RennerSage

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I don't mean to demean string theorists, their obviously intelligent scholars

but I thought one of the conditions for science was that a theory has to be falsifiable (the ability to be shown false)

but String Theory can't even be experimentally verified, so isn't it just fancy math at this point?
 

Karsticles

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It's theoretical physics.

It can be falsified through empirical methods that would make the theory untenable, or we could find a better explanatory device.
 

Xe4

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Oct 25, 2017
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It's a controversial subject. Theoretical physicists and experimental will usually give two answers. Shit, two theoreticians will sometimes.

You're correct that it can't be experimentally verified at the moment, or in the near future. Both advocates and those who dislike it agree on that point.

It does explain a lot and is generally considered an extension to quantum field theory, though there is no way to be sure.

Theory is the wrong word to describe it though. It's definitely now just string hypothesis.

Though I know quite a bit about physics, string theory is way above my head. Maybe All Possible Ways could give a better answer.
 
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RennerSage

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It's a controversial subject. Theoretical physicists and experimental will usually give two answers.

You're correct that it can't be experimentally verified at the moment, or in the near future. Both advocates and those who dislike it agree on that point.

It does explain a lot and is generally considered an extension to quantum field theory, though there is no way to be sure.

Theory is the wrong word to describe it though. It's definitely now just string hypothesis
Is General Relativity considered a theory because it has been experimentally verified?...i know "theory" means something different in the scientific world than everyday common usage of the word
 

Xe4

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Oct 25, 2017
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Is General Relativity considered a theory because it has been experimentally verified?...i know "theory" means something different in the scientific world than everyday common usage of the word
General relativity is the gold standard for a theory in physics. To show why is going to take some explaining.

It came about at a time in which we were pretty certain there was quite a bit wrong with Newtonian gravity. Yet Newton's laws an extensions of them explained a whole lot. For a theory to replace it, a framework would have to be developed that not only agreed with everything in Newtonian gravity, but also explained phenomena at the time.

When Einstein first developed his theory, most physicists were pretty skeptical, and it would take a lot to overturn a theory which had been accepted as true for the previous several hundred years. But almost immediately, people realized it was far better at conforming to reality than the law of universal gravitation.

Not only could it explain everything that Newton's theory could, it also experimentally was shown to be true time and time again by predicting stuff like gravitational lensing, the perihelion advance of mercury, expanison of the universe (which Einstein himself thought wasn't real), time dilation in a gravitational field, black holes, gravitational waves, and more. All of which have been experimentally detected.

There's a reason why Popper used general relativity as a model to develop his philosophy of science. It beautifully took many risks and could've easily been proven to be wrong or incomplete, yet every experimental attempt to disprove it has actually ended up proving it even more.

As of yet, there have been no successful tests to disprove string theory, which is why it hasn't been thrown away yet, but is also why it hasn't been accepted by the physics community yet either.
 
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LorentzFactor

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Oct 25, 2017
704
Of course it is. You'd have to consider a lot of physics research (including experimental research) "not physics", if you blanch at people using the string framework. For instance, experimentalists often make use of so called "spectroscopic factors" to do their analysis, which are not physical observables at all. The better way to word this question would be to discuss the "fruitfulness" of a certain line of research (however you define it), instead of this silly gate-keeping type rhetoric. The string framework has lots of benefits and unique properties to it and has had demonstrable benefits to the rest of physics already. So my view is that let the people that are so inclined purse it.
 

Tesseract

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Nov 11, 2017
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semiclassical gravity decoheres into a state with a metric sourced in one place and another with 50% chance each. that's about where we are, if we're being experimentally honest.
 
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Xe4

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Oct 25, 2017
10,295
iirc, thoery is correct 99 something percent of the time, and law is 100% correct.
A theory is an heavily experimentally verified model to explain reality. It's the greatest form of proof available to science, and only theories gain mainstream acceptance in their respective fields. It takes many years and tons of experimental verification (and attempts to disprove it) to be accepted as a theory.

