Ashes of Dreams

Fallen Guardian of Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
15,446
The level cap being 50 implies to me that they don't intend to fully reset everything, otherwise they'd have just let us get to 99. At the same time, they still don't know how many games this is going to be, so it wouldn't make sense to start off the second one with fully maxed out materia and a bunch of weapon skills. Yes there are levels above Firaga in some FF games, but not enough to justify continuing to max out materia for several new games.

Though I still think people are too caught up in viewing this like an episodic release of one game. The devs have made it clear it's more like a series, and future games will be sequels to this one. Characters starting over is a given in the vast majority of video game sequels. Nobody really complained when they were Level 1 again in Mass Effect 2 or 3. Nobody wondered why at the beginning of Majora's Mask Link didn't have all his Ocarina of Time equipment. Honestly, I think when they try to address it things only get worse. Kingdom Hearts making Sora being weaker than before a plot point in both 2 and 3 only drew attention to that fact when I think most people would have been fine accepting it as a video game quirk.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,960
The level cap being 50 implies to me that they don't intend to fully reset everything, otherwise they'd have just let us get to 99. At the same time, they still don't know how many games this is going to be, so it wouldn't make sense to start off the second one with fully maxed out materia and a bunch of weapon skills. Yes there are levels above Firaga in some FF games, but not enough to justify continuing to max out materia for several new games.

Though I still think people are too caught up in viewing this like an episodic release of one game. The devs have made it clear it's more like a series, and future games will be sequels to this one. Characters starting over is a given in the vast majority of video game sequels. Nobody really complained when they were Level 1 again in Mass Effect 2 or 3. Nobody wondered why at the beginning of Majora's Mask Link didn't have all his Ocarina of Time equipment. Honestly, I think when they try to address it things only get worse. Kingdom Hearts making Sora being weaker than before a plot point in both 2 and 3 only drew attention to that fact when I think most people would have been fine accepting it as a video game quirk.

I did. I didn't like either of those examples. Being completely neutered and turned into a pathetic wimp at the beginning of a game after you already killed a god is just dumb.

Like I never once got to use Bahamut on anything. Unlocking that materia was completely pointless for me unless I get to keep it and use it in Part 2. Similarly, Enemy Skill was COMPLETELY POINTLESS to include in this game if they didn't intend on the player continuing to build that moveset.
 

Ashes of Dreams

Fallen Guardian of Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
15,446
I did. I didn't like either of those examples. Being completely neutered and turned into a pathetic wimp at the beginning of a game after you already killed a god is just dumb.

Like I never once got to use Bahamut on anything. Unlocking that materia was completely pointless for me unless I get to keep it and use it in Part 2. Similarly, Enemy Skill was COMPLETELY POINTLESS to include in this game if they didn't intend on the player continuing to build that moveset.

This is clearly a pet peeve of yours that you are aggressively passionate about. But the truth of the matter is that the vast majority of video game sequels require this sort of thing to work. Starting a game with a huge arsenal of fully maxed out skills and equipment from a previous game, at the level cap already, would be a terrible choice. Not only would it overwhelm people at the start of a game, it would negatively impact the feeling of progression people want from video games like this.

That being said, I do agree that they will likely have SOME things carry over. We are missing Enemy Skills, summons, and various other things (note: if this ends up three games, there's a Bahamut summon for each game). Plus, as I said, the level cap is 50. I think it's fine to start us out with some things, just not maxed out. I'd say start out at level 20, with some basic materia and the summons. If you carry over data then maybe boost the materia up to level 2. I'm interested in seeing what they do with it, but I'm sure I'll have fun either way.
 

JEH

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,387
Tifa and Aerith sell all their equipment so they can go on shopping spree with Cloud.
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
So I guess you just want them to reset the party at the beginning of Part 3 and Part 4 too? Gotta put in a bunch of pointless filler work to re-unlock Ifrit 3 more times over the course of the series?

I believe that method will provide the best gameplay experience.

