The upscaling may take 2ms of render time, but resolution saving's alone are bigger than that, so you're still ahead.
[Insider Gaming] PS5 Pro Enhanced Requirements Detailed (mode that combines PSSR 4K upscaling, 60FPS, and RT, not a requirement for 'Enhanced' label)
- Thread starter Red Kong XIX
- Start date
Sure and most games are already spending a similar amount of render time on smart upscaling. I do remember that FSR2 cost is quite high on consoles and CBR reconstruction can actually be higher than that.
There was an interview at DF speaking with AMD's director of game engineering, Nicolas Thibieroz, saying that they had to get FSR 2 as close to 2ms as possible on XS. Indicating it was already higher back in 2022.
Games aren't updated with newer FSR iterations either. They're stuck with what they ship with.
So unless PSSR is somehow worse than FSR at the time of shipping then it will always yield better IQ.
And based on the leaked images PSSR is far superior to FSR. Motion we will have to see of course.
This. And as indicated in the leaked slides, Sony will likely reduce that render time in the future (with even better IQ). We can say this based on how Nvidia improved DLSS along the years. AI upscaling is just so potent.
Motion is where FSR is already at its worst use case compared to the others. So the comparison was likely showing the best case scenario for FSR2 vs DLSS. You really can't do worse than FSR2 in motion!
Tbh, I wish it would release much sooner, I can't stand how outdated the PS5 is but we gonna wait regardless.
There is a huge difference between GoW Ragnarok Quality and Perf mode. Native 4k simply looks league sharper than the TAAU which is worse than DLSS performance mode would look. But on consoles, they can get away with it because people sit farther away from TVs so the differences become imperceptible. If you were to play the game on a 4k monitor, the difference would be night and day. DLSS is the only solution I have seen in quality mode which can reconstruct native 4k from 1440p without major visible differences. PSSR needs to compete with that
How is it outdated? The PS5 Pro isnt going to achieve anything new which the current PS5 already cannot do. Ray Tracing remains out of question as this is AMD hardware. Games running at 30 FPS / 40 FPS won't reach 60 FPS so native 4k 60 is still unachiveable.
The only benefit I can see is PSSR and unlocked FPS mode in VRR will reach a slightly higher frame rate but nothing groundbreaking.
I think you are out of the race and has not been following the story for like many months. One of the biggest additions of this console is offering what is suppsoed dedicated hardware for RT which will result in much better RT results. And from the little know the console is heavily custom one from Sony cerny and his team rather just a full receieved cooekd product from AMD in different aspect including the AI accelerators and the upscaler ML solution.
Last edited:
There is explicitly dedicated hardware in the Pro that reportedly runs 2-4X better.
GPU limited games (basically all of them) in combination with PSSR can, and will reach 60fps for games that run in fidelity mode on base PS5.
The best AMD GPU on the market right now, 7900XTX cannot handle any real form of RT. Just barebones RT Shadows or weak RTGI. All rumors for RDNA 4 also indicate RT performance on next gen AMD cards is lacklustre and its only with RDNA 5 we will see any traction on ray tracing.
Even when Sony is involved, at the end of the day, its AMD's tech being used and considering how bad their upcoming GPUs are in RT, there is no way the PS5 Pro will do much in this respect.
Even on Nvidia cards, on mid range hardware, you need to use DLSS Performance mode and / or Frame Generation to get RT working at native 4k and it works only because DLSS is so robust that 1080p upscaling still manages to look nice.
I highly doubt the RT Performance of the PS5 Pro would exceed AMD's upcoming RDNA 4 mid range GPUs or even the 7900 XTX. I would be shocked if it did as AMD might as well just shut down their dGPU business if a $500 console can outperform their $1,000 / $800 class GPUs in RT. Why buy thosse cards if the PS5 outperforms them anyway?
Also to use lower resolution rendering, the CPU on the PS5 needs upgrading and that isn't being improved much. 60 FPS remains out of question if it cant do it on PS5.
Key featiures for this console:
dedicated RT hardwares
dedicated ML hardware and AI accelerators
PSSSR whicsh better than the CrAppy FSR 2.2
newer architecture than AMD GPU on the market with custom features
Everything any AMD GPU lacks so yeah things will be different otherwise they won't even bother with it.
Just because it is dedicated hardware doesn't mean much because its AMD's hardware. I am just saying it would look hilarious if AMD releases their 8800XT GPU in Q4 this year for $600, and its outperformed by a signficantly cheaper PS5 in RT and upscaling. I am sceptical of this considering it is AMD.
