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Is it ethically wrong to buy a new console/upgrade PC knowing that there's a possibility of slave labour being used?

Deleted member 2840

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,400
Deepwater said:
"as far as we know" is just a convenient way of driving your weird anti iPhone agenda and positioning other phones as more ethical choices

https://www.zdnet.com/google-amp/ar...-bad-lot-in-tech-brand-workers-rights-report/



Vast most majority of companies don't even know where the raw materials used to make their products are even coming from. And they don't care to know because they know it's covered in blood. I'm telling you right now that these materials are not sourced ethically and you're vaguely gesturing about only reading reports about apple and you can't do anything else about anyone else. Like give it up.
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"Weird anti iPhone agenda" excuse me? The fuck are you talking about?
I "chose" the iPhone as an example because it's one kind of phone made by a single company that's been reported again and again to have really morally questionable sourced materials. Yes, it's really probable that the vast majority of phone manufacturers use raw materials from ethically wrong sources, but from what have been reported it's not -the- only morally questionable thing they do.

And, again, if I have sources in MY FACE telling me that a company uses slave labor while there's no such a thing for company Y going "WHELP GUESS THERES NO WAY TO KNOW IF THEY ALSO USE SLAVES.ILL JUST BUY IT FROM THE PROVEN MORALLY DUBIOUS MANUFACTURER " is being a huge hypocrite mate.
Anti Apple agenda, give me a fucking break
 
Deepwater

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
saci said:
"Weird anti iPhone agenda" excuse me? The fuck are you talking about?
I "chose" the iPhone as an example because it's one kind of phone made by a single company that's been reported again and again to have really morally questionable sourced materials. Yes, it's really probable that the vast majority of phone manufacturers use raw materials from ethically wrong sources, but from what have been reported it's not -the- only morally questionable thing they do.

And, again, if I have sources in MY FACE telling me that a company uses slave labor while there's no such a thing for company Y going "WHELP GUESS THERES NO WAY TO KNOW IF THEY ALSO USE SLAVES.ILL JUST BUY IT FROM THE PROVEN MORALLY DUBIOUS MANUFACTURER " is being a huge hypocrite mate.
Anti Apple agenda, give me a fucking break
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so what are the ethically available phones to purchase?
 

Deleted member 2840

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Oct 25, 2017
5,400
Deepwater said:
my wardrobe is mostly t shirts and shorts, but thanks for asking! Fuck outta here thinking this is a intelligible retort. The plain white rags are probably produced by kids too, are mother fuckers supposed to go naked? You act like the vast majority of the populace is out here buying $200 shirts and yeezys. Most Americans get their clothes from Walmart and Target, relax.
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You can easily easily EASILY find locally sourced, or even imported shirts that are PROVEN to not use slave labour nor kid labour. Buying cheap shirts and shorts from China when you have the option(and capability-I'm not going to say anything to a poor person buying a cheap Walmart shirt because that's what they can afford) is just lazily propping up ethically abhorrent behaviour
 
zer0_X

zer0_X

Alt-Account
Banned
Apr 23, 2020
790
OP, if you are able to rationalize like you are doing and have the conscience to visualize the whole situation and write it down, it is an ethical problem and it's chasing you.
 
Shining Star

Shining Star

Banned
May 14, 2019
4,458
Deepwater said:
my wardrobe is mostly t shirts and shorts, but thanks for asking! Fuck outta here thinking this is a intelligible retort. The plain white rags are probably produced by kids too, are mother fuckers supposed to go naked? You act like the vast majority of the populace is out here buying $200 shirts and yeezys. Most Americans get their clothes from Walmart and Target, relax.
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Please don't swear at me, I just didn't think your argument made sense to me. I would never go to a walmart or a target myself.
 
Deepwater

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
saci said:
You can easily easily EASILY find locally sourced, or even imported shirts that are PROVEN to not use slave labour nor kid labour. Buying cheap shirts and shorts from China when you have the option(and capability-I'm not going to say anything to a poor person buying a cheap Walmart shirt because that's what they can afford) is just lazily propping up ethically abhorrent behaviour
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and none of these brands are available at Walmart or target. Thus they are not accessible to the average person. Try again


saci said:
Who knows? Why should -I- have to share what I've researched to someone that clearly will use anything to justify buying their favorite phones?
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Because you don't have any LMAO
 

Deleted member 2840

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Oct 25, 2017
5,400
Deepwater said:
and none of these brands are available at Walmart or target. Thus they are not accessible to the average person. Try again
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(While I can't say for sure if that is true, as I'm not a privileged American)Great. Are -you- an average person? Do you have the OPTION to -not- buy clothes made by kids? If you do, but you still keep doing it, you're being ethically wrong

Because you don't have any LMAO
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aaand there it is
 
Deepwater

Deepwater

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,349
saci said:
(While I can't say for sure if that is true, as I'm not a privileged American)Great. Are -you- an average person? Do you have the OPTION to -not- buy clothes made by kids? If you do, but you still keep doing it, you're being ethically wrong
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yeah sure, but that's not applicable to most folks which again is the point that clothes are part of the goods included in "no ethical consumption under capitalism". It's not about me, I've never made any claims about me wanting or not wanting to be ethical.
 