I'm not against keeping progress. However, Part 1 was not designed for carrying forward progress. It was built as a complete experience with a beginning, middle and end. If Part 2 is built with the idea of carrying progress forward into Parts 3 and 4 without compromising balance or overwhelming new players than I'm all for it. However, each of those games' climaxes (except the final one) are going to be muted designing them that way.

When you start Part 2, it should feel like the beginning of a game, not a continuation of the ending of Part 1. Bombarding a new player with tons of options regarding materia and equipment is too much to ask when they haven't even grasped the gameplay fundamentals. So just handing them a full games worth of items and materia is a bad call. I mean for you, you wouldn't care and would love to start with all the options you had in Part 1. The developers however have to think of the new player that they hope to attract with each new release.

These games are expensive, so they aren't going to balance the game twice (once for new players, once for returning players with Part 1 equipment). If the developers told you that everything you did in Part 1 carried over into the next games and then didn't do it, I could totally understand why you would be bummed you spent all that time unlocking Bahamut. However, no one created that expectation except you.
 

Lucreto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,733
Start at level 50 to 100. There is no rule saying they have to start at a lower level

Materia

Easy Materia evolution

The damage of each materia is nurfed by 50%. Get the ability to merge two maxed out Firaga materia together and create Fire 2 materia which levels up to Fira 2 and Firaga 2.

It's a nod to the old materia system from the original and keeping to current naming scheme.
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
Yuffie can steal my materia, weapons and accessories but Yuffie can't steal levels and learnt weapon abilities.

She can't even button up her shorts correctly. Kyrie is going to be the scapegoat. Yuffie is going to help you get it back when you catch up to Kyrie trying to sell your stuff in a Wutai Pawn Shop.
 

Massicot

RPG Site
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,232
United States
They'll almost certainly reset it to some degree to prevent people from barreling in with piles of Maxed HP/MP/Magic/Luck up or whatever. And I don't personally feel like they need an "in-universe" explanation like Yuffie to do it. It would be cute, sure, but IDK if it would be all that meaningful.

To me, whether you start at level 5 with Fire and end up 50 with Firaga or start with Firaga and end with Firajaraga is mostly arbitrary anyway, as long as the progression is there. I assume you'll start at level 30 ish with a fixed materia deck of mid level spells to illustrate being at a stronger starting point, with a modest bonus of some sort if you import a save. I think that's more important than clutching to a 1-to-1 pure import.
 

Canucked

Comics Council 2020 & Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,444
Canada
It's going to be super embarrassing being wrecked by random enemies on the way to Kalm after defeating skyscraper-god-boss #1 of however many chapters there are.
 

Jirotrom

Member
Jan 2, 2018
394
Levels and abilities are easy, just carry them over like Kiseki does, new players who start on say 35 would be able to catch up quite easily then.

In terms of materia, apart from maybe Bad Breath you could carry most of it over no problem. Just establish that materia outside Midgar is better or some bullshit reason and add -Ja magic or do it in levels like the original. That way everyone gets to keep their stuff but it's not as effective as before. There's still so much materia we haven't seen yet or had multiple versions of that there's plenty of room to expand without having to take anything away.

Just please no stupid reset reason ala Kingdom Hearts. I don't mind there but this is totally different, it's supposed to be one story so progression should happen in accordance.
applause, also I dont think they care if you miss out on some materia from the first game, wasnt cactuar and carbuncle dlc only summons?
 

Zem

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,018
United Kingdom
And you're gonna have her do that in parts 3 and 4 too? Yuffie sucks, and having her steal your entire inventory forever would make her the worst character in the entire series.

I'm with you and I'm surprised so many people are ok with Yuffie stealing your shit and the game making you level up the materia again. What about part 3 & 4 etc?

Just balance the game around max level materia and a fixed level.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
31,038
If they don't start fresh I'd imagine they Xenosaga it: your part one level can affect your starting level and materia a bit, but you don't start at a one to one position.
This is how I see them doing it.

