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Oxyrain

Member
Oct 25, 2017
492
Valve doesn't enforce its own ToS why would they act on behalf of Sony without their permission to delist a game based on Sony's own Terms of Service?

I think you don't realize how hands off Valve is with third party games on Steam. They will NEVER without permission from Sony do anything to Sony's games unless Sony is doing fraud blantantly.
I assume if Valve has to expend effort handling refunds, it's best not to sell (or treat them the same way in the store) products in regions where it could cause issues.

I think most manufacturers don't care if an end user buys something they can't use, especially if the distributor or store has to deal with the customer. So it can often fall to the distributor to make sure things are in check.
 

skullmuffins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,458
As someone who lives in a PSN country, what is pissing me off is pundits claiming that people should just "make an out of region account" when it is in breach of official TOS, could lead to people losing their entire libraries at the flip of a switch, and is ultimately coming from a position of criticism of Sony who should absolutely be doing better than telling people to breach their own TOS.

I'm not going to feel bad for warning people that they could lose a lifetime's worth of licenses because Sony decide to expand officially into their region and, using location data and being bound by new taxation laws for that region, need to terminate accounts in breach of TOS because everyone else kept telling them "oh yeah you're safe it'll never happen, drink up."
this is basically FUD and is about as likely to happen as sony shutting down PSN entirely. can you point to one instance of them doing this ever when expanding to a new territory?
 
Feb 16, 2022
15,265
As someone who lives in a PSN country, what is pissing me off is pundits claiming that people should just "make an out of region account" when it is in breach of official TOS, could lead to people losing their entire libraries at the flip of a switch, and is ultimately coming from a position of criticism of Sony who should absolutely be doing better than telling people to breach their own TOS.

I'm not going to feel bad for warning people that they could lose a lifetime's worth of licenses because Sony decide to expand officially into their region and, using location data and being bound by new taxation laws for that region, need to terminate accounts in breach of TOS because everyone else kept telling them "oh yeah you're safe it'll never happen, drink up."
That won't happen because I've already been on that end of the stick--there was no regional PSN at the beginning here where I live so I have to make one with another country's address, and when there finally was one, I made a new one with the right address too. And now I've maintained both for well over a decade. Stop making nonexistent boogeymans.
 

Bossking

Member
Nov 20, 2017
1,646
I bought Helldivers 2 on day 1 and I was required to log in to my PSN account I believe.

And someone a few posts above you didn't need to just a few days after. People haven't had to for months now. The overwhelming majority of players who have purchased Helldivers 2 on Steam have not been required to make a PSN account.
 

Ingueferroque

Banned
Dec 26, 2023
1,786
New York, NY
Are Microsoft accounts region restricted?

I mentioned that being an issue in several posts. It is the only issue I see here.

(But to answer your question, yes - there are some regions where you can NOT make a Microsoft account)

And someone a few posts above you didn't need to just a few days after. People haven't had to for months now. The overwhelming majority of players who have purchased Helldivers 2 on Steam have not been required to make a PSN account.

Just clarifying - the game's intention was to always require PSN login. It was always stated as such on the store page, it was required of players on the first few days after launch, it is in the trailer, it was communicated in their Steam News posts, .... there is no rug pull here.
 
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OP
Red Kong XIX

Red Kong XIX

Member
Oct 11, 2020
9,036
So you get an incomplete game in unsupported countries
Not really, if you are willing to create an account from a supported region and link it with that. Yes, it is breaking their TOS technically, but they never went after these accounts, I have one myself. It's still better than delisting it over this, especially a game like Ghost of Tsushima were the multiplayer mode is secondary.
 

AshenOne

Member
Feb 21, 2018
6,330
Pakistan
I assume if Valve has to expend effort handling refunds, it's best not to sell (or treat them the same way in the store) products in regions where it could cause issues.

I think most manufacturers don't care if an end user buys something they can't use, especially if the distributor or store has to deal with the customer. So it can often fall to the distributor to make sure things are in check.
What iam saying is that whatever happened, it probably happened with permission of Sony. Especially if the game is blocked from activation/purchose in those countries not supported in PSN's ToS.

