have stayed with Brianne. It's obvious they liked each other for years.
Bran being king is oke, but give a little bit of build up to that. He can see the future, so he molds it kind of thing.
I don't know how the night king would get killed, but if you say winter is coming for 7 seasons, you don't end it within one night.
Jamie should have stayed with Brianne. It's obvious they liked each other for years.
Bran being king is oke, but give a little bit of build up to that. He can see the future, so he molds it kind of thing.
I don't know how the night king would get killed, but if you say winter is coming for 7 seasons, you don't end it within one night.
But Jon Ahai brings them all together, lol.
He is the central component that leads to the Night King's (Others) defeat and he is also the central component that leads to the breaking of the wheel.
He is the prince that in the end results in a world where White Walkers are gone forever and the "wheel" of tyrants is broken. He brings together Fire (Dany) and Ice (the North) and they agree to work together because they both love him.
He's the most important person in the history of Westeros/the broader world for that age.
It just doesn't happen in a sexy "hero's battle" kind of way. He accomplishes these things but is ultimately shamed for it and suffers tremendous anguish because of it. There's nothing sexy or "cool" about it. Which is also a good lesson for the reader.
Right in line with what GRRM would want.
It isn't a cliche IMO The evil overlord doesn't get a sword fight, he gets assassinated by a nimble young woman and the biggest bad guy dies before the endgame. Truth be told I like the idea of Arya killing him, but I wanted to see more or her struggle as she heads towards the gods wood. Jon distracting the dragon to help her would been cool. The battle scenes could have felt more connected. I would't have minded if they tied in Jaqen too, like if him and the god of many faces had some awareness of this. I always felt their climax in series 6 was kind of vague,
the difference is GRRM has a bucket load of time to wrap his story up in tv land you don't have that luxury actors get more expensive people want to move on people get burnt out hbo demands another season ASAP
GRRM hasn't released a book since the 1st season of the show IIRC so it's clearly getting difficult for him to wrap up as well
Here's my ending fight:
You have Jon snow flying the dragon then he see's the NK just waiting in a distance for dual. He goes there and gets off his dragon then out of no where the NK's dragon comes in and fucks up johns and kills it. Meanwhile Danny is protecting her army with her dragon so she is out of the picture.
Bran see's the dragon dead and somehow goes back in time and wargs into johns dragon. Then you have bran fighting the dragon while John is fighting the NK in an epic fiery dual. Meanwhile back at bran's body theon is protecting him from white walkers just going ham. Then the generals surround him and he fights for bran's life getting hit every which way but still powering through until John wins the duel killing all the white walkers. Then bran wargs out and sees theons dead body right by his feet.
You have Jon snow flying the dragon then he see's the NK just waiting in a distance for dual. He goes there and gets off his dragon then out of no where the NK's dragon comes in and fucks up johns and kills it. Meanwhile Danny is protecting her army with her dragon so she is out of the picture.
Bran see's the dragon dead and somehow goes back in time and wargs into johns dragon. Then you have bran fighting the dragon while John is fighting the NK in an epic fiery dual. Meanwhile back at bran's body theon is protecting him from white walkers just going ham. Then the generals surround him and he fights for bran's life getting hit every which way but still powering through until John wins the duel killing all the white walkers. Then bran wargs out and sees theons dead body right by his feet.
Also there are two pretty good fixes (I mean, as good as you can fix it without remaking half of the show)
-Have Theon kill the Nights King
-Have Jaime kill the Nights King:
The ending in the book 100% will have Jon stab Dany through the heart to bring forth political enlightenment that brings peace to Westeros, that stuff is central to what GRRM is trying to say, I don't think D&D made that part up at all.
None of that was necessary to beat them. What you actually needed was Bran and Arya. Jon was irrelevant. Dany and Jon's forces are just fodder.
I'd even argue that Bran is more important than Jon and he's the actual central role in the story as Westeros' God-King. the Memory of Man, the Last Greenseer and the last son of Eddard Stark.
Jon and Dany are parallel heroes.
Bran hovers over them in importance to the overall story despite Jon and Dany having more screentime.