I would also be plenty satisfied with everyone starting over at level 7. It's a video game, it's fine. No need to have a diegetic explanation for every gameplay mechanics and systems.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,619
I'm with you and I'm surprised so many people are ok with Yuffie stealing your shit and the game making you level up the materia again. What about part 3 & 4 etc?

Just balance the game around max level materia and a fixed level.
I think it's like people who said the remake should be split based on the 3 discs. It sounds logical at face value but it's not if you examine it.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,960
This is how I see them doing it.

I would also be plenty satisfied with everyone starting over at level 7. It's a video game, it's fine. No need to have a diegetic explanation for every gameplay mechanics and systems.

The problem comes down to the fact that having players repeatedly earn all the same stuff over and over again for the next three episodes is going to waste time and necessitate a ton of filler content.

Like is anyone gonna be excited to have to unlock Shiva a THIRD time in Part 3 or a fourth time in part 4?
 

HiLife

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,351
I think it should continue progress.

I also think it should let me reslot materia during fights. I like mixing as I'm actively fighting.
 

Rats

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,148
I actively do not want any kind of transfer, I think it just ties them down to the choices they made with the first game. There should be a baseline starting point for every player, if not a totally fresh start then a curated selection of abilities. And I don't need a contrived narrative justification, I'm a big boy, I can handle it.
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
The problem comes down to the fact that having players repeatedly earn all the same stuff over and over again for the next three episodes is going to waste time and necessitate a ton of filler content.

Like is anyone gonna be excited to have to unlock Shiva a THIRD time in Part 3 or a fourth time in part 4?

Like you have this rigid idea that the way you acquire abilities in Part 2 is going to be the same as it was in Part 1. There are a million possibilities for how they could handle it.

Summons might be the rare materia that you keep from the first game.
You could get it from optional side content.
It could just be materia you find on the ground. If someone steals your stuff at the beginning of the game, you might find it as your follow the trail of the thief.

Point being, there are a thousand different ways they could approach it in the sequel. You may never see Chadley again, who knows? We can't start throwing stones at SE for locking Ifrit behind the same VR battle when we don't even know if you will acquire summons the same way.
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,619
The problem comes down to the fact that having players repeatedly earn all the same stuff over and over again for the next three episodes is going to waste time and necessitate a ton of filler content.

Like is anyone gonna be excited to have to unlock Shiva a THIRD time in Part 3 or a fourth time in part 4?
Maybe you can unlock them in dual battles, like fighting both Shiva and Ifrit together. Spice it up.
 

RiOrius

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,095
Whatever it is, I hope there's no story justification for it, like Yuffie stealing your materia or it dissolving or whatever. Power scaling has never made sense in-story, and any attempts to justify it are just contrivances trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist.

I don't need an explanation for how a bartender can, over a week's worth of training, go from barely holding her own against wild dogs to going toe-to-toe with Avatars of Fate. I don't need an explanation for why magic rocks are lying around sewers, catwalks, or just random alleyways. I don't need an explanation for why monsters in Sector 5 are tougher than monsters in Sector 7, or why the materia shop in Costa del Sol will have a better selection than Junon's.

So I don't need an explanation for whatever will change between FF7R1 and FF7R2.
 

AuthenticM

Son Altesse Sérénissime
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
31,038
The problem comes down to the fact that having players repeatedly earn all the same stuff over and over again for the next three episodes is going to waste time and necessitate a ton of filler content.

Like is anyone gonna be excited to have to unlock Shiva a THIRD time in Part 3 or a fourth time in part 4?
I think it would make sense to keep the summons, since they are unique materia and can't be spammed to win fights early on, unlike, say, having thundaga at the ready. The other materia was be reobtained just fine.
 

FantaSoda

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,992
Maybe you can unlock them in dual battles, like fighting both Shiva and Ifrit together. Spice it up.

Or it might not even be the same Shiva with the same set of abilities. As someone pointed out we were using digital versions of summons in Part 1. In the OG game, you didn't get your first summon until you were out of Midgar at the Chocobo Ranch.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,960
Maybe you can unlock them in dual battles, like fighting both Shiva and Ifrit together. Spice it up.

