Ixian

Member
Nov 25, 2018
298
Yeah, what can I do about it. It's your mess, you fucked up, you clean up.
Europe tried to help you avoid the shit for the past 3 years, you refused it all.

I feel like I've seen this attitude a few times from Americans and some continental Europeans...I'm sure it's lovely to simplify it down to this, but the impact of a no-deal Brexit on Ireland (Republic of) is absolutely massive. So how about no, we keep working on it until the last moment to avoid a fucking disaster.

I think those in the EU who think the UK being a mess is good also live in a fantasy land. It's not going to be good for anyone. It's just a mess.

Exactly this.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,546
yeah and a bunch of pedophile inbred British/Germans are not it

the answer to fixing some of the flaws in a democracy is not less democracy

I'm pretty rapidly losing faith in democracy as a concept after Brexit and the Trump administration. Democracy isn't something so special that it must be protected at all costs if the people using it are suicide-pilling their own nations out of open, racist spite.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,877
This thread makes me worry that Boris is going to successfully shift the blame for No Deal onto the EU, given he seems to have shifted the blame for this onto the Queen for a lot of people lol
 

Jindrax

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,454
So if I understand the issues correctly, the only way out of this is a vote of no confidence? Correct?
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
Cheers! Missed a comma.
oh-you-point.gif
 
Last edited:

Koukalaka

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,512
Scotland
Both. He needed support to maintain a majority, so he promised a referendum on leaving the EU. Then, when the referendum happened, he fucked the whole thing up by not taking appropriate measures to prevent the public being lied to.

Then he has the audacity to quit when the vote goes the wrong way. This was all because of his power play and he gets to just skip town when things don't go the way he wants?

The whole thing was a mess from the start. Cummings made a key decision early on to not clearly define what sort of Brexit the Vote Leave campaign would advocate for.

This was a excellent decision from a campaigning perspective, as Brexit could be moulded to sort the audience being talked to, but it's caused a shed-ton of problems since then.
 

Protome

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,877
If the queen had some balls, she'd reject this motion, then willfully receive all the backslash, then abdicate and end the monarchy when it's too late to go with this foolishness.

Now THAT'D be one for the history books.
While I'd love that, I'm sure it's pretty obvious why a rich person who is rich because of who her parents were and whose income comes entirely from payments from the government solely for being born to her parents wouldn't want to give that up lol

Imagine the Queen abdicating, ending the monarchy and having to live off a state pension because everything she owns belongs to the state.
 

MilesQ

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,490
This thread makes me worry that Boris is going to successfully shift the blame for No Deal onto the EU, given he seems to have shifted the blame for this onto the Queen for a lot of people lol

Some Remainers have already started to parrot the trash about the EU being stubborn and not willing to give us what we want.

Given enough time, everyone will be signing the same tune. Easier to blame someone else than to look inwards and fix the problems that caused this to happen.
 

FutureLarking

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
787
Well, at least give the people the freedom to elect stupid people to office.

I mean, we do. The royals have no real power, and circumstances of birth are prevelant in so many places outside outside of the insignificantly tiny realm of royalty anyway. Life is unfair, every has to deal with it. I for one am greatly disgusted that I was not born to a family of multi millionaire property developers. 🤔

Well, will be interesting to see what happens. Unlike May, at least Johnson appears to be trying to do something. Is something better than nothing? We'll see.
 

Deleted member 8579

Oct 26, 2017
33,843
Crazy when you look back on Brexit, the worst the Brexiters like Farage, Boris, Gove etc. were peddling was a Norway, soft Brexit deal but it's somehow morphed into no deal what it always was. Con job of the century.
 
Oct 26, 2017
6,261
I think those in the EU who think the UK being a mess is good also live in a fantasy land. It's not going to be good for anyone. It's just a mess.

What's infuriating is that their reason is that they're sick of it being in the news. As if we fucking aren't TIRED of this bullshit too. But willfully wishing a speedy no deal is a dick move considering the ramifications.
 

nature boy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,877
Alright, having read the source article and a few other sources... I'm still fairly wildly confused on the scope of this. Can someone explain this in simpler terms to my dumb little American brain?