A law was is an old word to show a mathematical relationships inside of a model. The law of universal gravitation (GmM/r^2), inverse square law (I = 1/r^2), first law of thermodynamics (dE = dU - dW), and more are all examples of laws. Note the equations next to each one. Pretty much every law is tied to a mathematical equation.

A law isn't above a theory by any means. Nor does it always have to be accurate all the time. A perfect example of this is the second law of thermodynamics (dS >= dQ/T). Being a statistical law, every once in a while the change in entropy will be negative. However, the vast, vast, vast majority of the time it holds true.

The usage of law to describe mathematical relationships in nature went away in the 20th century for numerous reasons, mostly because the relationships between objects became much more intricate, often require many multiple equations to represent.

Nothing in science is absolute. Only mathematical proofs can claim to be absolutely true, and only in the framework in which it's developed. However theories are wonderful frameworks to build our knowledge of reality around.
 
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SteveWinwood

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Oct 25, 2017
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string theory can absolutely be proven incorrect through experimentation

maybe not at this minute no but that's what the future may bring

also depending on who you ask, including falsification in your definition of science can be awkward

People still argue about Karl Popper almost 100 years later
 
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RennerSage

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don't you think scientists should be looking back at ancient theories instead....

one of the things that upsets me about the Solvay Conference 1927 is that they were brilliant men

but they refused to look to Ancient Egypt for wisdom, did they not know about Ancient Egypt? with a European education they probably were never taught what Egypt was...only Greece

The%2BSolvay%2BConference%2C%2Bprobably%2Bthe%2Bmost%2Bintelligent%2Bpicture%2Bever%2Btaken%2C%2B1927%2B(2).jpg
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,227
don't you think scientists should be looking back at ancient theories instead....

one of the things that upsets me about the Solvay Conference 1927 is that they were brilliant men

but they refused to look to Ancient Egypt for wisdom, did they not know about Ancient Egypt? with a European education they probably were never taught what Egypt was...only Greece

The%2BSolvay%2BConference%2C%2Bprobably%2Bthe%2Bmost%2Bintelligent%2Bpicture%2Bever%2Btaken%2C%2B1927%2B(2).jpg
What?
 

Steel

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
18,220
don't you think scientists should be looking back at ancient theories instead....

one of the things that upsets me about the Solvay Conference 1927 is that they were brilliant men

but they refused to look to Ancient Egypt for wisdom, did they not know about Ancient Egypt? with a European education they probably were never taught what Egypt was...only Greece

The%2BSolvay%2BConference%2C%2Bprobably%2Bthe%2Bmost%2Bintelligent%2Bpicture%2Bever%2Btaken%2C%2B1927%2B(2).jpg

What are you even talking about?
 

SteveWinwood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,741
USA USA USA
don't you think scientists should be looking back at ancient theories instead....

one of the things that upsets me about the Solvay Conference 1927 is that they were brilliant men

but they refused to look to Ancient Egypt for wisdom, did they not know about Ancient Egypt? with a European education they probably were never taught what Egypt was...only Greece

The%2BSolvay%2BConference%2C%2Bprobably%2Bthe%2Bmost%2Bintelligent%2Bpicture%2Bever%2Btaken%2C%2B1927%2B(2).jpg
im so confused

is this a time cube thing
 

julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
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Oct 27, 2017
35,756
don't you think scientists should be looking back at ancient theories instead....

one of the things that upsets me about the Solvay Conference 1927 is that they were brilliant men

but they refused to look to Ancient Egypt for wisdom, did they not know about Ancient Egypt? with a European education they probably were never taught what Egypt was...only Greece

The%2BSolvay%2BConference%2C%2Bprobably%2Bthe%2Bmost%2Bintelligent%2Bpicture%2Bever%2Btaken%2C%2B1927%2B(2).jpg

Just want to say i love me some swirly bokeh
 

Ziltoidia 9

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Oct 25, 2017
6,152
Its a working theory that needs to be tested, however the idea of little vibrating strings making up everything is hard to test because I doubt we can get a close enough image of a particle to see if it is true. At least not for a while.
 