No thanks. Just let me keep my shit. I don't want to slog through filler re-fights of bosses I already fought in Part 1 just to get access to stuff. I don't care how you mix it up, it's still filler content.

I think it would make sense to keep the summons, since they are unique materia and can't be spammed to win fights early on, unlike, say, having thundaga at the ready. The other materia was be reobtained just fine.

Nah. I don't see any value in forcing the player to hunt down fire and aero and cure materia all over again. It's not hard to just add more mastery levels to the materia we already have and then add Firaja and Firaza down the line.
 

Carl2291

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,782
Yuffie steals our materia as we leave Kalm or while we're asleep after Cloud's storytime. Shinra captures her in Junon or at Fort Condor. Her being from Wutai and all, easy target for Heidegger to use for pro-war publicity. She loses the materia but we rescue her and she joins the party before the boat to Costa del Sol.
 

Tora

The Enlightened Wise Ones
Member
Jun 17, 2018
8,658
Hadn't really considered it and to be honest, who cares?

Just start me off however you want, it's not even like this game was that long (still damn long though) and there's a ton of grinding to be done with materias/weapons
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,139
I'm with you and I'm surprised so many people are ok with Yuffie stealing your shit and the game making you level up the materia again. What about part 3 & 4 etc?

Just balance the game around max level materia and a fixed level.
I feel if you go that route you run into a real power creep problem.
I
 

The Unsent

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,619
Yuffie steals our materia as we leave Kalm or while we're asleep after Cloud's storytime. Shinra captures her in Junon or at Fort Condor. Her being from Wutai and all, easy target for Heidegger to use for pro-war publicity. She loses the materia but we rescue her and she joins the party before the boat to Costa del Sol.
That still might be like half the game of Yuffie being weak and leading your stuff to be ruined.
 
Oct 31, 2017
14,991
Honestly idgaf just give me plenty of opportunities to fight and grind

For VIIR if you want to take story breaks to grind you have like 3 opportunities during the story (Chapter 9, 14, and 16) and with each opportunity you basically have to fight the same 5 Round fight. It's a little dull. I'd much prefer being able to run around in locations with respawnable enemies :(

it's an oddly specific issue I have but still

But for carrying over, I don't care. I'd prefer for them to maybe allow a couple of cool Materia to carry over and that's it. It's a brand new installment; treat it like one, rather than an expansion pack.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,960
Honestly idgaf just give me plenty of opportunities to fight and grind

For VIIR if you want to take story breaks to grind you have like 3 opportunities during the story (Chapter 9, 14, and 16) and with each opportunity you basically have to fight the same 5 Round fight. It's a little dull. I'd much prefer being able to run around in locations with respawnable enemies :(

it's an oddly specific issue I have but still

But for carrying over, I don't care. I'd prefer for them to maybe allow a couple of cool Materia to carry over and that's it. It's a brand new installment; treat it like one, rather than an expansion pack.

That's honestly the scary part - how are we gonna feel about being forced to level EVERY MATERIA FROM SCRATCH three more times? That's just...SO much forced grinding that could easily be avoided if they just let you keep your shit.
 
Oct 31, 2017
14,991
That's honestly the scary part - how are we gonna feel about being forced to level EVERY MATERIA FROM SCRATCH three more times? That's just...SO much forced grinding that could easily be avoided if they just let you keep your shit.

I mean, it's going to be an entirely new game! So from that alone I wouldn't consider it grinding if everything gets reset. That said, I do expect some changes to progression systems and combat that'll make it feel different from Part 1.

