Und nu? What is your prefered outcome?

  • 🟥⬛

    Votes: 3 1.3%
  • 🟥🟩🟨

    Votes: 182 79.5%
  • ⬛🟩🟨

    Votes: 4 1.7%
  • Neuwahlen

    Votes: 13 5.7%
  • Thor: The Dark World

    Votes: 27 11.8%

  • Total voters
    229

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,238

We had a female chancellor for 16 years.

2017: 33%
2013: 42%
2009: 34%
2005: 35%

and now people dislike baerbock because she is a woman too? When just 8 years ago a female chancellor was able to get 42% of the votes?

Lets take a look at the Umfragen to yesterday's Triell

Am tatkräftigsten
  • Laschet 25 Prozent
  • Scholz 28 Prozent
  • Baerbock 41 Prozent
Am sympathischsten
  • Laschet 18 Prozent
  • Scholz 34 Prozent
  • Baerbock 39 Prozent
People like her, see her as an engaged activist.
Unfortunately they think she lacks experience and competence.


Am kompetentesten
  • Laschet 26 Prozent
  • Scholz 49 Prozent
  • Baerbock 18 Prozent
Which is a general Grüne-Problem they are fighting against since forever. Add the smear campaign to the equation and you have your answer.
 

kVH2LpZd

Member
Apr 3, 2019
958
As much as I sympathize with the cause and already voted for the "future", the nomination of Baerbock was a huge mistake by the green party.

Her problem is not her competency or her gender, her problem is that some people are made to stand in front of a crowd and being able to engange them and being as convincing as possible, and some people are just not made for it. Just like some people are born salesmen and others will never get there. There is nothing wrong with that, only if you try to do it while not being a good fit.

You can always feel that she is not herself, you can always feel that she is uncomfortable. Even in settings where she could be more herself like podcast that aren't trying to be critical interviews, she doesn't deliver any personality.

They tried to be above the usual political narratives, but in the end we would be talking about who will be the junior partner of the green party already with Habeck.
 
Last edited:

Spine Crawler

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,228
What the investigation is about and how it is being communicated are two different things.
The district court is talking about identifying individual members of in the FIU, while the press release is talking about identifying if the ministry is the culprit.

So when Scholz says that the investigation isn't about him or the ministry he is right and he accused Laschet rightfully of lying.

e_gv2t8wqauozlam1jwy.jpeg
wow this reeks like a staged thing
 

Sonix

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,965
People like her, see her as an engaged activist.
Unfortunately they think she lacks experience and competence.
But thats.. exactly what a misogynist / sexist way of seeing her would project.
Why is everyone who is not viewed as an established politician seen as an "activist", maybe "likable" but "not fit to rule"?
What experience is she lacking? She's co-leading one of the biggest partys in germany and you don't get there by doing nothing.

Because you compare with Merkel, maybe she should have pulled a similar move to the Merkel-Stoiber debate and let Habeck have the first try to get the vote on the following election for herself.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,238
But thats.. exactly what a misogynist / sexist way of seeing her would project.

Another logical explanation is age. She is the youngest person running for Chancellor we ever had.
And while 40 is barely young (at least I don't feel young anymore) she comes off way younger on TV.
And we germans do think that age is equivalent to experience and competence.

What you say isn't supported by Umfragen. As said, people like her: Her sympathy numbers are through the roof. The same people seeing her as charismatic and full of Tatendrang, don't view her as competent.
This perfectly describes the uphill battle of younger people. "Good intentions, promising future, but do they really know what they are talking about?"

Sexiest/Mysogynists would not give her any kind of positive rating to begin with.
 

xyla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,487
Germany
As much as I sympathize with the cause and already voted for the "future", the nomination of Baerbock was a huge mistake by the green party.

Her problem is not her competency or her gender, her problem is that some people are made to stand in front of a crowd and being able to engange them and being as convincing as possible, and some people are just not made for it. Just like some people are born salesmen and others will never get there. There is nothing wrong with that, only if you try to do it while not being a good fit.

You can always feel that she is not herself, you can always feel that she is uncomfortable. Even in settings where she could be more herself like podcast that aren't trying to be critical interviews, she doesn't deliver any personality.

They tried to be above the usual political narratives, but in the end we would be talking about who will be the junior partner of the green partner already with Habeck.

I agree with this somewhat. Yesterday you could see her thinking how to get her message across while integrating a few buzzwords that are important to her.
Her flow of words never felt as fluid as it could, she always seemed a tiny bit nervous.

She knows, what she is talking about, you can feel and see that but her camera presence never feels calm like for example Merkel. She doesn't feel like a seasoned politician which can be a huge plus because you can sense that someone is bleeding to get their message across.

I hope she gets there over the next 4 years and I would love to see the greens in the lead of a Bundesregierung. Excited for the next round of predictions.
 

Bonejack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,654


I think someone at CDU didn't get the message from this scene...


