I can't help but feel like VR is a huge flop. Am I wrong?

Brodo Baggins · Nov 14, 2017

MysteryQuesadilla said:
Sure, it's a slow burn and the experience will likely improve but VR has been a long slog of tech evolution. It can't grow if it's only limited to this niche audience and I don't see it expanding greatly as it's presented now. Outside of the most hardcore gaming circles it doesn't hold a lot of appeal.

I don't think this is true. I have personally found that my non-gamer friends appreciate it more than people who are super into gaming. My 60 year old mother who has not played a video game since Tetris LOVED my Vive when she visited and played for a few hours each day. When she left she was asking me how she could get one herself, but backed off when I explained the setup and prohibitive PC cost requirement. I've had the same experience with a couple of friends who have checked out VRCades and demos, but they don't want to jump in until it becomes more affordable. There are tons of non-gamers who are interested in VR. If the price and form factor becomes more streamlined I guarantee you'd see a lot more interest in the casual market.

stingsabit said:
So the samsung VR isn't a real VR experience? I mean... I don't know anything about it and i'm certainly not that interested. But obviously there's gonna be a difference between a product that they can give out for free compared to the PSVR. I've never really given it much thought of what could be different tho. Maybe I will try it one day just do see what it's about. I don't even know how to get VR content for the samsung s8 VR whatever it's called.

I would not call the GearVR a true VR experience. Sure you get some of the visual impact, but the best part of VR is the feeling of presence, which you can only really get with fully tracked controllers imo. The only seated VR games that really do anything for me are Elite: Dangerous, and Thumper. And even these don't come close to comparing to the feeling of "presence" games like Raw Data or Audioshield give me personally.

ThaNotoriousSOD · Nov 14, 2017

I wonder about things like VR and motion control in a console setting right now. When they're optional features as opposed to the main selling point, in my mind it sort of stacks the odds against it ever reaching mass market appeal. I'm a pretty avid gamer, but even for me, $300 for a system and then another $300 for VR is just a lot to ask. Really though, looking at the costs of phones and tablets and you'd realize that $600-700 for all of that is actually a bargain.

Deleted member 23381 · Nov 14, 2017

Yeah the Technology just isn't there yet.

Maybe in another decade.

Osiris397 · Nov 14, 2017

Jonscrambler said:
I'm not calling it a flop, but you are calling it a success based on hardware revenue? "a billion dollars made" that's revenue not profit and PSVR is probably sold at very low profit margin if not near cost. games have way higher profit margins.

C'mon...2 million people didn't buy PSVR for the industrial design and to look at the headset collect dust. It's not like the useless kinect that MS crammed down the throats of the users by packing it with the console after which 90% of the users left the kinect in the box, or in a dark corner to collect dust.

Apparently the rumors are that the attach rate for PSVR is extraordinarily high...the fact that Sony got 4x-6x times the number of customers to buy in on their platform vs. two other competing platforms is staggering. If it was simply a price differential the sales disparity wouldn't be this great. (lazy arguing point too many people use as a crutch when they just basically want to bash Sony or VR in general) If interest/lack thereof was equal on both sides and the price was the only difference 1.5x-2x more Sony sales would be would be reasonable, but when you look at the fact that Vive (the highest priced headset) outsold Rift by almost a quarter of a million units the whole "cheaper product in category sells best" argument is flushed down the toilet.

Multiverse Moo · Nov 14, 2017

sc0rp.backwards said:
Far-fetched?

Yes, absolutely. There are literally tons of experimental stuff on PC and fully released games built for the ground up that only make sense to play in VR, like Super Hot VR.

Silent_but_Deadly · Nov 14, 2017

I think a large part of the perceived lack of success is that we have many people taking a "wait and see" approach. Especially from folks who went in on things like Kinect or PS Move only to find a lack of quality support for those peripherals. Sort of a catch-22.

Megatron · Nov 14, 2017

Aries Zeigald said:
What do you know? You're just a work dog...

Sony ATM seems heavily invested in it and sees potential for growth. As long as they continue to support it, I don't see it going away anytime soon.

Heavily invested, yet wont develop any AAA exclusive titles for it. Even the Vita got more support than vr is getting.

Deleted member 6949 · Nov 14, 2017

I waited for Bloodborne to come out before I bothered to get a refurbished PS4. VR is way more expensive, and there still isn't a single exclusive VR game that appealing on any of the platforms.

Osiris397 · Nov 14, 2017

Tomacco said:
To look at it a different way, by Feb 2013 Microsoft had sold 24 million Kinects which is approx. 2.4 BILLION dollars, and I think most would agree it is now firmly in the Flop category.