That is the whole point of putting these two types of dedicated hardware features in the Pro, but no one is out here claiming that it will beat the 7900XTX. Sony, who has a lot of hardware development experience, working with AMD to advance their GPU tech should not be seen as a negative. These kinds of strategic partnerships are formed all the time for development purposes.
Much lower tier Nvidia cards outperform higher end AMD cards on ML and RT workloads. This is the same situation except on a console, but this will also be hardware development AMD has access to and could integrate into their own GPUs. Maybe this development is not ready for RDNA 4, since Kepler mentioned that it was only going to be a mid range lineup, and the brunt of the tech will not be ready until RDNA 5. If the PS5 Pro also uses RDNA 4 or some kind of hybrid CU, that would likely lead to efficiency and other hardware gains.
I tend to agree. The only thing I have some sort of faith in is PSSR given that it's applied on a fixed platform; it could very well punch above its weight. For the rest of the features I firmly believe it's all a bit undercooked and more a reason for Sony & AMD to protoype some new features and get those in hands of developers. But I felt similar about the PS4 Pro and that didn't blow me away either.
Let's be real, Sony wouldn't release an ML reconstruction solution that wasn't either impressive or at least very competent , given that for years there's already been an established expectation due to XeSS and DLSS. They'd be absolutely eviscerated and jeered in the media if it were subpar.
Not to mention that Sony already has well-regarded ML upscaling. In their TVs, sure, but they're not starting from zero here.
do they? I have never heard of bravia ML uspcaling. Even nvidia shield so called AI video upscaler is nothing more than just NIS. Their new RTX AI video upsampler isn't all that impressive neither
Which one oftheir TV lineup has this? Does mediatek soc has a NPU even assuming they are still using mediatek
I really do think this game will be a major showcase for the system at the presentation.
From what we know the game does already on the base PS5
120fps
30fps RT in replay
4K 60fps
In VR 60fps >120fps reprojection
Would it be hard to believe it will achieve some of these examples?
4K 120fps locked.
6k-8K* 60fps- for a 8k TV or the legit benefit of super sampled for a 4K TV
4K* 60fps RT (regular PS5 version does 30fps RT replay)
And then VR.... with Foveated Rendering...8k textures?(cyubeVR supports 8k textures on the PSVR2)...RT (Eye Tracking Foveated Rendering for RT is a thing)
Anyway... here is a live stream of the game right now.. look how real it already looks. You can rewind it. Man I can't wait.
View: https://www.youtube.com/live/F39tgCGYsTc?si=AkwMw7-8wenIFtQ1
Last edited:
RT shadow or RTAO and RTGI hopefully. Pixelated shadow is always the immersion breaker for all GT game visual for me especially when I drive in cockpit camera. Not sure how PSSR quality is, I heard DLSS is actually not that great for VR due to smearing.
I was going to say this. It's better any reconstruction tech for any VR game. The eyes can not digest any artifact or super sampled image if they spot any from a very close direction. that is what I jave been reading and hearing from many devs. So don't count on PS5 Pro to improve PSVR2 that much with that very small GPU jump in raster.
Are any companies actually going to go back and add in support for PSSR or any of the additional power or features to existing games that could really use it?
I very much doubt it.
I very much doubt it.
It's 45% vs the 120-130% of the PS4 Pro, I think that's a fair assessment. The console is clearly focusing on VR and ML over brute force. I don't want to jump to conclusions about PSSR being useless for VR, though. Let's see what they end up doing.
History tells us no, but Sony at least made it easier for them this time around. They don't need to be on the latest SDK, something that was needed for PS4 pro support last time around.
If it's easy enough for devs then I think at least initially there will be a lot of support for games, because your game will stand out if it has PS5 pro support.
This, not to mention that sequels can make it more likely. I remember when MGSV got a Pro update, not when the Pro launched, but when Metal Gear Survive came out. So even if something like FFVII Rebirth doesn't get an update at launch, I would expect to see it happen around the launch of the third game.
Personally I hope Sony gives each game an update fee waiver or something.
It's 45% vs the PS5 no? Isn't that more of a fair assessment?
I think there was a decent amount for the PS4 Pro back then already, but this time it's even easier since they wouldn't have to include a new SDK
Tbh, I don't think the supporting updates will flow like rain. the multiplatform games support will be much less than for last-gen considering that there is just one mid-gen platform and not 2 to push the upgrade in a bigger scale and I don't think even all first party released games will have a PS5 Pro support even those that got PC version with improved or added RT like Returnal or Sackboy (Sony never cared having proper PS5 versions for Dayse Gone, GOW and Horizon adding the new PC features for them). That is why they still have the boost mode.