Oh cool, that's definitely what i would want to see/hear from a "Volkspartei", a "joke" video where they talk about "Zur Not erzwingen wir unseren Wahlsieg". Sure, nothing speaks like democracy like, even in joke, talking about forcing yourself into election winner.

That's something you shouldn't even joke about.

But hey, i guess that's the new norm for the CDU. It certainly fits this little news here:

www.fr.de

Thüringer Neonazi gibt Wahlempfehlung für Maaßen - Laschet distanziert sich nicht

Hans-Georg Maaßen (CDU) erhält Wahlkampfunterstützung - von einem bekannten Thüringer Neonazi. Die Reaktion von Armin Laschet fällt vielsagend aus.

TL/DR: A well-known Neo-Nazi, like ... real Neo-Nazi, Hitler fan and everything, recommends voting Maaßen with the first vote. A Neo-Nazi calls upon his followers to vote a -> CDU <- candidate. And Laschet doesn't care.

He didn't care for Maaßens fucked up shit so far, and he and the CDU don't care now that an actual Neo-Nazi recommends voting one of their candidates! But he sure made it sound like a victory that he was so graceful to keep Karin Prien in his "Zukunftsteam" after she actually had the balls to criticise Maaßen and call the people in Maaßen's district to rally behind the candidate that has best chance to win over him.

Someone said "Gefahr durch Linksrutsch"??
 

BlueOdin

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,014
So by accident I watched the Triel yesterday. Kind of want the 90 minutes back. Apart from the candidates doing what you expected them to do why was there moderation? The only thing they were doing was talking about how long each one talked. With Maischberger I had the feeling she wanted to do one of her talkshows.

And it's not like the ÖR doesn't have people who would be more suitable for a format like this. Or at least would've been prepared to correct several statements if the other candidates weren't willing (or couldn't).

The most baffling part for me was when Laschet was arguing trickle down economics unopposed. At least Scholz responded kind of to it I guess
 

Sonix

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,965
Another logical explanation is age. She is the youngest person running for Chancellor we ever had.
And while 40 is barely young (at least I don't feel young anymore) she comes off way younger on TV.
And we germans do think that age is equivalent to experience and competence.

What you say isn't supported by Umfragen. As said, people like her: Her sympathy numbers are through the roof. The same people seeing her as charismatic and full of Tatendrang, don't view her as competent.
This perfectly describes the uphill battle of younger people. "Good intentions, promising future, but do they really know what they are talking about?"

Sexiest/Mysogynists would not give her any kind of positive rating to begin with.
I strongly feel there is a correlation between the person in question being a woman and her being called "nice, but too young, not competent enough, just an activist, etc."

Sexists are not black/white in that they hate everything about women, its "just" that they tend to emphasize attributes like "nice", "beautiful", "needs a strong man at her side" etc. etc. instead of competence. Have you seen how many conservatives have posted very ~questionable~ takes about Lisa Neubauer and how she is "so beautiful" if it weren't for her activism?
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,238
I think someone at CDU didn't get the message from this scene...

The corrupt and selfish are manipulating people to steal their future. Lies, lies and an unregulated, selfish Wirtschaft.

I think someone at CDU understands very well.


I strongly feel there is a correlation between the person in question being a woman and her being called "nice, but too young, not competent enough, just an activist, etc."

If that's what you feel, that's what you feel. Not much I can say here.
Other than; I don't feel nor see any evidence for that being the case.

Even I do not see her as being experienced enough to handle sexiest, authocratic fucks like Trump (who very well might return), Putin or Erdogan. They are playing dirty. Putin, for example, had two of those huge Russian dogs waiting for Merkel in his room on their first meeting. Merkel is afraid of dogs.
even von der leyen allowed herself to be outplayed by erdogan (Stuhl Affäre) and she has years of experience. just to make one thing clear: I think Baerbock is way more competent than Ursula.

Merkel handled those kind of situations strongly and made an impression for herself. She is well regarded on the world stage for good reason, that's something even I can't deny.

Still my 2.vote went to the greens today. After yesterday I see a lot of potential in Baerbock, she would learn and adapt quickly enough.
I see RGR as the most likely outcome and I want the greens to have as much negotiating power as possible. But even GRR is fine, as said Baerbock has the potential to grow into leadership.

For my first vote, that went for the young SPD Stadträtin in our city that is now running for Bundestag. She is doing a fine job, I see no reason to punish her.
 
Last edited:

xyla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,487
Germany
I was impressed how she tackled the inner party racism 0 tolerance policy and a bit surprised that she didn't press Laschet more about it. It would have been an easy win I feel.
 

kVH2LpZd

Member
Apr 3, 2019
958
Even I do not see her as being experienced enough to handle sexiest, authocratic fucks like Trump (who very well might return), Putin or Erdogan. They are playing dirty. Putin, for example, had two of those huge Russian dogs waiting for Merkel in his room on their first meeting. Merkel is afraid of dogs.
even von der leyen allowed herself to be outplayed by erdogan (Stuhl Affäre) and she has years of experience. just to make one thing clear: I think Baerbock is way more competent than Ursula.

