How long will the next gen 60fps train last?
- Thread starter MercuryLS
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If the PS5 can't run it at 60fps, how will it run on a PS4? 15fps?
Wasn't that bothered before but I hope resolution/performance modes become the norm. From RE2/RE3/MGSV etc at 60fps on my PS4 pro was so smooth and clean. I did adore TLOU2 at 30fps but replaying it at 60fps on my ps5 is too good! I'm probably chatting shit as I know nothing about hardware or graphics but playing at 60fps the graphics look cleaner and smoother.
im pretty much there. only game i might break the rule on would be a bloodborne 2.
If I need to provide basic data or show where some notions that I list are coming from I will, but it will just clutter what is to come.
The train will last depending on the workflow the title places on the consoles.
The beauty of this is if devs decide to make gpu bound game at 30fps at 4k this leaves more than enough over for them to have 1080p to 1440p solution that will have plenty of fps left over. Thanks to their short sightedness and pursuit of resolution we have lucked in to a benefit if your not interested in resolution increase. If the engine isn't ass in pacing or capping itself plenty of benchmarks are showing often titles that have 30-60fps 4k still have excess left over when asked to render at a more reasonable resolution.
This doesn't mean all titles will have 60fps or 60fps plus but at the very least power isn't the problem here nor will it be as gen goes on. Ryzen 3700 are damn good at producing, consistently keeping frames and not bottoming out compared to any jaguar pc know which can't run some engines anything like that one can let alone Ryzen 1700.
Devs have base parts and optimization on their side with consoles that are effectively armed with ram, gpu, cpu, and IO capabilities never seen on a console before. The question needs to be couched what type of game and what resolution internally is it aiming for. nvidia 2080 variants and 6700 radeons are pretty good cards but their cap is 1440p plus rendering compared to a 3080/3090 with an equal cpu.
The strive for 4k is impractical on the gpu the devs have. When they reach rnda 2 territory with a chip that performs more like 6800 they could. 6700 lose out when you push them to that realm. Won't stop it happening but it's pathetic we are giving up a ton of practical power to cut fps in half for games that won't look 50% better
The idea devs are just going to cut fps and get magical next gen graphics is incredibly absurd to me. Lets think about that in order to reach that point on said consoles of power you'd need to have titles that are better than flight simulator 2020, cyberpunk, and RDR2 to say the least. Most devs can't even strive now to get there. Next gen is great and amazing to me but people placing expectations on buzz words better tell themselves they aren't seeing 50% better than what I mentioned. We have no clue how dlss and vrs will tilt performance metrics as well in ground up titles.
The train will last depending on the workflow the title places on the consoles.
The beauty of this is if devs decide to make gpu bound game at 30fps at 4k this leaves more than enough over for them to have 1080p to 1440p solution that will have plenty of fps left over. Thanks to their short sightedness and pursuit of resolution we have lucked in to a benefit if your not interested in resolution increase. If the engine isn't ass in pacing or capping itself plenty of benchmarks are showing often titles that have 30-60fps 4k still have excess left over when asked to render at a more reasonable resolution.
This doesn't mean all titles will have 60fps or 60fps plus but at the very least power isn't the problem here nor will it be as gen goes on. Ryzen 3700 are damn good at producing, consistently keeping frames and not bottoming out compared to any jaguar pc know which can't run some engines anything like that one can let alone Ryzen 1700.
Devs have base parts and optimization on their side with consoles that are effectively armed with ram, gpu, cpu, and IO capabilities never seen on a console before. The question needs to be couched what type of game and what resolution internally is it aiming for. nvidia 2080 variants and 6700 radeons are pretty good cards but their cap is 1440p plus rendering compared to a 3080/3090 with an equal cpu.
