nillapuddin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,258
oh is this a stealth thread where we all delusionally convince ourselves that Silksong is still coming out this year?


hell fucking yeah Q4 BAYBEEE LETTS GOOOOOO

GAMESCOM SHADOW DROP
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,932
Brazil
Literally every genre in every medium has a few critically acclaimed darlings that get a lot more attention than others. I don't see how Metroidvanias are unique in that regard.

HK's status is no more bizarre than SOTN or SM's. Those games are highly revered because they are incredibly high quality, high impact games.

And yes I do want you to call out some games. Your last several posts you have been alluding to incredible under the radar Metroidvanias that HK fans have never heard of. Tell us what these mysterious games are, if they're as high quality as HK and SOTN then I'm sure everyone in this thread would like to play them.

In the same way as HK, i really like SOTN and SM, but of course they have a bigger historical reason to be so loved. I'm not arguing against any of them being high quality games, but at the same time i don't think they're 3 steps above everything else. Personally i think Metroid Fusion is better than SM and Order of Ecclesia is better than SOTN, though obviously they aren't as important in terms of impact.

Maybe because it's mostly an "indie" genre aside Nintendo with Metroid nowadays, but different from other genres, i feel like popular Metroidvanias doesn't really increase the popularity of the genre itself.

I feel like you're being facetious about the list part, but whatever, some stuff to consider:

Valdis Story: It has probably the best combat in a side scrolling game, with lots of diablo like build possibilities and 4 different characters. It's probably more on the hard side but it's the golden standard for combat in Metroidvanias for me.

La-Mulana 1/2: Nothing beats them in terms of tight non linear level design. They are packed with content, but never feel bloated.

Unepic: Another enormous metroidvania, packed with unique, diverse level design and a pseudo D&D character progression. It ends with a rather weird tower defense setpiece but it's great how the game tries to feel really different every area.

Castle in the Darkness: Just an honest and tight game with a similar jump and slash routine to HK and really fun map that is similar to SOTN, in the way it starts linear but branches well in different paths later.

Untitled Story: More focused in precision platforming but with super fun non linear level design. It's free and imo every fan of the genre with any kind of computer should try it atleast once.

Bunny Must Die: A lot of people on Era would probably hate the super weeby aesthetics, but i love how unique the almost bullet hell enemy design is.

Environmental Station Alpha: Feels like a minimalistic Metroid at first, but really nails the feeling of mystery on its extremely cryptic post game. Like if you're doing some kind of arg inside the game, it's hard to explain.

Dunno how many would like these more than HK or even like them for starters, but they're worth a play and deliver experiences you won't see in HK, for sure.

I think in the end i also don't understand how Chrono Trigger is so much better than other stuff or how Ocarina of Time is so much better than other stuff in the same way with HK.

If you can "cite a lot of stuff that you would consider as good as HK/SOTN/SM" in a conversation about the popularity of those particular games in relation to other Metroidvanias, it's probably because the really popular ones did something that caused a whole bunch of people to notice them and that "lot of stuff" you can cite, for whatever reason, didn't hit the same.

I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but you're not gonna get an objective metric on whether or not Hollow Knight deserves it popularity relative to its quality, because "it's popular because it sold a lot" is a verifiable statement and "the game deserves to have sold a lot" isn't, since that's something up to subjective interpretation of its audience, and your argument to the effect of "Hollow Knight sold so much because its fans don't play more Metroidvanias" is silly because you're trying to decide what makes someone feel something about a video game.


Ori and the Blind Forest more like Boring and the Whine Forest lmao gottem

I think people itt are taking it backwards. I'm very happy that HK sold a lot and i think it's clearly deserved. But holy fuck there's so many great stuff in the genre that gets only the crumbs. HK not being a ladder for the genre is super frustrating.

In hindsight, it was probably not the best idea to post it in this specific thread and i can see how pretentious i sound when i say that. But i still want to stand to my point, just maybe don't know how to express it better.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
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Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I think people itt are taking it backwards. I'm very happy that HK sold a lot and i think it's clearly deserved. But holy fuck there's so many great stuff in the genre that gets only the crumbs. HK not being a ladder for the genre is super frustrating.

