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Godsfather

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Jul 14, 2019
227
As a business owner in Baton Rouge im not worried about something happening to my store. Things got crazy in the area during an Alton Sterling protest and I was in a peaceful march with some friends. Saw it turn ugly quickly, with cops using excessive forces against kids, this march was youth organized after all. Point I'm making is, if somehow my store took some collateral damage, my support is with my community cause in the end I wouldn't be in business without them. Burn it all down, black lives matter
 
Oct 27, 2017
10,660
the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season."

Every part of that applies.
I think of this quote every time some dickhead gets mad about protests blocking roads or being inconvenienced.
 

Scuffed

Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,376
I hope that cop will get sentenced for murder. But the looting and pillaging doesn't help the cause. They're two different cases. There's justice and then there's lynching (and the cop did something similar to lynching).

Eventually the looters and pillagers will be sentenced for their crimes as well. Does that help anyone?

I'm not interested in what you are saying now tbh. Say it when it happened and I might listen but saying now, for the first time, in this thread feels disingenuous at best. In future I hope people like you show the same fervor and concern you show in this thread the next time there is a thread on another black person being publicly executed by a cop.
 

Deleted member 60295

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Sep 28, 2019
1,489
That said I couldn't give less of a shit about people going through targets or whatever.

From what it sounds like, that was pretty much all that was happening, until the white boys started busing in from out of state en-masse just so they could take advantage of the situation. All the video clips I'm seeing online seem to overwhelmingly show most of the black protesters trying to DEFEND locally-owned joints from white people that showed up out of nowhere.

I wish I was surprised about this, but I'm not. These fuckers are so well organized thanks to the internet. Every time shit's going down, they always rush in and try to cause as much chaos as possible and completely undermine the original intent of the protests. Cause they know they've got the powers that be on their side. And they're more emboldened than ever, thanks to Agent Orange.
 

Deleted member 52442

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Jan 24, 2019
10,774
That's why I like MLK's take the best, since he doesn't say looting is done consciously as a symbolic act, but actually does describe it as a visceral act, which he adds context to explain. He straight up calls it a phenomenon, as in it's a natural/instinctual response to specific stimuli.


Didn't know he said that but it makes perfect sense to me
 

Lumination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,828
In short, I believe a system where radical change only occurs because misfortune has spread to enough innocents that people start caring is a broken system.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,922
Finland
I generally don't care that much. The recent threats from the president were much more vile than the looting going on, so is police brutality that's been going on for far too long. If this will push a change, it's been worth it.
This is my relative. Fuck this clown and fuck those who defended him! What did he do to deserve this?

Video

For me, there is a huge difference between looting and breaking a few windows versus burning down a building and taking livelihoods with it, particularly small business. I also fail to see how burning down buildings like the Migizi Communications building, losing irreplaceable Native American archives, photos and historic materials in the process, supports the cause.



You want to make a mark, burn down the police precincts, burn down government buildings. Hell, burn down the news outlets who care more about their ratings than they do black lives, while profiting off of their misery.

All that is being accomplished right now is assuring that large corporations like Target, Walmart, Wendy's, Arby's, etc. will come back to even less competition as small business will be unable to reopen, while the rich CEOs/owners continue to become richer.


But this is still sad to see. I wish the rioting could be more targeted, less about just breaking and burning random things all around. You don't need to break every window to get into the store and get you a new TV either. Also don't cause a ruckus in a place where people are protesting peacefully, I saw clip like that here. Get your ass somewhere else to break stuff. Respect those who don't want to be a part of escalation.
 
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TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,611
But this is still sad to see. I wish the rioting could be more targeted, less about just breaking and burning random things all around. You don't need to break every window to get into the store and get you a new TV either. Also don't cause a ruckus in a place where people are protesting peacefully, I saw clip like that here. Get your ass somewhere else to break stuff. Respect those who don't want to be a part of escalation.
It's complicated.

If you avoid all minority owned businesses, that means you're going to be in the suburbs, where dense movement is limited and there's nothing but smatterings of shopping plaza's in between sprawling neighborhoods.