Bran is the resolution to the story after all.
I find it wild that people are convinced there is ANY truth to the books' ending to be found in the show considering we know for a fact the show was originally going to end with Jorah surviving and accompanying Jon beyond the wall, because he'd be so down to chill with the dude who murdered the object of his stalking lmao
Not in the 13 or so episodes they finished hte series with.
You can talk shit about the pacing issues of the series, specifically with the final 2 seasons all you want. That was a legitimate issue. The story that was told from a A to B arc was fine, it just needed more time.and that's absolutely a fault of the showrunners for rushing the ending for whatever damn reason they had, as it certainly wasn't HBO's fault seeing as they would have preferred to run that show for at least 10 full seasons if not longer
You can talk shit about the pacing issues of the series, specifically with the final 2 seasons all you want. That was a legitimate issue. The story that was told from a A to B arc was fine, it just needed more time.and that's absolutely a fault of the showrunners for rushing the ending for whatever damn reason they had, as it certainly wasn't HBO's fault seeing as they would have preferred to run that show for at least 10 full seasons if not longer
None of that was necessary to beat them. What you actually needed was Bran and Arya. Jon was irrelevant. Dany and Jon's forces are just fodder.
I'd even argue that Bran is more important than Jon and he's the actual central role in the story as Westeros' God-King. the Memory of Man, the Last Greenseer and the last son of Eddard Stark.
Jon and Dany are parallel heroes.
Bran hovers over them in importance to the overall story despite Jon and Dany having more screentime.
Bran is the resolution to the story after all.
Well I mean they just had Arya do it because "subversion", ultimately in the books and show the bigger picture is likely to be "the Others" lose and they lose because Jon brings together Fire (Dany) and Ice (the North). And he's the only person capable of doing that.
It doesn't really matter who lands the "killing blow", there won't be one in the books anyway since there isn't a "Night King" any how. It's who brought everyone together? Jon will likely in the books as well.
The other point GRRM is making about prophecy also probably lines up with his bigger picture thematic point for GoT -- those who lust after power are ultimately in the "wrong".
Melssiandre seizes on the prophecy thinking she can be a kingmaker, but she is wrong.
Stannis seizes on the prophecy and lusts after the idea, be he is wrong.
Dany seizes on herself being a messianic, prophetic figure but she is wrong too.
Jon is the only one who not only doesn't give a shit about the prophecy, but wouldn't want it at all. Those who ascribe special destiny to themselves are ultimately unworthy.
Which again lines up with GRRM's bigger theme here that those who don't want power, who don't lust after it, are the ones best suited for it. Jon doesn't want to be Azor Ahai, Bran never sought out to be King.
It's also a trope common to Tolkien ... the one who doesn't lust for any power whatsoever is the one most worthy of it (Frodo is the Ring Bearer). But that power doesn't turn out to be "cool" at all ... it's a horrible burden (again Frodo). Being Azor Ahai isn't cool/bad ass ... it's horrible. Jon has to kill his lover and be exiled to assume the true mantle of the prophecy, that is the price to pay.
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finally someone who speaks sense about the story imo season 8 was fine rushed sure but not the disaster the internet makes it out to be
The WW take most of Westeros and KL, moving under the wings of the massive ice dragon (larger and stronger than Dany's dragons), Dany's dragons are lost/wounded (Drogon has turned to stone), humanity is on the run. Dany will want to sacrifice Jon's and her child to wake a dragon from stone, seemingly the only way. What is one child against the realm of men, if she looks back she's lost, she always knew the price, she is above all else a saviour etc. Jon prevents her, that's what kings do, what they're for, protecting those who can not protect themselves. Dany either dies during Jon's intervention or he executes her after for the attempt to sacrifice the child, it is justice. The blade with which he kills her takes flame, Dany's soul enters (stoned) Drogon and Drogon is reborn the size of Balerion. Jon says goodbye to his baby girl, mounts Balerion-Dany and they go fight the ice dragon. They fight above a water body, Dany's breath melts the ice dragon but when its blue crystal eye lands in the water below the ice dragon reforms around it. Second time Jon jumps from Balerion/Dany and puts the flaming sword through the blue crystal eye of the ice dragon. Ice dragon dies. Balerion/Dany flies away, Jon is never seen again, presumed dead in the fall.