Before throwing out false equivalents like this you should look up how many stand alone kinects were sold...you know kinects that weren't forced down the gamers throats. PSVR isn't a pack-in console item.

Deleted member 984 · Nov 14, 2017

Megatron said:
Heavily invested, yet wont develop any AAA exclusive titles for it. Even the Vita got more support than vr is getting.

They just announced their first AAA VR game.

Jraphics Horse · Nov 14, 2017

Osiris397 said:
C'mon...2 million people didn't buy PSVR for the industrial design and to look at the headset collect dust. It's not like the useless kinect that MS crammed down the throats of the users by packing it with the console after which 90% of the users left the kinect in the box, or in a dark corner to collect dust.

You're talking about the XBone Kinect? The original 360 peripheral had a very good start, they shipped 18M in the first year.
If PS5 launches only in a forced bundle with a new VR headset, that will offer an interesting comparison to make.

Blabadon · Nov 14, 2017

Megatron said:
Heavily invested, yet wont develop any AAA exclusive titles for it. Even the Vita got more support than vr is getting.

Impatient, Farpoint?

Allseeingeye · Nov 14, 2017

Megatron said:
Heavily invested, yet wont develop any AAA exclusive titles for it. Even the Vita got more support than vr is getting.

LMao not even remotely true, there has been beteter support for PSVR than PS4's first year. A steady stream of releases.

Steel · Nov 14, 2017

Nah, it's where people expected to be. Headsets are getting better and cheaper and the hardware required to run VR is also getting cheaper. Anyone who thought things would sell tens of millions for $800 for headsets and controllers alone was fooling themselves. We're moving on from the early adoption phase as things get cheaper.

Lysistrata · Nov 14, 2017

Not a flop as such but like many new technologies it probably arrived to market too soon for more popular consumption. Prohibitive pricing and consumer understanding of what it actually does is holding it back for now. As always, production prices and the barrier to entry will fall as time goes on, but it's not there yet.
It is still needs to make a big enough splash in publc consciousness to matter in a larger sense.

Agent_ShortBus · Nov 14, 2017

There's not enough big budget games. There are a decent amount of different vr experiences though like vr videos and things like Google maps vr. I own an Oculus and used it a couple of times during the summer but it got too hot to use on the reg. Now that it's a bit cooler I just can't be bothered to hook and set everything up even though the headset is sitting in my desk.

Tomacco · Nov 14, 2017

Osiris397 said:
Before throwing out false equivalents like this you should look up how many stand alone kinects were sold...you know kinects that weren't forced down the gamers throats. PSVR isn't a pack-in console item.

You do realize that kinect wasn't a pack-in console item to start right? When they were doing that whole 10 million in 60 days Guinness World Record PR crap?

Dabi3 · Nov 14, 2017

It's a necessary flop. With some quality of life improvements and improved technology, it'll start to gain some steam.

sc0rp.backwards · Nov 14, 2017

MultiverseMob said:
Yes, absolutely. There are literally tons of experimental stuff on PC and fully released games built for the ground up that only make sense to play in VR, like Super Hot VR.

Yeah and none of them are terribly compelling or intuitive outside of their respective games

munancho · Nov 14, 2017

VR will only truly ever work when it connects directly to your brain. Free your mind, Neo!

Beef Stallmer · Nov 14, 2017

Tomacco said:
You do realize that kinect wasn't a pack-in console item to start right? When they were doing that whole 10 million in 60 days Guinness World Record PR crap?

Which world record was that? I didn't know there was a world record for channel stuffing

Osiris397 · Nov 14, 2017

Tomacco said:
You do realize that kinect wasn't a pack-in console item to start right? When they were doing that whole 10 million in 60 days Guinness World Record PR crap?

They used essentially false advertising to make the claim that it was "better than Wiimote waggle" and then started packing kinects in with 360's pretty early as I recall, the bundles had more value with packed in games and it was a lot easier to get a bundle than just console pretty early on, at least where I was.

VallenValiant · Nov 14, 2017

Agent_ShortBus said:
There's not enough big budget games.

There is not enough potential customers to spend too much to make a game. I see that as a good thing. Game development need to relearn how to make AA rather than AAA games again.

Tomacco · Nov 14, 2017

ChillSpencer said:
Which world record was that? I didn't know there was a world record for channel stuffing

Wait.... you saying it's your belief that in those 60 days all 10 million were sitting on store shelves?

