Is there a Hyperfocus (and Exaggeration) of Russian Intervention? (And as a result a downplaying of other issues especially US-based ones)

[Iloelemen]

So I was watching this Video on Daria


I got interested in the channel so I explored the other videos then I found this.



I got suspicious, afraid. He was someone who formerly worked at Russia Today and was someone who lived in Russia.

But some of the points lingered, like is Russia used as a sorta scapegoat for the election of Trump and to prevent self-reflection?

Then I saw how Black Lives Matter was connected to Russia. And then there was that Resetera thread which questioned if Jeremy Corbyn was a Russian mole (this is the thread Is Jeremy Corbyn a Russian puppet?). And then I saw the delegitimization of the French Yellow Vest movement by linking it to Russia.

I thought "Hmm, could Russia be used to undermine social justice movements?"

So, is there Up-playing and Hyperfocus of Russia's reach or was I duped into watching Russian Propaganda?

Of course it's obvious that Russian influence to stir mayhem is real BUT, this is a question of Focus.

mod edit: don't use info tags for that kinda thing

 

[OwOtacon]

If I see one more person on twitter say that trans rights are a "distraction" from Russia, I might just delete my account.

Yes, there was Russian infiltration of the election, and embedded government corruption. But solely blaming Russia is a security blanket that allows people to get away with not admitting that American institutions and laws are far more responsible for the current state of the administration.

Fight the real enemy.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

I would hope this has sunk in pretty broadly by this point. Maybe Pod Save American are still on about it but jfc, Trump is the symptom not the disease.

 

[Zoc]

I've never heard anyone credible say that Trump or Brexit outright wouldn't have happened without Russia. Russian meddling gets a lot of attention, but I don't think it's that much of a distraction from other problems.

 

[Deleted member 1476]

I think that there should be no doubt that Russia meddled, but that doesn't mean grandma isn't racist.

 

[Kernel]

I only think it's a distraction from other foreign influence like KSA or Israel.

What Russia is doing isn't too much different from other countries. More brazen and aggressive perhaps but the concept is the same.

 

[Planet]

Well documented US interventions in foreign politics and voting all over the globe in the past century dwarf anything Russia might have done in that area by several magnitudes. It's like Al Capone calling a 10yo with his hand on the cookie glass a criminal.

 

[VectorPrime]

Due to the margins being as thin as they were it can be safely said that without Russian assistance Trump does not win.

 

[PunchyMalone]

How I've understood it, is that they're not creating the subjects of these arguments. Those divides already existed. They just reframe the context around them and add fuel to the fire. For example: the anti-vax thread the other day being pushed by Russian trolls. They were working both sides of the "argument" to create a narrative and get people fighting amongst themselves. Sure there was already an argument there, but it's no coincidence I was seeing dozens of memes against anti-vaxxers for a week straight, and then that report drops and I'm hearing about it in the news.

And just like that, I suddenly really want to play MGS 2 again.

 

[Sinfamy]

It's literally "wait and see".
Talk about other more important issues while the investigations are ongoing.

 

[Deleted member 32561]

Russia influences everyone just as America influences everyone, just as every power does. Blaming Russia for our ills without examining what we here in America have done to negatively effect ourselves solves nothing. Trump didn't win only because of Russia. The tea party or alt right did not rise all because of Russia. It's because our country was already sick.

Now, does this mean Russia isn't trying to cause Americans to infight? No! Again, of course they are. But they're going to even if we kick up a big fuss about it, just as we will continue meddling in other countries we consider rivals or even allies to benefit us to the detriment of cooperation in those countries.

All we can do is be vigilant with cybersecurity to prevent hacks. Outside of that, Russia can't do anything but spread one side of an argument or another that already existed. And with that, the real opponent is our fellow countrymen suggesting poor ideas.

 

[fontguy]

Russia is a shitposter.

That their bullshit was and is so effective against us is an indictment of our politics and institutions.

 

[Kernel]

Russia is a shitposter

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It's a crime syndicate masquerading as a government.

Shit posting is the least that they do.

 

[Powdered Egg]

I had to laugh and roll my eyes at articles giving Russia blame for "sowing racial divisions". Black people were apparently happy-go-lucky until Russia tricked us into voicing complaints.

 

[Deleted member 15440]

i'll be happy if it leads to more attention being put on the influence that countries like israel, KSA, and UAE have on american politics. all of those vastly outstrip any russian campaign and they've been doing it for decades.

i don't anticipate this will happen though.

 

[BrassDragon]

I had to laugh and roll my eyes at articles giving Russia blame for "sowing racial divisions". Black people were apparently happy-go-lucky until Russia tricked us into voicing complaints.