The strive for 4k is impractical on the gpu the devs have. When they reach rnda 2 territory with a chip that performs more like 6800 they could. 6700 lose out when you push them to that realm. Won't stop it happening but it's pathetic we are giving up a ton of practical power to cut fps in half for games that won't look 50% better
The idea devs are just going to cut fps and get magical next gen graphics is incredibly absurd to me. Lets think about that in order to reach that point on said consoles of power you'd need to have titles that are better than flight simulator 2020, cyberpunk, and RDR2 to say the least. Most devs can't even strive now to get there. Next gen is great and amazing to me but people placing expectations on buzz words better tell themselves they aren't seeing 50% better than what I mentioned. We have no clue how dlss and vrs will tilt performance metrics as well in ground up titles.
If they can run the game on a PS4, they can do a 60 fps mode on PS5 somehow.
Yup, this is the only reason i didnt buy Watch Dogs legion at launch
The basic reasons is engine development isn't easy and dev making caps or not caring vs someone who does is stark.
It's insanity pc gamers have to presets that aren't equal to consoles in parity. I get the high end spec but as I age I just like an engine that is fluid and smooth after I get past 900p natively, dlss/checkboarding/internal rendering scaling makes that need even less. You get no options on console if you're a potato gamer. Performance modes should encouraged or rewarded vs mandated. We have tech that sure fire win but it's not dealt with cause devs are still stuck in the last century in offering access to such options. We can hide this stuff from casual consumers and enable power menus with factory resets for the idiots.
The makers have no way to force this or decent frame pacing, respond with your wallet.
I've said this multiple times already: there never were any reason to not have this in any previous gen either.
Once the games will start targeting 30 fps on new console CPUs there won't be any easy way of making a 60 fps "mode" or "preset".
And they will start doing this once they'll drop PS4/XBO as the base target.
60 fps on consoles are happening because pretty much everything is crossgen for now.
I play a ton of fighting games so I feel pretty safe to say that I don't think any of them will have issues maintaining 60 for the next few years
The genre is pretty safe cause most devs want a tickrate, animation, and fps of that value.
Hopefully some devs spend time on decent infrastructure or netcode for their games maybe even push for sdk/kernel that is friendly to their needs vs what they got.
I agree, this should have been available for a while. What's done is done though and I am just of the mindset that what I'm seeing done now, I hope continues.
If it doesn't then I think it's a shame. Even if development targets 30fps what's really to stop them from adjusting resolution or removing things like ray tracing to allow for an increase in frame rate? I am no developer so I'm genuinely asking because I don't know.
Edit - In addition there always exists the Series S. For 3rd party I would have to think just about every game would have two builds. Again, not a developer so don't know lol.
How often do you expect to see cpu-limited AAA games this generation? My thinking is that examples of such will be limited mostly to specific genres that are known to tax CPUs, like games with intricate procedurally-generated elements, large-scale RTS/sim games, etc. GPU-limited 30fps games are my expectation, though I don't expect them to be common. Mostly, games that use raytracing for vital elements of their audiovisual packages. Games where raytracing can't really be pared back or eliminated entirely.
Why would they suddenly drop performance modes? They've been a thing for 5 years now on console, why would they suddenly disappear?
You see it as disappearing I see it as a lack of time and priority spent implementing it in a title.
Unless its already in the title in question somebody has to do the work.
I hope we don't regress but consistency in this area isn't a thing to rely on only hope for. This is why I'm a late buyer.
I agree
otherwise they wouldn't have the option baked in at the system level on ps5
Enough of the speculation from users we got devs here in the forum. Can we get them to chime in on if upcoming projects using the full power of these consoles are staying exclusively to 30FPS again or are they considering working performance modes targeting 60FPS in all future projects?
It's permanent.
During the 360/PS3 generation franchises like Battlefield, Halo, Gears of War, Uncharted multiplayer, etc. we're all 30fps.
That changed at the start of the ps4/xb1 generation. Battlefield 4 was 60fps. So was Halo, and the multiplayer modes for Gears and Uncharted. There was no "end" to this even as, for example, Battlefield stopped being cross-gen.
