Meh. Also Rogue One put me off other spinoffs and I've been very busy this past couple months. Solo was the first one in my lifetime I didn't see in theatres (wasn't alive for the OT)
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I just Watched The Last Jedi, why was it controversial??
- Thread starter konka
- Start date
That thread is here:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/the-last-jedi-the-gentle-wo-mans-discussion-thread.51005/
I find it bizarre that new threads keep popping up with the same arguments. Why not just bump that thread? As MagicHobo pointed out, my posts here are simply copy/pasted from that thread. We've already been through these arguments, like 20 times. No sense re-authoring them
That thread went better than most of the other threads have. Part of the reason it's better is that the OP explicitly forbids calling people misogynist/sexist. For people who genuinely dislike the script for this film, setting some parameters definitely helped ensure discussion focuses on what's in the movie
case in point...
That thread also contains a poll, which has had Era ratings of the movie at about 56% for awhile now. This should show that opinions on the movie are indeed split. I could be wrong, but review bombing the poll would require someone to register a bunch of dummy accounts, which I gather would be stopped by the mods (for better reasons than because of a poll)
And this is a video game forum. We are nerds by default. Plus, this is a notoriously liberal forum. Imagine what those numbers would look like at "the old place", or gamefaqs, or god forbid 4chan. This forum likely represents some of Disney's top target audience, just below dedicated Star Wars forums. So yeah, Rotten Tomatoes User Score was manipulated a bit, but based on scores around the net, including here, its easy to see that it might not have been affected too much.
Opinions on TLJ are definitely and rightfully contentious
I'm guessing due to a lot of people having huge expectations (at least I did before the movie's release). I particularly remember being really hyped to learn more about Rey's parents and Snoke's origin. You could say I was kind of disappointed after I left the theater. Haven't had huge expectations for upcoming movies ever since, and I think it's working pretty well. I did rewatch TLJ back in March with my expectations in check, and happened to enjoy it way more than I did in the theater.
Btw, did all this TLJ controversy reignite due to Solo's release? I remember seeing lots of controversy a bit after TLJ released, but it all seemed to have quiet down for a few months until I saw recent reports (about a month or so ago iirc) of people harassing Kelly Marie Tran on Instagram, fans willing to remake TLJ, etc.
Btw, did all this TLJ controversy reignite due to Solo's release? I remember seeing lots of controversy a bit after TLJ released, but it all seemed to have quiet down for a few months until I saw recent reports (about a month or so ago iirc) of people harassing Kelly Marie Tran on Instagram, fans willing to remake TLJ, etc.
I'm not much of a Star Wars fan and I watched it a 2nd time at a friend's recently. It's just kind of boring to me. I didnt really feel invested in anything that was happening. I kind of wish the movie ended with Rae joining Kilo and making a new faction, just to give something exciting and new to look forward to. They spend a lot of time in the movie knocking down all of the Star Wars norms but by the end of it it seemed everything was reset back how it was anyway. Seemed like they got spooked and rewrote the ending as to not rock the boat too much.
I'm guessing TLJ going up on Netflix played a big part, a lot of people are seeing it for the first time as a result
But they don't count because reasons. Or " METACRITIC?, YOU'RE USING THAT TO BASE YOU'RE ARGUMENT"? If it's not one thing it's another. I'm not going to say that TLJ is a crap movie, it's well made. But it did not doa great job with story, nor did it leave anything that was satisfying in a meaningful way.
Pretty much sums it up for me. Although I thought the throne room fight scene was epic.
The expectations for this movie were also damn high i think. I remember the critics and media claiming its the best star wars movie and having that out there when its not even as good as force awakens is laughable.
Agreed, I don't even hate it that much. I'd rank it just under TFA, and I will concede that a lot of that ranking comes down to personal opinion. I just love the chemistry between Finn/Rey and Finn/Poe in TFA. It makes the movie for me
But seeing people stan for TLJ constantly as if it's some flawless magnum opus really makes me like it less. I will admit, I enjoyed it more on my re-watch, but I had trouble getting the stupid forum banter about it out of my head the whole time. And I still think it's got plenty of problems. I can't understand how you could fault all the folks who didn't like it. Legitimate criticisms abound. The way it twists away from TFA alone is enough to obviously ruffle some feathers of legitimate fans
Oh yeah Snoke was nobody, hahaaa take subversion of your expectations
You just opened the fucking door for Emperor 3.0 and 4.0 and 5.0 to walk out of the shadows all like "hmmm yes I was here the whole time" because you rolled over for a Snoke character with no explanation.
Also whats going on with the galaxy? The first order got their ass kicked in TFA but now they control...everything? what? Is there anyone involved in making this trilogy remotely coherent? Will everything just get ret conned in the opening crawl of the next film...? Sure fucking feels like it could happen.