Valve has allowed refunds beyond 2h limits for games in the past, yet they haven't blocked al those games from purchase on Steam.

www.dexerto.com

Steam accepting The Last of Us refunds no matter the playtime - Dexerto

Steam is reportedly accepting refunds of The Last of Us' PC port no matter players' playtime following negative reviews

So what iam thinking is that if a game reviews overwhelmingly negative in the current time, they will sometimes allow refunds beyond the 2h window for certain games.
 

bobeth

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,314
Wow. A decision has been made somewhere by someone disconnected from their customers it seems like. Typical corporate behaviour..
 

Jera

Member
Sep 19, 2022
244
Yes... the console industry. Sony does not and will not ever have the same market share on PC that they have in their own closed garden. Valve's "stranglehold" makes that a 100% certainty, and many folks reasonably doubt that even Microsoft can do that in the PC space. Sony don't have the leverage now with this one game, and PC gamers will not give it to them even with the 2 or 3 multiplayer PlayStation games that might end up being successful long-term.

Even if they feel bold enough to try, they won't succeed and we can then laugh at them for trying. It's voting with your wallet and it absolutely works.
They don't need to have a stranglehold in the PC industry to have the leverage that they have. I would argue that actually gives them MORE leverage, seeing as they really don't have to put it on the platform at all. It's just a difference of cash flow in a particular direction. Hell, this could give them cold feet on the PC market as a whole.

I could see them completely pull out of the PC space. Corporations, simply do not care, and will do what is the best for the company. They actually already have tons of leverage in the PC industry just due to how much people want to get their hands on their exclusives.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,433
And someone a few posts above you didn't need to just a few days after. People haven't had to for months now. The overwhelming majority of players who have purchased Helldivers 2 on Steam have not been required to make a PSN account.
This is a misunderstanding of what actually happened from what I remember. It was always required but it was never enforced, even on day one. People have stated how they just clicked on Skip and it never prompted them again.
 

Sr Kitsune

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,043
Baja California, Mexico
Sony gets their golden goose
Shoots themselves in the foot

Lmao
Who-Killed-Hannibal.jpg
 

Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,481
UK
this is basically FUD and is about as likely to happen as sony shutting down PSN entirely. can you point to one instance of them doing this ever when expanding to a new territory?

That won't happen because I've already been on that end of the stick--there was no regional PSN at the beginning here where I live so I have to make one with another country's address, and when there finally was one, I made a new one with the right address too. And now I've maintained both for well over a decade. Stop making nonexistent boogeymans.
If it doesn't matter where your account is located, why are those regions delisted on Steam?
 

Kinthey

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
22,840
All of these companies that demand that you use their account system should maybe start thinking about what this actually offers the player. Like in this case we know the game works perfectly fine without it and there's no real incentive for anyone to make a psn account unless you force them. How about making that actually appealing instead of making it mandatory
 

Bossking

Member
Nov 20, 2017
1,646
"just lie and make an account in a different region bro, they'll never catch you"

How about the $103b corporation officially expand into those territories so people don't have to break Sony's own TOS to play the games Sony's selling them
 

Watchtower

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,964
That's easy to say in a vacuum, but this was always bound to become a problem at some point, it was just a powder keg waiting to go off.

If Sony decided to expand into those new regions and therefore had to legally begin tracking taxation of sales from those regions, what do they do about all of the false accounts whom they have been doing business with whom probably haven't paid sales tax correctly that Sony is then liable for? Do they continue to ignore them or do they say "actually these accounts are in breach of our TOS and so in remediation are being terminated"?

That's just one example I can think of. Maybe it's fantasy or maybe it would be that important, but the fact is that this was always a problem, those accounts are in breach of ToS and Sony would have needed to address this at some stage

Selling games to unsupported regions amidst a gigantic PR backlash could be considered blatant fraud, and so you have answered your own argument.

It's honestly kinda funny wording it out like that....Sony essentially allowing and even encouraging fraud under their nose. Wouldn't even call it wrong necessarily. There really was something of an unspoken agreement where Sony would allow off-region accounts to pass by so that they didn't have to do the infrastructure work and in return gamers got far more freedom with the system than they otherwise would have. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say we willed this into existence - this whole mess finally got enough people that are like "Breaking TOS agreements is bad!" to shine enough of a spotlight on this blatant blind spot for someone to finally act on it.

Way to ruin a good hustle guys. 😂 j/k

I keep going back to Valve/Steam because it just makes more sense for them to be on top of it if only for the sake of legal CYA. It just doesn't make sense for Sony to now of all times to essentially sabotage themselves out of something they were actively benefiting from (like they had no problems selling it back at launch when PSN was gonna be mandatory but now that they turned it off and are gonna turn it back on the gates come down?). Though in fairness Sony can be hilariously out-of-touch at times and this wouldn't be the first time that's fucked them over bad.
 

