• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,480
I'm not sure how sega can grow in the worldwide market, their current ip offerings are either niche pc games or niche Japanese games (or sonic). They need a true overhaul of their game development arms/studios to have any chance of being a major publisher again.

Start by understanding what it takes to make a good Sonic game, then work outwards from there.

Increased UX maturity would be a big step in the right direction. Put your ideas in front of players and work together to understand what players actually enjoy, what they want from the series, what's working, what isn't. Put the older games in front of players, ask what they like about them, put games like Forces in front of players and make an effort to understand - in fine grained detail - why the games design just doesn't work. Look at what their competitors are doing, what makes people like those games, instead of Sonic games? Reshuffle management at their studios. Promote open communication between their developers and development teams.

Sonic Mania is fantastic but they lucked out on having Christian Whitehead, someone that does understand what it takes to make a good sonic game, willing to do the work. When the guy that best understands the Sonic series is someone that reverse engineered the fun out of the game (Christian started by making Sonic fan games), then that's a sign that your internal studios have some relatively pervasive problems.
 

War3333

Member
Oct 27, 2017
127
People are delusional if they believe that Nintendo will stop producing games on same of their key franchises just tp make space to some forgotten sega IP. They will keep pouring Sonic, persona and yakuzas games while killing the PC centric IP.

No one on their right mind will want Nintendo to buy Sega, unless they still want to see Nintendo win even more a war that was finished 20 years ago
I think that make more sense to say that probably Nintendo will never buy any software house that it's not beneficial to their core business.
I don't even think Nintendo will ever merge with a company that have a big interest in multiplats, not before there is a plan to go third party.
Like when it partnered with DeNa for going mobile.
 

Rasec

Member
Oct 30, 2017
774
Portugal
AM2 did do the 3DS Mirai games so them doing something on Switch wouldn't be that unexpected.
I hope so.

I know the deluxe edition of project diva future tone come out recently but i think that after the persona dancing games come out there should be some news on the next miku game and capitalize on the switch huge sucess on japan.
 

RalchAC

Member
Oct 27, 2017
825
Because most of the value Sega can provide is useless to Sony or Nintendo.

On consoles Sega practically has only sonic which itself is quite damaged brand wise and it's not like Nintendo or Sony have any trouble creating ips that sell well in Japan and mainland Europe.

For ms it's a whole new game. They gain some ips with penetration on those markets, they get a infinitely more recognizable brand than Xbox in Japan, alongside years of great relationship with creators. Not to mention Sega Europe that has some valuable Pc properties that would also fit well for ms and Sony or Nintendo would have no use for.

I don't see how buying SEGA will benefit Microsoft in the bigger picture, especially when you consider that out of the 3 hardware manufacturers they're the one with the most "blockbuster" mentality. Yakuza, Persona, Valkyria Chronicles and Shin Megami Tensei aren't the kind of games that push a console. SEGA doesn't really have any IP that is big enough to actually cause a difference in Japan. At best, they'll go back to Xbox 360 level of sales. Persona 5 sales in Japan aren't that far from what Tales of used to sell in the beginning of last gen and Tales of Vesperia sold one third of what Abyss did on the PS2.

Yakuza, Shin Megami Tensei and everything else under their umbrella sells worse than Persona. Sonic doesn't really do that well in Japan.

Microsoft doesn't really have anything to do with a subsidiary like Atlus USA, which is a small publisher that mostly localizes niche Japanese games.

They'd get some IPs that do well on PC and put them as exclusives on the Windows Store, and would have Creative Assembly (which developed both Halo Wars games) under their umbrella. But I don't think they'd actually get much more of value out of it, TBH. And those games won't really work that well with a controller, so they wouldn't be able to push their current "play anywhere" strategy and release them in X1 without significant changes which... well, the established audience of those games may not take that well.
 

sibarraz

Prophet of Regret - One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
18,132
I think that make more sense to say that probably Nintendo will never buy any software house that it's not beneficial to their core business.
I don't even think Nintendo will ever merge with a company that have a big interest in multiplats, not before there is a plan to go third party.
Like when it partnered with DeNa for going mobile.