In hindsight, it was probably not the best idea to post it in this specific thread and i can see how pretentious i sound when i say that. But i still want to stand to my point, just maybe don't know how to express it better.
Well yeah it's fine to think, specifically, that there are better Metroidvanias than Hollow Knight. It is my favourite one, but that's because it does everything I want in this genre and then does it right all at once, but then there's any number of reasons why Hollow Knight is seen as a peak by its playerbase. Maybe it's the current best expression of Metroidvania as it is for me, maybe the specific minutiae of other Metroidvanias isn't landing for them and the ones that don't shake the mold too much are found lacking. It's not really worth getting into why people like things compared to other things, because I'm not a marketing department.

The reality of popularity is that it's exponential, and when something gets big it gets bigger because as it grows more people who'd otherwise never heard of it until suddenly they're doors are getting banged by the town crier's new favourite game. There is a kernel of truth where Hollow Knight's popularity came from people latching onto it after hearing about it, and those people told other people who latched onto it, repeat until we have an indie darling, but it's not something that can be objectively quantified relative to other indie games that didn't make it big, that's just how things get bigger through word of mouth. There's always a success story like this in theses scenes where everyone just goes all-in, that's how I got into Undertale all those years ago for example, other people talked about it so I got into it and I started talking about it and other people heard it from me and this continues until Sans gets a costume in Smash Bros.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
11,032
Great game. Just beat it last weekend lol, played literally the entire saturday until I finished the main quest. Immaculate movement, simple yet rewarding gameplay. A real gem.

Plus whoever designed the press button to view map button is a genius because it added so much to the feeling of being an explorer.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Great game. Just beat it last weekend lol, played literally the entire saturday until I finished the main quest. Immaculate movement, simple yet rewarding gameplay. A real gem.

Plus whoever designed the press button to view map button is a genius because it added so much to the feeling of being an explorer.
I actually will never forgive anyone who said they hated the map if Silksong takes it out because "QoL" or whatever.
 

Servbot24

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
43,539
In the same way as HK, i really like SOTN and SM, but of course they have a bigger historical reason to be so loved. I'm not arguing against any of them being high quality games, but at the same time i don't think they're 3 steps above everything else. Personally i think Metroid Fusion is better than SM and Order of Ecclesia is better than SOTN, though obviously they aren't as important in terms of impact.

Maybe because it's mostly an "indie" genre aside Nintendo with Metroid nowadays, but different from other genres, i feel like popular Metroidvanias doesn't really increase the popularity of the genre itself.

I feel like you're being facetious about the list part, but whatever, some stuff to consider:

Valdis Story: It has probably the best combat in a side scrolling game, with lots of diablo like build possibilities and 4 different characters. It's probably more on the hard side but it's the golden standard for combat in Metroidvanias for me.

La-Mulana 1/2: Nothing beats them in terms of tight non linear level design. They are packed with content, but never feel bloated.

Unepic: Another enormous metroidvania, packed with unique, diverse level design and a pseudo D&D character progression. It ends with a rather weird tower defense setpiece but it's great how the game tries to feel really different every area.

Castle in the Darkness: Just an honest and tight game with a similar jump and slash routine to HK and really fun map that is similar to SOTN, in the way it starts linear but branches well in different paths later.

Untitled Story: More focused in precision platforming but with super fun non linear level design. It's free and imo every fan of the genre with any kind of computer should try it atleast once.

Bunny Must Die: A lot of people on Era would probably hate the super weeby aesthetics, but i love how unique the almost bullet hell enemy design is.

Environmental Station Alpha: Feels like a minimalistic Metroid at first, but really nails the feeling of mystery on its extremely cryptic post game. Like if you're doing some kind of arg inside the game, it's hard to explain.

Dunno how many would like these more than HK or even like them for starters, but they're worth a play and deliver experiences you won't see in HK, for sure.

I think in the end i also don't understand how Chrono Trigger is so much better than other stuff or how Ocarina of Time is so much better than other stuff in the same way with HK.
I wasn't being facetious at all - appreciate the recommendations! When you say that claims of HK's greatness are hollow if they haven't also tried certain other games, then I definitely want to know specifically what those other games are that are being referenced. I've only played 2 of those, and another 2 of them I never heard of (Untilted Story and Bunny Must Die... looking at videos of those two I think it's fairly outrageous to say that I would need to play these before being able to say that HK is an all-time great, but w/e) so it gives me things to check out.

I personally agree that Fusion is better than SM, but I get why people lean towards SM. Although it's not my preference the quality is still apparent.
 

ADS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
875
Valdis Story: It has probably the best combat in a side scrolling game, with lots of diablo like build possibilities and 4 different characters. It's probably more on the hard side but it's the golden standard for combat in Metroidvanias for me.