In basic terms:

- the UK is set to leave the EU on October 31st;
- the UK and the EU have a deal to leave gracefully (Withdrawal Agreement) ;
- but that deal has been rejected 3 times by UK parliament;
- Johnson's goverment was appointed in July after Theresa May resigned (because she couldn't get that deal passed) and Johnson won the leadership contest of the Conservative party;
- When there's a new government, the Queen makes a speech outlining the policies to enact;
- This normally requires a new session of parliament, so the previous one ends;
- This is what's happening here;
- But it doesn't usually take 5 weeks to do this, this length hasn't happened in decades;
- Meanwhile, almost all of the other political parties and some Conservative MPs are trying to find a solution to block a "no-deal"/chaos Brexit and this suspension of Parliament makes things harder (not impossible) to get through. It's not clear if they can block by passing a law or a vote of no confidence of the PM (and if that vote of no confidence will pass).
- Obviously this length is deliberate in order to put pressure on MPs(and the EU) to accept what Johnson wants, which is to get rid of the backstop and replace with ?????? (seriously he hasn't set forward a clear replacement)
- Backstop is there to avoid violence in Northern Ireland between unionists (who want to remain in the UK) and republicans (who want to unite Northern Ireland with Ireland). Anything that fucks up Northern Ireland means no trade deal with the US (which is Brexiters el dorado)
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,511
I think the EU should be firm with the UK because it sets a bad precedent and because it's kinda gross how everybody was ready to kick Greece to the curb when they needed help but would be so patient with the UK that wants to leave.

But the UK leaving isn't good either way. It's bad and it's going to be bad for the EU. But them staying it's going to fuel a lot of nationalistic parties so I don't think it's good either.
 

klonere

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,439
I mean, we do. The royals have no real power, and circumstances of birth are prevelant in so many places outside outside of the insignificantly tiny realm of royalty anyway. Life is unfair, every has to deal with it. I for one am greatly disgusted that I was not born to a family of multi millionaire property developers. 🤔

Well, will be interesting to see what happens. Unlike May, at least Johnson appears to be trying to do something. Is something better than nothing? We'll see.

he is far more competent at enriching his friends, killing the power and displaying 18th century levels of racist disdain for the Irish, I will give him that!
 

Irrotational

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,351
Correct. She has no power. Some people are trying to claim that she does but she doesn't. I just can't with this debate anymore.
What are you doing....choosing not to use power for *checks watch* 310 years doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I agree the distinction is close to irrelevant but she legally has the power to do it.

I'll say it again - choosing to refuse the PM is the more democratic option than agreeing to it. She'd be doing us all a favour.
 

RulkezX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,342
Nah, there's plenty of money for the likes of SO15. Government always happy to spend on heavily armed storm troopers for "counter-terrorism" and such (aka show of state power). Regular bobbies, not so much.

Edit: it would be interesting to see what they'd do in NI. The RUC was disbanded as part of GFA

Thanks to Tory cuts there aren't enough police of soldiers for martial law. Some that are available will probably be sent to NI if there is No Deal as well.

Police Scotland have already had to do emergency recruitment and have banned holidays to cover the 300+ Public Order trained Cops who are going to be going to NI.
 

klonere

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,439
Police Scotland have already had to do emergency recruitment and have banned holidays to cover the 300+ Public Order trained Cops who are going to be going to NI.

huh, what happened last time a bunch of forcibly recruited scots were transplanted to Ulster?

it's all very funny isn't it
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
I can't believe the 'privy council' is still a thing. Just watched Starz Tudors and Henry VIII was consulting with them to chop off Anne's head!
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,511
I mean, we do. The royals have no real power, and circumstances of birth are prevelant in so many places outside outside of the insignificantly tiny realm of royalty anyway. Life is unfair, every has to deal with it. I for one am greatly disgusted that I was not born to a family of multi millionaire property developers. 🤔

Well, will be interesting to see what happens. Unlike May, at least Johnson appears to be trying to do something. Is something better than nothing? We'll see.

But multi-millionaires aren't state sponsored privilege.

And you can become rich even if you aren't. You will never be able to become king. It's different. Even if realistically both goals aren't achievable it isn't by law which is what makes the concept of monarchy gross.
 

Deleted member 8579

Oct 26, 2017
33,843
Police Scotland have already had to do emergency recruitment and have banned holidays to cover the 300+ Public Order trained Cops who are going to be going to NI.

How are going to recruit and train so many cops in short time and don't you need a degree to be a cop these days which makes it even harder.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,511
I'll say it again: Referedums are a dumb idea.

Representative votes are the best we can do. You can't trust people with direct voting like a Referendum. It's a bad idea. Always.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,800
Seen shitloads of ads for joining the army recently, here in Glasgow. They're definitely trying to bolster numbers for whatever reason.
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
But multi-millionaires aren't state sponsored privilege.

And you can become rich even if you aren't. You will never be able to become king. It's different. Even if realistically both goals aren't achievable it isn't by law which is what makes the concept of monarchy gross.

Being a "subject" of anyone is what makes it gross to me.
 

Deleted member 2533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
I think those in the EU who think the UK being a mess is good also live in a fantasy land. It's not going to be good for anyone. It's just a mess.