Yeah you are right

Sega and Nintendo relationship is fine as it is now, they still get the IP that will sell well on their consoles, no need for mergers or buyouts
 

kappa_krey

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
630
I don't see how buying SEGA will benefit Microsoft in the bigger picture, especially when you consider that out of the 3 hardware manufacturers they're the one with the most "blockbuster" mentality. Yakuza, Persona, Valkyria Chronicles and Shin Megami Tensei aren't the kind of games that push a console. SEGA doesn't really have any IP that is big enough to actually cause a difference in Japan. At best, they'll go back to Xbox 360 level of sales. Persona 5 sales in Japan aren't that far from what Tales of used to sell in the beginning of last gen and Tales of Vesperia sold one third of what Abyss did on the PS2.

Yakuza, Shin Megami Tensei and everything else under their umbrella sells worse than Persona. Sonic doesn't really do that well in Japan.

Microsoft doesn't really have anything to do with a subsidiary like Atlus USA, which is a small publisher that mostly localizes niche Japanese games.

They'd get some IPs that do well on PC and put them as exclusives on the Windows Store, and would have Creative Assembly (which developed both Halo Wars games) under their umbrella. But I don't think they'd actually get much more of value out of it, TBH. And those games won't really work that well with a controller, so they wouldn't be able to push their current "play anywhere" strategy and release them in X1 without significant changes which... well, the established audience of those games may not take that well.

P5's sales have to do more w/ the PS4 as a whole not being as good a fit for Japan as the Switch seems to be, than anything about P5's appeal as a whole, even if it is a niche series (tho in frank terms, everything is a "niche", it's just a question of how big or small that niche may be). You're looking at these games in isolation, and within using other series as measuring sticks, and not considering budgeting/marketing/internal projection expectations etc. A game that does 1/5 the numbers of another game doesn't make the smaller game a poor performer right off the bat, unless it had the budget and competed in the same market/niche as the game selling 5x more (and had a comparable marketing blitz).

MS buying Sega (which I don't think will happen, or should happen) isn't about finding one big mega-franchise, as that's actually been a big part of MS's image problem. It's about having a catalog of games that on their own may not bring massive Halo/COD level sales, but collectively bring in a sizable amount of sales, and profit if budgeted properly. I don't know what MS's budgets tend to be for their games but they could certainly do with putting more mid-tier budgets to certain properties and a lot of Sega's IP would be a perfect fit for that space which their library sorely lacks atm.

Yeah you are right

Sega and Nintendo relationship is fine as it is now, they still get the IP that will sell well on their consoles, no need for mergers or buyouts

Basically how I feel; if anything Sega should try collaborating with them more than anything, but there's no need for mergers or buyouts; from the report seems like Sega themselves are doing well and seeing growth, it's the Sammy side that stagnated a bit, and that might just be a temporary phase, markets-in-flux kind of thing.
 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
I don't see how buying SEGA will benefit Microsoft in the bigger picture, especially when you consider that out of the 3 hardware manufacturers they're the one with the most "blockbuster" mentality. Yakuza, Persona, Valkyria Chronicles and Shin Megami Tensei aren't the kind of games that push a console. SEGA doesn't really have any IP that is big enough to actually cause a difference in Japan. At best, they'll go back to Xbox 360 level of sales. Persona 5 sales in Japan aren't that far from what Tales of used to sell in the beginning of last gen and Tales of Vesperia sold one third of what Abyss did on the PS2.

Yakuza, Shin Megami Tensei and everything else under their umbrella sells worse than Persona. Sonic doesn't really do that well in Japan.

Microsoft doesn't really have anything to do with a subsidiary like Atlus USA, which is a small publisher that mostly localizes niche Japanese games.

They'd get some IPs that do well on PC and put them as exclusives on the Windows Store, and would have Creative Assembly (which developed both Halo Wars games) under their umbrella. But I don't think they'd actually get much more of value out of it, TBH. And those games won't really work that well with a controller, so they wouldn't be able to push their current "play anywhere" strategy and release them in X1 without significant changes which... well, the established audience of those games may not take that well.
Because for Ms in the long run it's about gamepass, not xbox sales.

Which means that in the future they no longer need to rely on all games being blockbusters. They need to have a few blockbusters to draw people into the service and lots of smaller and diverse quality titles to keep people subscribing. Sega could provide that in spades (they used to for their consoles)

Sega also used to have a huge breadth of development teams, all with a creator behind, some of which already works with Ms every now and then (such as the PD creator). Ms could use that contact network to start a few development studios in Japan and bring those creators back. Nonetheless using Sega as a base of operations there would be far more preferable than what they have now regarding courting developers and publishers.
 

