Gamesbeat: PS5 has a better architecture than any console in history, according to devs, a joy to work with.

[Issen]

I'm sure the consoles will be great, but it is good to remember that this is also a time period when devs praise the new systems in every way they can imagine just to promote their own games and studios. Sometimes even if they don't have access to the new systems yet but plan to release games for them later. It definitely works. Just look at this forum.

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Yep. Keep expectations in check. Keep your mind open and be ready to be surprised when you are shown the devices in action (particularly in footage of new games), but even then you must keep in mind pre-release footage is often not fully representative of the end products. Always remember the days of downgrades, bullshots or bull-clips (like Killzone 2's).

It's okay to be excited and optimistic while not entirely believing everything you're hearing until the product is actually in your hands.

And yes, having third party developers who simultaneously have the know-how to understand how the specifications in these systems affect them and aren't under any marketing contract to up-sell any particular system does lend credence to what they're saying. But I'd say even then you should still remain skeptical (again, skeptical doesn't mean don't be excited and optimistic) until stuff's in your hands and you're actually playing it.

 

[Bradbatross]

How is it a preemptive observation we've heard nothing but praise from several well verified and note worthy insiders....

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And we've had nothing but praise for Series X, even though it's been less. No one is saying the Series X is bad or less capable than the PS5. In fact we have the specs for both systems..

 

[TitanicFall]

I'm sure the consoles will be great, but it is good to remember that this is also a time period when devs praise the new systems in every way they can imagine just to promote their own games and studios. Sometimes even if they don't have access to the new systems yet but plan to release games for them later. It definitely works. Just look at this forum.

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Maybe they are excited to work with something new? Game design might change alot over the next few years. These changes are not necessarily limited to PS5 hardware only, but it sounds like Sony is doing more than just beefing up the processing power over the last gen.

 

[litebrite]

You madman! You'd rather wait to actually see results than wildly speculate about something you can't possibly know at this moment?!

What is the world coming to...

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I know there's an asylum waiting for me with a room with my name on it.

 

[VinFTW]

Because you're operating on confirmation bias without any tangible results of seeing any of this in action yet you're already willing to write off how MS designed their XSX. LOL

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Why does everybody need to be biased? I'm not biased. I have literally owned every console for every generation, if anything it's no secret I tend to lead further into Xbox. Sony has just been killing it lately. Maybe it just seems like bias to you because Sony has far more to celebrate and praise right now??? Why can't people just let people enjoy things.

 

[jroc74]

When your designing games the same way for 20+ years yes because for that amount of time no one has made a game based off the speeds of a SSD with a custom flash I/O controller that talks as fast as the video memory that loads the assets.

What Sony is doing is going to in the next gen after this gen change the way people start making games. In 10 years teraflops won't be what people use solely to measure game performance.

When that one PC developer makes a game where you needs the 5gb/s or larger to play the game it was intended/designed is going to be an evolution.

It's still far off, like probably 6 years or so, but Sony has started the ball rolling.

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I like this explanation.

Yes, MS is going to SSD too. But it's not hard to imagine why teraflops aren't the talking point this time.

Ppl need to imagine for a minute....this is the beginning of consoles using SSDs. They shouldn't be going back to mechanical hard drives. It's only going to get better from here.

Maybe they are excited to work with something new? Game design might change alot over the next few years. These changes are not necessarily limited to PS5 hardware only, but it sounds like Sony is doing more than just beefing up the processing power over the last gen.

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Exactly.

 

[Rosebud]

I've got my fingers crossed for you that the PS5 wins the first DF face off. I don't think you would take a loss well.

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The DF argument is weird to me. Death Stranding won their award last year and PS4 is the 'weaker' console.

Third parties rarely use 100% of the hardware.

 

[litebrite]

Why does everybody need to be biased? I'm not biased. I have literally owned every console for every generation, if anything it's not secret I tend to lead further into Xbox. Sony has just been killing it lately. Maybe it just seems like bias to you because Sony has far more to celebrate and praise???

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You still didn't respond to my post and fail to see how silly your original post was.

 

[DriftingSpirit]

I think it is more the whole package of specs, dev tools and ease of use.

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Agreed.