Jorah is a minor character. The main characters on the other hand are different.
King Bran for instance comes straight from GRRM according to the actor and Benioff+Weiss.
You could find a lot of clues within the books that pretty much point to the ending we saw in the show for the main characters(Bran, Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, and Tyrion).
Here is GRRM's words on it:
There are things there that spoil the ending and some things there that will be different.
Well no, I don't believe we're actually going to see Jon bring Daenerys north. Marwyn the Mage was created by GRRM for a reason plus there's too much story up north for Jon to just jog off to Dragonstone for a diplomatic meeting.
Jon actually does lust after power too unlike in the show. He's even jealous that Robb gets to be king and not him.
I would also provide King Robert Baratheon as the counterpoint that people who don't lust after power are best suited to use them.
IMO you can't change GRRM's basic ending points. You're altering the entire point of the story, and that doesn't work.
You can change how the WW battle goes and how they are defeated, but you can't really change the ending -- Jon stabbing Dany through the heart, Bran elected king.
You're changing the entire theme/point of the story and that doesn't work. You can't change the thematic intent of the writer.
You can change how the WW battle goes and how they are defeated, but you can't really change the ending -- Jon stabbing Dany through the heart, Bran elected king.
You're changing the entire theme/point of the story and that doesn't work. You can't change the thematic intent of the writer.
Jorah is a minor character. The main characters on the other hand are different.
King Bran for instance comes straight from GRRM according to the actor and Benioff+Weiss.
You could find a lot of clues within the books that pretty much point to the ending we saw in the show for the main characters(Bran, Jon, Dany, Sansa, Arya, and Tyrion).
Here is GRRM's words on it:
There are things there that spoil the ending and some things there that will be different.
Well no, I don't believe we're actually going to see Jon bring Daenerys north. Marwyn the Mage was created by GRRM for a reason plus there's too much story up north for Jon to just jog off to Dragonstone for a diplomatic meeting.
Jon actually does lust after power too unlike in the show. He's even jealous that Robb gets to be king and not him.
I would also provide King Robert Baratheon as the counterpoint that people who don't lust after power are best suited to use them.
Yeah but Jon doesn't actively lust after the throne in his actions. He's jealous of Robb moreso because he's a legitimate Stark heir and the "perfect noble", whereas he's been a bastard all his life, which is also dramatic irony because he doesn't realize he in fact is actually prince. Now if in the books he starts a campaign to crown himself king and starts to become obsessed with prophecies of himself being Azor Ahai ... that would be different, but I don't think that's going to happen.
Largely, Jon Snow is an honorable man who never asked to be king/prophecy hero, etc. And that's precisely why he is the hero. Because he doesn't want it. Which is obviously a point GRRM is trying to make centrally.
Azor Ahai in GRRM's moralistic spectrum was never, ever going to be a person who lusts after the idea of being Azor Ahai. It has to be someone who doesn't want to be it. Because really, it's actually horrible what Azor Ahai has to do. It's not "glamorous" or something one should lust after at all.
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Yeah. But they should have bit the bullet and started anticipating and writing their own original ending like seasons before they were forced to, or perhaps more realistically they should have contracted someone out who could have brought the thematic and character stuff established earlier on to a satisfying conclusion. It doesn't have to be what GRRM would write it just has to make sense and have a degree of congruence/wholeness and not be shit.
Lol if you narrow it down to that one episode then no. This whole thing shouldn't have been neglected to one episode.
The conflict with the night king should have been a prolonged fight, filled with hardships and loss to drive home the severity of the situation, this isn't just like any other fight, this is the night king we are talking about. Having it be resolved in one episode and in the 1st confrontation they have with him is completely anticlimatic, especially since it is resolved by a character that has nothing to do with the night king. Nothing.
The conflict with the night king should have been a prolonged fight, filled with hardships and loss to drive home the severity of the situation, this isn't just like any other fight, this is the night king we are talking about. Having it be resolved in one episode and in the 1st confrontation they have with him is completely anticlimatic, especially since it is resolved by a character that has nothing to do with the night king. Nothing.