You know how much the jump between PS5 and PS4 and PS4 Pro yet we still struggle to get cross-gen games to look much better than their last gen counter parts and we still can't hit one mode with 4K 60 FPS in them. PS4 Pro got a nice boost in GPUwhich helped VR a little but if you think just 45% now which is very small relatively to the new metrics of improevemnts gonna help both PS5 and PSVR2 look much better raster wise then I really don't know what to tell you. That is why they will rely mostly on PSSSR to compensate the lack of a GPU gain worth mentioning and to come back to the top, the latter solution may not be well suited for VR, at least in theory.
Releasing an ML assisted upscaling which will fare better than FSR2 is not that high of an ask really.
Yeah this is what I have been saying for quite some time. Being better than the worst solution ever created is far from being an achievemnt and crying victory for. We need to know how far it compares to the other ones even if they won't be applied to PS5 Pro but just for comparison. Don't forget the launch version of PSSSR could be very rudimentary and not pack as many enhancements or optimistations as expected (even the leaked documents suggest that). Ok it will improve over time and more likely year by yera like the other solutions but there will be games that will be shipped with current PSSSR version and may never be touched again which will eb problematic if the launch version is not that much better than FSR 2.2
We dont know for sure thats how itll work. Its possible that the base model is an environement configuration and whenever it gets upgraded that affects all games using it.
A lot of this stuff will absolutely be to get it out the door and iterate for PS6.
PSSR and frame generation will be a big part of PS6 IMO.
Likely some time around September with a November release.
PSSSR frame generation for PS6. no idea why you are so pessmisitic buddy. PSSSR will be able to upscale to 8K for PS5 Pro, so I expect FG will be even before that. I mean FG in FSR 3.X is possible on current consoles (Immortals will have it) so no way they gonna wait till PS6 to have FG in PSSSR.
Sorry but 45% it's not very small. Very small would be something less than 10%.
I have upgrade my PC GPU for less than 45% improvement in performance.
You do realize that last gen PS4 Pro got 2.3x GPU increase and XB1X go 4.6x increase over their base consoles and this wasn't enough? 45% now and considering current metrics is small, yeah. And you all miss the point I mentioned that that increase won't help VR a lot considering that normal gamùes will rely mostly on PSSSR while for VR it's not a granted thing and even the document didn't even mention anything related to VR and improvements.
That is without forgetting the non exitent (yet not even very small now) CPU increase now compared to last time.
45% over the PS5 vs the PS4 Pro being 120-130% over the PS4. Probably due to the process node improvements also being much less.
That is absolutely very small compared to the jumps of previous Pro consoles, and I wouldn't be bothering with a GPU upgrade where that was all it offered unless I was paying very little for it. Thankfully, that isn't all the PS5 Pro will offer - it's RT and ML capabilities will be a fantastic improvement. But any game that doesn't use either of those is going to get a more minor benefit.
Its not really right to compare PS5 to PS5 Pro improvement based on leaked real world evaluation against PS4 to PS4 Pro with raw GPU TF increase.
PS5 Pro has a 63% faster GPU without dual issue.
Meanwhile PS4 Pro struggled running many games at 2x resolution, settling for 40~70% more pixels in real world scenarios (1800p checkerboard for lower bar and native 1440p for higher bar), games that could do 4k checkerboard either utilized additional PS4 Pro optimizations, or were not as GPU limited as they were CPU limited.
Native 1440p is more than 70% extra pixels over 1080p, and it's likely that many games only used that and 1800p CB due to them being standard resolutions - they could've gone higher if DRS had been more widespread at the time. I actually always thought it would've been cool if checkerboard and DRS could've been combined. These days we have a lot more games with DRS that should hopefully be able to go a bit more granular, so at least there's that.
But we're getting into the weeds here. What matters is that the PS5 Pro is much more reliant on its extra features than its predecessor was, which is fine as long as those extra features are actually used. But if they aren't, then at least some games are going to have more disappointing updates than they otherwise might have. I hope dual-issue has a bigger effect than were expecting and that the machine punches above its weight, and that PSSR turns out to actually be really useful for VR.
I might well be being a bit pessimistic indeed, if the TOPS values are accurate there is a lot of machine learning grunt so maybe we will see AI frame gen on PS5Pro? Interestingly they should be able to use FSR3 frame gen with the images produced by PSSR too!
Yeah, maybe Dual Issue will be used very well thsi time around in a closed box environment and not just stay a theortical figure. I mean John rzssured us that coding to the metal is still a thing. :p
with FSR3.1, there shouldn't be anything to stop any hardware to use FG now, will have to see how the input lag is in Immortal of Aveum once the FSR3 udpate drop.