Osiris397 said:
They used essentially false advertising to make the claim that it was "better than Wiimote waggle" and then started packing kinects in with 360's pretty early as I recall, the bundles had more value with packed in games and it was a lot easier to get a bundle than just console pretty early on, at least where I was.

oh don't get me wrong, I was really disappointed with the kinect (and the second one), my only point was that the 1 million+ sales for PSVR doesn't really protect it from becoming flopping going forward

Tankard · Nov 14, 2017

Price is king. These are not mass appeal prices.

riverfr0zen · Nov 14, 2017

Flop for whom, in whose eyes?

For Sony, who was pretty conservative, seemingly, from their manufacturing and marketing expenditures? For them, it seems to have seen as much as or more demand than expected, and they seem to have a plan on how to stage development of it.

Even Oculus or HTC, we don't really know what their expectations were.

If sales are sufficient for the companies to approve continued development of the platform, I would say it's not really a flop, despite consumer impressions.

Tomacco said:
...my only point was that the 1 million+ sales for PSVR doesn't really protect it from becoming flopping going forward

No, but what it does is provide information about demand to the company and helps them plan pacing of future development. So it may not protect, but it encourages some further development, which in my book is a 'non-flop' (so far).

Beef Stallmer · Nov 14, 2017

Tomacco said:
Wait.... you saying it's your belief that in those 60 days all 10 million were sitting on store shelves?

oh don't get me wrong, I was really disappointed with the kinect (and the second one), my only point was that the 1 million+ sales for PSVR doesn't really protect it from becoming flopping going forward

It could be true, but then it would have a really low attach rate..
10 million individual units sold in 2 months is great, especially against, what, 40 million Xboxes at the time?
I will google more concrete info.

PSVR would be a flop in that only 1 million out of 35 or something million PS4 owners bought it

Multiverse Moo · Nov 14, 2017

sc0rp.backwards said:
Yeah and none of them are terribly compelling or intuitive outside of their respective games

Alright, I won't engage you anymore if all you're doing is moving goal posts with regards to what VR already offers. You claimed one thing, but it was pointed out that is incorrect or even far-fetched that there aren't games made specifically for VR.

There are also definitely compelling titles but that doesn't mean they have to all be your cup of tea. Me, personally - I've found several titles and experiences that have been amazing in virtual reality. Some as far back as 15 years ago, but a LOT of them this year alone (Farpoint, RE7, Super Hot, Solus Project, Until Dawn: RoB)

MikeProtagonist · Nov 14, 2017

sc0rp.backwards said:
Far-fetched?

Maybe the wrong word. What I mean is that there is already stuff that shows that it's completely possible to adapt existing games or make new games that do what you're asking for. From what you're saying it sounds like a really difficult task.

Xeontech · Nov 14, 2017

Nope. It's far from a flop. You're just missing the boat.

When it's more mainstream in a couple years a lot of people will pretend they always knew it would be huge success lol.

Braaier · Nov 14, 2017

Allseeingeye said:
LOL sure, whatever makes you sleep at night, but it isn't at all. A disaster? Now with hyperbole. Screen door effects? You don't even notice it...locomotion is not really a big issue, games have already solved that issue. It's not remain a flop because it never was one, it is where they expected it to be currently.

This.

So it is still a flop. It was a fad and hasn't taken off. It can still take off but all of the limitations make it a dud currently.

Edit - oh damn you're banned AGAIN! makes it hard to carry on s conversation with you.

GNEVERD · Nov 14, 2017

I don't think vr will be feasible to the average consumer, until it incorporates quantum computing into the coding aspect. A holodeck or ar solution is the most digestible form for the masses.

Kaji AF16 · Nov 14, 2017

Played in VR for the first time two days ago: Project Cars 2 on a high-end (moving cockpit, HTC Vive) setup. Interesting tech demo, but a far cry from the quality of more conventional racing simulations. I would argue that we are still a few generations away from VR becoming a mainstream, widely convincing platform.

Multiverse Moo · Nov 14, 2017

GNEVERD said:
I don't think vr will be feasible to the average consumer, until it incorporates quantum computing into the coding aspect. A holodeck or ar solution is the most digestible form for the masses.

Whether or not we get that kind of processing power isn't really all that important, but you're onto something about the format.

VR as a product is not meant for the masses. At least, not the kind we associate with typical consumer electronics in the form of consoles and handhelds. It is absolutely a niche product and as consumer level VR, this is the market which Sony, HTC, and Facebook are after while the technology progresses until it reaches a point that further mindshare and easy-to-try or easy-to-buy becomes a reality.