And to counter the sexism argument again: Laschet would be played by them like the damn fiddle he is as well.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,238
And to counter the sexism argument again: Laschet would be played by them like the damn fiddle he is as well.

Probably.
Funny how CDU tried to sell him as THE Brückenbauer earlier this year.
In retrospect: Reminiscent of the "deal maker" message that accompanied Trump.

All I see is a selfish cheater. At least I was hopeful he wouldn't be a right fuck. But the Maaßen connection, all the childish attacks against SPD and statements from his past like same sex marriage being verfassungswidrig? Come on dude, you are eighter right or flirting with them.

Both is unacceptable in my book.

And while I am ranting about CDU flirting with AfD: Please remember how FDP used AfD to take over the presidency over one of our Staates right before the Pandemie started.
I don't agree a lot with Die Linke, but throwing the congratulation flower in front of Kemmerichs feet was good. Even spitting out would have been fine, though a bit uncivilized.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,037
I strongly feel there is a correlation between the person in question being a woman and her being called "nice, but too young, not competent enough, just an activist, etc."

Sexists are not black/white in that they hate everything about women, its "just" that they tend to emphasize attributes like "nice", "beautiful", "needs a strong man at her side" etc. etc. instead of competence. Have you seen how many conservatives have posted very ~questionable~ takes about Lisa Neubauer and how she is "so beautiful" if it weren't for her activism?
Pretty clear correlation if not outright causality, I see the same blanket criticism every time a younger woman appears anywhere in politics, in a way a young man never has to justify his competence despite being young.
That being said, I believe even with Habeck the Greens would have seen their votes decrease over time as the media in Germany is pretty biased against the party and will always find things to make a scandal out of. Given his longer experience in politics, he probably would have reacted better, but I think there is just a very large voting base in Germany for the "safe" option, and given how crazy unpopular Laschet is, that was always going to be Scholz, who basically runs on being a continuation of Merkels form of politics.
 

kVH2LpZd

Member
Apr 3, 2019
958
Pretty clear correlation if not outright causality, I see the same blanket criticism every time a younger woman appears anywhere in politics, in a way a young man never has to justify his competence despite being young.
Philip Rösler, Philip Amthor(what is it with that name? ;) ), Kevin Kühnert were or are constantly scrutinized for their age/inexperience...
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,037
Philip Rösler, Philip Amthor(what is it with that name? ;) ), Kevin Kühnert were or are constantly scrutinized for their age/inexperience...
Must say I'm not overly familiar with German politics, so I can't speak about these people. However, here in Austria our current chancellor Kurz is easily the youngest party leader and head of a government ever, while the opposition certainly criticises his age a lot, I didn't get the impression that had much effect on voters. Another politician before him who banked on his young appearance at the time was Haider, and it worked pretty well for him too.
I cannot see a woman being able to enter politics at such an age and being accepted by the Austrian population, mainly due to the blatant sexism.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,238
Younger people tend to like younger people and older people tend to like older people. But even with middle aged and old people Baerbock seems to resonate pretty well and above expectations. I wish the 35-59 range would be split up more. I'm certain we would see strong approval ratings into the high 40s.


e_hmetxxias3mvq9skdy.jpeg


Most people are not caring for gender when it comes to politicians anymore. This is more of an Gerontokratie Problem than mysogynistic one. Even the right fucks from the AfD have their Alice Weidel and do not see that as a problem.

I hate when people carbon copy US politic problems and try to apply them here. A female US president might be a problem. But a German female chancellor?
Nobody gave a fuck about that for the last 16 years, but suddenly it is one?

Must say I'm not familiar with German politics

Baerbock isn't able to sway the masses, but her female predecessor was able to do so for 16 years.
It is a different situation to Austria, we had a female leader for a very long time now.
 

Sonix

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,965
Philip Rösler, Philip Amthor(what is it with that name? ;) ), Kevin Kühnert were or are constantly scrutinized for their age/inexperience...
Well for Philip Rösler it was enough to lead his party and be Vice-Chancellor, so I don't think he counts.
Kühnert and Amthor are not prime candidates for their party.
Amthor is first place on the CDU candidate list for MV, so he will have a guaranteed seat in the next period. Also, he basically had the choice to either take the lead of CDU MV and compete against Manuela Schwesig to become the next minister president of MV or stay in federal politics (which he chose, for now). Not to mention he had *actual, real* scandals that didn't hurt him at all (see: Augustus Intelligence, together with Maaßen). I would argue that Amthor is the prime example of the difference in handling between "young" (he is like, half the age of Baerbock) candidates.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,037
Baerbock isn't able to sway the masses, but her female predecessor was able to do so for 16 years.
It is a different situation to Austria, we had a female leader for a very long time now.
We were talking about younger female politicians, and I do believe there's a strong gender bias in that context, where existing stereotypes make it harder for people to see them objectively.
Naturally my experience is limited to my own country, but I doubt there's much cultural difference on this particular point between countries with such strong ties as Germany and Austria. That being, I will readily admit that Austria is very likely worse about sexism in politics than Germany.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
The whole Triell yesterday was a trainwreck.
Moderators who interrupted each other and candidates who acted like spoiled brats
and only were able to give non-answers without actually engaginbg with what was said. As if everythign they said was pre-planned.