Again, I point Robert Baratheon out to you.
That said, yes, Jon is becoming more reliant on Melisandre and her prophecies by the end of ADWD.
Love this guy, but lol, morally he's not Jon and probably would fail to make the ultimate sacrifice (kill the one he he loves to create a better, just society even if it means a society in which he has no power).
Azor Ahai isn't just about being king, in fact it's least about that. It's about who is the person who is noble enough of heart to make the sacrifice of destroying basically his own life for the betterment of society.
Jon is the only one who would do it, the betterment of society at the expense of one's own power is a concept completely alien to all the other wannabe monarchs in Got, Dany included.
She wants a better world, but only on her terms, only with her on the throne to dictate.
Jon doesn't care about that. That is true heroism. Not just "winning battles".
This is not a theme in GRRM's writing, that's 100% a show-only thing. Jon in the books does want to be a hero and leader. Wanting power isn't a bad thing in ASOIAF, it's what you want to do with the power (and also what you'd be willing to do to get it, perhaps).
The divide between the "good" and "bad" characters in GRRM's writing is whether one cares about the common good or only oneself.
There's zero in the books that suggest Arya's show ending. The character isn't a mariner, has never expressed any desire to be one or to find "what's west of Westeros", etc. The book character may become a wandering hero or something like that, but I would put the chances of her sailing off by herself into the unknown at around 5%.
Unrelatedly, there's been a number of suggestions in this thread that the good guys should have lost the Battle of Winterfell. That would never fly, because Winterfell does not fall in winter. However many other ways D&D fucked up GRRM's themes and characters, they at least got that right. The Starks lost Winterfell already in the story. The Long Night is the time for wolves, and the Starks retaking Winterfell is them gearing up to do what their house does best.
D&D aren't smart enough to come up with that theme, that was told to them by GRRM about why Bran becomes king and they had to shoe horn it into the show to make it work.
Actually I think basically all the basic points at the end of the show will happen in the books.
D&D did not have discretion to just make those central parts up, that's not for them to decide because they would be changing the thematic point of the story and that's above their pay grade.
That said it doesn't look like to me they really liked all of George's ideas, lol. They never really cared for Bran much. It felt exactly like basically they were telling the story they wanted and for the end they basically had to conform to GRRM's ending and that's also in part why the ending doesn't work. They never committed themselves to build towards the GRRM ending.
I don't think D and D came up with the controversial twists like King Bran, Dany burning down KL and Jon being exiled. A lot of their work like battle of the bastards are like fairly standard hollywood crowdpleasers. Another example is Brienne getting to put down Stannis as she hoped and Cersei blowing up all her enemies in spectacular way, which probably won't happen in the books considering the characters like Kevan is already dead and maybe Loras is about to.
When D and D come up with their material it's safe and predictable and I guess they kill off characters like Doran and the sand snakes because it's easier than to figure out what to do them. This isn't always a bad thing, some of is is very entertaining but a harsh shake up like Dany becoming a villian doesn't seem their style and yet they tried to write it.
Coming up with that ending doesn't require them to be smart. Indeed, rather the opposite, "ambition is bad, only people who don't want power deserve it" is one of the most common morals in stories like this (it's also nonsense).
When Bran becomes king in the books, I'm confident it will have nothing to do with Tyrion giving a speech about the power of stories or some nonsense. Bran in the books will in all likelihood be a terrifyingly effective wizard-seer, rather than a do-nothing potato.
Arya sailing off into the west doesn't fit anything in the books at all.
When it's distilled and force fed into like 2 episodes time, yes it's poorly done. Same could be said of any dramatic theme.
Pretty sure George will do a better job of setting it up and executing it in the books.
The show was basically "we're gonna do bad ass stuff that's cool, and oh look sex ... and ok shit we gotta finish, quick! Look at the notes George gave us! OK fine, that Bran fucker is king I guess because .... (reading notes) ... he doesn't want power. Alrighty then, gotta do Star Wars k, thx, bye."