Deleted member 27471

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,206
Lol, I have no choice in consumption, therefore I don't care comments. If you cared, that would at least be a start.

Our entire western world is based on needless consumption of things from unethical sources ranging from food, clothes and tech. While it's hard to avoid, and you're going to consume regardless on some level, the best thing to do is be informed, make the best decisions when you can, educate others, and get involved in finding ways to effect policy makers. The world is currently in a shift with ppl fighting for equality, equity and social justice. There's no reason we can't do the same for these things.
 

Deleted member 2840

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Oct 25, 2017
5,400
Deepwater said:
yeah sure, but that's not applicable to most folks which again is the point that clothes are part of the goods included in "no ethical consumption under capitalism". It's not about me, I've never made any claims about me wanting or not wanting to be ethical.
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That's great then, I guess we got our wires crossed then. It's all about people's options. As I've said, if someone has the option to "do the right thing" but doesn't do it, that's ethically wrong. But you can't apply that to people that have no obvious options(a poor family buying slave-made shirts because otherwise they wouldn't have enough to it).
 
CloudsFromSpace

CloudsFromSpace

Member
Mar 8, 2018
1,161
Not to be totally crass, but essentially everything in the world is produced as the result of actually coerced (enslavement) or systemically coerced (if you don't work, you will starve/become homeless/lose status, etc) labor. Different labor in different places involves different levels of coercion, but at the end of the day it's all the same thing. Very few things in life are produced out of free and totally un-coerced labor.

Even if you separated yourself entirely to become a subsistence farmer on a totally self-sufficient plot of land, with a house that you built from the ground up by forging your own materials.... you would still be benefiting from this system of coerced labor. Unless you magically had this knowledge or someone freely taught you how to build and farm from scratch, you'd need a semi-coerced educator who used tools built by coerced or semi-coerced people. The land you build on would only be yours as the end result of violent takeover at some point in the distant past. The political stability that grants you the ability to isolate yourself safely from the world is built by a civil service of workers who are semi-coerced.

You can't escape it, so you have to decide what you think you're comfortable with.
 

DarkJ

Member
Nov 11, 2017
1,110
Its as ethical as it currently can be given the state of the world. Even our food is picked by people making pennies on the dollar. If you really want to get big brained, you can argue its unethical to use the water thats controlled and provided by the corrupt government.

Unless you are 100% off the grid since birth you will benefit in some way from unethical acts done on your behalf.

As I have no control over it, the best I can do is acknowledge it and vote for change where and when I can.
 
Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,307
UK
Thank you for making the thread, Rosenkrantz , I'd been thinking of making one similarly.

I can't in good conscience buy a PS5 or Xbox Series X or the 3080 which are all being made by forced Uighur Muslim slave labour. I'd rather use that much money to go to efforts to help the Uighur people affected if possible.

If people want to match donations when they do buy these new consoles, that's up to them.

I don't know what's so hard about these multinational corporations to not use slave labour to manufacture their technology. Some tech companies have vowed not to use Foxconn after reports came out about the suicides. All we can do as consumers is demand these companies to push for ethical manufacturing.

I don't agree with the defeatist "all consumption under capitalism is unethical" because there's no action to follow up after that. No pressure to change anything and if anything, it just perpetuates the status quo.
 
Siresly

Siresly

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Oct 27, 2017
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themuzzotheory said:
Is ethical consumption possible under capitalism? No.
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It is 100% possible. I've done a bunch of ethical consumptions. What's stopping you?

I've ignored ASUS for the computer I'm putting together.
I bought a Gigabyte monitor over a Dell or LG.
I might eventually buy a PS5.
Oh no I'm a hypocrite.

I embrace the subtext of "no ethical consumerism under capitalism" that basically suggests we are hypocrites if we ever make a purchase decision based on an ethical concern. I think we've all done that at some point in our lives and we're all hypocrites. With that being the case, someone being a hypocritical consumer means nothing.

The idea that you have to commit to never buy anything that has anything remotely bad going on, is nonsense that propagates the idea that sitting by and never doing anything is the right thing to do. When in reality that toxic defeatist garbage is just an excuse for people to never engage, and attempted justification for not feeling bad about it.

Occasionally doing something to improve society somewhat is infinitely preferable to always doing nothing.
It's up to you to choose what to consume ethically or not.
 