Masoyama

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don't you think scientists should be looking back at ancient theories instead....

one of the things that upsets me about the Solvay Conference 1927 is that they were brilliant men

but they refused to look to Ancient Egypt for wisdom, did they not know about Ancient Egypt? with a European education they probably were never taught what Egypt was...only Greece


Holy hell, how high are you?
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,227
This line of thought reminds me of a random guy in the mall who tried to convince me that the ancient Egyptians had disproven General Relativity.
 

Deleted member 9237

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Yes of course it's considered physics and there is nothing fundamentally untestable about string theory. Also note that most theoretical physics will never get tested, or implemented.

Anyway, here are two blog entries on string theory that I enjoy:
Sometimes I believe in string theory. Then I wake up.

Why not string theory?

At some point theoretical physics and pure mathematics are almost one and the same.
Eh, I don't think is true for the majority of theoretical physics. Even if you mostly do math all day, it's not the same as doing math research (again in most cases)
 
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RennerSage

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Im asking why did they refuse to look to Ancient Egypt for wisdom
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,905
Portland, OR
don't you think scientists should be looking back at ancient theories instead....

one of the things that upsets me about the Solvay Conference 1927 is that they were brilliant men

but they refused to look to Ancient Egypt for wisdom, did they not know about Ancient Egypt? with a European education they probably were never taught what Egypt was...only Greece

The%2BSolvay%2BConference%2C%2Bprobably%2Bthe%2Bmost%2Bintelligent%2Bpicture%2Bever%2Btaken%2C%2B1927%2B(2).jpg
You know those animus tombs in Assassin's Creed Origins aren't real, right?
 

Ziltoidia 9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,152
It's not possible to image a lot of things but we know they're there.

I of course am not well versed in it, but I think its main obstacle is proving different dimensions. I've read that some of the math would take 11 dimensions to work. That the strings themselves are supposed to be 1 dimensional.

I think I should have more clear on them having to also prove that they are strings vibrating at different frequencies, and not just that we can't get close enough to get glimpse at one of them. The shape could be anything, and it doesn't matter. The real theory is behind the vibrating string aspect.
 

Unaha-Closp

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Oct 25, 2017
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Physicists are looking for a Grand Unified Theory that makes sense of the Micro and the Macro Universe. They tootle about in maths saying this that and the other wacky shit all in the hope of being correct. Like all scientists have done since there was scientists. String Theory is one such tootle. They'll keep at it until proven true or false or more likely something else will come along and supercede it. They all just want to work it out. Trouble is the micro laws do not play nice with the macro laws - so they look for new laws. Also Maths is Physics. Physics is Maths. They are one and the same and you can't do Physics without Maths. You can do Maths but you'll be working out Physics shit while you do it.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,826
iirc, thoery is correct 99 something percent of the time, and law is 100% correct.
A theory is an explanation for a phenomenon. A law is a statement about a phenomenon. Gravitational theory explains how gravity works (to the best of our knowledge.) Kirchoff's voltage law states an observation that in a closed electrical loop, the voltage of the loop is always zero.
 

Imperfected

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Nov 9, 2017
11,737
I've never heard someone call a branch of physics "fancy mathematics" thinking it was demeaning before.

To whit, as my college Physics professor told me:

Every chemist will tell you biology is just degenerate chemistry. Every physicist will tell you chemistry is just degenerate physics. Every mathematician will tell you physics is just degenerate math.

There is absolutely no lack of respect for "pure mathematics" in physical theory.
 

Lafazar

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Oct 25, 2017
1,592
Bern, Switzerland
Super short version: General Relativity and Quantum Theory are two of the most successful physical theories of all time. They have been confirmed in hundreds of thousands of experiments and deliver correct results for the overwhelming majority of them.

Now this is crucial: Both theories are just a MODEL of nature and reality. Our current best DESCRIPTION of nature and reality. They are NOT reality/nature itself. This is evident, because there are some cases where one theory delivers the correct result, but the other does not and vice versa. They both are a good description of reality, but NEITHER of them can be a complete description of reality, because they both have obvious cases where they are wrong/deliver the wrong result when comparing calculation with reality.