Specifically, no. But generally, yes, there's indication that she fucks off from Westeros probably to Braavos. So I was thinking more wandering hero like you say than a mariner.
GRRM did mention about writing a mystery-murder novel with an adult Arya in Braavos.
Actually I think the Arya ending is the books ending too, lol.
George's not going to kill Arya because she's his wife's favorite character (?). So her plot armor is already air tight.
She's not going to stay in Westeros and become a noble woman raising little baby Northern heirs because that's completely against her character arc.
Her going "west of Westeros" to discover all types of interesting shit using all the training she receives and live life on her own terms and becoming some kind of mythic legend sounds about right.
George's not going to kill Arya because she's his wife's favorite character (?). So her plot armor is already air tight.
She's not going to stay in Westeros and become a noble woman raising little baby Northern heirs because that's completely against her character arc.
Her going "west of Westeros" to discover all types of interesting shit using all the training she receives and live life on her own terms and becoming some kind of mythic legend sounds about right.
Book Bran's internal struggle is his initial belief that he's not good for anything once crippled, but he also thinks of himself as Prince of Winterfell. His story arc will undoubtedly see himself embrace being a leader and overcome his internal self-doubt. Nothing like the show, where he basically ceases to be a character at all. He'll most likely be chosen as king on the merits, not because he doesn't want power.
The whole bit about Westeros electing kings from now on is also almost certainly a D&D invention, because it's really dumb, and they had kept hyping the idea of "breaking the wheel", which isn't a thing in the books.
If Arya doesn't want to marry and raise kids, she can just not do that. She doesn't need to leave Westeros and sail into the unknown.
Going "west of Westeros" has no foundation whatsoever in her story. She's never evinced the slightest interest in it, and nothing in her journey has involved (or is likely to involve) learning to be a mariner; her skills have nothing to do with that.
It's especially notable that GRRM actually did give us a character in Fire and Blood (Elissa Farman) who had a lifelong desire to go over the horizon, and her experience, character motivation, etc. is nothing like Arya.
I actually don't think any of that is D&D's invention. That is George's ending, unless he purposefully was fucking with them and told them the wrong ending but I don't think he would do that.
There's even a moment in the TV ending where Sam suggests democracy for the people, which I'm pretty sure is 100% from George (the suggestion is greeted with by laughter). Sam is basically the story's avatar for GRRM himself, but of course Westeros isn't ready to go straight from democratic rule (the ideal best system) from the tyrant, noble class driven world they have so the compromise is the nobles choosing the leader for the time being.
Arya's arc is wilful to dutiful. TWOT5Ks, the worst of which Arya toured, occurred because a queen put her love and own desires ahead of her duty. Similar atrocities for similar reasons will occur during the second dance. It is wild child Arya's lot to sacrifice her love of Gendry and the freedom to be anyone and travel anywhere to assume the role of a highborn lady, to become again Arya Stark, princess of the North, and marry who her lord wills. As she will have learnt peace is made and kept by such personal sacrifices.
She's not sailing off into the sunset, that's nonsense.
She's not sailing off into the sunset, that's nonsense.
Ehhh ... I don't think so. The entire Arya arc is one of "fuck being a noble woman that sits around raising little lords and ladies".
She's not sailing off into any sunset either, she's sailing off to have future adventures where she will likely become some kind of hero of legend.
Arya sailing up into a possible dead lands seemed to be like Frodo in Lord of the Rings. I have a feeling it's the kind of allusion GRRM would do like naming a sidekick character Sam, The Battle of The Wall feeling a bit Helm's Deep, but of course I can't prove it that was his idea. Also seems to fit with him saying the ending is bittersweet. They had an outline and it would have made sense to include the fate of one of the most iconic characters.
It's "George's ending" in the sense of a couple of bullet points, and not more than that, I would say; so Bran becomes king, but how and why, different. As noted, Bran's character is not going to be anything like what we see in the show; the idea of the Three-Eyed Raven/Crow being an emotionless potato is something the writers seem to have invented between season 6 and season 7, because that wasn't the case before, and it's not the case in the books either (likewise, the whole depiction of greenseers in the show is quite different from the books).