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Wet Jimmy

Wet Jimmy

Member
Nov 11, 2017
811
Is capitalism ethical? As compared to what?

So far, none of the alternatives tried have done nearly as good a job as capitalism of keeping most of the population out of poverty and even providing them with a reasonable level of comfort.

Until we have evidence that there is another system that can do better, the sensible course seems to be to stick with capitalism and attempt to deal with its flaws rather than to abandon it.

:)
 
Death Penalty

Death Penalty

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,317
Remind yourself that game consoles are essentially toys and the answer is obvious. This isn't a necessity like food, water, shelter, or in our modern world the internet. You are knowingly buying a luxury item that is the product of slave labor. It is certainly ethically wrong.
 

Deleted member 14192

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User Banned (1 Week):Hostility; Inflammatory Generalization
Just admit you don't give a fuck about minority kids being used for slave labour instead of spouting some stupid ass "there's no ethical consumption under capitalism".

You value fuxkint video games more than unknown people's lives, that's it.
 
TaterTots

TaterTots

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Oct 27, 2017
12,986
I would say yes, but most people swallow that pill because there is only so much in life to keep you entertained.
 
Fawz

Fawz

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Oct 28, 2017
3,675
Montreal
Any mass manufactured consumer good has a risk of coming at the cost of unethical labour or source materials being used. Inform yourself the best you can to not be an ignorant consumer that perpetuates the problem needlessly if there are better alternatives that are reasonably accessible comparatively.

If you bought something without knowing you can feel bad but I wouldn't go so far as to trash that item as it doesn't do anyone any good, but def use it as a lesson moving forward for future purchases to take the time and effort to better inform yourself.
 
Ghost of Jhoto

Ghost of Jhoto

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Jul 20, 2020
1,314
Yes because if we all went after these companies the same way we cancel people on twitter we could make actual change in the processes used to create the products we love. But it won't because we will only go after something that won't make any change in our day to day lives. Myself included. Which sucks because we aren't leveraging our power as consumers.
 
LumberPanda

LumberPanda

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Feb 3, 2019
6,400
Absolutely.

"There's no ethical consumption under capitalism" is the white-privilege way of saying "I don't give a shit about slave labour".

EDIT: It's the "I don't see race" of consumerism. It's the "All Lives Matter" of consumerism.
 
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zyvorg

zyvorg

Member
Oct 25, 2017
576
Even if they were all made in the Americas, if you look hard enough you will find the rich taking advantage of workers one way or another, seen it on so many levels (hiring workers as contractors so they get 0 benefits, no wage increases in spans of 8 years, using overseas workers whenever possible and exploiting them, etc)

Just like climate change, you have to start with the man in the mirror...
 
Quellyford

Quellyford

Member
May 16, 2020
4,071
The problem is you can find something ethically wrong about almost everything you consume. If you start dwelling on it, you will go crazy. Do your best to make the world a better place, and not obsess over every purchase.

For example, I'm trying to move away from the meat industry, though I'm sure a lot of the vegan food industry has its fair share of issues. But moving from meat to vegan is probably a bigger net positive to the world than the negative effects the vegan food industry currently has. In the end, we are all ignorant and will inevitably be supporting horrible practices no matter what, so pick your battles and do your best to make the world a better place with things you can control.
 
Green Mario

Green Mario

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Oct 27, 2017
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Hayama Akito said:
rule34.png
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Oh my God lol
 
PaperSparrow

PaperSparrow

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Oct 25, 2017
1,024
It's ethically wrong, especially for something as frivolous as a console, no matter how you try to slice it.

I would say the least you can do is stay informed, push for changes in government, try to lessen your impact as much as possible, and let others know. It's hard to not feel defeated about something you personally have no direct control over, but you can still try to do something. We let corporations get away with too much. Accepting the status quo and shrugging our shoulders is not the answer.
 
Samiya

Samiya

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Nov 30, 2019
4,811
I wish this convinced more people that capitalism is a horrible anti-democratic economic system that destroys people and the world and we therefore need to overthrow it.
 
nsilvias

nsilvias

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Oct 25, 2017
23,982
the metals in most electronics are probably not ethically acquired. the whole system is a shit sandwich.
 
mentok15

mentok15

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Dec 20, 2017
7,380
Australia
Cheesecakebobby said:
I see enough of the ridiculous "no ethical consumption under capitalism" justifications from anti-vegans. Usually they shut up when I ask whether that means there's no ethical difference between paying for an Only Fans and buying child porn.
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Theres a socialist YouTube Vaush that when debating Vegangains about veganism wouldn't denounce buying child porn because "there's no ethical consumption under capitalism". Yet he still seems popular with online leftists.

themuzzotheory said:
I get a little annoyed when politics always turn into some big words and complicated concepts salad that scare away normal people, right into the hands of populism worldwide. They aren't afraid to get their hands a bit dirty, we are too worried about purity and shaming the messenger. Sure, your ivory tower must be amazing, but it isn't helping.
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Where did I use big words or complicated concepts? And if anything, at least online, its far leftists that seem to do that, writing large amounts of texts and talking theory which the average person isn't going to know or care about. The scary/sad thing is the far right seems better at appealing to "normal people".