Series X is obviously a very well built machine. I just think the PS5 does a better job of addressing difficulties common across hardware. It makes devs pretty enthusiastic about working on it since it makes their job easier.

 

[gofreak]

That is one of my issues no one person seems willing to come out and say which is better, its vague mentions and comments and people saying others said this. I just want a straight up answer which is the better console that is it.

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Because neither is better than the other at everything.

The Xbox is better at compute.

The PS5 is better at what you might roughly call data management or throughput.

IF devs are more excited by the PS5 - and that's an IF - it's possibly because the latter hasn't seen a big shift in a long time. And the PS5 is relatively not far off the XSX on compute. It could also be simply due to smaller, less consumer-obvious things, like SDK and tools preferences - we know from last gen that many preferred Sony's stack. It could be things like controller improvements.

It would be quite possible for the PS5 to be preferred by developers while simultaneously the XSX puts out results that may be preferable to a consumer. I think you'll see a different mix of consumer-facing-benefits favouring each console, but you won't get one that has the best of all of them - hence why, aside from anything else (like NDA etc), few are coming out and saying one is roundly better than the other.

 

[aisback]

Sony are going full Ballmer.

I've been wanting a reason to use this video and this is appropriate.

I hope on Thursday Sony reveals more

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Because neither is better than the other at everything.

The Xbox is better at compute.

The PS5 is better at what you might roughly call data management.

IF devs are more excited by the PS5 - and that's an IF - it's possibly because the latter hasn't seen a big shift in a long time. And the PS5 is relatively not far off the XSX on compute. It could also be simply due to smaller, less consumer-obvious things, like SDK and tools preferences - we know from last gen that many preferred Sony's stack.

It would be quite possible for the PS5 to be preferred by developers while simultaneously the XSX puts out results that may be preferable to a consumer. I think you'll see a different mix of consumer-facing-benefits favouring each console, but you won't get one that has the best of all of them - hence why, aside from anything else (like NDA etc), few are coming out and saying one is roundly better than the other.

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[Roarschach]

I just care about the games, and how they perform and play. Sure, if I was a dev, I'd care what is easier to develop for.

 

[Deleted member 22750]

I didn't think that console war discourse could get worse, but now we're going to see vague arguments about consoles being "revolutionary" or "exciting" or too complex for consumers to understand BUT the developers are gushing so that's the only talking point that matters. Forget the specs, it's all about reading into and discussing vague developer reactions now. How exciting.

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Exciting times. New consoles are coming. They can't help but let their bias run wild.

Some of the console warring in this topic is pathetic.

 

[Iwao]

I didn't think that console war discourse could get worse, but now we're going to see vague arguments about consoles being "revolutionary" or "exciting" or too complex for consumers to understand BUT the developers are gushing so that's the only talking point that matters. Forget the specs, it's all about reading into and discussing vague developer reactions now. How exciting.

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It was never vague at all, but what is going to happen once the NDAs drop and we hear more of this kind of stuff? I think you misunderstand why people are bringing up quotes that are more meaningful that you're giving them credit for. Since the Cerny's Road to PS5 video people have doubted that his approach with focusing on SSD, I/O optimisations and variable clock speeds would work well and/or have the kinds of positive repercussions we're hearing about. This "news" is simply clarifying that the bigger picture might have escaped those too focused on the teraflop, and we should probably be listening to the ones who are making games for these machines.

 

[DixieDean82]

Agreed.

Series X is obviously a very well built machine. I just think the PS5 does a better job of addressing difficulties common across hardware. It makes devs pretty enthusiastic about working on it since it makes their job easier.

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That makes sense. If their job is made easier I understand why they're happy! I would like to see how it affects the end results that we consumers see, though.

 

[FrostweaveBandage]

Thought this was an interesting tidbit from Jeff Grubb's article about the upcoming PS5 event and worth discussing separately.





Bold claims. What do we make of this?

https://venturebeat.com/2020/05/29/...rmed-what-to-expect-from-the-june-4-showcase/

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I believe I heard similar things about the PS4 once.

 

[AllChan7]

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But Jeff is just an attention seeker who's desperate for clicks/s

I think the conclusion and take away from everything devs have been saying about the PS5 is that its a fantastically designed piece of hardware that's really efficient. This doesn't remotely take away from how very impressive the SX is but it is interesting that we've been seeing more fawning over the PS5 than the SX

 

[sleepr]

Sony are going full Ballmer.

