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marrec

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,775
I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding most people have about the scope of Russian influence on the internet. The efforts of the IRA were rather limited and their reach reflects these limitations.

However, foreign intervention in US Politics isn't limited to Russian internet campaigns. NRA infiltration, Manafort's efforts, etc
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
The Crimea thing is literally the justification Hitler used to expand that started world war II. You know how many wars would happen if every country in the world annexed territories that had ethnic majorities that matched their own? The whole world system falls apart. You can say that won't happen except it is happening in slow motion. Once the US hegemony declines China is going for Taiwan and Russia is eyeing several more territories.

Cool. Maybe you could go back and adress my actual point intended of assuming that I think the actions in Crimea were okay and immidiately jumping down my throat.

This is the next step in apologist behavior for American hegemony tho: "sure America isn't perfect but if we decline China and Russia are gonna be so much worse". Despite America's recent political dysfunction we're not even close to a handover in structural power yet. I'll keep criticizing our hegemon thank you v much.
 

Deleted member 41638

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 3, 2018
1,164
Yes yes and yes. I wish the media slowed the fuck down on Russia stuff, if we had an hour segment each week on the state of the Russia investigation that would be enough. It's just proof that the news media is more interested in drama than actual news about everyday Americans. There's enough shit going on in the US to report on, we don't need to hear about every alleged leak or new minor detail of the Russia investigation.
 

KingK

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,859
It's... complicated. Like you said, the Russian interference and assistance to Trump is real and impactful. I don't think it should at all be ignored and everyone, including the president, needs to be removed and held accountable or it will keep happening and get worse.

But you have bad faith actors on both sides of the debate here.

You have people trying to downplay the effects of interference to boost their own agenda, whether that be pro-Trump, anti-democrat, or the weird/misguided lefties who reflexively defend anyone opposed to the West (and are skeptical of US security state for good reason) and for some reason still try to defend Russia even though it's a crony capitalist kleptocracy now.

On the other side, you have the more establishment Democrats and liberals who overplay the issue, or rather try to pin all blame on that instead of reflecting on their own failures. The DLC, Clintonian consensus in the party had utterly failed and is crumbling for reasons that have nothing to do with Russia, but party leadership doesn't want to change or piss off donors by embracing the shift in the left. So they bury their heads in the sand and deflect everything to Russia in the hopes they can go back the old status quo, which is in fact now dead.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,383
Personally, I think these core issues that are supposedly being drowned out have received more focus than it has in decades. It's a reason why we've had more left wing Democrats elected and getting attention. These things were all but ignored until recent years.

These things are also related.

-Putin by some estimates may be the wealtheist of all billionaires in the world.

-He helped Trump get elected President in numerous ways, directly and indirectly.

-The NRA has been dictating legislation and throwing large ammounts of money at destructive policy for a long time.

-Putin and Trump are buddies, and Trump is also making friends with other dictators.

-Trump's new Venezuela envoy is a man who was up to his ears in our crimes south of the border.

I could go on and on. This shit's like dominoes.

The Russia stuff with Trump and his allies is the most immediate and blatant problem that needs to be dealt with before anything has a shot at changing for the better, and it happens to involve a lot of people who are big parts of many other issues as well.
 

turtle553

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,234
Without proof that Russia directly controlled voting machines through hacking, a lot of people will downplay their effect on the election. For whatever reason, people voted how they chose and these were the results. If people were stupid enough to fall for obvious propaganda, that is just a failure of our education and support systems.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,903
Without proof that Russia directly controlled voting machines through hacking, a lot of people will downplay their effect on the election. For whatever reason, people voted how they chose and these were the results. If people were stupid enough to fall for obvious propaganda, that is just a failure of our education and support systems.

Propaganda is very effective because it often reinforces your existing bigotry.

Even if you start today and massively overhaul and invest into education you'd have to educate an entire generation not to be dumb. Most people are a lost cause.

Short term you need to block it out somehow
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,054
  • Is there a hyperfocus on Russian interference? Yes.
  • Is it downplaying other important issues? No, I don't think so: we're capable of comprehending and focusing on multiple things at once.

But...

  • Is a foreign adversary interfering in our election an appropriate thing to focus on? Yes.
  • Are financial & political ties between the president of the United States and a foreign, antagonistic adversary important things to focus on? Yes.
Further...
  • Did Russia elect Donald Trump? No. Americans did. Don't forget that or lose sight of it.
 

LGHT_TRSN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,141
We should be focused on Russia's attempts to destabilize democracies across the world. It's incredibly important so we can combat their attempts in the future.

Believe it or not, it's possible for people to focus on more than one thing.
 