During the 360/PS3 generation franchises like Battlefield, Halo, Gears of War, Uncharted multiplayer, etc. we're all 30fps.
That changed at the start of the ps4/xb1 generation. Battlefield 4 was 60fps. So was Halo, and the multiplayer modes for Gears and Uncharted. There was no "end" to this even as, for example, Battlefield stopped being cross-gen.
Shooters - forever 60fps.
3rd person action - split modes always
I could see a few narrative games at 30fps, but I think 60 is here to stay. Also, it's really a Dev choice from here on out. The power is there to do 60fps always if you compromise in other areas.
3rd person action - split modes always
I could see a few narrative games at 30fps, but I think 60 is here to stay. Also, it's really a Dev choice from here on out. The power is there to do 60fps always if you compromise in other areas.
It's not speculation to say how devs have operated the last 4 generations won't be changing much this one.
It's case by case and until as you say devs confirm for it title there's not much to do.
It's all speculation until you can get concrete data from people actually working with these new consoles. Especially since this generation comes off from the last that introduced updates SKUs with high end hardware that allowed performance and graphical modes, which makes this generation rather different to older ones when the only other SKU was a slimmed down model.
Would love to hear more developers talk about it. Especially considering the marketing behind these platform consistently advertises higher framerates than before with 120hz capability, and if Microsoft and Sony want games from devs supporting these modes in future projects.
Scaling of GPU limited portion (resolution, RT) is relatively easy although it will add up a lot of work too if the original target was 30 fps and the renderer is written with this intent in the first place - which is why some 30 fps console games don't scale too well to 60 fps even on PCs which are 10X more powerful than the consoles they were aiming at.
Scaling of CPU limited portion is much harder, to the point where it is actually impossible because it would prompt a full redesign of the game's main mechanic.
Right at this moment most games are solely GPU limited because they target previous gen CPUs which are considerably weaker than what's in new consoles. Once they will stop doing this it won't be as easy to get 60 fps in every new game since some of them may consciously target 30.
XSS has the same CPU as XSX precisely for that reason. You can scale GPU rendering part relatively easy by lowering resolution and using lower quality for some effects.
I expect such games to be the norm in the second half of this console generation.
People think for some reason that it's hard to make full use of an 8C Zen2 CPUs in games. It is not. A most trivial example here would be an advanced usage of a physics middleware - which is already available, you don't even need to code it yourself. There are numerous other less trivial examples too.
Console games are generally both CPU and GPU limited because when you're using only one to 100% and the other to even 75% then you're not making full use of the h/w.
So if a console game is targeting 30 fps as a design goal then it will most likely target it on both CPU and GPU utilizations.
RT in particular is a peculiar argument I've heard multiple times - as if using RT somehow prevents a game from using 100% of the CPU.
In practice it is likely the opposite - not only because RT itself have a rather high CPU cost but also because RT leads to higher game world dynamics which in turn lead to higher CPU load on game world simulation.
There are two questions which remain open for now:
1. How long will the crossgen period last this time? It already seem to last about twice as long as during the previous generation switch, maybe it will last even longer than that? Well into 2023? If yes then there's a huge chance that most console games will still be able to target 60 fps till then.
2. How many devs will opt to target 60 fps baseline this gen? This isn't something impossible, many devs made this choice on PS4/XBO and it's totally possible that even more devs will opt for 60 fps this gen. If yes then it is possible that there will be _more_ 60 fps games on consoles this gen, potentially with 30 fps "enhanced graphics" modes instead.
I don't really get this rationale. So 30fps games see an increase in graphic fidelity over the generation but 60fps games won't so devs won't do it? Or is this a devs lack of time and resources thing?
I agree that most Xbox First Party titles will provide a performance mode going forward. It's Playstation First Party that I'm worried about.
