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Is it ethically wrong to buy a new console/upgrade PC knowing that there's a possibility of slave labour being used?
- Thread starter Rosenkrantz
- Start date
User Banned (3 Days): Whataboutism; Inflammatory Accusation
It's not just China. Slave labor is quite widespread. And the fact that this is only brought up in regard to China is always telling. Both about whose lives are valued, and what the real motivations behind this conversation typically is.
One reason to like Apple is how they're getting away from these practices, moving production to India from China, using aluminum from recycling their old products, etc.
OP
OP
In this thread it's brought up in regards of China because the connection between the country and corporations in a video game industry is really goddamn strong. That's all there's to it.
I really don't understand the point you're trying to make. Are you ok with Uighur's being forcefully assimilated and held in concentration camps?
Some of us are Muslims concerned for our fellow Uighur folks. I don't think it's fair to say we only care about China problems and not others.
Yes, it is ethically wrong.
And yes, I do think about upgrading and buying new electronics and what that means for the workers in the production line, and the environmental effects.
I still do it, but I try to do it less and be careful of doing it only when I really feel I need it. And to be really mindful of where my old electronics go to. Giving them away to someone that needs them and last resort try to get them to proper recycling.
I also try to vote for the local politicians who show a willingness to work against the unethical electronics industry (and many other large industries that are just as terrible).
Hiding your head in the sand and saying 'everything is unethical in the system we live in' is dreary, lazy and fucked up. That attitude will lead to disaster. We have to try to do something.
And yes, I do think about upgrading and buying new electronics and what that means for the workers in the production line, and the environmental effects.
I still do it, but I try to do it less and be careful of doing it only when I really feel I need it. And to be really mindful of where my old electronics go to. Giving them away to someone that needs them and last resort try to get them to proper recycling.
I also try to vote for the local politicians who show a willingness to work against the unethical electronics industry (and many other large industries that are just as terrible).
Hiding your head in the sand and saying 'everything is unethical in the system we live in' is dreary, lazy and fucked up. That attitude will lead to disaster. We have to try to do something.
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It's the latter one. In the end of the day you are still (probably) buying new games, accessories, online subscriptions etc. that supports Sony, MS and other manufactures who uses slave labor and otherwise conveniently ignores human rights issues when it's enough profitable to them to do so.
Props to OP for making this thread. It's definitely important topic to have and which I have thought as well. Then again, I really don't have an answer to this. Feels like impossible task to change the status quo.
The whole premise that regular people have personal responsibility when it's the system that is fucked is nonsense.
"Poor innocent job creators and global corporations can't help but pollute the planet and use slave labor, it's you personally who are buying the stuff that is responsible!"
The whole system needs fundamental reforms.
Though I don't think those reforms won't happen until humanity has a knife at its throat because the powers that be would need to give up some of their power for those reforms to happen and they'll never do that voluntarily.
"Poor innocent job creators and global corporations can't help but pollute the planet and use slave labor, it's you personally who are buying the stuff that is responsible!"
The whole system needs fundamental reforms.
Though I don't think those reforms won't happen until humanity has a knife at its throat because the powers that be would need to give up some of their power for those reforms to happen and they'll never do that voluntarily.
I don't really understand why it's easier to get ethically produced clothing and food than it is to get ethically produced technology. These tech corporations are worth billions, if not trillions and you're telling me they cannot pay a few dollars extra for production, change manufacturers, perhaps charge more to consumers? Shit makes no sense, the new iPhone costs $1000 anyways add an extra $500 and say this one has no ties with slave labour
People lazy to do research and repeating the quote again and again
I appreciate your post. This is something that's concerned me for a long time, and has been the source of much internal conflict. I love technology, and I love video games but morality and ethics weighs heavily on my mind. I agree it is unethical to upgrade or buy a new console. Whilst I believe we don't share the same level of responsibility that technology execs do (eg. Foxconn, Sony, Nintendo etc...) we are buying into the system.
I'm... not going to stop playing video games, and buying consoles. Or phones. Or computers. Shaming myself about these things has only fueled depression and at the end of the day my highest allegiance is to myself.
But - I try to get the most out of my electronics. I take good care of what I have, and try not to let hype dictate my purchases. I'll repair and fix what I can and try to squeeze the most life out of my Pixel 2. I'll wait a while for a PS5 for a while, and I'll sell my PS4 and donate the profits to an effective charity. I'll follow the news and jump on opportunities to enact change (like you with politicians)
Being cognisant of these issues is very uncomfortable. But hand-waving it away doesn't help at all, and I would like to help a little bit.
Apologies for the bump but imo this is a worthy subject.
Discussing virtue ethics and moral philosophy on Era can be really tough, especially in the context of hobby enthusiasts and their purchasing behaviour.
A lot of pressing social issues don't have 'both sides' bullshit because they are fundamentally about basic human rights (I'm looking at you CDPR threads), but many people still have differing views on taking principled action, and whether it is ethically irresponsible to not do so.