Lukas Taves

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
5,713
Brazil
When you put it that way, it does start to make more sense. It'd add some much-needed diversity to Microsoft's library; the problem is we already see what MS does w/ studios they buy, just look at Rare. They're only just now getting back to doing something that's seriously catching attention and that's been after over a decade of Viva Pinata, Nuts 'n Bolts, PD Zero etc (the Viva games are good tho and while I haven't played it, there's at least something of a fanbase for Nuts 'n Bolts).

The ONLY way a Sega/Microsoft relationship would work is if MS allowed Sega's studios their creative freedom, financially funded them reasonably and ended some of their ridiculous deadlines for the Sonic games. They would also need to get out of the mentality that every 1st/2nd-party game needs to do COD numbers, that has simply never been and never will be the case. The point of 1st party titles is to add variety and value to the platform's library, draw as many diverse eyes to it as possible, and have a nice and balanced ecosystem that is overall healthy and modestly profitable, as well as to build audiences for third parties to recognize and tailor their support to.

If anything Ms I'd say Ms problems with Rare was being extreme on both sides. At first they gave Rare too much creative and management freedom, and when that didn't worked they gave any. But that was going from different managements with different goals. Right now I think Ms is in their best position to buy studios or create new partnerships: With game pass they are more dependent on the quality and diversity of their portfolio as a whole than the success of a individual game.
 

dlauv

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,515
SEGA Europe doing all of the heavy lifting? They make my PC happy, at least.

I guess SEGA Forever isn't doing very well, lol, unless this is specifically about the Japanese market.

I don't think anyone would want to buy out these people.
 

kappa_krey

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
630
If anything Ms I'd say Ms problems with Rare was being extreme on both sides. At first they gave Rare too much creative and management freedom, and when that didn't worked they gave any. But that was going from different managements with different goals. Right now I think Ms is in their best position to buy studios or create new partnerships: With game pass they are more dependent on the quality and diversity of their portfolio as a whole than the success of a individual game.

That makes some sense; would have been ideal for them to take a median approach but as you say, there were big shifts in team dynamics of Xbox division going from OG to 360 and again from 360 to XBO.

If you frame it in the context of Game Pass, I think Sega going at least w/ a more strengthened collaborative effort w/ MS would actually work out very well. Something like Game Pass gives a good opportunity for solid games that some people don't feel have enough content to justify a $60 price tag, but are still heads and shoulders above indie games in terms of ambition and tech to go for the typical price cheaper indie games do. So maybe Game Pass would be a good fit for home ports of Sega's arcade games, for example, especially if Sega became a subsidiary of Microsoft.

But like a few others have been saying, they're nowhere near in a position where that's a realistic proposition, as it seems like Sega themselves are doing pretty well and the finance report seems more about some of Sammy's side, which might just be a slight temporary thing, or them being like how Square-Enix were with the Tomb Raider reboot and having unrealistically high expectations for performance. Dunno; someone more versed and following the business side of things there could elaborate.

All I want right now is some more footage on Sega World Drivers Championship because that game is looking gorgeous, and unless there's a home port, I'm never gonna get to play it :(.

SEGA Europe doing all of the heavy lifting? They make my PC happy, at least.

I guess SEGA Forever isn't doing very well, lol, unless this is specifically about the Japanese market.

I don't think anyone would want to buy out these people.

Maybe try reading the OP before posting?

And the buyout talks are unwarranted; people making doom and gloom about anything that even slightly mentions a dip, especially if it's tied to Sega (in this case it's tied to the Sammy side it seems).
 

VinylCassette64

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
2,434
Sonic Mania is fantastic but they lucked out on having Christian Whitehead, someone that does understand what it takes to make a good sonic game, willing to do the work. When the guy that best understands the Sonic series is someone that reverse engineered the fun out of the game (Christian started by making Sonic fan games), then that's a sign that your internal studios have some relatively pervasive problems.