THE210

Member
Nov 30, 2017
1,546
Sure Russia interfered but it's only because the election was super close that it mattered. All this talk about Facebook pages being sponsered by Russia seems insignificant to me personally. As a black person I don't need a Russian Facebook group to shape my feelings about our treatment in America.
I'm also bothered by the sentiment on ERA that people doing their own thing or somehow stooges for Russia. Jill Stein and Bernie Sanders and all the other candidates had a right to run against Hillary inspite of Russia being anti Hillary. It doesn't make them puppets or tools.
For me the worst part of this Russia story is how the media has used it to completely absolve itself of shouldering most of the blame for Trump. They held Trump to a ridiculously low standard while simultaneously raking Hillary over the coals for ratings.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
Sure Russia interfered but it's only because the election was super close that it mattered. All this talk about Facebook pages being sponsered by Russia seems insignificant to me personally. As a black person I don't need a Russian Facebook group to shape my feelings about our treatment in America.
I'm also bothered by the sentiment on ERA that people doing their own thing or somehow stooges for Russia. Jill Stein and Bernie Sanders and all the other candidates had a right to run against Hillary inspite of Russia being anti Hillary. It doesn't make them puppets or tools.
For me the worst part of this Russia story is how the media has used it to completely absolve itself of shouldering most of the blame for Trump. They held Trump to a ridiculously low standard while simultaneously raking Hillary over the coals for ratings.

Jill Stein met with Putin. She regularly appeared on Russia Today, the Russian propaganda channel and internet news source. She was a tool. Doesn't mean she has to support Putin's views 100% but she was used.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
That's one way to see it. Others might call it "HOLD THE THIEF!" method. The US propaganda machine is pointing at Russian influence to distract from internal problems.

Not saying there is none of that. Just saying it's far far from being the root cause of the problems of the western world.

Or you can start a thread about that instead if bringing it up reflexively when questions are raised about Russian actions.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
Were they rosy fresh with clean hands in 2012 and the decade prior? How about the US? Three possibilities:

1) It's as straightforward as you say it is, and things just happened to change between 2012 and 2016, and Russia put on its bond villain hat overnight, and media & politicians are just responsibly calling the shots as they see them.

2) Russia always had its bond villain hat on, but media & politicians didn't latch onto and publicize it until it became politically convenient for them in recent years.

3) Russia didn't and doesn't have a bond villain hat on, but media & politicians are latching onto and demonizing Russia's geopolitical muscle-flexing because it is politically convenient for them and/or there are higher-up geopolitical figures spurring this message.

I'm with 2 or 3 (particularly 3), and that is certainly Orwellian --- the whole Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia, and the ease with which we flip and flop between demon-spawns whom we must go to war with.

Russia was the main enemy of the US since after world war II. There was a short period of friendliness in the 90s and early 00s. If you missed the fact that Putin id practically a bond villain and has been for a long time you weren't paying attention. The media or the US didn't suddenly turn on Russia or Putin. The reason it got more attention recently is because they've gotten far more aggressive and actually succeeding at propaganda now because there's a receptive bitter anti globalization right wing audience and it's actually effecting events in the West. All the things I said happened between 2012 and 2016 happened.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
Cool. Maybe you could go back and adress my actual point intended of assuming that I think the actions in Crimea were okay and immidiately jumping down my throat.

This is the next step in apologist behavior for American hegemony tho: "sure America isn't perfect but if we decline China and Russia are gonna be so much worse". Despite America's recent political dysfunction we're not even close to a handover in structural power yet. I'll keep criticizing our hegemon thank you v much.

Where was I being an apologist? I was stating US decline matter of fact-ly because of electing leaders like bush Jr and trump among other things. Us power is on the decline and Russia and China will be much worse because they treat their own populations like disposable dirt how will they treat the other countries? Their government's are less accountable to their people and they both have dictatorial leaders now with near absolute power.
 

Deleted member 19003

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,809
It belongs to Russia. It's majority ethnic Russians that live there and belonged to Russia before the disbanding of the Soviet Union. The locals decided as well in a referendum. They took it dirty but they have plenty of claim to it.
Wtf? That fake ass referendum is your proof that crimea wanted to be taken? Give me a break.

Stop swallowing and spreading RT propaganda:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/paulro...ts-only-15-voted-for-annexation/#2a54b589f172

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/16/ukraine-russia-truce-crimea-referendum

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Crimean_status_referendum
 
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Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
Russia has always been a bond villian we just hoped that they would be better now and we were all optimistic back then. China is Also an issue we have to deal with that we have been lax with.

People act like we are going all in on the russia angle and are missing the other shit...

Alot of you people are arguiing in bad faith.

I doubt anyone who's so careful with posts that they've only done it 24 times since the site launched and 20 of those were in gaming, would ever drop a weird pro Russian take that ignores facts and international intelligence assumptions and Putin's actions...in bad faith.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
Where was I being an apologist? I was stating US decline matter of fact-ly because of electing leaders like bush Jr and trump among other things. Us power is on the decline and Russia and China will be much worse because they treat their own populations like disposable dirt how will they treat the other countries? Their government's are less accountable to their people and they both have dictatorial leaders now with near absolute power.