I mean Jesus, the amount of shots you could have taken agains Scholz and Laschet were endless and nobody brought up
Hambi, Emetic, Spacing rules for wind turbines, the 100k lost jobs in solar and wind energy etc.
 

Team_Feisar

Member
Jan 16, 2018
5,359
Just saw Baerbock at an Grüne-Event and she has a much better presence and energy in person than in any TV-Interviews or Podcast i have seen her in.
It´s frustrating that she seemingly isn´t able to channel that energy in front of cameras.

I like her, but i also think Habeck would have been the better candidate and I´m bitter about the Greens gambling the election on what seems like ot haveb een a gender-driven decision (which i usually support but maybe not in this specific case). Baerbock was the more popular candidate at the time of the decision tho, if i remember correctly.
 

kVH2LpZd

Member
Apr 3, 2019
958
Well for Philip Rösler it was enough to lead his party and be Vice-Chancellor, so I don't think he counts.
Kühnert and Amthor are not prime candidates for their party.
Amthor is first place on the CDU candidate list for MV, so he will have a guaranteed seat in the next period. Also, he basically had the choice to either take the lead of CDU MV and compete against Manuela Schwesig to become the next minister president of MV or stay in federal politics (which he chose, for now). Not to mention he had *actual, real* scandals that didn't hurt him at all (see: Augustus Intelligence, together with Maaßen). I would argue that Amthor is the prime example of the difference in handling between "young" (he is like, half the age of Baerbock) candidates.
Not sure I am seeing the argument here. Baerbock leads her party as well? So how was she handled worse?
 

Bonejack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,654
Just saw Baerbock at an Grüne-Event and she has a much better presence and energy in person than in any TV-Interviews or Podcast i have seen her in.
It´s frustrating that she seemingly isn´t able to channel that energy in front of cameras.

I like her, but i also think Habeck would have been the better candidate and I´m bitter about the Greens gambling the election on what seems like ot haveb een a gender-driven decision (which i usually support but maybe not in this specific case). Baerbock was the more popular candidate at the time of the decision tho, if i remember correctly.

The Greens made one mistake, they didn't really fight back when the smear campaign hit mainstream. The damage is now done and yeah, that campaign imo played a massive part in the Greens' drop.

It sucks, but it is what it is right now.

Let's just hope they can recover a bit on actual election day or did already so via vote-per-mail and there's a healthy balance between SPD and Greens in a potential government under these two and another party.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,442
Triell in a nutshell:

Question: What is 1+1
Answer from the candidates: "I always said that the Question itself has absolute priority. I know we will find a solution if I am elected as chancellor. I am the best and the other candidates were always awful.
 

Team_Feisar

Member
Jan 16, 2018
5,359
The Greens made one mistake, they didn't really fight back when the smear campaign hit mainstream. The damage is now done and yeah, that campaign imo played a massive part in the Greens' drop.

It sucks, but it is what it is right now.

Let's just hope they can recover a bit on actual election day or did already so via vote-per-mail and there's a healthy balance between SPD and Greens in a potential government under these two and another party.

I´m not really sure about that, it´s hard to fight back against a smear campaign that is basically pushed ahead by all of the media and that has at least factually an ounce of truth to it.
The greens should have seen it coming that the election was gonna be dirty and a lot of the errors which made Baerbock vulnerable were completely unforced.

and yes, they handled it badly, still.
 
Last edited:

AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,553
Exactly, you have to wonder how naive they were.
Some stuff you can't prevent or foresee, but checking your own candidate by trying to find stuff that can be used against him is the absolute minimum one expects from a party.
But Habeck would also have gotten destroyed, the amount of stuff thrown against the Greens was on a completely new level even for Springer.
Who knows the exact outcome with him, but in the end Baerbock wasn't attacked for her errors, but what she/her party stands for.
 

kVH2LpZd

Member
Apr 3, 2019
958
Exactly, you have to wonder how naive they were.
Some stuff you can't prevent or foresee, but checking your own candidate by trying to find stuff that can be used against him is the absolute minimum one expects from a party.
But Habeck would also have gotten destroyed, the amount of stuff thrown against the Greens was on a completely new level even for Springer.
Who knows the exact outcome with him, but in the end Baerbock wasn't attacked for her errors, but what she/her party stands for.
This is why I hate the gender debate surrounding her.
They made enough mistakes themselves, both as a party and individually. They need to learn from that. If they take the easy excuse of sexism, they are doomed to repeat them.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,238
I honestly still think Baerbock was the better green candidate in the beginning. The right person to symbolise the needed change.
I like Habeck, intelligent person. But too much of a Schlaftablette sometimes imo.