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That's not the claim. The idea is that a foreign intelligence service finds pressure points, like institutional and deeply ingrained racism, and stokes the flames further. Propagandists don't simply say 'hey, you should hate more on each other', they say 'look how violent the Black Lives Matters movement is, you can't reason with these people'. They don't create fissures, they widen them.

The biggest problem with active measures is that individuals always think they're too smart to fall it. People would rather deny or downplay the threat than accept that we're all vulnerable to misinformation, distortions and persistent reinforcement of our fears and biases.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

Russia is a shitposter.

That their bullshit was and is so effective against us is an indictment of our politics and institutions.

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russia is a shit poster with kompromat on all the mods

 

[AstronaughtE]

Russia is a shitposter.

That their bullshit was and is so effective against us is an indictment of our politics and institutions.

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Russia is that girl who convinced her boyfriend to kill himself via text.

 

[ty_hot]

Anyone that suggests that Russia did not do all the things the Dems say they did instantly become a Russian spy, so, yeah, people are using "it's the Russians!" for everything and that is an issue.

 

[Deleted member 78]

I only think it's a distraction from other foreign influence like KSA or Israel.

What Russia is doing isn't too much different from other countries. More brazen and aggressive perhaps but the concept is the same.

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Including the United States.

I mean, we have coups and dictatorships sponsored by the US and terrorist attacks by the CIA that are all well documented. Israel is also very problematic with the influence that government has on the United States, but I'll steer clear lest I be accused of antisemitism. Suffice to say and in the words of Norman Finklestein, it's a "lunatic state" that has the full backing of the most powerful nation on this planet. Including all your favourite politicians (Harris, Pelosi, Schumer). These are things that always get hand-waved away and never addressed.

I noticed the thread on Obama and his gross record got closed almost immediately and that is a problem in my opinion. But I totally get it. People of colour who live outside of the United States don't actually matter, or don't matter enough. I see people say things like "But Obama does get criticised for this!", and that's not really true. Perhaps some articles here and there but for the most part these things never enter into the mind of the general populace. Conversations aren't had. It'll be some memes or how much they miss him over the turd in office now.

Regarding Russia, absolutely there is exaggeration. Conversations on these boards are very binary when it comes to this issue with posters being outright called Russian shills/bots/trolls. Hysteria is a better word.

That Corbyn nonsense is utterly ridiculous.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

"I got suspicious, afraid. He was someone who formerly worked at Russia Today and was someone who lived in Russia. "

The eyeroll goes here.

Still, this is a good opportunity to show heavy focus that is thus:

That we've never had this alarming amount of active measures in most of the world before, and earlier attempts at it failed yet it worked now.

That the dopamine hits that come from the validation that comes baked in has been so powerful as to be hard to wean off of or the basis for entire worldviews of some individuals.

That it's such a complete attack on multiple national securities, the liberal democratic order, the rule of law both internationally and within national borders, and no shots were fired.

That we got REAL complacent and that complacency was an invitation from gangsters who have alloyed with aggresive espionage services.

That new technology was far, far underestimated in its potency and world-changing power...except by the above mafia states.

That we thought ourselves as a whole on a Star Trek-like course to a misery-lite new era...only to run smack into the face of old enemies reborn.

That we are dealing with desperate, sociopathic, powerful individuals who see sparking a moral atrocity to buy time or favor (that's for you OwOtacon cuz that's how the people doing these percieve it).

That we are clearly entering a new era that has not yet taken form and the decisions being made or not made now are going to blaze the trail into the future in differing potential directions and it's all very murky and very intimidating.

 

[Deleted member 6230]

That's not the claim. The idea is that a foreign intelligence service finds pressure points, like institutional and deeply ingrained racism, and stokes the flames further. Propagandists don't simply say 'hey, you should hate more on each other', they say 'look how violent the Black Lives Matters movement is, you can't reason with these people'. They don't create fissures, they widen them.

The biggest problem with active measures is that individuals always think they're too smart to fall it. People would rather deny or downplay the threat than accept that we're all vulnerable to misinformation, distortions and persistent reinforcement of our fears and biases.

Click to shrink...

I've seen people on this forum argue that black activists were duped by russians

 

[GiantBreadbug]

Among certain types of people it's absolutely reaching McCarthy levels of hysteria. But I think by and large it's just an insular thing contained within a very obnoxious part of the Democratic electorate.

 

[Kernel]

I've seen people on this forum argue that black activists were duped by russians

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Well that did happen to an extent as there were fake black activist pages.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/06/26/us/russian-trolls-exploit-philando-castiles-death/index.html

 

[AmFreak]

Yes, threads here are full with it.

 

[Iloelemen]

I've seen people on this forum argue that black activists were duped by russians

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I've seen people argue that the French yellow vest movement was Russia.