The dense areas tend to have the largest multicultural overlap, these areas often border the poorest and most riled up communities, collateral damage is going to happen. They move to the suburbs, things are spaced out too much to cause enough of a civil disturbance. Go too far in, you're hitting the rich rich, and spontaneous or three day pre-emptive protests are not organized well enough for those to be effective. You're going to need massive coordination and potential armed counter-response for that to happen outside of the super dense northeast cities, IMO.

Same reason why the protests on the Vegas Strip didn't get that far last night. While something like Minnesota could've probably happened downtown or in Summerlin and Henderson; that shit is going to be damn near impossible to actually happen on the Strip where it would matter most without thousands of people flocking to the streets and a significant portion of those protestors being legally armed individuals to make everyone else dull their reactions temporarily.
 

Budi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,922
Finland
It's complicated.

If you avoid all minority owned businesses, that means you're going to be in the suburbs, where dense movement is limited and there's nothing but smatterings of shopping plaza's in between sprawling neighborhoods.

The dense areas tend to have the largest multicultural overlap, these areas often border the poorest and most riled up communities, collateral damage is going to happen. They move to the suburbs, things are spaced out too much to cause enough of a civil disturbance. Go too far in, you're hitting the rich rich, and spontaneous or three day pre-emptive protests are not organized well enough for those to be effective. You're going to need massive coordination and potential armed counter-response for that to happen outside of the super dense northeast cities, IMO.

Same reason why the protests on the Vegas Strip didn't get that far last night. While something like Minnesota could've probably happened downtown or in Summerlin and Henderson; that shit is going to be damn near impossible to actually happen on the Strip where it would matter most without thousands of people flocking to the streets and a significant portion of those protestors being legally armed individuals to make everyone else dull their reactions temporarily.
Thanks for the reply, it was rather insightful especially to someone living far away from the US.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,742
UK
Article is pretty dense. Didn't finish it but from what I read so far it still comes off as wrong.

It brings up certain points that are interesting and partially correct but fundamentally wrong such as making distinction about looters vs protester plays into the hands of divide and conquer strategy. Yes defending the actions of protesters by pointing out how the ones who are peaceful are in the majority divides us from those who are looting but it doesn't matter.

Looters by far usually hurt the neighborhoods they live in which was also the case for Ferguson. Looters obviously have issues that the peaceful types are trying to fix but when you financial weaken the position of those protesters looters are blunting the energy peaceful protesters have to effect change.

Secondly as the author admits, Looters don't give a fuck about what they are looting. While they are victims of society they are simply lashing out instead of doing anything that is productive in pushing back like the majority of people protesting.

Looters by their own nature unintentionally divide themselves away from other forms of protest.


Since the article is about looting I'm guessing the author sidesteps violent protesters, people who critically think about what they are doing but assert through themselves with the threat of violence to back up their speech such as protesters who openly carry firearms while making themselves heard. If the author had thought to talk about violent protesters I feel they might have constructed a better argument with that in mind.


I will say that there is one section I felt was mostly right. Looting (or violence for that matter) encourages the media to report an incident more seriously but the author implies that this is always the case. I think peaceful protests need to reach a much larger critical mass to get equally serious attention such as the protests against Trump's internment camps for immigrants have recently proven. So the author is correct that looters unintentionally help peaceful protesters get more attention most of the time but this isn't always necessary to acquire such a focus.
Peaceful protests are not going to move the needle. They never did. All the movements to make society better required more force. No one talked about the Hong Kong protests which had been happening for months until the destruction started. Same with the yellow jacket protests in France. Stonewall. Civil rights movement. And hundreds more disruptive protest movements. The media pays attention to what bleeds, it doesn't care about peaceful protests that avoid being disruptive. We'd all love to live in a world where the white powers that be listened and cared to minorities' problems and oppression and listened to peaceful protests and didn't need destruction to be scared and do something. However, that inclusive and representative world doesn't exist yet.
 

TheMadTitan

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27,611
Thanks for the reply, it was rather insightful especially to someone living far away from the US.
NP.

My line of thinking is, unless people start using potato cannons or start kamikazeing drones tied to molotov cocktails into the more obvious structures of wealth, they're not going to have the same sort of reach.

I'm honestly surprised people aren't leveraging those tools, though.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191


Yeah I like this take the most. Not a fan of looting but there are bigger issues at play than mere property damage.