Baerbock made two mayor mistakes imo.
1.) The "Nobody writes his own books anyway" defence. I remember even Habeck having trouble defending that statement at Lanz. Especially as Habeck is writing his books himself (as far as we know!).
2.) The older "Habeck is a farmer, I'm an international law expert" controversy
youtu.be

"Ich Völkerrecht - du Schweinebauer" Annalena Baerbock und Robert Habeck im NDR Interview | Schweine

Annalena Baerbock und Robert Habeck, Ausschnitt aus NDR Interview vom 23. November 2020.Hühner, Schweine, Kühe melken

Both big mistakes that helped to portrait her as arrogant, naive and weltfremd.

I'm sure Habeck would have made other mistakes and as people pointed out the smear campaigns against Baerbock were huge. But it is also undeniable that she fucked up several times on her own.

We were talking about younger female politicians, and I do believe there's a strong gender bias in that context, where existing stereotypes make it harder for people to see them objectively.
Naturally my experience is limited to my own country, but I doubt there's much cultural difference on this particular point between countries with such strong ties as Germany and Austria. That being, I will readily admit that Austria is very likely worse about sexism in politics than Germany.

We have an old(er) woman who had an exceptionall 42% of votes 8 years ago and is generally accepted and believed to be a strong leader.
And we have a younger woman who has trouble getting back over 20% currently and people do not think she is experienced enough.

The difference is age, not gender.
At least when it comes to this high position of power.

Which may very well be the opposite to Austria. I remember being actually surprised for you choosing Kurz back in 2017 (?) because of his age.
 
Last edited:

Team_Feisar

Member
Jan 16, 2018
5,359
Exactly, you have to wonder how naive they were.
Some stuff you can't prevent or foresee, but checking your own candidate by trying to find stuff that can be used against him is the absolute minimum one expects from a party.
But Habeck would also have gotten destroyed, the amount of stuff thrown against the Greens was on a completely new level even for Springer.
Who knows the exact outcome with him, but in the end Baerbock wasn't attacked for her errors, but what she/her party stands for.

Yeah, the Green Candiate would have been attacked anyway, but stuff like glossing over her CV a bit and not using citations in her book (which nobody would have missed if she hadn´t written it btw) were so unneccessary it kills me. Not that her "scandals" are anywhere near the level of deserving the kind of shit she got for it, or the legit criminal stuff Laschet and Scholz have pulled. But still, unforced Errors sting the most.
I guess it would have been harder to get the character assassination going without those things.
 

Sonix

Prophet of Regret
Member
Aug 3, 2020
1,965
If you want a smear campaign, you can get it. It's that simple. If they didn't find these citiations from her book (not thesis!) they would have used anything else. Maybe even fabricated something.

Example how that would go?


Also interesting how we keep talking about her book months after the story "broke", while Scholz' investigation is basically forgottten. Really makes you think how popular media and agenda setting are influencing the opinion on candidates...
 

crazillo

Member
Apr 5, 2018
8,310
I don't think anyone gets spared from smear attacks, honestly. You get screened to the last 0,1% of what you have done in life. I've read that some unpublished stories about Söder would have been uncovered had he become the candidate of CDU/CSU. Also, social media and YouTubers have a lot of influence these days and the backlash against CDU/CSU there is strong. It might not be a source much used by older votes though.

My most reasonable explanation is that Germans don't really like radical change. They do think the country is doing rather well (I don't necessarily agree), though some of its backwardness in the Corona pandemic has shocked people. They don't exactly trust CDU/CSU or SPD to improve both of these things given their long tenures though; also the Greens are part of many local governments, and the dysfunctions of that crisis were not always only due to the federal government. People enjoyed Merkel's calm personality and sincere work ethos, and they project that the most into Scholz. And yes, older people seem to value life experience a lot more than young voters, so when Baerbock did those small mistakes, it was basically over for her. It still feels to me as if Baerbock's book, her handling of it and Laschet's smiles were more important to the election than any of the contents of the parties, which is bonkers to me, but oh well. While climate change is often regarded the most important topic of the election in polls, I am not sure how old people see this (I'd assume the support for the Greens among young people correlates strongly with the "we can only act now for when we will be old" stance that our generation has). I think older people still quickly say "but the economy", "but my pension", "but I want to keep driving my car and eat my meat" etc. Scholz is sort of more in between and I think that explains a lot of his success. lMO the Greens still have to choose their government options carefully because the Green voter base will not accept half-baked negotiation results and could turn away from them, I think.
 
Last edited:

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,238

Yes and no.