That is why many are rightfully saying it is not a flop. It's also been around for decades, in a variety of formats, and there are far more HMDs and proprietary VR systems than most people on here seem to be aware of. See: The Void, military applications, medial industry, etc.

cakefoo · Nov 14, 2017

Kaji AF16 said:
Played in VR for the first time two days ago: Project Cars 2 on a high-end (moving cockpit, HTC Vive) setup. Interesting tech demo, but a far cry from the quality of more conventional racing simulations. I would argue that we are still a few generations away from VR becoming a mainstream, widely convincing platform.

I'm curious what specifically did it lack compared to non-VR setups?

GNEVERD · Nov 14, 2017

MultiverseMob said:
Whether or not we get that kind of processing power isn't really all that important, but you're onto something about the format.

VR as a product is not meant for the masses. At least, not the kind we associate with typical consumer electronics in the form of consoles and handhelds. It is absolutely a niche product and as consumer level VR, this is the market which Sony, HTC, and Facebook are after while the technology progresses until it reaches a point that further mindshare and easy-to-try or easy-to-buy becomes a reality.

That is why many are rightfully saying it is not a flop. It's also been around for decades, in a variety of formats, and there are far more HMDs and proprietary VR systems than most people on here seem to be aware of. See: The Void, military applications, medial industry, etc.

I see where you're coming from, but I feel the path we're on and the road traveled thus far isn't going to get us to the proverbial vr promise land.

Those industries you've cited are investing heavily into quantum computing, because the pigeon holds of the tech's current limitations will be as simple as 1+1.

Imagine if things like latency and buffering do not exist, whatsoever. Then, think of things like visual projections merging into solid forms in an instance.

For example, you use your quantum vr machine to scan an old photo of a deceased loved one. The qvr machine instantly and accurately projects real world dimensions of...let's say your beloved grandmother.

You now have the "create a character" option much like how rpg's of today begin. You set her disposition, demeanor, voice, etc. Viola! Grandma in the virtual flesh. (No physical hardware to wear)

Now you can have grandma cheerlead for you in a idk...black ops 2030 match, or nag you about gaming so much. Whatever you decide.

The gaming vr industry has a strong focus on mimicking real world experiences, and I believe the current computing limitations will never create a desirable alternative reality for most people. It's difficult keeping us niche consumers enthused. I've been waiting since the Lawn Mowerman movie lol.

Multiverse Moo · Nov 14, 2017

GNEVERD said:
(snip)
The gaming vr industry has a strong focus on mimicking real world experiences, and I believe the current computing limitations will never create a desirable alternative reality for most people. It's difficult keeping us niche consumers enthused. I've been waiting since the Lawn Mowerman movie lol.

I only side-stepped the question of processing power because even with superposition and entanglement giving us a massive edge in performance, it will still come down to making the software that can run such things. When AI automation is sufficient enough (and we haven't completely run out of resources) we will very much at a point where we are leaving VR behind as kid's toys - ie. when all of us are much older, or gone.

However, that quantum leap coupled with matured technology such as creating physical boundaries using sound waves and such will be suitable for actual holodecks to emerge. Those will undoubtedly be massively successful for a lot of different things, ultimately leading to situations we've seen in sci-fi movies for decades where some poor schmuck is left to clean up after each client has had their fill of the room (obviously this would be automated as well, but... still, eugh).

In the meantime, we're making pretty decent strides in performance gains with existing technology paradigms, with wireless VR in the immediate future, along wih various solutions to solve depth-of-focus, eye-tracking, digit-tracking, etc. all while slowly reducing the manufacturing costs of these devices little by little.

GNEVERD · Nov 15, 2017

MultiverseMob said:
I only side-stepped the question of processing power because even with superposition and entanglement giving us a massive edge in performance, it will still come down to making the software that can run such things. When AI automation is sufficient enough (and we haven't completely run out of resources) we will very much at a point where we are leaving VR behind as kid's toys - ie. when all of us are much older, or gone.

However, that quantum leap coupled with matured technology such as creating physical boundaries using sound waves and such will be suitable for actual holodecks to emerge. Those will undoubtedly be massively successful for a lot of different things, ultimately leading to situations we've seen in sci-fi movies for decades where some poor schmuck is left to clean up after each client has had their fill of the room (obviously this would be automated as well, but... still, eugh).

In the meantime, we're making pretty decent strides in performance gains with existing technology paradigms, with wireless VR in the immediate future, along wih various solutions to solve depth-of-focus, eye-tracking, digit-tracking, etc. all while slowly reducing the manufacturing costs of these devices little by little.

Haha, agreed. The gains aren't anything to score at; we've come a long way.