Raigor

Member
May 14, 2020
15,360
They don't need to have a stranglehold in the PC industry to have the leverage that they have. I would argue that actually gives them MORE leverage, seeing as they really don't have to put it on the platform at all. It's just a difference of cash flow in a particular direction. Hell, this could give them cold feet on the PC market as a whole.

I could see them completely pull out of the PC space. Corporations, simply do not care, and will do what is the best for the company. They actually already have tons of leverage in the PC industry just due to how much people want to get their hands on their exclusives.

Lol Song pulling out from PC is going to exclusively hurt their bottom line only they really have no leverage, if anything they should take the "L" and try to find a solution for all other countries with no PSN support and their requirements for a PSN account.
 

skullmuffins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,458
If it doesn't matter where your account is located, why are those regions delisted on Steam?
because gamers threw the biggest of shitfits, review bombed the game and were requesting refunds?

like you can't look at the delisting separate from the outrage that preceded it. like the requirement was meant to be in place from the beginning and they had no problem selling the game in those regions before everyone lost their minds.
"just lie and make an account in a different region bro, they'll never catch you"

How about the $103b corporation officially expand into those territories so people don't have to break Sony's own TOS to play the games Sony's selling them
it's not that they won't catch you, it's that sony does not care. people have been doing it for decades. sony will be happy to sell you games, they just don't want the business hassle of formally setting up support for your region.
 
Feb 16, 2022
15,265
"just lie and make an account in a different region bro, they'll never catch you"

How about the $103b corporation officially expand into those territories so people don't have to break Sony's own TOS to play the games Sony's selling them
That would be nice, but again those of us who'd been in that situation have had to make do just fine. The problem is the people propping that "no PSN in these countries" as an excuse weren't the ones from said countries, they were just co-opting that reasoning. And now screwed over the people from said countries, who weren't even complaining in the first place.
 

Mocha Joe

Member
Jun 2, 2021
10,120
Regardless of how anyone feels about this, I genuinely cannot believe some PR genius at Playstation thought this was a good idea to drop this news on a Friday and just let this shit storm continue to grow and get worse over the weekend.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,456
Not really, if you are willing to create an account from a supported region and link it with that. Yes, it is breaking their TOS technically, but they never went after these accounts, I have one myself. It's still better than delisting it over this, especially a game like Ghost of Tsushima were the multiplayer mode is secondary.

Do you not understand, that the majority of customers WON'T know that they can just do that?
That some people don't want to do that because they fear they will lose EVERYTHING if Sony ever changes that "stance". Like they changed the need to link to a PSN account TWICE for this product alone?
 

L11ghtman

Member
Jan 19, 2022
1,472
Sony invested Billions into their GaaS push, this is their first success
Successful GaaS games is like winning the lottery, most of them fail.
This could be Sony's only GaaS success.

They fucked up hard.
Im sure this will blow over with some sort of solution and people will continue to be weird about anything that encroaches on Steam's ownership of PC.
 

vestan

#REFANTAZIO SWEEP
Member
Dec 28, 2017
25,045
Almost 8 years of development and immense goodwill built through a meticulous, player-first live service strategy only to be ruined by your stupid fucking publisher 🔥 🔥
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,433
Do you not understand, that the majority of customers WON'T know that they can just do that?
That some people don't want to do that because they fear they will lose EVERYTHING if Sony ever changes that "stance". Like they changed the need to link to a PSN account TWICE for this product alone?
Which is why until they figure this stuff out Sony shouldn't be selling their games that require PSN account linking in areas that do not have PSN support. That seems to be what they did here.
 

Bossking

Member
Nov 20, 2017
1,646
That would be nice, but again those of us who'd been in that situation have had to make do just fine. The problem is the people propping that "no PSN in these countries" as an excuse weren't the ones from said countries, they were just co-opting that reasoning. And now screwed over the people from said countries, who weren't even complaining in the first place.