Baffling that shit happened and yet Disney then made a miracle like Infinity War.
You just opened the fucking door for Emperor 3.0 and 4.0 and 5.0 to walk out of the shadows all like "hmmm yes I was here the whole time" because you rolled over for a Snoke character with no explanation.
Also whats going on with the galaxy? The first order got their ass kicked in TFA but now they control...everything? what? Is there anyone involved in making this trilogy remotely coherent? Will everything just get ret conned in the opening crawl of the next film...? Sure fucking feels like it could happen.
Baffling that shit happened and yet Disney then made a miracle like Infinity War.
I don't know if controversial is the right word, just divisive. Some people seemed to love it, and some people thought it was a steaming pile of garbage. Just like with some of the DC films; it ignites a fierce debate from both camps.
I think regardless of this dichotomy though I guess the controversial part is just how different it felt from it's predecessor, TFA. Seems like those rumors that lucasfilm had no clue where they wanted to go with the new trilogy and were just winging it and making stuff hoping they can tie things up neatly later on are true. Felt very disconnected/disjointed from 7 and that's one of my biggest gripes with the new films -- we'll see if 9 can bring it all together but I'm not hopeful.
If they plan on making future trilogies, they need more cohesiveness from film to film and a guiding vision from day 1.
I think regardless of this dichotomy though I guess the controversial part is just how different it felt from it's predecessor, TFA. Seems like those rumors that lucasfilm had no clue where they wanted to go with the new trilogy and were just winging it and making stuff hoping they can tie things up neatly later on are true. Felt very disconnected/disjointed from 7 and that's one of my biggest gripes with the new films -- we'll see if 9 can bring it all together but I'm not hopeful.
If they plan on making future trilogies, they need more cohesiveness from film to film and a guiding vision from day 1.
mmmmmmmmmm
in what moment the movie says that Snoke was a nobody?????
he still build the first order from the ashes of the empire and it was about to conquer the galaxy?
how the fuck is he a nobody? just because he wasnt plagueis?
They literally said that Snoke was an original character BEFORE TFA came out, Snoke isn't the main villain of the series, this man this:
And yes it's highly likely other dark side users in the galaxy at this time. Just like there were during the Clone Wars and Rebellion, or how jedi not named Luke Skywalker existed during the rebellion. It's a a galaxy and they've barely explored the outer rim which is full of lovecraftian shit:
Yeah there's just some weird stuff going on, I don't hate it either but I definitely was let down by it.
People couldn't handle kino when the series is mostly compromised of Marvel-tier popcorn flicks.
I really enjoyed TLJ and Solo. I go in expecting nothing and I've yet to be disappointed. My expectations are building for IX though.
DC films are a different kind of divisive. Outside of Wonder Woman they were all critically panned. So it's a debate between those who think its fun garbage and those who think it's bad garbage. We've seen lots of films like that throughout time. You like Transformers, I hate Transformers... etc.
TLJ level of divisiveness is something else entirely. It's a critically acclaimed film that many fans adore and rank just below or even above decades-old classics... but something about it drives the other half of fans away in disgust. I think there are many college level essays to be written about how and why people look at it so completely differently. Whoever said it was #TheDress of films is right.
Thank you OP. The movie was actually quite good with some really strong development.
I too am baffled, yet more disappointed that people can't see the themes and messages the movie gave.
my main issue with TLJ (and I on the "kinda like" side of things) is that the editing is pretty bad, I got tired of watching the resistance just run away (with the repeated shots of the star destroyer shooting at the ship) and the canto bight B-Plot deserved more time. The climax of the movie, the overall theme of failure, and moving on from the past are great. Certainly doesn't deserve all this ire that it gets.
Not to mention...:
that sassy face ben lol
heard you talking shit!
If he was plagueisusous I would cringe. Snokes a nobody because theres no explanation where he comes from or anything, thats what I meant.
Snokes an original character...? Ok? Where did he come from? Whats his motivations? Just a generic bad guy Palpatine 2.0? Riveting.They literally said that Snoke was an original character BEFORE TFA came out, Snoke isn't the main villain of the series, this man this:
And yes there are likely other dark side users in the galaxy at this time. Just like there were during the Clone Wars and Rebellion. It's a a galaxy.
Are you talking about Clone Wars and Rebels? Are those still canon? I thought they weren't. How am I supposed to know theres more dark side users all over the galaxy. No Star Wars film has ever indicated that except for
Solo and even then its technically doesn't apply, don't want to be too specific in case you havent seen it
Yes, it's absolutely about the empowerment of women. Everyone just hated Aliens and Terminator for exactly that reason.