Saying Sega lucked out by getting Whitehead and his team to make the game would be implying Sega were willing to make another classic Sonic game in the first place. Mania got off the ground because Whitehead approached Sega with his Sonic Discovery pitch, rather than the other way around. It's also worth noting Whitehead and Simon Thomley (to use Stealth's real name) had their proposal for a Sonic 3&K remaster denied sometime in 2014, not very long before Mania was reportedly greenlit (and according to a SegaBits interview, there were other pitches for Sonic games they came up with during that time that were turned down too). I think had the Boom spinoff series not turned out to be hot steaming turds and Sega undergoing restructuring, Mania wouldn't exist at all.

If anyone lucked out, I'd say it was Whitehead for Sega not only saying yes, but giving him and the rest of his development team almost complete free reign to design the game as they saw fit (inclusion of and selection of remixed levels notwithstanding).
 

Alek

Games User Researcher
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
8,480
Saying Sega lucked out by getting Whitehead and his team to make the game would be implying Sega were willing to make another classic Sonic game in the first place. Mania got off the ground because Whitehead approached Sega with his Sonic Discovery pitch, rather than the other way around. It's also worth noting Whitehead and Simon Thomley (to use Stealth's real name) had their proposal for a Sonic 3&K remaster denied sometime in 2014, not very long before Mania was reportedly greenlit (and according to a SegaBits interview, there were other pitches for Sonic games they came up with during that time that were turned down too). I think had the Boom spinoff series not turned out to be hot steaming turds and Sega undergoing restructuring, Mania wouldn't exist at all.

If anyone lucked out, I'd say it was Whitehead for Sega not only saying yes, but giving him and the rest of his development team almost complete free reign to design the game as they saw fit (inclusion of and selection of remixed levels notwithstanding).

I mean, it's a good relationship for both of them, but the benefit to Whitehead is only appreciated by one person, the benefit to Sega is company wide, they get a good game out for their brand.

I'm sure the relative benefit is much greater for Whitehead as he's just one person and the impact on his life must have been huge, but Sega gained an incredible amount from the relationship overall. And that's why I believe they're lucky to have Whitehead, there are a lot of people willing to make fangames, but not many of them are good.
 

petran79

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
I wonder how's Sega's share in the arcade and pachinko market compared to the 90s. Are they top or others have the lead?
 

Heath V

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,634
The merging never ends man...

I think that it comes from the latent desire for us to see Sega return to greatness. Sammy couldn't do it. So we hope that company X can bring them back.

Blue Skies....

Blue Blue Skies.

The blue skies statement gives me such feelings, I miss that era of Gaming.
 

Dooble

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,469
I wonder how's Sega's share in the arcade and pachinko market compared to the 90s. Are they top or others have the lead?

Sega wasn't in the pachinko market in the 90's because Sega Sammy did not exist.

As for the arcade market. Bandai Namco is by far the biggest. One must not forget they have the biggest anime licenses of all time (Gundam, Dragon Ball etc.). Sega is second, but they have have higher expenses because they operate the highest amount of chains and thus develop and support the highest amount of games.
Not sure how it was the 90's. But Sega and Namco were always rivals.
 

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,041
If anything Ms I'd say Ms problems with Rare was being extreme on both sides. At first they gave Rare too much creative and management freedom, and when that didn't worked they gave any. But that was going from different managements with different goals. Right now I think Ms is in their best position to buy studios or create new partnerships: With game pass they are more dependent on the quality and diversity of their portfolio as a whole than the success of a individual game.

Rare's IPs also do not have big appeal, the best thing they have going for them is they are family friendly. SEGA's IPs though have appeal in Japan and a bigger draw in the whole of Europe
 

kappa_krey

Banned
Jan 24, 2018
630
Sega wasn't in the pachinko market in the 90's because Sega Sammy did not exist.

As for the arcade market. Bandai Namco is by far the biggest. One must not forget they have the biggest anime licenses of all time (Gundam, Dragon Ball etc.). Sega is second, but they have have higher expenses because they operate the highest amount of chains and thus develop and support the highest amount of games.
Not sure how it was the 90's. But Sega and Namco were always rivals.

Bandai Namco? The only stuff of theirs I've seen arcade releases for of late are Tekken 7 (years back), and maybe one of the Mario Kart arcade ports. I didn't think they were still making Gundam games for the arcade.

The blue skies statement gives me such feelings, I miss that era of Gaming.

Courtesy Dooble:

DF-fyyUXoAA-BIs.jpg


Ocean-blue skies are back! Can't wait to see more of this one.
 