Modern german society can change dramatically, sometimes even over night. Please do not forget that this was a divided country, not that long ago. With two completely, different political systems.

Fact is that Merkel is leaving behind a new kind of power vacuum. Not matter how people vote, Merkel will be gone. The pandemic, climate change, Afghanistan and the flooding reminded people that change is needed and the post-merkel vacuum allows that to happen. It gives the German society the change to re-orientate, take a deeper look into set mechanics.

From my German view, I do not understand the Scholz is copying Merkel view that I often find in foreign press. Scholz was always calm and rational, it's literally who he is. This new, German republic is only 72 years old now and for 52 years it was ruled by CDU. SPD leading, even in the 60+ age group marks a huge shift. Greens even being able to have a Kanzlerkandidat is also huge. There never were three chancellor-candidates before. Imagine the u.s. having suddenly a third party...

With all respect to Merkel, and to her achievements on the global scale. Her domestic policy was always very conservative, anti unions, her liberalisation of the banking system allowed for the crashes we had a couple years ago to happen in the first place, she abstained from voting pro same-gender marriage (while here party mostly voted against it) etc.
Boring topics, but important topics to understand that there are significant differences in how SPD and CDU view certain things. I've read an article recently about German bankers complaining about no longer being competitive on the global market. Because they are too restricted. SPD is clearly saying that they won't change anything mayor, especially not after the lessons learned from the mentioned bankcrash, while CDU and FDP are open for deregulating banks again.

Calling Scholz and Merkel similar is unfair, when there are fundamental, important differences. But those differences are not emotional or accompanied by big words.
SPD and CDU certainly adjusted to each other over the last 12 years. But they are very different in nature. SPD is the oldest party this country has, they already fought for worker rights during the German imperial ages and the emperor even baned them, they openly fought the nazis etc. While the CDU roots are set in the Zentrum Partei... Not so cool guys if you ask me. The difference in founding DNA is still noticeable.

As you said, the older generation may be afraid of the greens. Though I have meet many of them supporting the ideas, because they want a good future for their own children and their grandkids. And even they are swaying away from CDU, which is targeting them like crazy. Armin Laschet described himself as being steadfast against the wind of change.

Germany is boring, but the wind of change is there. It's just not accompanied by fireworks, loud music and grand gestures. We learned to avoid those.
And from my, boring German pov: Other nations should maybe start avoiding emotions during elections as well.


edit:
and about the Greens ruling in local governments. They are also ruling the second richest German state: baden württemberg.
Though some people will correct me that BW-Greens are not usual greens.
screenshot2021-09-13a9nkz6.png
 
Last edited:

AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,553
I don't think anyone gets spared from smear attacks, honestly. You get screened to the last 0,1% of what you have done in life. I've read that some unpublished stories about Söder would have been uncovered had he become the candidate of CDU/CSU. Also, social media and YouTubers have a lot of influence these days and the backlash against CDU/CSU there is strong. It might not be a source much used by older votes though.
The difference is not that others get spared, the difference is that right wing media and the Wirtschaftslobby will blow everything out of proportion and keep repeating it.
There is no left or green equivalent to Springer, when Baerbock had her plagiarism affair you basically had daily news every time the guy published another sentence, many of them are even 08/15 sentences like a numeration of skyscrapers and their height.
Bild back then basically didn't do anything else than publish page one articles, videos, comments etc. against Baerbock/Greens.
Contrast that to what happened when it was revealed that Laschet also copied in his book.
They use everything against her - when she canceled an interview with them a week ago they published a blank site in the paper stating that she cancelled while Scholz and Laschet didn't and listed all the other Greens who gave them an interview in the past.
It's a 24/7 never ending smear campaign and Bild/Bild.de is still and by a huge margin the most read newspaper/newssite in Germany.

My most reasonable explanation is that Germans don't really like radical change. They do think the country is doing rather well, though some of its backwardness in the Corona pandemic has shocked people. They don't exactly trust CDU/CSU or SPD to improve both of these things given their long tenures though; also the Greens are part of many local governments, and the dysfunctions of that crisis were not always only due to the federal government. People enjoyed Merkel's calm personality and sincere work ethos, and they project that the most into Scholz. And yes, older people seem to value life experience a lot more than young voters, so when Baerbock did those small mistakes, it was basically over for her. It still feels to me as if Baerbock's book, her handling of it and Laschet's smiles were more important to the election than any of the contents of the parties, which is bonkers to me, but oh well. While climate change is often regarded the most important topic of the election in polls, I am not sure how old people see this (I'd assume the support for the Greens among young people correlates strongly with the "we can only act now for when we will be old" stance that our generation has). I think older people still quickly say "but the economy", "but my pension", "but I want to keep driving my car and eat my meat" etc. Scholz is sort of more in between and I think that explains a lot of his success. lMO the Greens still have to choose their government options carefully because the Green voter base will not accept half-baked negotiation results and could turn away from them, I think.
The thing is that the Greens already were at 26%, the same level as the Union back then, but then the "scandals" happened.
Personal things are more imported, because there you can attack Baerbock there (and it generates more clicks), the moment you start with political stuff (she never was in a high political position up to that point to be fair though) it gets bad and i mean really bad for the other two.
 