Maybe, just maybe, it's because the movie actually sucked? No, that can't be it. All who hate it must be misogynist basement dwellers.
the movie not talking about his backstory doesnt make him a nobody
he still was supreme leader of the first order
Everything felt shafted into a ziplock bag. The movie tried to do far too much instead of its own thing. Maybe they could have been broken up into a more focused story. Instead I just felt like a lot of nonsense that I didn't really care about happening on a screen. Happy to see minorities get love. It makes the transition to world rule that much easier.
All of the nerdballs are just sexist/racist it seems. No one is like "man this story just plain sucked and was boring as fuck. Wow. A force hologram..." it all seems to fall near those sad gamer gate lines.
Which is why r1 is the best thing to come of this new wave of star wars bullshit. I feel like it was what star trek beyond, or whatever the new reboot was. Even though it was a prequel, it highlighted the universe, gave us a few well developed story lines to follow, and some great action/and performances.
I'll die happy knowing rogue one happened.
OP
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Maybe we'll get a three movie prequel borefest about how he was a senate page on a backwater planet and was inspired by the rise of palpatine...
I think people forget that the Emperor had no official backstory either for 22 years of the franchise's history. His character worked in the OT because he's mysterious and we have no idea who the F he is.
The last time I mentioned that though someone said it was totally different because this is a sequel trilogy....... *shrugs*
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This exactly.
Not liking the film is fine.
Defending the assholes because you personally did not like the film is not.
The fandom has been hijacked by toxic shitfuckery.
Sorry if you don't like the pushback.
Yes. He's not Darth Plagueis, a clone of Anakin Skywalker, or some other inane thing, he's just Snoke.
The outer rim. Information that isn't important or asked in either film.
To kill Luke Skywalker and he resistance, thus wiping out all hope in the galaxy.
Clone Wars and Rebels are canon. They've even referenced them in the films.
Because it's a galaxy and the list of force sensitives doesn't stop at Rey and Kylo.
We don't forget this... Just posting one of my old answers. Since you frequent these threads, I'm sure you know what will be said...
The emperor doesn't need to be fully fleshed out in the original trilogy. He only pops up in episode 5 so we know Vader has a master, since the audience might believe Vader is in charge of the Empire otherwise. This is important because they are setting up Vader's redemption, and Vader needs a bigger enemy for such to happen. In ROTJ the emperor serves as a common enemy for father and son, to turn Vader to the light side. Who he is or how he came to power isn't important, because the backdrop of the movies have been that a powerful evil empire controls the galaxy since the first movie we've seen. There's nothing about the emperor we need explained, because his existence lines up with everything we understand about the story up to that point
What people seem to be missing about the need for more info on Snoke is that this is not about fanboys wanting to know what color Snoke's lightsaber is or anything like that. It's more about people trying to understand how these movies connect to the ones we grew up with. In the end of Return of Jedi, it's clear that the Empire has been decimated. There's no indication that another big bad is around the corner. We are made to believe the mainstay of the imperial fleet is destroyed alongside the 2nd deathstar. These ideas are reinforced by the special edition (Coruscant celebration) and the prequels (rule of 2)
People want to know why the hell this guy was just sitting on his ass through Jedi, and how he was able to build up a first order and starkillerbase in 30 years that far outpowers the victors of the previous war. They want to know how Luke, who saw the good in his evil father, would turn on his nephew at the drop of a vision. Snoke is implicated in all of this, then thrown away for a cheap subversion. The people who wanted him fleshed out aren't looking for his bio. They are looking for consistency in the stories. The reality is that Disney wanted to reset everything so they could tell another story about a scrappy band of underdogs standing up to an evil authority. Snoke was never a character, he was an excuse, and ultimately lazy writing. TFA was forgiven for not explaining Snoke or the rise of the First Order simply because eveyone assumed this info would be fleshed out in the next film, a safe assumption considering the flashbacks and mysteries highlighted in TFA. Tossing out Snoke indicates that there's going to be no attempt to explain why nothing has changed in this universe since ANH. We are still confused how our heroes actually lost at the end of ROTJ. Snoke was the only indication we'd get an explanation. Without him, the only answer to "Why is there still an Empire?" is that Disney wanted to make more of the same movie. If TFA were the first movie, like ANH, Snoke would be far less important. We could simply be told he's the dude in charge of all the bad guys, and we wouldn't blink
"This movie sucks and is about empowered women"
Guess they missed the part where Leia failed, what's his name organized a successful coup against what's her name, what's her name didn't have a great plan that ultimately failed and cost her everything, and Rose May have done something that cost her everything and got possibly nothing in return.
"Empowered!"
Guess by empowered they mean that the woman isn't a princess in distress. But even then the first trilogy has Leia being a smart ass and able to hold her own in a fire fight. And she did was Han couldn't, she took out Jabba.
Part of the success and turning of tropes on their head in ANH was Leia grabbing a blaster and taking charge during the prison break. She was on the front at Hoth!