The EU losing one of its major economies is horrible, but if the UK left and it "went well," then other EU countries leaving would only become more popular, which would be more damaging to the EU than a no deal. This is a divorce, both parties lose, but when one side asks for full custody, you don't come back with 50/50, you counter with full custody and maybe it lands at 50/50.
 

shox

Member
Oct 25, 2017
317
This thread makes me worry that Boris is going to successfully shift the blame for No Deal onto the EU, given he seems to have shifted the blame for this onto the Queen for a lot of people lol

This has very clearly been his motive since taking power - considering the average Leave voter, it will work without question. If he says it was the EU's fault we got no deal, they will beleive it and any other reason to justify their nonsensical daily mail fueled hatred of the union.
 

Starphanluke

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 15, 2017
7,467
In basic terms:

- the UK is set to leave the EU on October 31st;
- the UK and the EU have a deal to leave gracefully (Withdrawal Agreement) ;
- but that deal has been rejected 3 times by UK parliament;
- Johnson's goverment was appointed in July after Theresa May resigned (because she couldn't get that deal passed) and Johnson won the leadership contest of the Conservative party;
- When there's a new government, the Queen makes a speech outlining the policies to enact;
- This normally requires a new session of parliament, so the previous one ends;
- This is what's happening here;
- But it doesn't usually take 5 weeks to do this, this length hasn't happened in decades;
- Meanwhile, almost all of the other political parties and some Conservative MPs are trying to find a solution to block a "no-deal"/chaos Brexit and this suspension of Parliament makes things harder (not impossible) to get through. It's not clear if they can block by passing a law or a vote of no confidence of the PM (and if that vote of no confidence will pass).
- Obviously this length is deliberate in order to put pressure on MPs(and the EU) to accept what Johnson wants, which is to get rid of the backstop and replace with ?????? (seriously he hasn't set forward a clear replacement)
- Backstop is there to avoid violence in Northern Ireland between unionists (who want to remain in the UK) and republicans (who want to unite Northern Ireland with Ireland). Anything that fucks up Northern Ireland means no trade deal with the US (which is Brexiters el dorado)

Thank you! I have followed Brexit pretty closely but wasn't sure what precedent there was for this or whose power-play it was.
 

Boy Wander

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
2,126
UK
Yeah, what can I do about it. It's your mess, you fucked up, you clean up.
Europe tried to help you avoid the shit for the past 3 years, you refused it all.

Honestly your schtick is no better than someone from the UK telling you that there would be no Europe without the UK and US because you all surrendered to the Nazis 80 years ago. Grow up.
 
Oct 28, 2017
3,091
Parliament wouldn't agree on anything Boris could offer, and thus derailing his plans for an exit of the EU. Makes sense why he'd want to get around them.

What's the alternative? An election and another referendum on Brexit? And what if Leave wins again? What if Remain wins, how is that democratic?

Every option is shit.
 

kiguel182

Member
Oct 31, 2017
9,511
The EU losing one of its major economies is horrible, but if the UK left and it "went well," then other EU countries leaving would only become more popular, which would be more damaging to the EU than a no deal. This is a divorce, both parties lose, but when one side asks for full custody, you don't come back with 50/50, you counter with full custody and maybe it lands at 50/50.

If somehow the UK is thriving in 10 years or so it's the end of the EU.

Of course this is a very cold and non-humanist way to look at things but for the EU the UK crashing and burning is the best case scenario.

Altought the UK doing well wouldn't mean the same would apply to France or Italy since the UK always had a special stature inside the EU and it's probably the country that would do best outside of it.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,800
At least BoJo hasn't killed anyone in the opposition, yet...

An MP was shot and stabbed to death in the UK, and the guy who pulled the trigger was giving it typical Brexiteer propaganda during it. Boris Johnson is the guy who crafted the image of the big bad EU through his journalism career, and hes been stoking the fires of anti-EU and anti-immigration beliefs his whole life otherwise. He's definitely complicit in her murder.
 

Geoff

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,115
What are you doing....choosing not to use power for *checks watch* 310 years doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I agree the distinction is close to irrelevant but she legally has the power to do it.

I'll say it again - choosing to refuse the PM is the more democratic option than agreeing to it. She'd be doing us all a favour.

Put it this way. If she did use this power it would create a bigger crisis than the one we are trying to avert. You cannot have a constitutional monarchy where the monarch can intervene. And you wouldn't want to have one because you are then operating at the whim of the monarch. We fought a civil way to curb the power of the monarch and asking her to intervene in the democratic process, just because you don't like the result of that process, would take us back to the days of Charles I. And the upshot of that would be chaos, absolute chaos. Who is on control of the country? Are we even a democracy anymore? You can believe that the Queen has the power to intervene as much you like but she will never do it. Not for any reason. Because her right to do so was surrendered hundreds of years ago. This whole debate is a complete distraction from the actual matter at hand.
 

Deleted member 8579

Oct 26, 2017
33,843
Seen shitloads of ads for joining the army recently, here in Glasgow. They're definitely trying to bolster numbers for whatever reason.

That's just the usual time of the year before people go college, apprenticeships etc.

It is true that Army recruitment is struggling.