I've been wanting a reason to use this video and this is appropriate.

I hope on Thursday Sony reveals more

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That video will never get old. :D

 

[Prime2]

It was never vague at all, but what is going to happen once the NDAs drop and we hear more of this kind of stuff? I think you misunderstand why people are bringing up quotes that are more meaningful that you're giving them credit for. Since the Cerny's Road to PS5 video people have doubted that his approach with focusing on SSD, I/O optimisations and variable clock speeds would work well and/or have the kinds of positive repercussions we're hearing about. This "news" is simply hammering home that the bigger picture might have escaped those too focused on the teraflop.

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See the issue with that is nearly every company hammered home Teraflops as a metric for years then it suddenly became a thing that didn't matter. You can't proudly state it for years then pretend its a thing to just not care about, that is not how it works at all.

 

[Papacheeks]

Sony are going full Ballmer.

I've been wanting a reason to use this video and this is appropriate.

I hope on Thursday Sony reveals more

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Every time I watch that Balmer video I forget that why he's sweating so bad is it was outside, but it doesn't explain him coming out screaming, lol. Guy did couple lines of coke or something before he came out to get himself pumped.

 

[litebrite]

People need to quit viewing these things through a console war lens. Positive news for PS5 doesn't necessarily mean negative news for XSX, and vice versa. As somebody excited for next gen this should simply be good news.

 

[EagleClaw]

Which console would advertised with a TF number?

 

[Kenzodielocke]

Yep. Keep expectations in check. Keep your mind open and be ready to be surprised when you are shown the devices in action (particularly in footage of new games), but even then you must keep in mind pre-release footage is often not fully representative of the end products. Always remember the days of downgrades, bullshots or bull-clips (like Killzone 2's).

It's okay to be excited and optimistic while not entirely believing everything you're hearing until the product is actually in your hands.

And yes, having third party developers who simultaneously have the know-how to understand how the specifications in these systems affect them and aren't under any marketing contract to up-sell any particular system does lend credence to what they're saying. But I'd say even then you should still remain skeptical (again, skeptical doesn't mean don't be excited and optimistic) until stuff's in your hands and you're actually playing it.

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I would really appreciate if people would stop bringing up Killzone like that happened well over 10 years ago.

 

[cgcg]

I mean TFLOP count difference is 17%
SSD speed difference is 220%

which is more exciting? I mean really.

 

[BitsandBytes]

Agreed.

Series X is obviously a very well built machine. I just think the PS5 does a better job of addressing difficulties common across hardware. It makes devs pretty enthusiastic about working on it since it makes their job easier.

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Exactly. And also what gofreak said (always explains things so well).

 

[xabbott]

Seems like MS messed up again tbh, prioritizing the wrong thing and not reading the landscape per usual. Devs clearly were asking for other things. Makes it seem like the series X was safe, basically just a stronger Xbox one x. PS5 on the other handle sounds more revolutionary per multiple devs.

I think the response of "we'll wait and see what the games look like" doesn't really bode well either given Sony's first party studios are all technical wizards.

PS5 truly does excite me. Can't wait to see the games this thing will produce.

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The XSX has incredible specs, long rumored before the reveal that it wouldn't hit. It hit the numbers and has one aspect that is worse than the competition. Without understanding the entire IO system they've built around this. We're loling at teraflops while praising read/write speed numbers.

Sony did something great with the SSD but as others have talked about, its not just the SSD that is behind the speeds they are proud of. Microsoft also seems to have solutions built that give it speeds higher than just putting a very fast ssd into a PC.

Sony was going to make amazing games regardless of the flops, the ssd, etc. They output games that look better on the original PS4 than third parties do on higher end PCs. Had Sony had every spec lower than the XSX the games would carry them anyway.

All these worries bout specs aren't going to mean a whole lot once third parties put out the games. As long as they support PC ports or cross platform nothing will take full advantage of the console's strengths as well as the first parties do. So outside of deals with platform holders we'll probably see higher res/framerate on XSX and faster loading on PS5.