Ashley Reese
@offbeatorbit

And another was an Indian restaurant, owned by a man who said, "Let my building burn, justice needs to be served." So what now?
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,742
UK

Well said by Trevor Noah, thanks for linking this.
I imagine this has been shared around here somewhere already, but I just stumbled upon Trevor Noah's video talking about all of this and he touches on looting specifically towards the latter half. He frames it really, really well on why looting is always gonna be a natural response to this kind of societal issue because it's symptomatic of failing to uphold societal contracts. In the sense that: those in power agreed to treat those they govern fairly and equally when assuming that position, and so those they govern in return readily agree and conform to the placed upon rules. But as it is now (and has been for basically ever in this country), when black people are systematically treated unfairly, brutalized, and killed it signals that those in power are not upholding their end of the societal bargain, and so, after so much, a person is naturally gonna eventually stop and think, 'well then why should I?' When those who set the law refuse to fairly apply it to themselves and conversely unfairly apply it to black people/minorities and systematically murder them in the process, literally what reason do these folks have to show care for orderly conduct and property in return. Clearly it's not making a difference either way.

He says it all much more profoundly than I could ever begin to summarize his words, so I really recommend giving it a watch:




Essentially, when literally nothing else is working as a solution, escalation is gonna be the inevitable conclusion. If we want to coexist in a society where protest looting isn't a thing that happens, then we need to step up and hold those in power accountable--as they are the real source of the problem here, instead of pointing at black folks and telling them to be calm and peaceful in the face of all the shit they deal with. Like, shit, I'm just a simple white girl and I imagine I'm ignorant as fuck about a lot of things surrounding race and racism (and desperately hope I'm not stepping out of line anywhere here by saying all this), but it still seems clear as freaking day to me that looting is not the real problem nor should it be the focus at hand here. Anyone who is forced to live day in and day out in oppression is going to eventually have a breaking point, and, frankly, that it's primarily just a smattering of theft and property damage in the face of generations of utterly violating injustice is kind of extraordinary.
 
Mar 18, 2020
2,434


Yeah I like this take the most. Not a fan of looting but there are bigger issues at play than mere property damage.


To be honest, responding with this to a non-profit helping Native Americans being destroyed isn't great.

Like I know it's just the building and reading down the thread they got the archives out, but idk
 
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CSX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,943
https://twitter.com/CSX142857
I imagine this has been shared around here somewhere already, but I just stumbled upon Trevor Noah's video talking about all of this and he touches on looting specifically towards the latter half. He frames it really, really well on why looting is always gonna be a natural response to this kind of societal issue because it's symptomatic of failing to uphold societal contracts. In the sense that: those in power agreed to treat those they govern fairly and equally when assuming that position, and so those they govern in return readily agree and conform to the placed upon rules. But as it is now (and has been for basically ever in this country), when black people are systematically treated unfairly, brutalized, and killed it signals that those in power are not upholding their end of the societal bargain, and so, after so much, a person is naturally gonna eventually stop and think, 'well then why should I?' When those who set the law refuse to fairly apply it to themselves and conversely unfairly apply it to black people/minorities and systematically murder them in the process, literally what reason do these folks have to show care for orderly conduct and property in return. Clearly it's not making a difference either way.

He says it all much more profoundly than I could ever begin to summarize his words, so I really recommend giving it a watch:




Essentially, when literally nothing else is working as a solution, escalation is gonna be the inevitable conclusion. If we want to coexist in a society where protest looting isn't a thing that happens, then we need to step up and hold those in power accountable--as they are the real source of the problem here, instead of pointing at black folks and telling them to be calm and peaceful in the face of all the shit they deal with. Like, shit, I'm just a simple white girl and I imagine I'm ignorant as fuck about a lot of things surrounding race and racism (and desperately hope I'm not stepping out of line anywhere here by saying all this), but it still seems clear as freaking day to me that looting is not the real problem nor should it be the focus at hand here. Anyone who is forced to live day in and day out in oppression is going to eventually have a breaking point, and, frankly, that it's primarily just a smattering of theft and property damage in the face of generations of utterly violating injustice is kind of extraordinary.