 

[Rilakkuma Fanatic]

Well documented US interventions in foreign politics and voting all over the globe in the past century dwarf anything Russia might have done in that area by several magnitudes. It's like Al Capone calling a 10yo with his hand on the cookie glass a criminal.

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Siri, what is Afghanistan, the Iron Curtain, North Korea, Latin America, Ukraine etc?

Also, I'm kind of done giving you the benefit of the doubt OP. The defence of certain leftists basically boil down to 1) 'wow you think Russia is responsible for EVERYTHING' and 2) 'the US is just as bad if not worse uwu', neither of which are good faith arguments.

 

[ibyea]

Yes and no. No in that Russia did provoke elements in US society in order to destabilize it, and some aspects of it succeeded. Yes in that it has overshadowed relevant conversations on US society, and made people cheer the FBI a little too much for my liking.

 

[Buckle]

Considering just how much shit and people (in particular politicians) Russia has been found to be tied to, no, I think its warranted.

They should be considered a major threat. You can focus on more than one thing/issue at a time and Russia shouldn't be allowed to slip under anyone's radar ever again.

 

[Pooh]

Basically we've got a lot of fucked up issues, and Russia is exploiting them to sow division and undermine democracy by pushing people apart.

It doesn't mean we don't have issues. But it also doesn't mean Russia is blameless for exploiting them.

 

[Pwnz]

Considering just how much shit and people (in particular politicians) Russia has been found to be tied to, no, I think its warranted.

They should be considered a major threat. You can focus on more than one thing/issue at a time and Russia shouldn't be allowed to slip under anyone's radar ever again.

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Agreed. Republicans are complicit in Russian sabotage. Russia is not our friend.

 

[Kirblar]

So, is there Up-playing and Hyperfocus of Russia's reach or was I duped into watching Russian Propaganda?

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Very likely the latter, if they used to work for RT, because RT is literally a Russian propaganda network interested in downplaying their efforts.

"I got suspicious, afraid. He was someone who formerly worked at Russia Today and was someone who lived in Russia. "

The eyeroll goes here.

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RT is a propaganda network. Not a legitimate news agency. So yes, anyone who has that in their history or who frequents it as a willing guest is going to be given the side-eye, just as employment at Fox News or willingly going on Laura Ingraham or Tucker Carlson's show would. There's absolutely no reason that statement should warrant an eyeroll.

I've seen people on this forum argue that black activists were duped by russians

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Because this literally happened. https://www.buzzfeednews.com/articl...ans-were-tricked-into-working-for-russia-they

 

[jontin]

This thread is going to be crazy.

Russia is a boogeyman right now, no matter their actual involvement. It'll just be that much more difficult to see where they're actually involved.

 

[Iloelemen]

Exhibit A: Resetera Thread https://www.resetera.com/threads/is-jeremy-corbyn-a-russian-puppet.63588/

 

[Deleted member 78]

Siri, what is Afghanistan, the Iron Curtain, North Korea, Latin America, Ukraine etc?

Also, I'm kind of done giving you the benefit of the doubt OP. The defence of certain leftists basically boil down to 1) 'wow you think Russia is responsible for EVERYTHING' and 2) 'the US is just as bad if not worse uwu', neither of which are good faith arguments.

Click to shrink...

Burying your head in the sand is always the best defence.

I'm waiting for "whataboutism" to drop next!

 

[ShortNasty]

Exhibit A: Resetera Thread https://www.resetera.com/threads/is-jeremy-corbyn-a-russian-puppet.63588/

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The first few posts in that thread are people either ignoring the questions (because it's stupid), or saying "no". So that's Exhibit Nothing: The Nothing. Also, in regards to the yellow vest situation, I feel like there were reports that some of the French opposition (Le Pen) had been receiving Russian cash a few years ago. So people wondering if the Yellow Vests were connected is not a strange thing.

 

[Iloelemen]

The first few posts in that thread are people either ignoring the questions (because it's stupid), or saying "no". So that's Exhibit Nothing: The Nothing. Also, in regards to the yellow vest situation, I feel like there were reports that some of the French opposition (Le Pen) had been receiving Russian cash a few years ago. So people wondering if the Yellow Vests were connected is not a strange thing.

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I mean, the fact that the thread was even made in the first place warrants an Exhibit A to be honest.
As to the Yellow vests, there were posters more focused on Russia than on the issues themselves.

 

[Iloelemen]

Exhibit B: James Gunn connecting Russia to Bernie Sanders (He's not really wrong, but, it's not like He was the only democratic candidate who Russia used)








Exhibit C: This Lovett or Leave It Podcast (a show starring one of the writers for Obama and Clinton) Episode https://art19.com/shows/lovett-or-leave-it/episodes/3b937354-a368-406d-8cdb-b883463cfe81
This episodes features Professor and Black Lives Matter Organizer Melina Abdullah. Listen what she has to say about Russia at around 13:00

 

[Rilakkuma Fanatic]

Burying your head in the sand is always the best defence.