 

[Lobster Roll]

It was never vague at all, but what is going to happen once the NDAs drop and we hear more of this kind of stuff? I think you misunderstand why people are bringing up quotes that are more meaningful that you're giving them credit for. Since the Cerny's Road to PS5 video people have doubted that his approach with focusing on SSD, I/O optimisations and variable clock speeds would work well and/or have the kinds of positive repercussions we're hearing about. This "news" is simply clarifying that the bigger picture might have escaped those too focused on the teraflop, and we should probably be listening to the ones who are making games for these machines.

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Because the statements are nothing more than vague statements of support and excitement. There's very little to glean from that other than - surprise - the developers are excited to work with the PS5 which is filled with parts that are much further into the tech timeline than the PS4 was when it released. It's the same situation for the XSX. As for discerning which is more powerful or will produce a better 3rd party experience, nothing matters until the actual consoles are torn down from the top to bottom to analyze the parts. Further, a direct side by side benchmarking is actual information that can be argued. The stuff that's being argued currently is schoolyard shouting, when we're mere months away from seeing third party games benchmarked for FPS at various graphical settings and resolutions.

 

[Expy]

I didn't think that console war discourse could get worse, but now we're going to see vague arguments about consoles being "revolutionary" or "exciting" or too complex for consumers to understand BUT the developers are gushing so that's the only talking point that matters. Forget the specs, it's all about reading into and discussing vague developer reactions now. How exciting.

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Specs don't make games; developers do.

 

[Uzupedro]

People need to quit viewing these things through a console war lens. Positive news for PS5 doesn't necessarily mean negative news for XSX, and vice versa. As somebody excited for next gen this should simply be good news.

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Yep, Jeff himself said that on a later tweet, people becoming defensive because of these claims of the PS5 architeture is unnecessary. Both consoles are going to be great to work with and have great architeture, and well, IF one of them stands out, its ok, dont means that the other one is bad or anything like that

 

[T002 Tyrant]

In a world where technology gets better over the years....Looks like Sony cracked the code that no-one else has; progression in technology.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

See the issue with that is nearly every company hammered home Teraflops as a metric for years then it suddenly became a thing that didn't matter. You can't proudly state it for years then pretend its a thing to just not care about, that is not how it works at all.

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Which companies did this? I mean really hammered home the teraflop? I remember it mentioned, but don't recall companies hanging onto it like gospel. That was 4K more than anything. Teraflops were more of a forum dweller latch (and mainly this gen, by console gamers) than anything I saw from devs/manufacturers. Could be wrong, of course, but I just don't recall it happening that way.

 

[Papacheeks]

I believe I heard similar things about the PS4 once.

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Hardware at the time was stil based off performance wise TF. TF won't be the be all in next 5-6 years. Once everyone adopts this in their engines, games are going to change.

PS4 for it's time had a giant pool of memory not seen in consoles. 8GB of GDDR which when you look at what they've been able to achieve in quality of assets from a fairly week hardware set is still kind of astonishing.

But from the get go, developers were just excited to get off of old arch at the time which was harder for modern engines to run. Remember Power PC arch was what devs were using. So they couldn't use advancements on those with new API's. PS4/XBOX were modern and could handle beyond direct x 9 variants. ANd more mature API's in newer engines.

This is not the same, api's would still run if lets say sony went with standard 2-2.5/s SSD, with a standard chip setup. Engines would still run without issue. But they wanted to move development for engines forward. Engines from here on out in the next 5 years or so are going to change the way games are in not just density.

 

[VinFTW]

You still didn't respond to my post and fail to see how silly your original post was.

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You clearly have no interest in respecting me or trying to understand my point of view/argument so just move on

 

[Sems4arsenal]

Have third party devs maxed a PS4 Pro or a One X yet?

 

[dep9000]

You may not see the payoff from third partys is what i mean. I think first party you will see their games being very different. Especially when we see videos from devs showing behind the scenes in how they approached their projects with the hardware.

When you see Santa monica, Naughty dog leverage these tech advances your going to see things at first that probably will be more suttle, but once we get breakdown videos, your going to see how advanced they are in development strats.

It's not a coincidence that they straight up talked to engineers from publishers about their engines and whats a bottleneck. TF wasn't the thing they talked about. So unreal engine, DICE, over time are going to make these changes in their engines.

It's exciting.