These threads tend to result in tons of provisional / permanent bans because they evoke incredibly strong emotions, but it's also irresponsible to dismiss people wanting to talk about these super important causes, even if the Gaming Forum isn't the best platform necessarily.
I don't like the connotation or assumption that not taking action makes you a hypocritical coward, but I don't have a great rebuttal either. So...yeah. I'll be a hypocritical coward and say I take principled action when something aggreges or offends me, but that largely depends on my mental state at the time.
I buy known Foxconn-manufactured items, but I am vehemently against slave labour and uighur genocide like any sane person. I don't think that makes me an abhorrent person, but others are free to judge, of course.
A lot of pressing social issues don't have 'both sides' bullshit because they are fundamentally about basic human rights (I'm looking at you CDPR threads), but many people still have differing views on taking principled action, and whether it is ethically irresponsible to not do so.
These threads tend to result in tons of provisional / permanent bans because they evoke incredibly strong emotions, but it's also irresponsible to dismiss people wanting to talk about these super important causes, even if the Gaming Forum isn't the best platform necessarily.
I don't like the connotation or assumption that not taking action makes you a hypocritical coward, but I don't have a great rebuttal either. So...yeah. I'll be a hypocritical coward and say I take principled action when something aggreges or offends me, but that largely depends on my mental state at the time.
I buy known Foxconn-manufactured items, but I am vehemently against slave labour and uighur genocide like any sane person. I don't think that makes me an abhorrent person, but others are free to judge, of course.
While it isn't on the same level as slavery, all transactions under capitalism involve exploitation on some level.
In a better/perfect world we would take steps to stop this. The fact of the matter is that it's unstoppable at this point. I'd wager everyone in this thread is exploited at some level.
Just my view, of course. Myself, before I go work a ten to twelve hour shift in a few hours (with no sleep) I need to make a schedule for 40 people for a month. Between that, timekeeping, and trying to cover employees out with Covid, that was my entire "weekend off". I consider that mild exploitation. Not on the level of what's going on overseas, by any stretch, but unethical nonetheless.
It's an awful machine that destroys people, but there's no escape. It's the way of the world and if you resist it it just actively tries to destroy you instead of passively crushing your spirit until you die.
I wish there was a better way but I feel is beyond our reach to change it now.
I feel most people are aware on some level of the consequences of consuming, but the crushing weight of their own situation makes it hard for them to look beyond themselves.
edit- I'll bring this back around you games. When it comes to crunch time in regards to developers working unethical amounts of time I feel empathy but, also, some of us work 65-75 hour weeks every week and even when we're "off" are still expected to be accomplish work-related tasks. In my situation, the person I report to directly puts in a solid 40 hour week occasionally but often does not.
When I hear about crunch in game development I understand how that destroys individuals and families, but as someone in the midst of personally being destroyed by the same mechanism, it's all I can do to shrug my shoulders, say "that sucks" and try to survive my own day.
In a better/perfect world we would take steps to stop this. The fact of the matter is that it's unstoppable at this point. I'd wager everyone in this thread is exploited at some level.
Just my view, of course. Myself, before I go work a ten to twelve hour shift in a few hours (with no sleep) I need to make a schedule for 40 people for a month. Between that, timekeeping, and trying to cover employees out with Covid, that was my entire "weekend off". I consider that mild exploitation. Not on the level of what's going on overseas, by any stretch, but unethical nonetheless.
It's an awful machine that destroys people, but there's no escape. It's the way of the world and if you resist it it just actively tries to destroy you instead of passively crushing your spirit until you die.
I wish there was a better way but I feel is beyond our reach to change it now.
I feel most people are aware on some level of the consequences of consuming, but the crushing weight of their own situation makes it hard for them to look beyond themselves.
edit- I'll bring this back around you games. When it comes to crunch time in regards to developers working unethical amounts of time I feel empathy but, also, some of us work 65-75 hour weeks every week and even when we're "off" are still expected to be accomplish work-related tasks. In my situation, the person I report to directly puts in a solid 40 hour week occasionally but often does not.
When I hear about crunch in game development I understand how that destroys individuals and families, but as someone in the midst of personally being destroyed by the same mechanism, it's all I can do to shrug my shoulders, say "that sucks" and try to survive my own day.
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It is a worthy bump and yeah it is a good idea to donate your old consoles to charity, especially now.
Genocide Denialism, but woke.
Really just going full mask-off fash apologism here lmao. "Some YouTuber said a thing so all leftists believe that. Also leftists never give actual explanations as to why socialist countries failed" as if it's not easy to look up and see "The US staged a coup" was the reason they failed.
It's not ideal but the only real solution it to vote capitalism out. You can work hard to be somewhat at peace with yourself, but for most people it would mean giving up on so much comfort or enjoyment that it would hurt their mental health. That's where we're at.
So basically first post nails it.
So basically first post nails it.