String theory is only one of several attempts to make one single (mathematical) model of reality that will deliver the correct result in ALL cases. It is not even finished yet, but it looks currently the most promising (admittedly because most theoretical physicists are working on it) that they may complete it and get it working. Its unclear what this means for our understanding of the universe. I take the pragmatic viewpoint that it is just the most simple mathematical description of reality that works in all cases and has no deeper meaning. String theory, if it ever works is not reality itself, just a better description of reality than our current theories.

A theory is an explanation for a phenomenon. A law is a statement about a phenomenon. Gravitational theory explains how gravity works (to the best of our knowledge.) Kirchoff's voltage law states an observation that in a closed electrical loop, the voltage of the loop is always zero.
Ever seen this? Kirchhoff's law is a really bad example, because it is NOT correct in cases of induced currents:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqjl-qRy71w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bUWcy8HwpM

Better Quality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGQbA2jwkWI&t=34m50s
Proof: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5be3zpj_eCY
 
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Masoyama

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Ever seen this? Kirchhoff's law is a really bad example, because it is NOT correct in cases of induced currents:

It is a straw-mans argument to say that KVL does not apply to induced current case. KVL does not try to address this problem, it is very well defined under which conditions does KVL and KCL work. Mainly, it is for circuits that dont have electromagnetic field fluctuations or field outside the circuit. In part thats why we analyze transmission lines using the telegrapher equations and model transformers using finite element analysis. Removing the assumptions of a statement and then pointing out how the low doesn't work is simply wrong and unfair.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,694
well weren't the Egyptians highly advanced for their time

I have heard claims that the Greeks stole all their intellectual accomplishments from Egypt
While I cannot speak to the Egyptian's general knowledge, I can speak with respect to their mathematical accomplishments (having studied mathematical history as part of a mathematics degree) and say that from this perspective the bolded is just not accurate. The Egyptians had a mathematical system and did have some notable accomplishments; particularly, they were aware of how to find the root of linear equations and quadratic equations, and had a very limited understanding of how to solve certain geometric problems. While in a modern form these are relatively trivial problems, ancient civilisations had to deal with an incredibly inefficient numeration system (both in representation, and 'missing' numbers, for example typically only expressing unit fractions except, oddly, for two-thirds), an unwillingness to deal with certain numbers (e.g. the concept of a 'negative' number), and not being able to do symbolic mathematics. Their solutions to these problems were not 'proofs' but were instead demonstrating an algorithmic approach to solving problems by demonstrating a number of examples.

The Greeks, however, were not only substantially more adept in mathematics, but their work has laid the cornerstone of the development of mathematics as we know it today. Importantly, the Greeks were incredibly knowledgeable of the difference between approximating something and proving something, and it's largely due to the Greeks that we owe this contribution. Although the Egyptians (and Babylonians) may have had an awareness of certain results prior to the Greeks, the Greeks were able to actually prove the truth of the statement rather than to simply demonstrate a heuristic approach to problems. Although it's not clear what the first proof actually was, mathematicians such as Thales, Eudoxus, and Pythagorus are all known (via historical documents) to have been able to demonstrate 'proofs'. The "Theorem of Thales" serves as an early example of a result we know was capable of being proven by the Greeks. The problems the Greeks encountered, and their incredibly clever solutions to these problems, are considerably more advanced than the mathematics of most Ancient Civilisations. The Greeks were aware of the difficulties which arose when working with infinitesimals and infinity, and developed many clever approaches to resolve these. The Greeks' discovery of incommensurable magnitudes (the Pythagoreans initially believed the magnitudes of any two line segments numbers could be written as the integer multiple of some unit until one of them proved that in fact this is not the case, it is suspected by proving the irrationality of the square root of two) and Eudoxus's solution of how to resolve this with the theory of proportions is surprisingly close (considering the development of mathematics at the time) to how real numbers are (or rather, can be) considered via Dedekind Cuts today and shows a clear sophistication which was (as far as we are aware) simply not present in Egyptian mathematics.