The characters, plot arcs, themes, are all so different that you can't ascribe anything more.
Sam proposing democracy, likewise, I doubt has any basis in GRRM's notes.
It's really not.
We'll see, but I actually doubt this.
People don't want to believe it but I think all of that is GRRM's ideas. If D&D had their actual way the ending would be way different than that.
The main thing I think they actually got in the resolution that is theirs and theirs alone is Bronn "winning". That's basically their wish fulfilment, so of course the last dialogue scene of the show can be about brothels (really deep guys).
I'm sure George gave them some context for the ending past just "Bran king, do it".
That would be very disingenuous on his part really.
A council electing Bran because Bran doesn't want to be king is gonna be in the books. Jon stabbing Dany specifically through the heart because she's become a tyrant will specifically be in the books. Sansa becoming Queen of the North will be in the books. Arya going west of Westeros even I think will be in the books.
There's no way George could get out of having to tell them what the ending was in some contextual detail so they could understand it.
Bran: "only by unrestricted competition can we achieve the best possible results!"
Night King : "the free market will help support my morale issue *AND* help employ my unskilled labor force"
I think if D and D came up with the ending outline it'd be more a Hollywood final battle like Battle of the Bastards that had loads of fan service.
Yep, if D&D had their ending it would be the "bad ass" warrior ending, not the "council elects fucking Bran to King" ending, lol. The second ending is more thoughtful and almost certainly the one Geroge put on them.
Have Arya stab him and it turns out he's immune to it. Have him kill some big plot characters and march on King's Landing while the survivors figure out what the hell to do.
Hell, let him win in the end. Everything would have been better compared to what we got. Still mad about it
Hell, let him win in the end. Everything would have been better compared to what we got. Still mad about it
Bran being elected king definitely happens but an elected monarchy, I'm unsure about.
GRRM isn't really writing a story to break the wheel. That was a term that the show came up.
And GRRM did say that there were differences so it's about how major those differences are.
I mean if it's not an elected monarchy though then I give it a chance that Rickon is actually alive at the end of the story and is the Viserys II to Bran's Aegon III and he serves as Bran's heir while Sansa rules the North.
Obviously the basic character endpoints for the leads have some basis in GRRM's notes, but the mechanics, themes, etc.? Very different.
Sure, but there's no reason that the writers necessarily went with that, because they've changed many story mechanics already, and others wouldn't fit with all the changes. And, as has been noted, Bran's character in the show is nothing like the books. The characterization of the Three-Eyed Raven is show-only.
Bran's arc will culminate in him being made king because he's demonstrated ability as a seer and leader, thus fulfilling his role as Prince of Winterfell and showing up all the people (including his own doubts) that thought he had no value.
Sansa being Lady of Winterfell, at least. The split between the North and the other kingdoms with Starks ruling both feels very much like a D&D invention, because it's politically nonsensical.
I'm pretty sure he had to explain to D&D how/why Bran is king.
You can't just say "Bran is to be king" ... it immediately begs the question "well ok George, how the fuck does that happen?".
The council stuff is definitely happening. I think someone else pointed this out but there was already a bit in the books that foreshadows the council thing.
I always assumed there would be a stronger connection between Bran/3eyed raven, R'hllor and the night king (great other), so the end of the night king didn't appeal to me at all, I just wished there would have been more to it and I believe this could have easily been done in season 8, even with 6 episodes because episode 1 and 2 had a lot of filler/setup anyway.
But you're agreeing with me.
I think Bran gets elected. I even think Davos, Tyrion, Brienne and Sam are on Bran's council too. It's too perfect.
I'm more doubtful of the succession system implemented after that.
Yeah they should've just added something ... anything to that.
Bran goes back into the past to discover ... Night King and 3 Eyed Raven were lovers or something, lol.
Something, anything. They needed to give us one more puzzle piece at least.
In my opinion there needed to be an entire episode focused on the Night King as a character and the way the dead army operates from a sympathetic point of view so we can understand them.
Similar to the Wildlings
Similar to the Wildlings