Thanks for sharing. This was my view about the situation as well but there's no way I would have been able to express it as well as that video.
 
Oct 29, 2017
12,968
I'm going to side with MLK with this. I understand the reasoning behind looting and Rioting. Rioters are the voice of the unheard. But most don't want to hear. After 50 years of MLK's passing, the world tells me they don't want to listen to their voice.
 

JS3DX

Member
Feb 15, 2018
255
The response from business owners suggests otherwise.

Those business owners are clearly saying "We get and support your fight" and obviously not stating "Hey! Come later and loot my store! I don't care the least! Maybe even burn it to the ground, because that helpful!" because that would be stupid.

'Looting' and 'Protesting' are two VERY different things.
 

PennyStonks

Banned
May 17, 2018
4,401
You need to rewatch the movie, then...
The movie does not condemn Mookies actions in any way and may even condone them with the resulting de-escalation and subsequent scene where Sal is revealed to be able to recover.
Ultimately there is no 'Right Thing' and thats why the drunk tells us to "Always do the right thing" at the start of the movie.
 

JS3DX

Member
Feb 15, 2018
255
Ah yes, the monstrous criminal activity of walking off with a TV. Getting murdered by racist white cops is sad, for sure, but this here is the real societal problem.

So, looting stores for a TV now 'makes sense' because of a murder? One thing in exchange of the other? How exactly that honors his memory, brings the culprit to justice, reforms the system, or repair any wrongdoing?

Looting is theft.
 
Oct 28, 2017
27,936
There is looting going on right now Live. 845pm in Philly by a bunch of people who wasent at either protest. They came down here only after shit started to get ill. Man fuck this! Im not co-signing this shit. Its sad and does not help the cause. I just watched people call other people down here.

Curfew in place till 6am and my 17 year old son and his friend are at a birthday/graduation party. I gotta go out and navigate this madness.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
So, looting stores for a TV now 'makes sense' because of a murder? One thing in exchange of the other? How exactly that honors his memory, brings the culprit to justice, reforms the system, or repair any wrongdoing?

Looting is theft.
We saw exactly how it helped bring one of the culprits to justice. Before any looting or arson, Chauvin was a free man. After looting and arson, Chauvin was arrested.

What is the mechanism by which you think peaceful protest effects change, besides the threat of protest becoming violent? The Minneapolis PD and DA's office clearly didn't care enough about justice or outrage to act, but they did care about losing credibility when their actions inspired violence.
 

Truant

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,774
The problem is that looting is being covered by media in a vacuum. This shit doesn't just happen because people are greedy savages. It's a violent reaction from people who are fed up with being ignored.
 

DarkMagician

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,153
Is the looting even done by protestors? All I see are photos of white people doing the looting and destruction, at least here in Seattle. Seems like black folks and most allies are being peaceful, but opportunist nuts are doing a lot of the looting to cause more conflict. :\
 

thecouncil

Member
Oct 29, 2017
12,423
There is looting going on right now Live. 845pm in Philly by a bunch of people who wasent at either protest. They came down here only after shit started to get ill. Man fuck this! Im not co-signing this shit. Its sad and does not help the cause. I just watched people call other people down here.

Curfew in place till 6am and my 17 year old son and his friend are at a birthday/graduation party. I gotta go out and navigate this madness.

I just saw the emergency broadcast system being put to use on my TV here in Philly talking about the curfew. I don't recall ever seeing that in my entire life outside of the tests that occurred in the mornings when I was a kid.

I think it's all getting a bit messy now.
 
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JS3DX

Member
Feb 15, 2018
255
We saw exactly how it helped bring one of the culprits to justice. Before any looting or arson, Chauvin was a free man. After looting and arson, Chauvin was arrested.

What is the mechanism by which you think peaceful protest effects change, besides the threat of protest becoming violent? The Minneapolis PD and DA's office clearly didn't care enough about justice or outrage to act, but they did care about losing credibility when their actions inspired violence.

Was the looting the trigger? Or the sheer amount of people demanding justice? No looting = No justice?

I insist: If the system (or some institution) is the problem, go vandalize the police department, or even the court house if that the tipping point you are aiming for. Burning down some Walgreens or Pop's Bakery in your block doesn't do anything, besides killing those especific business and getting more people fired as a result.
 