cyba89

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,659
The thing is that the Greens already were at 26%, the same level as the Union back then, but then the "scandals" happened.
Personal things are more imported, because there you can attack Baerbock there (and it generates more clicks), the moment you start with political stuff (she never was in a high political position up to that point to be fair though) it gets bad and i mean really bad for the other two.
Polls are polls. They can alway fluctate as the elections come closer.
The 26% for the Greens was during a time the CDU/CSU nearly imploded thanks to their own internal Laschet/Söder fights. People were fed up about that because the pandemic was a way more pressing issue and the Greens staged their chancellor candidate nomination way more professionial.
It was a perfect storm for the Greens at that time that calmed down again. I honestly doubt many people base their voting decision on some fimble Plagiats- or Lebenslaufaffäre regardless what the media makes of it.

The Greens mostly have themselves to blame because they don't manage to convey their ideas for the big issues regarding climate crisis well in their election campaign so far.
 

AmFreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,553
Polls are polls. They can alway fluctate as the elections come closer.
The 26% for the Greens was during a time the CDU/CSU nearly imploded thanks to their own internal Laschet/Söder fights. People were fed up about that because the pandemic was a way more pressing issue and the Greens staged their chancellor candidate nomination way more professionial.
It was a perfect storm for the Greens at that time that calmed down again. I honestly doubt many people base their voting decision on some fimble Plagiats- or Lebenslaufaffäre regardless what the media makes of it.

The Greens mostly have themselves to blame because they don't manage to convey their ideas for the big issues regarding climate crisis well in their election campaign so far.
This wasn't a perfect storm - the Union polls far worse now than they did back then.
The Union kept falling after the 26% for the Greens, together with the Greens.
The last few months revolved completly around the personal missteps of Baerbock and Laschet, while no one gave a shit about Scholz, programs or plans.
You could directly see the effect of these missteps and scandals in the polls.
A big part of Union voters first moved to the Greens, because of the scandals of the Union and Laschet.
When Baerbock was then continusly in the news with her missteps and scandals, while the same was kept happening for Laschet those voters moved to the SPD.
Just look at the Triell polls, no one there objectively rates the candidates by what they saw, but by their preferences that's why Scholz is so far ahead, that's why Baerbock won for 52% in the U35 bracket.
 

Iggelich

Member
Aug 31, 2019
288
Polls are polls. They can alway fluctate as the elections come closer.
The 26% for the Greens was during a time the CDU/CSU nearly imploded thanks to their own internal Laschet/Söder fights. People were fed up about that because the pandemic was a way more pressing issue and the Greens staged their chancellor candidate nomination way more professionial.
It was a perfect storm for the Greens at that time that calmed down again. I honestly doubt many people base their voting decision on some fimble Plagiats- or Lebenslaufaffäre regardless what the media makes of it.

The Greens mostly have themselves to blame because they don't manage to convey their ideas for the big issues regarding climate crisis well in their election campaign so far.
I don't know if anyone is going to base their voting decision directly on the Baerbock 'affairs', but many people claim that those affairs show a lack of credibility, and that's why they shy away from voting Grüne.

I don't think Grüne have mainly themselves to blame, because I doubt that facts can persuade someone who got to a position based on feelings, and that's what the smear campaign managed to do. Major blame lies with journalists of the mainstream press, who facillitated the smear campaign (as with the people launching it in the first place of course).
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,238
Did anybody watch the "Vierkampf" yesterday?
FDP, Linke and especially AfD make me so angry at times and why was the CSU even there. They are running with CDU and Laschet is representing them on Bundesebene.
The show was such a disaster.


The last few months revolved completly around the personal missteps of Baerbock and Laschet, while no one gave a shit about Scholz, programs or plans.
You could directly see the effect of these missteps and scandals in the polls.

Yes, but I'd like to add something:
While Baerbock and Laschet tried to deny, hide or downplay their own problems. Scholz did something else.
He never directly answered and immediately countered with:"That's what I am actively doing about the problem."

Wirecard? I made sure to reform the system by (followed by a bunch of logical sounding steps)
Cum Ex? I did (bulletpoints)

It is surprisingly effective.


And to be fair, some of the Problems are way more complicated like the FIU or Wirecard in general. So many CDU politicians have their own dirt hands in this.
Still, his lacking ability to remember specific details infront of hearings is as telling as the missing Emails and Messages from Andy "let's waste money and move the rest of it to Bavaria" Scheuer.

And while talking about Andys; do not even make me start about SPD's own PimmelAndy from Hamburg.
 