Oh and Bernie is a populist :p

Aether said:
If it is used as a catch all "yeah, not possible, so dont even try"....yeah, then its bullshit.
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Look at the replies here, that's exactly what it is.

Wet Jimmy said:
So far, none of the alternatives tried have done nearly as good a job as capitalism of keeping most of the population out of poverty and even providing them with a reasonable level of comfort.
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The response is generally "It wast real what ever I'm advocating for" or "it'll be different this time. I have no evidence for this but trust me :) ".
 
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jblanco

jblanco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,493
Imp the Dimp said:
Just be honest and admit that your pleasure is more important to you than poor working conditions at CDPR or in China. I admit it. 🤷 Does it say something about my character? Of course it does, I'm not delusional. At the very least, you can be sure that you get straight, honest takes from me and what I say is predictive of how I act. I think there's a lot of value in that.
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Is it honest when you are at conflict with your pleasure though? We've grown more informed, and a lot of people are starting to question their habits.

Imp the Dimp said:
I see absolutely zero value in doing exactly as I do but bending over backwards to justify the unjustifiable.
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Agreed, it's dishonest, but imo that that doesn't mean we should descend into apathy. Consumer pressure can be catalyst for change.
 
Greenpaint

Greenpaint

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,902
I try to do my part by minimizing my consumption to only what I feel I need. Yes, I feel like I need a smartphone to be part of a modern society. I try to favor domestic and local products wherever possible, and I try to favor companies that try to make things better. I've made sure my yearly Co2 total is well below sustainable limits and and..

.. after a point all this vigilance becomes incredibly exhausting. If I knew for sure that my purchase was doing direct harm, I would try to do things differently. But I simply do not have 100% of the information on what is the best course of action.

I'm doing my best with what I have available, and after all the worrying about everything going on in the world, after all the stress I have from keeping my life together, yes, I am going to buy that PC upgrade (eventually, when old one stops working or something) so I won't go insane from all this stress.

Am I in the wrong? Am I an evil person? Am I unethical? I don't know. Best I can do is try my best and leave the judging to others.
 
AbsoluteZ3R0

AbsoluteZ3R0

Member
Feb 5, 2019
889
While its not completely to possible to avoid, you can still minimize it. You don't need a new phone every year or upgrade your gpu every time a new one comes out. I can understand people getting a new console every gen but if you are getting PS5, Series X, CX and a 3080, then you should feel bad.
 

Tunar

Member
May 6, 2020
50
AbsoluteZ3R0 said:
While its not completely to possible to avoid, you can still minimize it. You don't need a new phone every year or upgrade your gpu every time a new one comes out. I can understand people getting a new console every gen but if you are getting PS5, Series X, CX and a 3080, then you should feel bad.
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This 100%. I used to buy every console and upgrade my pc every 2 or 3 years for a while before coming to this realization. Now I'm only doing 1 console this gen. Least everyone can do is spend less and use whatever you have for as long as possible.
 
Laughing Banana

Laughing Banana

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,536
Bandung Indonesia
Of course its not ethical.

Moreover, since video games are not essential, anyone purchasing such things to entertain themselves in my eyes lose any right to accuse anyone else if being unethical for buying any other products. Anyone still doing so is a massive hypocrite and a selfish individual.
 
Convasse

Convasse

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Oct 26, 2017
3,828
Atlanta, GA, USA
Samiya said:
I wish this convinced more people that capitalism is a horrible anti-democratic economic system that destroys people and the world and we therefore need to overthrow it.
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I'm all for ending capitalism, but what do we replace it with? I'm not trying to play GOTCHA here, I'm trying to understand how humanity evolves from a consumptive modus operandi and I keep drawing blanks. I'm not convinced communism works either, to be clear.
 
WrenchNinja

WrenchNinja

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,754
Canada
Of course it's ethically wrong. The world has made it pretty clear within the last twenty years that the lives of Muslims aren't important.
 
IIFloodyII

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,130
Absolutely, it's something I've been thinking about quite a lot and I just feel so useless, as it's not going to stop and there's nothing I can really do about it, as people just don't care, so the mega corps really don't care. I'm not buying a next gen system unless I can make sure it wasn't built in a slave labor factory and that's not looking like a possibility.
 
Deimos

Deimos

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,793
If you wanted to be ethical you'd have to become a hermit and forage for your own food and shelter.
 
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