La-Mulana 1/2: Nothing beats them in terms of tight non linear level design. They are packed with content, but never feel bloated.

Unepic: Another enormous metroidvania, packed with unique, diverse level design and a pseudo D&D character progression. It ends with a rather weird tower defense setpiece but it's great how the game tries to feel really different every area.

Castle in the Darkness: Just an honest and tight game with a similar jump and slash routine to HK and really fun map that is similar to SOTN, in the way it starts linear but branches well in different paths later.

Untitled Story: More focused in precision platforming but with super fun non linear level design. It's free and imo every fan of the genre with any kind of computer should try it atleast once.

Bunny Must Die: A lot of people on Era would probably hate the super weeby aesthetics, but i love how unique the almost bullet hell enemy design is.

Environmental Station Alpha: Feels like a minimalistic Metroid at first, but really nails the feeling of mystery on its extremely cryptic post game. Like if you're doing some kind of arg inside the game, it's hard to explain.

FWIW I've played all of these but Bunny Must Die, and I think HK is vastly better than any of them. There's a reason it did well, and it's not that people haven't played other metroidvanias.
 

Dogui

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,932
Brazil
I wasn't being facetious at all - appreciate the recommendations! When you say that claims of HK's greatness are hollow if they haven't also tried certain other games, then I definitely want to know specifically what those other games are that are being referenced. I've only played 2 of those, and another 2 of them I never heard of (Untilted Story and Bunny Must Die... looking at videos of those two I think it's fairly outrageous to say that I would need to play these before being able to say that HK is an all-time great, but w/e) so it gives me things to check out.

I personally agree that Fusion is better than SM, but I get why people lean towards SM. Although it's not my preference the quality is still apparent.

Never said you need to play all of those to consider HK one of the best, but it would be cool if people consider playing them.

Untitled Story is mostly known for being developed by Maddy Thorson (From Celeste fame) and it's criminal how a game this good is free.
 

Happy Puppy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,542
I was hoping the spike was cause of Silksong .... wake me up when it releases, playing it on the steam deck is going to be sweat.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
11,032
I actually will never forgive anyone who said they hated the map if Silksong takes it out because "QoL" or whatever.
People didn't like the map?!? What

It is possibly the best map system I've used. Different markers for diff things, super easy access to the map, very readable. It's a fantastic map. And the thrill of hearing Cornifer and following his paper trail so you can finally get your precious map back. I don't understand these naysayers.

xup8im22ck921.jpg
 

Mocha Joe

Member
Jun 2, 2021
9,762
People didn't like the map?!? What

It is possibly the best map system I've used. Different markers for diff things, super easy access to the map, very readable. It's a fantastic map. And the thrill of hearing Cornifer and following his paper trail so you can finally get your precious map back. I don't understand these naysayers.

xup8im22ck921.jpg
it really isn't from a UI / UX perspective a great map
 

bushmonkey

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,651
There's something in the air… we've had Hollow Knight on switch from day 1 and then again on PS4 when it came out on there too because I loved it so much. my 13 year old had no interest in playing it at all despite everything I said. For some reason, he decided to start playing it last week out of the blue.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
People didn't like the map?!? What

It is possibly the best map system I've used. Different markers for diff things, super easy access to the map, very readable. It's a fantastic map. And the thrill of hearing Cornifer and following his paper trail so you can finally get your precious map back. I don't understand these naysayers.

xup8im22ck921.jpg

The map system was extremely cumbersome and pace-breaking for me. Needing to stop every so often just to see what spots I missed. Cornifer does nothing for me as I have hearing loss and can't easily discern sounds (especially if music is in the background). Not to mention, you're incentivized to use charms, but you needed to equip a charm to be able to track yourself on a map, and you can't change that without finding another bench. That created a huge break between needing exploration-based charms and combat-focused charms (especially when you don't necessarily know if you're at a potential boss room).

I've never really felt this way about Symphony of the Night, Super Metroid, or any of the other Metroidvanias that I've played.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
it really isn't from a UI / UX perspective a great map
I dunno man there were plenty of times I'd get a new ability, look at the map, and be able to make a pretty good guess if I could now access a path I had been to previously but then left because I couldn't go there yet, because the shape of the individual rooms influences the shape of the map itself unlike other Metroidvanias like Super Metroid and Symphony of the Night. If I now have Wall Climb and Double Jump, I can probably go any old room on the map with a vertical shaft that hasn't been fully explored, and that's before adding in the markers you can buy at the map shop.