Xater

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,937
Germany
I hate Lindner and I don't ever want to hear what the AFD has to say, because it doesn't matter. So no, I didn't watch that. It sounds like a nightmare.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
Did anybody watch the "Vierkampf" yesterday?
FDP, Linke and especially AfD make me so angry at times and why was the CSU even there. They are running with CDU and Laschet is representing them on Bundesebene.
The show was such a disaster.




Yes, but I'd like to add something:
While Baerbock and Laschet tried to deny, hide or downplay their own problems. Scholz did something else.
He never directly answered and immediately countered with:"That's what I am actively doing about the problem."

Wirecard? I made sure to reform the system by (followed by a bunch of logical sounding steps)
Cum Ex? I did (bulletpoints)

It is surprisingly effective.


And to be fair, some of the Problems are way more complicated like the FIU or Wirecard in general. So many CDU politicians have their own dirt hands in this.
Still, his lacking ability to remember specific details infront of hearings is as telling as the missing Emails and Messages from Andy "let's waste money and move the rest of it to Bavaria" Scheuer.

And while talking about Andys; do not even make me start about SPD's own PimmelAndy from Hamburg.
Like I read somewhere else:
The scandals of Scholz are too complex for the majority to graps, so they don't care about them.
Unlike with Bearbock and Laschet which are easy to understand or see.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,238
Like I read somewhere else:
The scandals of Scholz are too complex for the majority to graps, so they don't care about them.
Unlike with Bearbock and Laschet which are easy to understand or see.

And it is true:
Baerbock didn't write her book herself is more easy to follow then a multinational scandal about organised financial fraud, market manipulation, financial infidelity. It involves crown witnesses, Russia-connections, fake death certificates, corrupt tax officers, private connections between CDU members and ex-CDU members working for Wirecard, luxury Hotels (hi @Amthor at this point, the corrupt f***), Wirecard hiring actors to look busy during "investigations"... It's interesting enough to become a movie.

And still, as much as I'm understanding it (and that's in the barely, probably more not at all category) the CDU appears to me more dirty than Scholz in this. Still, just like with the FIU it is ammunition used by the CDU. Because accusations also work in Bulletpoint from: Wahlkampf eben.
There are way better things that can be thrown at Scholz imo.
 

Isee

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,238
I didn't even know that foster children are obliged to payback the Jugendamt. Fucking hell! Fucking CDU! Fucking Capitalism. I'm disgusted by our German state.
🤯

www.br.de

Pflegekinder sollen künftig weniger an den Staat abgeben müssen

Lohnt sich Leistung? Für Jugendliche in Pflegefamilien oder Einrichtungen kaum – wenn man aufs Konto schaut. Sie mussten bis zu drei Viertel ihres Einkommens ans Jugendamt zahlen. Ein neues Gesetz soll das ändern, geht vielen aber nicht weit genug.

Wir tragen ja auch die Kosten einer Unterbringung", sagte etwa der Abgeordnete Marcus Weinberg (CDU) bei der Debatte im Bundestag letzte Woche. Außerdem würden auch Jugendliche in leiblichen Familien häufig Kostgeld an ihre Eltern abtreten.
 

Bedlam

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,536
I didn't even know that foster children are obliged to payback the Jugendamt. Fucking hell! Fucking CDU! Fucking Capitalism. I'm disgusted by our German state.
🤯

www.br.de

Pflegekinder sollen künftig weniger an den Staat abgeben müssen

Lohnt sich Leistung? Für Jugendliche in Pflegefamilien oder Einrichtungen kaum – wenn man aufs Konto schaut. Sie mussten bis zu drei Viertel ihres Einkommens ans Jugendamt zahlen. Ein neues Gesetz soll das ändern, geht vielen aber nicht weit genug.
That's so very "Christian" of them.

Absolutely disgusting.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
I didn't even know that foster children are obliged to payback the Jugendamt. Fucking hell! Fucking CDU! Fucking Capitalism. I'm disgusted by our German state.
🤯

www.br.de

Pflegekinder sollen künftig weniger an den Staat abgeben müssen

Lohnt sich Leistung? Für Jugendliche in Pflegefamilien oder Einrichtungen kaum – wenn man aufs Konto schaut. Sie mussten bis zu drei Viertel ihres Einkommens ans Jugendamt zahlen. Ein neues Gesetz soll das ändern, geht vielen aber nicht weit genug.
It's the same inhuman bullshit with Hartz IV.
A system designed in a way so that nobody can escape it.
 

MoogleWizard

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,775
Dieser Thread ist so seltsam. Germans discussing German politics and elections with each other - in English, all while linking German-language articles and videos which no non-German speaker can understand, and when there's a word that has no English equivalent, it's simply used in the English sentences. It reminds me of a dubbed film on TV, like a Chinese film about Chinese people living in Shanghai speaking dubbed German to each other. I would participate more if this wouldn't feel so weird and unnatural to me. ;P