Feels a bit short-sighted to blame Gamers(tm) for Sony's incompetence. In the end, they're not the ones who denied you access. Sony made an unforced error and sold a game in several countries that their own now-mandated service doesn't support, and Valve doesn't want to be on the hook for that shit. Blame angry American gamers all you want (which they still have a right to be, they shouldn't need to make an account for a thing that hasn't needed one for four months now), but Sony's the one at fault.
 

dom

▲ Legend ▲
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
10,580
Regardless of how anyone feels about this, I genuinely cannot believe some PR genius at Playstation thought this was a good idea to drop this news on a Friday and just let this shit storm continue to grow and get worse over the weekend.
It's probably to not allow anyone a refund to those outside those regions. Now there's a clear divide in who could have issues with requiring a PSN account. Instead of most people who are whining about needing one in a non affected region when it was clearly labeled one would be required.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,793
All of these companies that demand that you use their account system should be maybe start thinking about what this actually offers the player. Like in this case we know the game works perfectly fine without it and there's no real incentive for anyone to make a psn account unless you force them. How about making that actually appealing instead of making it mandatory
Should all come with a mandatory cross progression (for stuff you buy with the monopoly money they all sell anyway, I can understand even if they wanted to do it with real money store purchases the platform holders will probably just tell them to fuck off).

It's how Destiny/Bungie accounts work and I'm actually glad it's a thing, made the game just significantly better, I can buy a seaon on PS and play it on Xbox or Steam and vice versa, just a really convenient thing built-in to their account system and it's something I actually use. I don't care if those accounts make it easier or whatever, give me a reason, hell just some free shit I probably won't even use is probably enough and I'll sign up and never think about it again.
 

neoak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,629
I mentioned that being an issue in several posts. It is the only issue I see here.

(But to answer your question, yes - there are some regions where you can NOT make a Microsoft account)
All Microsoft Online Services are unavailable in Cuba, Iran, Democratic People's Republic of Korea, Sudan, and Syria.

Microsoft 365 International Availability

Learn about the international availability of individual Microsoft products and services.

You know why, right?
 

Hamchan

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,122
They don't need to have a stranglehold in the PC industry to have the leverage that they have. I would argue that actually gives them MORE leverage, seeing as they really don't have to put it on the platform at all. It's just a difference of cash flow in a particular direction. Hell, this could give them cold feet on the PC market as a whole.

I could see them completely pull out of the PC space. Corporations, simply do not care, and will do what is the best for the company. They actually already have tons of leverage in the PC industry just due to how much people want to get their hands on their exclusives.

Nah this is insane talk. PC essentially doubled the sales of Helldivers 2, no way will Sony pull out of PC now.
 
Feb 16, 2022
15,265
Do you not understand, that the majority of customers WON'T know that they can just do that?
That some people don't want to do that because they fear they will lose EVERYTHING if Sony ever changes that "stance". Like they changed the need to link to a PSN account TWICE for this product alone?
Newsflash: Many people from affected countries do know this and have done exactly that. Hell, where I live, official third party Sony retailers even had guides on how to make PSN accounts from a different country. Stop making it as if people haven't been doing this for nearly two decades now.
 

Kyougar

Cute Animal Whisperer
Member
Nov 3, 2017
9,456
Newsflash: Many people from affected countries do know this and have done exactly that. Hell, where I live, official third party Sony retailers even had guides on how to make PSN accounts from a different country. Stop making it as if people haven't been doing this for nearly two decades now.

Those are Playstation Customers.
Why would PC gamers know about this?
 

neoak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,629
Newsflash: Many people from affected countries do know this and have done exactly that. Hell, where I live, official third party Sony retailers even had guides on how to make PSN accounts from a different country. Stop making it as if people haven't been doing this for nearly two decades now.
Problem as stated in previous pages seems to be Valve is liable for selling a product that is not officially supported in those countries. Hence the delisting.

And PC players did not need a PSN account to play. Suddenly they do.
 
Feb 16, 2022
15,265
Feels a bit short-sighted to blame Gamers(tm) for Sony's incompetence. In the end, they're not the ones who denied you access. Sony made an unforced error and sold a game in several countries that their own now-mandated service doesn't support, and Valve doesn't want to be on the hook for that shit. Blame angry American gamers all you want (which they still have a right to be, they shouldn't need to make an account for a thing that hasn't needed one for four months now), but Sony's the one at fault.
Yes, it's an infrastructure issue from publishers. But let's be real here. These are the same capital G Gamers who manipulated Steam's regional prices to get games for cheap and ended up causing prices to go way up because devs were losing money from people doing that, AGAIN screwing over people who actually are from those countries.
 
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