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Got it. Yeah hopefully Sony releases some games right at launch that take full advantage of the SSD. With the XSX it sounds like it may take up to a year until we see their own games take advantage, or whenever Microsoft decides to stop making cross gen games (I believe they said they would support the Xbox One for a year after the XSX releases).

Will be interesting to see the types of changes in game design we'll see with the SSD. I hope it's a lot better than just removal of long corridors to hide loading times. That's nice, but not enough for me to get excited.

 

[Prime2]

Which companies did this? I mean really hammered home the teraflop? I remember it mentioned, but don't recall companies hanging onto it like gospel. That was 4K more than anything. Teraflops were more of a forum dweller latch (and mainly this gen, by console gamers) than anything I saw from devs/manufacturers. Could be wrong, of course, but I just don't recall it happening that way.

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Look back at AMD Nvidia even Sony and Cerny used it, then MS did it with the Xbox one X and it took front and center stage then.

 

[Deleted member 50658]

See i think native 1440p was their output render target. I think you will see alot of games from them either locked 1440p or rendered at 1440p, reprojected 4k.

Which will look great. I think the extra power Sex has is aiming like Xbox one x for a native 4k. With the bigger chip they have running at the frequency they have, I think is what they are aiming for.

I think resolution and image quality MS in third party and in their first party you will see them aim for that. I think image resolution and frame rate are what they are aiming for.

While Sony sees that as not the future, I think they see actually building games to be instant, bigger more complex and the actual final output resolution is secondary.

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I hope you mean they will target 4K for their first party games and Sony 1440p and not that third party games will show that kind of difference right?

 

[litebrite]

You clearly have no interest in respecting me or trying to understand my point of view/argument so just move on

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I've moved on unfortunately your silly post writing off how MS designed XSX due to some developers being excited to work with PS5 instead of actually waiting and seeing the results remains.

 

[platocplx]

See the issue with that is nearly every company hammered home Teraflops as a metric for years then it suddenly became a thing that didn't matter. You can't proudly state it for years then pretend its a thing to just not care about, that is not how it works at all.

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I don't recall any console manufacturers doing this at all. Unless I'm mistaken Tflops seemed to only be about PC gaming only. Any evidence of this anywhere?

Which companies did this? I mean really hammered home the teraflop? I remember it mentioned, but don't recall companies hanging onto it like gospel. That was 4K more than anything. Teraflops were more of a forum dweller latch (and mainly this gen, by console gamers) than anything I saw from devs/manufacturers. Could be wrong, of course, but I just don't recall it happening that way.

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Right I don't ever recall any console manufacturers ever doing this, resolutions yes but that's about it. Not even bragging about frame rates.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

Look back at AMD Nvidia even Sony and Cerny used it, then MS did it with the Xbox one X and it took front and center stage then.

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Mentioned, yes. I don't remember it being a center piece of discussion among them. Basically, not the big deal forum dwellers made/make them out to be. They ultimately don't matter because they prove nothing, while read/write speeds, more RAM, and better I/O means more data passed/processed, larger worlds, and more on-screen. Teraflops aren't invited to that party.

 

[RivalGT]

Which console would advertised with a TF number?

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Probably the one that put 8K in their SoC

 

[bcatwilly]

This thread is hilarious to watch. It really isn't that complicated here. Sony has obviously created a great console that is very developer friendly, which is not surprising given what they did with the PS4 too. Sony is also the current industry leader with obvious fans even in the 3rd party development studios which has been earned over time, but things like developer preference and earlier access to PS5 dev kits that even Jeff noted can definitely be part of the praise here too. The great thing for Xbox is that nobody is saying bad things about the dev kits at all yet like they were prior to this generation, and in fact the Ascent developer noted that it was the best console platform that they had worked on prior to now for example. The other big thing that will help Xbox this generation is that DirectX 12 Ultimate is being merged to be identical for Xbox Series X and PC development going forward, so this should really open up PC developers that much more to take advantage of the Xbox console too going forward. Both will have awesome developer support it sounds like to me.

But a nice architecture that is developer friendly isn't suddenly going to flip the script on architectural raw power advantages due to some secret sauce or something, and those that are waiting for that outcome will be disappointed.