The map system was extremely cumbersome and pace-breaking for me. Needing to stop every so often just to see what spots I missed. Cornifer does nothing for me as I have hearing loss and can't easily discern sounds (especially if music is in the background). Not to mention, you're incentivized to use charms, but you needed to equip a charm to be able to track yourself on a map, and you can't change that without finding another bench. That created a huge break between needing exploration-based charms and combat-focused charms (especially when you don't necessarily know if you're at a potential boss room).

I've never really felt this way about Symphony of the Night, Super Metroid, or any of the other Metroidvanias that I've played.
The bolded is absolutely a terrible mistake that needs to be rectified in Silksong, yeah.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
Eh? That's...what exploring is. Cumbersome? You press a button.

I agree with your other criticisms though, but they aren't really related to the map

The problem is that when you hold the button to go into quick look, there's a translucent layer in the menu but the locales are already so dark and sometimes difficult to discern, unless you're in Greenpath, the Mines or the Mushroom area. The other thing that's bullshit is needing to go to the bench to be able to trace the map. This is an instance of something that makes sense from a story standpoint, but is absolutely terrible in terms of gameplay. There's no reason why we couldn't have a minimap with the ability to trace as we're exploring. Too many people conflate getting lost with exploration, when exploration is about discovering new things.

As for the other criticisms, they are related to the map system though, needing to equip Wayward Compass (unless you have a big brain memory bank), in addition to the limited number of charm slots (until you upgrade them) has a direct impact on your charm loadout as you're playing the game.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
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Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I''m not opposed to the map filling out as you go, I suppose. Nothing further, though.
 

JudgmentJay

Member
Nov 14, 2017
5,266
Texas
Too many people conflate getting lost with exploration, when exploration is about discovering new things.

Getting lost (and then eventually finding your way) was one of the core design philosophies behind the game. The map mechanic was done in a way to support that. It's natural that some people don't like it especially if you dislike being lost in a video game, but they've stated that they're happy with the balance they struck.
 

slothrop

â–˛ Legend â–˛
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Aug 28, 2019
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When folks complain that it is BS that you feel lost and they should just let you not be lost... I feel like it is missing the point. The game is trying to make you feel lost. Very intentionally! The game is perfectly realizing an intended mechanic by forcing you to expend resources (both cognitively and in-game) to feel less lost... Its a somewhat unique twist! You are right other games don't give this feeling to player, because they are not trying to, unlike this game, which is trying to.


I get not liking it, thats fine, but it is misunderstanding what the game is trying to do to say it failed here -- it succeeded in doing something that you don't happen to like.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
11,032
The problem is that when you hold the button to go into quick look, there's a translucent layer in the menu but the locales are already so dark and sometimes difficult to discern, unless you're in Greenpath, the Mines or the Mushroom area. The other thing that's bullshit is needing to go to the bench to be able to trace the map. This is an instance of something that makes sense from a story standpoint, but is absolutely terrible in terms of gameplay. There's no reason why we couldn't have a minimap with the ability to trace as we're exploring. Too many people conflate getting lost with exploration, when exploration is about discovering new things.

As for the other criticisms, they are related to the map system though, needing to equip Wayward Compass (unless you have a big brain memory bank), in addition to the limited number of charm slots (until you upgrade them) has a direct impact on your charm loadout as you're playing the game.
I can't refute your experience, only that it was the best map system I've had the pleasure of using to explore this neat underground arthropod kingdom. I hope they don't change anything (except making the wayward compass always on, like the glowbug lantern). Having a minimap would be weird and is obviously not something the developers intended with the experience. You are the knight and explorer, you have to check your map, you have to orient yourself and choose your destination, you have to sketch the map when you can. It's wonderfully done. Having to determine the best route I should take to deliver the delicate flower was fun and always checking my map to make sure I'm following the correct bearings. It felt like I was back in the wilderness, checking my map to determine my general location in comparison to my visible surroundings from my canoe. Making changes to the map when I notice it was out of date or to show a difficult to find portage.
 
Oct 26, 2017
8,734
When folks complain that it is BS that you feel lost and they should just let you not be lost... I feel like it is missing the point. The game is trying to make you feel lost. Very intentionally! The game is perfectly realizing an intended mechanic by forcing you to expend resources (both cognitively and in-game) to feel less lost... Its a somewhat unique twist! You are right other games don't give this feeling to player, because they are not trying to, unlike this game, which is trying to.