And maybe they'll start all magic off with -ra, or maybe not. Considering the fact that this game was pretty anti-grind I wouldn't worry about any forced grinding, really. Like another poster said there's a million ways for them to handle it so IMO it's pointless to worry about it
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,960
I mean, it's going to be an entirely new game! Maybe they'll start all magic off with -ra, or maybe not. Considering the fact that this game was pretty anti-grind I wouldn't worry about any forced grinding, really. Like another poster said there's a million ways for them to handle it so IMO it's pointless to worry about it

I dunno, I had to grind a lot to get Revival maxed out, and in order to unlock the Bahamut fight I had to spend a ton of time in the postgame battle arena doing the same battle over and over again just to get enough AP to max out the support magic materia I never use.
 

sweetmini

Member
Jun 12, 2019
3,921
Tifa and Aerith sell all their equipment so they can go on shopping spree with Cloud.

Definitely, they have to shop for a new dress for Cloud, his is too damn hot, he cannot breathe in there.

Tifa needs new boots (we've seen at home she likes boots), and Aerith a new fancy ribbon (i wish there will be a ribbon item).
 

MetatronM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,852
There's no chance levels carry over. They're not going to design a world where some players might be starting at level 30 and others at level 50. Everybody's going to start at the same advanced level, maybe 20 or 30 or something, so there's an even playing ground but it still takes into account the progress made on the journey thus far. Yuffie can easily steal all your weapons, materia, and items aside from your default weapons. Throw in a nice little bonus like extra starting gil or some other perk for having cleared save data, and you're good to go.

I think it would make sense to keep the summons, since they are unique materia and can't be spammed to win fights early on, unlike, say, having thundaga at the ready. The other materia was be reobtained just fine.
Aside from Ifrit and Choco-Mog (and maybe the DLC summons?), your summons in Part 1 are Chadley's weird bootleg versions, not the real deal. We're going to find the actual Shiva naturally in the world, and she'll probably be slightly different. I think it's more a question that the third game is going to have to answer since we're going to have already found the naturally occurring versions of most of the summons and wouldn't ordinarily come across them again.
 
Oct 31, 2017
14,991
Right, but if they're gonna do shit like the requirement for the Bahamut fight again, but with even MORE materia...

The grind's just gonna get worse and worse and worse the further in we go. And it'll be grinding shit we don't use to get spells we've already unlocked.

Well here's hoping they don't take a lazy approach lol

But yeah I'm surprised I even bothered to unlock Bahamut as I typically only wet my toes in regard to postgame content. In FF especially it's just tons of dull grinding that I don't care to do and would just rather start a new playthrough
 

dallow_bg

Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,742
texas
It's just going to be a fresh game. No need to overthink it all.
This game is YEARS away.

Think of X-2.

And for people who don't want to play the whole game again on hard mode, that effort was, as I said, pointless. You can't even get Bahamut until the last three hours of the game, and if you DO get him then you would've needed to spend HOURS grinding.
Yeah, when you don't use skills for their purpose, then I guess you can call that pointless heh.
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
118,960
Yeah, when you don't use skills for their purpose, then I guess you can call that pointless heh.

The game wasn't well-designed enough for me to want to start it over and slog through all the slow-walk and filler sections again just for the chance to maybe use some leveled up materia in combat.

Hard Mode was just kind of a mistake in my opinion, because so little of the game is actually spent fighting things. I would've much preferred Hard Mode just be boss rushes or battle arenas, not replaying the whole damn game, cutscenes and scripted sequences and all, but with annoying restrictions placed on you.
 

Belthazar90

Banned
Jun 3, 2019
4,316
I don't think there'll be any save transfer and if there is it's for minor bonuses, like kiseki games. Part 2 will probably start with your party at around lv 50 tho, with a few "mastered" materia only to learn there's more to unlock outside Midgar (whoa, there's a firaja?). They'll probably leave flare and ultima to part 3 tho
 

Ocean

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,707
There's no way a game will come out and carry leveling/item progress from another after 3-4 years and a while console generation between them.
 

MetatronM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,852
I did. I didn't like either of those examples. Being completely neutered and turned into a pathetic wimp at the beginning of a game after you already killed a god is just dumb.