US Decline is greatly exaggerated, they just aren't being run very well right now,. I guess there is the possibility that America never recovers from this for even a little bit



maybe instead of tut tuttting you could go through the trouble telling me why it's so unacceptable to point out that while both bad, annexing a border region which was previously part of your territory 30 years ago while sponsoring a civil war to humble someone in your sphere of influence and inventing an excuse to unilaterally invade a country in a region for blood and treasure, destabilizing an entire region leading to the deaths of well over a million people are things which also both had flimsy excuses covering their legitimacy.
The post I was responding do was trying to draw a distinction in the motivations of Crimea and Iraq by pointing out that the former was completely depraved whereas the other had noble intentions. I really cant take that seriously, thus the post.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
maybe instead of tut tuttting you could go through the trouble telling me why it's so unacceptable to point out that while both bad, annexing a border region which was previously part of your territory 30 years ago while sponsoring a civil war to humble someone in your sphere of influence and inventing an excuse to unilaterally invade a country in a region for blood and treasure, destabilizing an entire region leading to the deaths of well over a million people are things which also both had flimsy excuses covering their legitimacy.
The post I was responding do was trying to draw a distinction in the motivations of Crimea and Iraq by pointing out that the former was completely depraved whereas the other had noble intentions. I really cant take that seriously, thus the post.
Dubya's administration was legitimately surprised and horrified when their promoted elections for the Palestinians (3-4 years post-Iraq) ended up with Hamas being elected instead of the PLO. There were very much deluded true believers there pushing these insane utopian-level ideas about democracy alongside people with other motives. That's not going to be the case in a mafia dictator state.
 

Stinkles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,459
US Decline is greatly exaggerated, they just aren't being run very well right now,. I guess there is the possibility that America never recovers from this for even a little bit




maybe instead of tut tuttting you could go through the trouble telling me why it's so unacceptable to point out that while both bad, annexing a border region which was previously part of your territory 30 years ago while sponsoring a civil war to humble someone in your sphere of influence and inventing an excuse to unilaterally invade a country in a region for blood and treasure, destabilizing an entire region leading to the deaths of well over a million people are things which also both had flimsy excuses covering their legitimacy.
The post I was responding do was trying to draw a distinction in the motivations of Crimea and Iraq by pointing out that the former was completely depraved whereas the other had noble intentions. I really cant take that seriously, thus the post.

I can't take any defense of Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea that contains or acknowledgesPutin's own false and nationalism tinged definition of what happened and why. If you believe that I have some 9k37 Buk missiles to sell you.

Iraq was also an illegal criminal disaster. Two bad things can be true.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Were they rosy fresh with clean hands in 2012 and the decade prior? How about the US? Three possibilities:

1) It's as straightforward as you say it is, and things just happened to change between 2012 and 2016, and Russia put on its bond villain hat overnight, and media & politicians are just responsibly calling the shots as they see them.

2) Russia always had its bond villain hat on, but media & politicians didn't latch onto and publicize it until it became politically convenient for them in recent years.

3) Russia didn't and doesn't have a bond villain hat on, but media & politicians are latching onto and demonizing Russia's geopolitical muscle-flexing because it is politically convenient for them and/or there are higher-up geopolitical figures spurring this message.

I'm with 2 or 3 (particularly 3), and that is certainly Orwellian --- the whole Oceania, Eurasia and Eastasia, and the ease with which we flip and flop between demon-spawns whom we must go to war with.
Russia was only very briefly a democracy, it backslid right into an authoritarian dictatorship and it took us too long in the West to realize that Putin's ex-KGB backgroun meant he was going full cold war mentality, something about which the US hadn't really been caring about in the 90s/00s.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,956
It's easier to designate one enemy as a super villain than to acknowledge the danger that all of one's enemies present and to defend yourself from all sides. The other big thing is that the Russian intervention was highly visible, while Chinese and other countries' actions typically aren't, so it is easier to make a public case for them than relatively clandestine operations that go under the radar of public opinion.
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
"Hey now the Nazis were just looking out for the ethnic Germans living in the Sudetenland and western Poland. Their intentions were honorable really."
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
I can't take any defense of Russia's illegal annexation of Crimea that contains or acknowledgesPutin's own false and nationalism tinged definition of what happened and why. If you believe that I have some 9k37 Buk missiles to sell you.

Iraq was also an illegal criminal disaster. Two bad things can be true.

His account is partially based in historical and ethnographic fact. That doesn't make it in any way acceptable. However it also doesn't make me an apologist by virtue of describing what happened. Russia annexed territory it previously held and has been (first non-violently then violently) destabilizing Ukrainian democracy for by my reckoning almost a decade now. Please tell me how this is an apologist take.