I get not liking it, thats fine, but it is misunderstanding what the game is trying to do to say it failed here -- it succeeded in doing something that you don't happen to like.

That's not what I said though. I specifically said that it's bullshit when you need to find another bench to be able to trace the portions of the map.
Also, I'm not sure why rectifying the map would make it any less cognitively draining. You'd still need to figure out a way from where you're going.

The closest example I can think of is Super Metroid. You have access to the minimap when the game was intentionally designed with the idea of being lost in a primitive planet. Although you still needed to acquire map data from a station (which is functionally similar to going to Cornifer), the minimap did an incredible job at helping you track where you are and figure out what forks in the road that you wanted to take. And it did that without really losing the sense of exploration.
 

bounchfx

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,720
Muricas
When folks complain that it is BS that you feel lost and they should just let you not be lost... I feel like it is missing the point. The game is trying to make you feel lost. Very intentionally! The game is perfectly realizing an intended mechanic by forcing you to expend resources (both cognitively and in-game) to feel less lost... Its a somewhat unique twist! You are right other games don't give this feeling to player, because they are not trying to, unlike this game, which is trying to.


I get not liking it, thats fine, but it is misunderstanding what the game is trying to do to say it failed here -- it succeeded in doing something that you don't happen to like.

seriously.
i was in the frustrated camp at first, (before i found or even knew about the maps), and was annoyed how lost I was, because I was comparing it to all the previous games in the genre that I loved. its probably in my top 3 fav genres. i quit for a while but after seeing all the hype building back up I said fuck it, I need to find out why people like this so much.

a few hours later it clicked and holy shit did it click. Like, I never had such a rush trying to fucking not die while finding my way around to either a safe area/bench or the map from conifer. the sense of relief after reaching one too is exhilarating. and like you said, the sense of feeling lost, really lost, especially in new zones gave me a sense of dread that I really have not experienced in other games in the genre. I applaud them for taking such a bold design choice and it gives the game a lot of its flavor.

also, as importantly, because I didnt have little squares in the corner of my screen, i actually had to like, you know, learn the map. And I did. and games are so much more interesting when you actually recognize landmarks in the environment and know your way around without needing or relying on the map entirely.

i have this problem with a lot of games, and I know it's not just me. We've become so fuckin used to staring at the minimap or in open world games like AC it's just overlays of fucking diamonds everywhere that if they took all of that away and you were looking at the same area, most players would have no clue where they were, no actual recognizable space unless you found some unique landmarks. and I kind of miss the experience of actually knowing and learning an environment. I know it's not 100% the devs fault for trying to make it easier to navigate massive and often confusing worlds design-wise (how else would a player really know where to go?) but a byproduct of that is you lose that sense of really getting to know an environment
 

slothrop

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Aug 28, 2019
3,970
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That's not what I said though. I specifically said that it's bullshit when you need to find another bench to be able to trace the portions of the map.
Also, I'm not sure why rectifying the map would make it any less cognitively draining. You'd still need to figure out a way from where you're going.

The closest example I can think of is Super Metroid. You have access to the minimap when the game was intentionally designed with the idea of being lost in a primitive planet. Although you still needed to acquire map data from a station (which is functionally similar to going to Cornifer), the minimap did an incredible job at helping you track where you are and figure out what forks in the road that you wanted to take. And it did that without really losing the sense of exploration.
Youre still missing the point imo. Again, Hollow Knight wants you to feel lost. Its not using Super Metroid as a benchmark. It wants you to feel even more lost! So it takes away a lot of this stuff that makes it easier to track in other games such as Super Metroid. "Helping you track where you are and figure out what forks in the road that you wanted to take" would undermine this. You're saying a game can have a strong sense of exploration without making you feel lost. I agree. Thats not relevant though. A game cannot have a strong sense of making you feel lost without making you feel lost.

You lose track of things, because it wants you to struggle with this. It wants you to get disoriented, or at least struggle with it a bit. idk what else to say. If the game was trying to make it easy to get around and then gave us this disorienting map system, you would be highlighting ways to improve it, sure. But you are not addressing the game on its own terms, you are talking about some ideal different type of game entirely.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,568
People didn't like the map?!? What

It is possibly the best map system I've used. Different markers for diff things, super easy access to the map, very readable. It's a fantastic map. And the thrill of hearing Cornifer and following his paper trail so you can finally get your precious map back. I don't understand these naysayers.

xup8im22ck921.jpg

People hating on the map system in HK is one of the most baffling things. It's genius. It lets you actually explore the world and discover it for yourself. The block-based automap that had become commonplace in the genre had really spoiled people's idea of what exploration in a metroidvania is. Team Cherry took a risk and it paid off.
 