Like I never once got to use Bahamut on anything. Unlocking that materia was completely pointless for me unless I get to keep it and use it in Part 2. Similarly, Enemy Skill was COMPLETELY POINTLESS to include in this game if they didn't intend on the player continuing to build that moveset.
This is literally THE reason FFVII Remake unlocks Hard mode after you beat it. So you can play stuff that will actually require you to use all those things that you built up.

The game wasn't well-designed enough for me to want to start it over and slog through all the slow-walk and filler sections again just for the chance to maybe use some leveled up materia in combat.

Hard Mode was just kind of a mistake in my opinion, because so little of the game is actually spent fighting things. I would've much preferred Hard Mode just be boss rushes or battle arenas, not replaying the whole damn game, cutscenes and scripted sequences and all, but with annoying restrictions placed on you.
You know there are also new Hard mode battle arenas in addition to playing through the rest of the game, yeah?
 

Xeno

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,899
Cloud should accidentally drop them just beyond an invisible wall or some threshold where the game forces your character to turn around while your party members berate you for trying to go that direction.
 

Perfect Chaos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,385
Charlottesville, VA, USA
On a pretty basic level, I don't see them doing any sort of save/clear carry-over because of the console generation difference. Even if it's technically feasible to access PS4 saves on PS5, I would imagine the barriers, no matter how small, that would be in place there and complicate the process would make the number of people who would use the feature relatively small. That alone would probably kill it once that's stacked up against the other design considerations that would have to be made to facilitate carrying over materia, weapons, levels, etc. BUT, who knows?

They'll almost certainly reset it to some degree to prevent people from barreling in with piles of Maxed HP/MP/Magic/Luck up or whatever. And I don't personally feel like they need an "in-universe" explanation like Yuffie to do it. It would be cute, sure, but IDK if it would be all that meaningful.

To me, whether you start at level 5 with Fire and end up 50 with Firaga or start with Firaga and end with Firajaraga is mostly arbitrary anyway, as long as the progression is there. I assume you'll start at level 30 ish with a fixed materia deck of mid level spells to illustrate being at a stronger starting point, with a modest bonus of some sort if you import a save. I think that's more important than clutching to a 1-to-1 pure import.
This is exactly what I'm expecting. I wouldn't be surprised if they start with a short-but-sweet journey to Kalm to (re)introduce the basic combat system and do some story catch-up, and then dole out the materia during a playable Nibelheim chapter, so that they can ease new players into it, while still maintaining a general sense of "Oh yeah, this is kind of what I had" for returning players. MAYBE a "Thanks for playing! Here's your Buster Sword+" if it can detect clear data from Part 1.
The problem comes down to the fact that having players repeatedly earn all the same stuff over and over again for the next three episodes is going to waste time and necessitate a ton of filler content.

Like is anyone gonna be excited to have to unlock Shiva a THIRD time in Part 3 or a fourth time in part 4?
Well, there are a bunch of ways you could approach that.

You could:
- Carry save data over that allows you to repurchase summons you had unlocked in the first game.
- Give out those sorts of major materia through story events, so everyone will acquire (or reacquire) them while on the critical path.
- Personally, I enjoy the summon (and coliseum/VR) fights, so yeah, I guess I would be excited.
- etc.

A full carry-over of ALL materia and ALL weapons is just not going to happen, and I wouldn't set yourself up for disappointment wishing otherwise. Having an expanded slate of starting materia in Part 2 compared to Part 1? Sure, I could see it. The potential player power delta they would have to design around just makes the idea of us carrying over everything we have a non-starter, I would think - outside of practical considerations (if it's even possible).
That's honestly the scary part - how are we gonna feel about being forced to level EVERY MATERIA FROM SCRATCH three more times? That's just...SO much forced grinding that could easily be avoided if they just let you keep your shit.
I guess it's just a personal thing -- I don't view it as being 'forced to level materia' at all. The encounter balance curve will be designed around assumed progression, and I'll just equip the materia I like/need and they'll level as I play through the game. Short of them holding pretty critical base-level materia back until further into the game (like Time Materia, for example), I just don't see it as an issue at all. =/