The most clear demonstration of the sophistication of the Greeks over any preceding (or indeed many civilisations later than them) civilisation is Euclid's "The Elements". Not only was their sophistication in realising the necessity of certain axioms to avoid the problem of infinite descent in creating definitions (even if, from a modern perspective, his definitions aren't truly definitions) and proving results, but it contributes not only a great deal of geometric results but also a lot of number theoretic results too (primarily in Books 7 to 9 which contain not only the Euclidean algorithm which is still used today to find the greatest common divisors of two numbers, and his proof of the infinitude of primes [knowledgeable of the issues infinity brings and skeptical of it, he phrases this by stating the number of primes exceeds any given magnitude] still cited as one the best and slickest examples of a mathematical proof). The structure of The Elements was designed to introduce axioms (at the beginning), and then introduce definitions, and begin stating and immediately proving results using only the axioms and what has been proven before to justify each step of the proof of a result. This text was absolutely crucial in guiding mathematics, and was even up to the 20th century, the book from which all would begin the study of mathematics due to its incredible structure and foresight. The sophistication of certain arguments, particularly the method of exhaustion (which, loosely speaking, was a way for them to deal with proofs involving limits and convergence) greatly exceeds anything we've seen by the Egyptians to date. Archimedes too had some incredibly deep mathematical results, the significance of which was not known until recent times simply because of the sophistication of the results. In fact, we now know (via private correspondence only discovered in the early 1900s) that he found many of his results by working with infinitesimal magnitudes and infinities but did not publish this at any point because it 'wasn't mathematics' due to the lack of rigour; such manipulations were not done by European mathematicians and in particular physicists until the 16th and 17th century as Calculus began to be developed). His working with these infinitesimals, over a thousand years before others began to develop calculus or consider the manipulation of infinitesimals, alone puts Greek mathematics at a much more advanced state than the Egyptians or earlier civilisations.

Even considering only their development of mathematics, let alone their development in other areas, it is absolutely not true that the Greeks stole all of their intellectual accomplishments from Egypt; in mathematics alone, their accomplishments cannot be understated.

EDIT: However, I will say that even not restricted to mathematics, and considering physics instead, I would be highly, highly surprised to learn the Egyptians were more advanced than the Greeks or that the Greeks' discoveries derive rather easily from the Egyptian's work. Ptolemy's work in creating geocentric astronomical models (although wrong for obvious reasons) immediately springs to mind as one of the defining astronomical models until the 16th and 17th century.
 
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RennerSage

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Oct 28, 2017
318
While I cannot speak to the Egyptian's general knowledge, I can speak with respect to their mathematical accomplishments (having studied mathematical history as part of a mathematics degree) and say that from this perspective the bolded is just not accurate. The Egyptians had a mathematical system and did have some notable accomplishments; particularly, they were aware of how to find the root of linear equations and quadratic equations, and had a very limited understanding of how to solve certain geometric problems. While in a modern form these are relatively trivial problems, ancient civilisations had to deal with an incredibly inefficient numeration system (both in representation, and 'missing' numbers, for example typically only expressing unit fractions except, oddly, for two-thirds), an unwillingness to deal with certain numbers (e.g. the concept of a 'negative' number), and not being able to do symbolic mathematics. Their solutions to these problems were not 'proofs' but were instead demonstrating an algorithmic approach to solving problems by demonstrating a number of examples.