Froyo Love

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,503
Was the looting the trigger? Or the sheer amount of people demanding justice? No looting = No justice?

I insist: If the system (or some institution) is the problem, go vandalize the police department, or even the court house if that the tipping point you are aiming for. Burning down some Walgreens or Pop's Bakery in your block doesn't do anything, besides killing those especific business and getting more people fired as a result.
There have been large amounts of people demanding justice for a lot of police murders of black Americans. Little has come of it. So yes, because system police racism is intractable and no political will exists in the majority to force change: no looting, no arson, no justice.

They did burn down the 3rd Precinct police department in Minneapolis. You know why they could? Because the police abandoned the station. Why did the police do that? Probably because the police were being overwhelmed responding to situations - like arson and looting - in multiple places throughout the city, in addition to the sustained protest pressure against the station.

Like, you're literally criticizing actions that immediately produced one of the desired results. Because, maybe they would have arrested Chauvin anyway, just to be nice? It's not hard to read this as "more convenient season" type rhetoric that is more unhappy with unrest than the injustice that produced unrest.
 

Bjones

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,622
Here in Rochester ny.
The mayor just gave the order for police to use ammunition because stores and communities are being looted, set on fire, and vandalized all over.
these people are not the peaceful protesters who gathered earlier.
 

farmland

Member
Oct 30, 2017
619
I don't see the point in moralising talk about looting. In an economy with baked in class relations, with origins in settler colonialism and slavery. Where those very material and racial hierarchies are reproduced everyday. Impoverished people will sometimes expropriate things during a revolt.
 

Fitts

You know what that means
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,518
Here in Rochester ny.
The mayor just gave the order for police to use ammunition because stores and communities are being looted, set on fire, and vandalized all over.
these people are not the peaceful protesters who gathered earlier.

Also in Rochester. Stay safe, friend.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
These protests are not just about Floyd's murder. Yes, it was the trigger, but the resentment has been simmering for a long time. It took a pandemic and the literal collapse of the world economy to catch fire but the kindling has been piling up for years.

nprcodeswitch-saytheirnamev3_custom-968f06eb14e6ca9321e9aa53ae318d230ac4b691-s1600-c85.jpg


www.npr.org

A Decade Of Watching Black People Die : Code Switch

The last few weeks have been filled with devastating news — stories about the police killing black people. At this point, these calamities feel familiar — so familiar, in fact, that their details have begun to echo each other.

Any one of these murders could've kicked off the same unrest, this just happens to be the one that stuck. Is it unfortunate that there are opportunists using the chaos to loot non-offending businesses? Yes. Is there regrettable collateral damage of innocent buildings? Also yes. Unfortunately, you cannot control and direct riots (or else they would be insurrections and not riots and would probably look uglier), and the existence of looters should not detract from what is happening in this moment, the failure of neoliberal capitalism to "lift all boats" like it advertises on the brochure, and the demand for overdue justice. Justice is not always pretty, and it doesn't have to be. This country was founded on much worse violence and "looting".
 
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Aug 2, 2018
269
Shits starting to go down in Tampa. We had peaceful protest earlier in the day. Now people are starting to light fires and loot. Weather you think it's right or wrong what's going to happen is the story will become about the looting and destruction more than any cause. Of course most will say that's what would have been done anyway. So it's a lose lose I suppose.
 

EloquentM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,631
Keep looting. keep rioting. Keep people paying attention. Fuck people saying it's not warranted. Fuck this country and fuck those who wish to continue to uphold the status quo. I'm tired of our people dying.
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,527
Gentrified Brooklyn
I dunno, seems simple to me. Cause and effect. You push the idea that for certain groups there is no concept of law and order, they will respond in kind.

After years of peaceful protests, where else was this going to go? Imagine another peaceful protest, would they have even arrested the cop?

At the end of the day this violence is specifically because they set the police up as a protected class and set them loose against minorities. As we slide deeper into a recession and the loss of the American dream...those young kids who would come from privilege and could actively ignore these ills can't...they are in this shit too.
 

falcondoc

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,412
Looting is the end result of civil unrest and riots - you can't stop it. The natural progression.

The blame lies with the racist American law enforcement organization
 
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