Deleted member 14002

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,121
How about you bring PSO2 to the west as a F2P MMO on consoles?

That or leverage your massive catalogue of IP that hasn't been touched.
 

SephLuis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,343
I hope so.

I know the deluxe edition of project diva future tone come out recently but i think that after the persona dancing games come out there should be some news on the next miku game and capitalize on the switch huge sucess on japan.

I would prefer a new and completely different entry in th Switch. Mostly because those assymetrical controls make rhythm games a true pain.
 

Dooble

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,469
I also want a new entry but i guess since they are probably busy with the persona games i doubt a new game would come so soon.

The Persona rhythm games and Miku games are made by different people. Altough I do wonder what direction Sega could take with Miku. Future Tone DX seems like the end to be all, with tons of songs. Is Miku losing opularity lately, I don't know about this...
 

PSqueak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,464

Logically, they're the ones who need them the most, the Xbox brand is the one with no mascot with kiddy appeal that is also exclusive (they would be crazy to make minecraft exclusive to Xbox), that problem would be easily solved by making Sonic the hedgehog an Xbox exclusive.

Not that gamers would be cool with that, but MS would have tons to gain from it, Nintendo and Sony do not have such dire need.
 

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,041
Logically, they're the ones who need them the most, the Xbox brand is the one with no mascot with kiddy appeal that is also exclusive (they would be crazy to make minecraft exclusive to Xbox), that problem would be easily solved by making Sonic the hedgehog an Xbox exclusive.

Not that gamers would be cool with that, but MS would have tons to gain from it, Nintendo and Sony do not have such dire need.

1. Banjo
2. That wouldn't even make the Top 20 reasons why MS would benefit from buying SEGA
 

Deleted member 3010

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,974
They should basically be aware of what people want and produce it.

Sonic Mania was a step in the right direction, hell, it's still on the E-Shop's best sellers in Canada ever since it came out. Ironically, it was made externally by passionate fans.

Then you have Sonic Forces, made internally by none other than Sonic Team and the game sucks so fucking much. The physic is broken and the controls are shitty. There's like 3 levels out of 30 that are worth checking out. Super Sonic is paid DLC. The Avatar stages songs are earsores when a part of Sonic that stayed consistently good over the years was the music. It truly is an historical failure and a real headscratcher that the game ended up in this state when the last game was Generations, which was praised by the fanbase.

Sonic Team needs to be replaced for new blood, or replace them all for Christian Whitehead and his team. Except Jun Senoue, because his music is still legit. Bring back Crush 40!
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
Microsoft needs talented studios right now - a problem Sega doesn't solve. If they bought Sega they'd have an even bigger collection of IP collecting dust in the basement.
Creative Assembly, Amplitude, Atlus, Relic and Sports Interactive are all very talented studios.

I would also rather that every one of those studios be somewhat independent, and would absolutely fucking hate it if they were constrained by Microsoft, who would restrict them to Xbox and UWP. Microsoft buying Sega would destroy their large PC division in no time.
 

SgtCobra

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,865
Logically, they're the ones who need them the most, the Xbox brand is the one with no mascot with kiddy appeal that is also exclusive (they would be crazy to make minecraft exclusive to Xbox), that problem would be easily solved by making Sonic the hedgehog an Xbox exclusive.

Not that gamers would be cool with that, but MS would have tons to gain from it, Nintendo and Sony do not have such dire need.
But why are the only choices Microsoft, Sony or Nintendo? The other replies also brought them up, sure it's the most logical option between the three I guess as they need Sega the most. But I prefer them to get bought by a third party if that day ever comes, it doesn't even have to be a gaming related company, I'm not really comfortable about a console manufacturer making such an aquisition.
 

SilverX

Member
Jan 21, 2018
13,041
-Banjo? Yeah, you see how that worked out for them and how Rare is now.
-Having sonic as an exclusive would be a monumental score for the Xbox brand.

1. As you now see, I pointed out that not having a family friendly mascot character isn't the problem. They do with Banjo, it just hasn't done anything for them.
2. For merchandising? Sure, MS would make out very big owning Sonic. But Sonic game sales wouldn't be that much of a game changer. The key is other SEGA franchises.

Do you know how much momentum Game Pass would get from the dedicated gamers if they announced a new Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi, NiGHTS, etc? And none of those have to be AAA games yet they would sell a lot of subscriptions