Godzilla24 · Feb 21, 2018

Any changes in your thoughts about the state of VR?

bigbluefrontend · Feb 21, 2018

Halation Ablation said:
Yeah the Technology just isn't there yet.

Maybe in another decade.

Bingo. The technology isn't there. If there was an actual interface where controls basically mapped 1:1 to your movement and hardware was fast enough to do something like this, it would be the next big thing.

It just isn't there yet, though. As soon as it's good enough and becomes mainstream, Blizzard will swoop in as usual and make the first polished game that explodes and becomes a phenomenon, probably.

Deleted member 2620 · Feb 21, 2018

Crusadernm said:
Any changes in your thoughts about the state of VR?

It "started" extremely good and keeps getting better, so not much has changed here.

Chaosblade · Feb 21, 2018

Crusadernm said:
Any changes in your thoughts about the state of VR?

I think VR has only taken the first steps on a very long road, so no, my opinion hasn't really changed at all in 4 months.

Still Intellivision-tier.

mariodk18 · Feb 21, 2018

The devices limit the market. Too expensive, not enough must have games, lots of set up, danger of self harm, and it being a closed off experience all hinder its success.

Deleted member 6730 · Feb 21, 2018

I wouldn't call it a flop. It certainly hasn't kept anybody from giving up on it both within the development community and its fandom. At the same time there's still a lack of big releases, none of the major devs have released anything with the marketing and budget of a major release and it feels like we should be at that point by now. I'm not sure if it has any room to grow at this point. If it doesn't catch on within a year it won't catch on at all.

Issen · Feb 21, 2018

I found VR on PC to be a huge fucking hassle nobody but the most dedicated tinkerers would put up with.

On PSVR, because of how the device is designed (and perhaps due to Sony guidelines, I dunno) every single game supports a seated, front facing set-up which requires minimal space. Also, the actual hardware set-up is much simpler than anywhere else: Place the camera, plug in the headset and stuff just works. There's no tinkering with performance (something that must be re-learned on the PC side due to VR gaming having different bottlenecks and performance requirements to normal gaming).

Also, when something goes wrong with PCVR there's a good chance that you'll need to remove the headset and put it back on several times while you experiment with fixes and hacks. The fact that it's harder to put on and adjust the headstrap-based PCVR headsets when compared to the PSVR crown is another negative factor in this process. I also noticed that PCVR headsets don't accomodate glasses as easily, and tend to fog up the lenses because of how hot it gets in there.

PCVR is just not worth it IMO at the moment, at least going by my experience with Rift and Windows Mixed Reality. PSVR on the other hand is something I've loved from day 1 and continue to love to this day. PSVR may have the worst resolution and tracking quality but do not underestimate the gigantic gap in convenience (and price!)

boris_feinbrand · Feb 21, 2018

I basically hate every current VR Headset as they are clumsy unwieldy and uncomfortable. All of them to different degrees.

But I see them for what they are. The first generation of a promising tech that needs a lot more work to even begin hoping for any kind of mainstream appeal. There is no killer app that can turn the current boxes into huge sellers. But i consider it wrong to measure the current crop of VR devices by traditional platform sales. They are a test run that is being tested on tech enthusiasts and rich people.

Ultimately it will come down to ergonomics and intuitive interfaces both in terms of hardware and software.

HDMF76 · Feb 21, 2018

You arent wrong if thats how you feel.

After playing RE7 and Skyrim in VR I cant agree with you though, those are spectacular.

Multiverse Moo · Feb 21, 2018

Crusadernm said:
Any changes in your thoughts about the state of VR?

Deleted member 2254 · Feb 21, 2018

It's funny how things go. The aforementioned Kinect sold more in its first 25 days than PSVR in its lifetime, but Kinect is considered a colossal flop, PSVR is the future. Until VR will be showcased at events with glorified versions of Space Invaders and teleport-based movement systems, most people won't invest crazy amounts of money, and the few VR exclusive triple-As are so damn short (or repetitive) that it's not worth the price of a new console for most. VR may eventually become big and be, in fact, the next big thing, but as it stands it's not as big as people want to believe. A year or so ago people thought the VR would have kinda blown up by now, and yet we're always at the "give it another year or two, the tech is almost there" phase. It's not with years-old games getting VR modes that the technology will suddenly become interesting to everyone.

Penny Royal · Feb 21, 2018

mariodk18 said:
The devices limit the market. Too expensive, not enough must have games, lots of set up, danger of self harm, and it being a closed off experience all hinder its success.

$200 is too expensive for a PSVR?

The rest of your post is a lazy litany of issue that millions of VR HMD owners dispel every day.

I can't help but feel like VR is a huge flop. Am I wrong?

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