 

[Papacheeks]

I hope you mean they will target 4K for their first party games and Sony 1440p and not that third party games will show that kind of difference right?

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Honestly I don't know. i mean from the way sony has talked about their console notice they have not hammered 4k so much as microsoft. Their goal in games is not to tout "4k/60fps. But to overall change the way developer approach games in general.

I THINK seeing them use checkerboarding and variable resolution solutions I'm fine. As long as the game when I play it in it's art direction, scope, expierence blows me away is mostly what i care about. My output to my 4k tv is not the thing I care about. Games already look great on current tv's.

 

[litebrite]

Specs don't make games; developers do.

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Agreed, but developers excitement shouldn't make us, consumers, excited. Their results should

 

[Iwao]

See the issue with that is nearly every company hammered home Teraflops as a metric for years then it suddenly became a thing that didn't matter. You can't proudly state it for years then pretend its a thing to just not care about, that is not how it works at all.

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It's not that it doesn't matter, because 10.3TF is nothing to sniff at, and having even more than that is great. If any of these consoles were underpowered, it would be a problem. Regardless of this though, not only is an RDNA2 teraflop/CU different to the ones in previous hardware, but the percentage difference between both consoles is lower than it ever has been and by a rather large amount. It won't be as visible or impactful a gap as it has been over the past few years, especially not when developers are more excited about breaking ground in other areas — areas where the PS5 seems to have a monstrous advantage. That really isn't the point here though… the point is that since Cerny gave his talk, people have doubted that his approach to diverting more resources into to SSD, I/O throughput, variable clocks and the invisible automated processes that developers don't have to worry about and makes their lives so much easier would yield as good results as the approach with simply having more teraflops, more CUs and fixed clocks. Developers are more excited by things that aren't teraflops, and that is significant.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

But a nice architecture that is developer friendly isn't suddenly going to flip the script on architectural raw power advantages due to some secret sauce or something.

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Eh, I generally see people looking at both devices for what they are and discussing how the PS5 could do things in ways that the XSX cannot. Yes, the XSX is overall a stronger package, but that doesn't remove the PS5's own advantages under the hood.

 

[Papacheeks]

This thread is hilarious to watch. It really isn't that complicated here. Sony has obviously created a great console that is very developer friendly, which is not surprising given what they did with the PS4 too. Sony is also the current industry leader with obvious fans even in the 3rd party development studios which has been earned over time, but things like developer preference and earlier access to PS5 dev kits that even Jeff noted can definitely be part of the praise here too. The great thing for Xbox is that nobody is saying bad things about the dev kits at all yet like they were prior to this generation, and in fact the Ascent developer noted that it was the best console platform that they had worked on prior to now for example. The other big thing that will help Xbox this generation is that DirectX 12 Ultimate is being merged to be identical for Xbox Series X and PC development going forward, so this should really open up PC developers that much more to take advantage of the Xbox console too going forward. Both will have awesome developer support it sounds like to me.

But a nice architecture that is developer friendly isn't suddenly going to flip the script on architectural raw power advantages due to some secret sauce or something, and those that are waiting for that outcome will be disappointed.

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You are correct. But what they are trying to do is going to create waves over time in engine development and if they are at the forefront of this, it will show which company was more forward thinking in advancing game industry development.

 

[bell_hooks]

Maybe they are excited to work with something new? Game design might change alot over the next few years. These changes are not necessarily limited to PS5 hardware only, but it sounds like Sony is doing more than just beefing up the processing power over the last gen.

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I think this is the opposite of working with something new. It's working with something that they are familiar (RDNA which is evolved GCN) but adressed exact point of complaints with SSD and fast CPU. Story is probably same with Xbox

 

[bcatwilly]

You are correct. But what they are trying to do is going to create waves over time in engine development and if they are at the forefront of this, it will show which company was more forward thinking in advancing game industry development.

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Nobody will deny that Sony went with a faster raw speed SSD, but it seems that people just ignore the fact that the Xbox Series X architecture team called their SSD I/O 'Velocity Architecture' the "soul" of their system and have repeatedly talked about how that was a huge focus for them from the beginning too. They obviously must feel that they accomplish game changing design and other things with lesser raw speed in their architecture, as they sure didn't just crank up the other specs and call it a day on the SSD I/O based on their own words and specs.