Servbot24

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
43,539
I was intimidated by the map system for about an hour then quickly came to love it. I hope they don't give in to the complaints on Silksong.
 

HK-47

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,663
I signposted HK by associating the shaping of rooms with how they look on the map. The only falling of the map is the annoyance of the compass charm. Just make that a non charm upgrade or something.
 

ADS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
875
I actually will never forgive anyone who said they hated the map if Silksong takes it out because "QoL" or whatever.

I'm so happy to see opinions like this. I love the way the map works in Holow Knight. I can still remember vividly the times when I got lost in a new area and found my way to a bench by the skin of my teeth. It really gives that feeling of exploring a beautiful but intimidating world.
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I'm so happy to see opinions like this. I love the way the map works in Holow Knight. I can still remember vividly the times when I got lost in a new area and found my way to a bench by the skin of my teeth. It really gives that feeling of exploring a beautiful but intimidating world.
Yeah like I know I said above that I'd be fine if the map filled as you continued onward instead of only filling at benches but that's begrudgingly. The map as something you acquire early in every area (and you can just fucking buy it if you miss it) and chart for yourself, that there's this chunk of exploration in every new area where you genuinely are lost, that's special to me and I don't want it to go away.

(I mean, the part where you use up a charm slot should go away, though)
 

Servbot24

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
43,539
I think that my Quality Of Life as I explore the depths of hell should be more carefully considered
 

Weiss

User requested ban
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Oct 25, 2017
64,265
I think that my Quality Of Life as I explore the depths of hell should be more carefully considered
Quality of Life became a tern of encompassing hatred for me when I learned everyone really hated that Yakuza: Like a Dragon has Game Over on protagonist death, even though the entire battle system is contextualized in the plot as Ichiban hallucinating his street fights as RPG battles and if he were to be knocked out the altered reality you're perceiving through Ichiban ceases to exist.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
Lmao @ "people only like hollow knight because they don't play other Metroidvanias"
Quality of Life became a tern of encompassing hatred for me when I learned everyone really hated that Yakuza: Like a Dragon has Game Over on protagonist death, even though the entire battle system is contextualized in the plot as Ichiban hallucinating his street fights as RPG battles and if he were to be knocked out the altered reality you're perceiving through Ichiban ceases to exist.
Can't it just be him dreaming at that point, or half-conscious?
 

Weiss

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Oct 25, 2017
64,265
Lmao @ "people only like hollow knight because they don't play other Metroidvanias"

Can't it just be him dreaming at that point, or half-conscious?
Hypothetically you could come up with any reason for any scenario as video game development involves tricking a box full of lightning that a universe exists inside of it.

Sometimes game design involves choices that don't let you do what you want all the time without any consequence or restriction.
 

Spring-Loaded

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,904
Hypothetically you could come up with any reason for any scenario as video game development involves tricking a box full of lightning that a universe exists inside of it.

Sometimes game design involves choices that don't let you do what you want all the time without any consequence or restriction.

but lead ko=game over is just purely bad in that type of game. You don't truly gain anything you can't get through other means
 

Weiss

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
64,265
but lead ko=game over is just purely bad in that type of game. You don't truly gain anything you can't get through other means
You gain a combat system where you are in meaningful danger of actually losing fights instead of just entering a constant cycle of heals and revives. Sometimes game design involves choices that don't let you do what you want all the time without any consequence or restriction.

Much like how Hollow Knight gained a more explorative edge based on being lost in a vast tomb of a once great civilization by forcing you to map the entire place out for yourself, and then made you put a little effort, not too much, but a little into getting those maps in the first place.
 

ThisIsMyDogKyle

Prophet of Truth - One Winged Slayer
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Oct 25, 2017
2,181
In the same way as HK, i really like SOTN and SM, but of course they have a bigger historical reason to be so loved. I'm not arguing against any of them being high quality games, but at the same time i don't think they're 3 steps above everything else. Personally i think Metroid Fusion is better than SM and Order of Ecclesia is better than SOTN, though obviously they aren't as important in terms of impact.