Looking at PS1 to PS2, the first couple 3D gens, and then PS3 to PS4 to PS5, the post-HD gens, the simplest and likeliest answer as far as I can tell if we don't want to just settle for "idk, wait and see" is that more kinds of games will run at 60fps this new gen compared to the immediately preceding gen.
Same as how besides Call of Duty, shooters couldn't reasonably be expected to run at 60fps on PS3/360 and yet it's been such a given on PS4/XBO that many often act in these conversations like shooters are among the few games where devs care to run at 60fps, forgetting the compromise they had to make just a gen before the last one. Running at 30fps is a compromise that seemingly gets easier to forgo as hardware gets more powerful and as a result games can get close enough to whatever ambitions developers have for them while running at a higher framerate.
The games that would've already ran at 60fps last gen (most shooters, platformers, sports games, racing games, fighting games, Capcom's recent RE engine games, etc.) probably won't suddenly target 30fps so while whether enough games will go from 30fps to 60fps+ to say that the 60fps train kept on rolling all throughout the gen remains to be seen, at least it's safe to say that the share of games running at 60fps+ this gen will just get higher.
As someone who'll mostly be playing on PC, I just hope the Sony exclusives (first-party and all the Square games they seem to keep moneyhatting) keep having 60fps options. The current new-gen only examples and the option for setting fidelity/performance targets at the OS levels are already positive signs.
Same as how besides Call of Duty, shooters couldn't reasonably be expected to run at 60fps on PS3/360 and yet it's been such a given on PS4/XBO that many often act in these conversations like shooters are among the few games where devs care to run at 60fps, forgetting the compromise they had to make just a gen before the last one. Running at 30fps is a compromise that seemingly gets easier to forgo as hardware gets more powerful and as a result games can get close enough to whatever ambitions developers have for them while running at a higher framerate.
The games that would've already ran at 60fps last gen (most shooters, platformers, sports games, racing games, fighting games, Capcom's recent RE engine games, etc.) probably won't suddenly target 30fps so while whether enough games will go from 30fps to 60fps+ to say that the 60fps train kept on rolling all throughout the gen remains to be seen, at least it's safe to say that the share of games running at 60fps+ this gen will just get higher.
As someone who'll mostly be playing on PC, I just hope the Sony exclusives (first-party and all the Square games they seem to keep moneyhatting) keep having 60fps options. The current new-gen only examples and the option for setting fidelity/performance targets at the OS levels are already positive signs.
Hearing opinion of developers would be great, but they can only talk about their game and don't know the answer for every dev out there, because "these new console" don't matter in this discussion a lot. After all targeting 30, 60, 120 is a choice first and foremost and even on PS15 (+ Xbox equivalent) games could be pushed and then only run with 30 FPS.
it will be the standard this gen, no doubt about it.
for one, I think this time is the easiest to implement such settings.
the graphics don't take a massive hit and even if the graphics are downgraded, they still look beautiful.
I think this gen is the gen where the game makers will push for framerates and next gen even more so. We will probably see a shift from 30fps to 60fps this gen and sacrifice native 4k resolutions to stuff like reconstruction or SuperFX.
there's already so much resources being poured into reconstruction and machine-learning techniques, much more than the push for 4K, in both marketing and research.
This gen will be about the framerate, and next gen will be about ray-tracing at high framerates. mark it.
last gen, even if PS4 was a lot more powerful than PS3, we did not see a lot of push for 60fps in cross-gen titles. this time, pretty much every crossgen game got a 60fps mode or runs at 60 locked. I am very positive that this will carry on throughout the whole gen.
I also personally think devs are much more inclined to do 60fps over native 4k.
for one, I think this time is the easiest to implement such settings.
the graphics don't take a massive hit and even if the graphics are downgraded, they still look beautiful.
I think this gen is the gen where the game makers will push for framerates and next gen even more so. We will probably see a shift from 30fps to 60fps this gen and sacrifice native 4k resolutions to stuff like reconstruction or SuperFX.
there's already so much resources being poured into reconstruction and machine-learning techniques, much more than the push for 4K, in both marketing and research.