Women have always been empowered in Star Wars. The only woman who really sat on her butt was Padme (iirc) and those were just bad movies in general.
Guess they missed the part where Leia failed, what's his name organized a successful coup against what's her name, what's her name didn't have a great plan that ultimately failed and cost her everything, and Rose May have done something that cost her everything and got possibly nothing in return.
"Empowered!"
Guess by empowered they mean that the woman isn't a princess in distress. But even then the first trilogy has Leia being a smart ass and able to hold her own in a fire fight. And she did was Han couldn't, she took out Jabba.
Part of the success and turning of tropes on their head in ANH was Leia grabbing a blaster and taking charge during the prison break. She was on the front at Hoth!
Women have always been empowered in Star Wars. The only woman who really sat on her butt was Padme (iirc) and those were just bad movies in general.
I still hope 9 starts with the FO being finished off cause Kylo and Hux are idiots and needed daddy Snoke to hold their hands. Get rid of the FO like Dooku in EP 3.
Vader's redemption was SOLELY brought up in ROTJ, that was not part of the plan until that film was being written, and it went through several changes until they arrived at the final version of ROTJ.
The characters are all concerned about Kylo, not Snoke, Snoke isn't what's important, Kylo is. He's the one with the blood relation to the original trio, he's the one on the front lines, he's the one who's conflicted and further pushing himself down a darker path every chance he gets a shot at redemption. Kylo's the main villain. Snoke is the leader of the first order, and that's what matters as far as teh characters are concerned.
Literally the reason Holdo's plan failed is directly due to the actions of the guy who comes back to the bridge every few hours to mansplain about why HE needs to be in on the plan despite his earlier actions leading to his demotion. It was literally working until Poe's plan failed, and even then, she was able to rectify that for a moment by launching herself into the ship in an act of desperation that allowed them to get down to Crait.
OP
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i mean, come on, at one point, luke was supposed to go dark side right?
That said, it would be nice to know what happened in those 30 years. How Snoke obtained power and rebuilt the Empire in a small time frame.
Exactly.
Then read the books about the creation of the first order, because that's all background fluff that doesn't matter in the grand scheme of the film's story and themes.
It's almost as if you completely ignored the whole first paragraph.
Quoting because I think one person saw it. Maybe others saw what I saw. Or would if they saw it again. IDK.
Also, thanks for continuing to fight the good fight Crossing Eden
Nah. Good films can rationalize and justify their setting and environment on their own.
All of Poe's actions lead to the ultimate destruction of the fleet.
He persists with the attack on the Dreadnaught against orders, causing huge loss of life and materiel.
He then states a coup, and aids Finn & Rose on a mission that ultimately leads to TFO being able to penetrate the cloaking on the shuttles, giving them easy targets.
If he hadn't done anything except follow orders - which as a soldier he should be doing - most if not all the rebels evacuated from the main ship would have survived.
People had their own vision for what the movie should have been, and instead of appreciating the movie for what it was they clinched their fists over what it wasn't. Also, some people are just not able to disagree on something without being pieces of shit, apparently.
another point i dont like about the people hating on the film, they love to talk about how Luke tried to kill his nephew like he abandoned them all like he did willingly, i mean if you can see the shame and regref on Hamill's performance, i dont know what say to you. from the moment Luke appears on screen you always see him like he gave up, like he has nothing to live for, and he knows that and he is ashamed of himself
Hamill came and gave the performance of his life and people dont fucking appreciate it.
he tried to kill his nephew yada yada yadaa not my luke lolololol
Hamill came and gave the performance of his life and people dont fucking appreciate it.
he tried to kill his nephew yada yada yadaa not my luke lolololol
We know Snoke's motivation, we know he's the leader of the First Order as well as the one who turned Ben Solo into Kylo Ren, and we're well aware of the fact that his entire motivation was about snuffing out Luke Skywalker so that there would be no chance for the jedi to rise again. Tell me again, how does ROTJ justify the fact that Luke built a lightsaber, where'd he get the crystal?
Because it retcons TFA and also turns TFAs questions into nothing. Also some characters are idiots for no reason. Also Finn and Rose mission waste of time and adds nothing to movie. Also bad comedy attempts.
There's not a single plot point in TLJ that retcons the events and/or characters of TFA.
We know Snoke's motivation, we know he's the leader of the First Order as well as the one who turned Ben Solo into Kylo Ren, and we're well aware of the fact that his entire motivation was about snuffing out Luke Skywalker so that there would be no chance for the jedi to rise again. Tell me again, how does ROTJ justify the fact that Luke built a lightsaber, where'd he get the crystal?
What is a Yoda and ObiWan ghost?
I FUCKING LOVE THIS
i mean you are telling me we can assume that obi or yoda thaught luke
but god forbids we assume something TLJ didnt explicitly said
loool