I'm waiting for "whataboutism" to drop next!

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I'm not the one stanning for Assad and Maduro boo, I'm living my best life.

 

[Deleted member 19066]

I appreciate the Daria vid but I don't think that dude actually read Catcher in the Rye.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

Siri, what is Afghanistan, the Iron Curtain, North Korea, Latin America, Ukraine etc?

Also, I'm kind of done giving you the benefit of the doubt OP. The defence of certain leftists basically boil down to 1) 'wow you think Russia is responsible for EVERYTHING' and 2) 'the US is just as bad if not worse uwu', neither of which are good faith arguments.

Click to shrink...

I think Siri might tell you that america sponsored a coup in Afghanistan to try and draw the soviets in. By the same token North Korea wanted some international help so they could depose the american backed regime in Korea which was literally lousy with Japanese collaborators.
Latin America you're going to have to give more details. I googled "Russian interventions in latin america" and couldn't find anything.
The Iron Curtain was absolutely a violation of Westphalian sovereignty but the US has killed more people in Latin America then the Soviets did in their interventions in their European satellites

This is not a defense of the USSR, it was an illegitimate authoritarian regime playing at being socialist. However acting like America' does not dwarf it in body count or ambition in foreign intervention is naivete and not much more.

Like Crimea is bad but between Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya put it in proper context.

 

[Kirblar]

Given that america sponsored a coup in Afghanistan to try and draw the soviets in. By the same token North Korea wanted some international help so they could depose the american backed regime in Korea which was literally lousy with Japanese collaborators.
Latin America you're going to have to give more details. I googled "Russian interventions in latin america" and couldn't find anything.
The Iron Curtain was absolutely a violation of Westphalian sovereignty but the US has killed more people in Latin America then the Soviets did in their interventions in their European satellites

This is not a defense of the USSR, it was an illegitimate authoritarian regime playing at being socialist. However acting like America' does not dwarf it in body count or ambition in foreign intervention is naivete and not much more.

Like Crimea is bad but between Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and Libya it's put in proper context.

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Crimea is actively a blatant expansionist landgrab in ways those others are not. Motivations matter.

 

[Equippedwithtowel]

Crimea is actively a blatant expansionist landgrab in ways those others are not. Motivations matter.

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I fail to see why protecting ethnic Russians in Crimea is a less legitimate superficial excuse then inventing weapons of mass destruction to go kill a half million people in Iraq

 

[Kernel]

I fail to see why protecting ethnic Russians in Crimea is a less legitimate superficial excuse then inventing weapons of mass destruction to go kill a half million people in Iraq

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Protecting ethnic Russians?

You mean annexing a foreign country?

 

[Iloelemen]

Siri, what is Afghanistan, the Iron Curtain, North Korea, Latin America, Ukraine etc?

Also, I'm kind of done giving you the benefit of the doubt OP. The defence of certain leftists basically boil down to 1) 'wow you think Russia is responsible for EVERYTHING' and 2) 'the US is just as bad if not worse uwu', neither of which are good faith arguments.

Click to shrink...

Well you know, I live in a former colony of the US and we're still still suffering from the negative effects brought by US colonialism, US support and US intervention (looking at you Marcos). At the same time, we are currently being fucked over by Chinese imperialism which by proxy is very connected to Russia. Thanks Duterte for bowing down to the whims of the Chinese government!

 

[Kitsunelaine]

I mean, the fact that the thread was even made in the first place warrants an Exhibit A to be honest.
As to the Yellow vests, there were posters more focused on Russia than on the issues themselves.

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this is like saying that the fact that i made a thread that stated that cheescake is cake means everyone on Era believes that cheesecake is cake or that my opinion on cheesecake has merit in the context of Era at all

you're not slick

 

[Pwnz]

Guess we better give El Paso and Brownsville to Mexico because of their demographic you guys. It's the right thing to do.

 

[Iloelemen]

this is like saying that the fact that i made a thread that stated that cheescake is cake means everyone on ERA believes that cheesecake is cake

you're not slick

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Didn't say everyone on Era believed Corbyn's a russian mole, I used it as an example of something existing.

 

[Kitsunelaine]

Didn't say everyone on Era believed Corbyn's a russian mole.

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my point is that fucking anybody can make a thread

want exhibit A?

you're posting in it

 

[Kirblar]

I fail to see why protecting ethnic Russians in Crimea is a less legitimate superficial excuse then inventing weapons of mass destruction to go kill a half million people in Iraq

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The superficial reasons aren't what's being discussed. There were people in the Bush admin who legitimately thought it was a good idea! (They were delusional, of course.)

Not an iota of that is present for the Ukraine invasion.