This gen will be about the framerate, and next gen will be about ray-tracing at high framerates. mark it.
last gen, even if PS4 was a lot more powerful than PS3, we did not see a lot of push for 60fps in cross-gen titles. this time, pretty much every crossgen game got a 60fps mode or runs at 60 locked. I am very positive that this will carry on throughout the whole gen.
I also personally think devs are much more inclined to do 60fps over native 4k.
there's always going to be a compromise, no matter what. years from now, hardware still won't be able to do everything graphically at high framerates. there's always room for bigger, better, shinier.
Not every game is on the platform however. Which is why it's better to have multiple platforms if you can. I mean, imagine still waiting to play GOW on PC 3 years after the Console version release.
I have a 3080 PC so the moment a game won't support at least 60 on console I'm playing on PC (depending on the genre though, some games I can still stomach at 30 like the Medium).
Already I'll prefer the PC version but I'll often buy on console to play with friends in games which don't support cross-play.
And for the achievements/trophies.
Already I'll prefer the PC version but I'll often buy on console to play with friends in games which don't support cross-play.
And for the achievements/trophies.
If it was we wouldn't have 60fps modes in the first place.
Years from now the compromise will be 60 instead of 120fps. We didn't go back to 480p once 1080p became a thing. And 1080p slowly becomes a relic of the past, now that we have 4k with 1440p being the compromise. Technical standards evolve. Since release of the PS4 Pro in 2016 we're seeing more and more "performance modes" targeting 60fps. That means the amount of games running at 60fps since the last 5 years has increased, not decreased.
There will be a point when 30fps will be a relic of the past, just like 480p is a relic of the past, no matter how hard backward thinkers try to argue otherwise.
Absolutely.
I've collected the posts by users saying they won't buy 30fps games anymore. People are getting spoiled by higher framerates now, just like people got spoiled by higher resolution in the past. High framerates are here to stay, just as high resolution is here to stay. Manufacturers even slap "120fps" logos on console boxes now.
Why do you think that? Because for 5 years now, since "performance modes" were introduced in 2016 with release of the PS4 Pro, games running at 60fps have become more common.
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Is it running at native 4K on PS5? Maybe the PS4 version will be 1080p.
Hard to discuss such a thing without knowing the current load on consoles. I can't imagine based on pure hardware that these consoles are not able to hit a 60 fps target (with whatever compromises in visuals to hit that), because then I can kiss my computer goodbye for these upcoming games in the near future. Seems like 60fps would be impossible to hit on a lot of PC's too then.
Probably not every dev has the resources or intention to provide different modes, but I expect it to be a lot more frequent and realistic to expect a game to have some 60fps mode.
1 game for example, The Medium, was where I could understand why it was limited to 30fps, but it was also not running as well on higher-end hardware (without DLSS).
Probably not every dev has the resources or intention to provide different modes, but I expect it to be a lot more frequent and realistic to expect a game to have some 60fps mode.
1 game for example, The Medium, was where I could understand why it was limited to 30fps, but it was also not running as well on higher-end hardware (without DLSS).
Same idea, if this game is 1080 30fps on PS4, why wouldn't it have a 60fps mode on PS5? The game looks very good from what we saw but it's not really doing anything crazy with physics and ray tracing, so why wouldn't it? It has to and I just don't see why a crossgen game would release without it. I don't see next-gen games releasing without it anytime soon.
For Xbox I think it will always be a priority
I think Sony will push for the higher graphics which is unfortunate but their business decision.
Nintendo? Their games aren't exactly powerhouse graphical titles to begin with so I hope the switch revision gets some 60 frames up in there.
I personally will not play a 30fps game again.
I think Sony will push for the higher graphics which is unfortunate but their business decision.
Nintendo? Their games aren't exactly powerhouse graphical titles to begin with so I hope the switch revision gets some 60 frames up in there.
I personally will not play a 30fps game again.