The Greeks, however, were not only substantially more adept in mathematics, but their work has laid the cornerstone of the development of mathematics as we know it today. Importantly, the Greeks were incredibly knowledgeable of the difference between approximating something and proving something, and it's largely due to the Greeks that we owe this contribution. Although the Egyptians (and Babylonians) may have had an awareness of certain results prior to the Greeks, the Greeks were able to actually prove the truth of the statement rather than to simply demonstrate a heuristic approach to problems. Although it's not clear what the first proof actually was, mathematicians such as Thales, Eudoxus, and Pythagorus are all known (via historical documents) to have been able to demonstrate 'proofs'. The "Theorem of Thales" serves as an early example of a result we know was capable of being proven by the Greeks. The problems the Greeks encountered, and their incredibly clever solutions to these problems, are considerably more advanced than the mathematics of most Ancient Civilisations. The Greeks were aware of the difficulties which arose when working with infinitesimals and infinity, and developed many clever approaches to resolve these. The Greeks' discovery of incommensurable magnitudes (the Pythagoreans initially believed the magnitudes of any two line segments numbers could be written as the integer multiple of some unit until one of them proved that in fact this is not the case, it is suspected by proving the irrationality of the square root of two) and Eudoxus's solution of how to resolve this with the theory of proportions is surprisingly close (considering the development of mathematics at the time) to how real numbers are (or rather, can be) considered via Dedekind Cuts today and shows a clear sophistication which was (as far as we are aware) simply not present in Egyptian mathematics.

The most clear demonstration of the sophistication of the Greeks over any preceding (or indeed many civilisations later than them) civilisation is Euclid's "The Elements". Not only was their sophistication in realising the necessity of certain axioms to avoid the problem of infinite descent in creating definitions (even if, from a modern perspective, his definitions aren't truly definitions) and proving results, but it contributes not only a great deal of geometric results but also a lot of number theoretic results too (primarily in Books 7 to 9 which contain not only the Euclidean algorithm which is still used today to find the greatest common divisors of two numbers, and his proof of the infinitude of primes [knowledgeable of the issues infinity brings and skeptical of it, he phrases this by stating the number of primes exceeds any given magnitude] still cited as one the best and slickest examples of a mathematical proof). The structure of The Elements was designed to introduce axioms (at the beginning), and then introduce definitions, and begin stating and immediately proving results using only the axioms and what has been proven before to justify each step of the proof of a result. This text was absolutely crucial in guiding mathematics, and was even up to the 20th century, the book from which all would begin the study of mathematics due to its incredible structure and foresight. The sophistication of certain arguments, particularly the method of exhaustion (which, loosely speaking, was a way for them to deal with proofs involving limits and convergence) greatly exceeds anything we've seen by the Egyptians to date. Archimedes too had some incredibly deep mathematical results, the significance of which was not known until recent times simply because of the sophistication of the results. In fact, we now know (via private correspondence only discovered in the early 1900s) that he found many of his results by working with infinitesimal magnitudes and infinities but did not publish this at any point because it 'wasn't mathematics' due to the lack of rigour; such manipulations were not done by European mathematicians and in particular physicists until the 16th and 17th century as Calculus began to be developed). His working with these infinitesimals, over a thousand years before others began to develop calculus or consider the manipulation of infinitesimals, alone puts Greek mathematics at a much more advanced state than the Egyptians or earlier civilisations.

Even considering only their development of mathematics, let alone their development in other areas, it is absolutely not true that the Greeks stole all of their intellectual accomplishments from Egypt; in mathematics alone, their accomplishments cannot be understated.

In my mathematics class I had a teacher that said a similar thing to what you said and he was accused of being "Eurocentric"
how would you respond to that
 

Lafazar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,592
Bern, Switzerland
It is a straw-mans argument to say that KVL does not apply to induced current case. KVL does not try to address this problem, it is very well defined under which conditions does KVL and KCL work. Mainly, it is for circuits that dont have electromagnetic field fluctuations or field outside the circuit. In part thats why we analyze transmission lines using the telegrapher equations and model transformers using finite element analysis. Removing the assumptions of a statement and then pointing out how the low doesn't work is simply wrong and unfair.
It's great and wonderful that you do know this, but way too many people do not and try to use Kirchhoff's law even in when it is not applicable and wonder why they get the wrong result. I'm just saying that Faradays Law would have been a better example because it requires WAY less assumptions.
 

Imperfected

Member
Nov 9, 2017
11,737
OP has a question about string theory, and then proceeds to derail his own thread with Greeks stealing from Egyptians.

Best guess: he's a sociology student who was forced to take a physics class as part of his core and he's letting us bask in the salt.

Second best guess: narcotics.