Maybe because it's mostly an "indie" genre aside Nintendo with Metroid nowadays, but different from other genres, i feel like popular Metroidvanias doesn't really increase the popularity of the genre itself.

I feel like you're being facetious about the list part, but whatever, some stuff to consider:

Valdis Story: It has probably the best combat in a side scrolling game, with lots of diablo like build possibilities and 4 different characters. It's probably more on the hard side but it's the golden standard for combat in Metroidvanias for me.

La-Mulana 1/2: Nothing beats them in terms of tight non linear level design. They are packed with content, but never feel bloated.

Unepic: Another enormous metroidvania, packed with unique, diverse level design and a pseudo D&D character progression. It ends with a rather weird tower defense setpiece but it's great how the game tries to feel really different every area.

Castle in the Darkness: Just an honest and tight game with a similar jump and slash routine to HK and really fun map that is similar to SOTN, in the way it starts linear but branches well in different paths later.

Untitled Story: More focused in precision platforming but with super fun non linear level design. It's free and imo every fan of the genre with any kind of computer should try it atleast once.

Bunny Must Die: A lot of people on Era would probably hate the super weeby aesthetics, but i love how unique the almost bullet hell enemy design is.

Environmental Station Alpha: Feels like a minimalistic Metroid at first, but really nails the feeling of mystery on its extremely cryptic post game. Like if you're doing some kind of arg inside the game, it's hard to explain.

Dunno how many would like these more than HK or even like them for starters, but they're worth a play and deliver experiences you won't see in HK, for sure.

I think in the end i also don't understand how Chrono Trigger is so much better than other stuff or how Ocarina of Time is so much better than other stuff in the same way with HK.



I think people itt are taking it backwards. I'm very happy that HK sold a lot and i think it's clearly deserved. But holy fuck there's so many great stuff in the genre that gets only the crumbs. HK not being a ladder for the genre is super frustrating.

In hindsight, it was probably not the best idea to post it in this specific thread and i can see how pretentious i sound when i say that. But i still want to stand to my point, just maybe don't know how to express it better.
I've actually thought about this a good bit myself. As a massive metroidvania fan, I've played all the games you listed but one, love most of them, and someone that Hollow Knight basically was EXACTLY what I had wanted from a metroidvania for a very long time, so take my opinion with a grain of salt I guess lol, but I think it's a combination of a few things.

First of all, I think there were a pretty good number of people, like me, that were waiting for a massive, very non-linear, metroidvania. The standard length for metroidvania's is generally pretty short obvously, which I generally really like but I had been waiting for someone to try to make a massive, non-linear, metroidvania that was at least serviceable in the areas I consider important to what a makes a metroidvania a metroidvania.

Secondly, getting into those things that make a metroidvania a good metroidvania I'd say there are 4 main things. 1. Map Design/Exploration. 2. Satisfying Controls/Platforming. 3. Combat/Boss Battles 4. Good Upgrades. Most indie metroidvania's seem to focus a lot on one or two of these and often have at least one that is a bit rough. I think you can pretty easily argue Hollow Knight is top tier in Exploration/Combat/Upgrades and really good, if unexciting, with it's controls. But again, that might be some of my personal bias lol.

Lastly, timing and pricing. When it launched it actually didn't sell super well, it was released RIGHT before both Horizon Zero Dawn and Breath of the Wild, needless to say it was very overshadowed. However it had some of the most positive and frequent word of mouth for almost any game I've ever played, that combined with it's $15 price meant when it went on that first steam sale a few months after release it really exploded. It kept selling well over the year but then the Switch release happened, at the time there was only really one other well known standard metroidvania on the system(Axiom Verge).

This combo of being a pretty straightforward, standard metroidvania, aka a good entry point to the genre, while also being a legit very good one in a lot of areas, while ALSO only being $15 makes it VERY easy to recommend to someone that's new to the genre, which I think a lot of HK players are. Even more so right after it released on Switch when there both hadn't been a huge number of games on Switch at that point in 2018 and not many in the genre it's in on the system period at that point. Led to it really exploding and just having a snowballing effect from there.

I'm completely with you in not understanding why it hasn't acted as a ladder to other games in the genre though, or maybe it has but it's simply acting as an entry point and then say 30% of the players pick up 1 or 2 of the, like, 20 other great semi-popular metroidvanias and it simply dilutes the effect a lot.
 
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