Dubya's administration was legitimately surprised and horrified when their promoted elections for the Palestinians (3-4 years post-Iraq) ended up with Hamas being elected instead of the PLO. There were very much deluded true believers there pushing these insane utopian-level ideas about democracy alongside people with other motives. That's not going to be the case in a mafia dictator state.

Naivete? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
It's easier to designate one enemy as a super villain than to acknowledge the danger that all of one's enemies present and to defend yourself from all sides. The other big thing is that the Russian intervention was highly visible, while Chinese and other countries' actions typically aren't, so it is easier to make a public case for them than relatively clandestine operations that go under the radar of public opinion.
China's typically been espionage related. They're not good (see: Canadians being arrested) but they've also not been directly aggressive outside their own country.

Russia has been directly aggressive, and the difference between them really seems to be that China's doing well in the modern economy while Russia's not, so Russia is basically going "For me to succeed, all others must fail" and trying to shit on everyone else in the world.
Naivete? I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make.
The point is that neither Hitler or Putin's excuse is in any way a legitimate motivation while some of the motivations for Iraq were legitimate, but delusional.

No one was legitimately trying to help Ukraine. Some were w/ Iraq, even though their ideas were absolutely insane.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Thread is also about the worry of how a hyperfocus on Russia might give blindspots to other issues, inlcuding US-related ones.
And this is a horrible, ridiculous argument that pretends people can't care about multiple things at once.

When this argument is made, it's really saying "I am upset that people are talking about subjects other than my preferred one", much in the same way that racist white people freak out when politicians directly address issues specific to a minority group.
Who cares if someone followed a fake Facebook page
You don't care that people are actively following active foreign propaganda?

And if you had bothered to read the article or others on this topic, you'd understand that it wasn't just "following a fake Facebook page", rallies were being set up w/ Russia playing both sides of thee coin, and people were being manipulated into doing various things to help feed into their efforts to inflame social divisions.

And none of this takes away from the legitimate issues, it only applies to how those issues were being exploited in bad faith by people who don't want to actually help, which is something that I would think you'd be concerned about!
 

VectorPrime

Banned
Apr 4, 2018
11,781
And this is a horrible, ridiculous argument that pretends people can't care about multiple things at once.

When this argument is made, it's really saying "I am upset that people are talking about subjects other than my preferred one", much in the same way that racist white people freak out when politicians directly address issues specific to a minority group.

It's funny how the thread couldn't even get to a second page before someone barged in with "why aren't people more mad about OBAMA"
 
OP
OP
Iloelemen

Iloelemen

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,323
And this is a horrible, ridiculous argument that pretends people can't care about multiple things at once.

When this argument is made, it's really saying "I am upset that people are talking about subjects other than my preferred one", much in the same way that racist white people freak out when politicians directly address issues specific to a minority group.
We are capable of discussing and informing ourselves on multiple topics at once. It shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

It isn't isn't a binary question of caring about one thing and not caring about another thing. Obviously, a variety of multiple things can be cared all at the same time and of course, that's what's currently happening, the media are juggling in tackling with different issues and acknowledges that yes, the US has fucked up while also tackling Russia.

It's really more a question of degree of focus and framing.
 
Last edited:

Ignatz Mouse

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,741
Russia gonna Russia.

But that doesn't mean we should downplay it, or both-sides it and talk about how the US and other countries have done similar things.

What we should do is

- Learn to recognize it
- address the wedge issues that are being exploited by Russia
- find common cause rather than fragment, politically. Focus on what unites us, not what divides us.

I don't think Trump would have won either his primary or the election without Russian help. But the thing to address is the apathy that allowed it to happen, the racism that was emboldened, and the lack of oversight in our system and the reliance on customs and norms rather than laws that Trump continues to exploit.

Russia's going to keep pulling shit as long as we keep falling for it.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,903
Thread is also about the worry of how a hyperfocus on Russia might give blindspots to other issues, inlcuding US-related ones.

We are capable of discussing and informing ourselves on multiple topics at once. It shouldn't be mutually exclusive.

You don't care that people are actively following active foreign propaganda?

I don't get the notion that people should be subjected to false foreign propaganda and if they vote with it it's their fault for being dumb.

When their votes impact your life you can't just shrug it off and say "oh well".

Brexit, Trump are all instances or people being duped. You need to do something about this but you don't have time to educate a new generation now so what do you do?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,899
Ontario
China's typically been espionage related. They're not good (see: Canadians being arrested) but they've also not been directly aggressive outside their own country.

Russia has been directly aggressive, and the difference between them really seems to be that China's doing well in the modern economy while Russia's not, so Russia is basically going "For me to succeed, all others must fail" and trying to shit on everyone else in the world.

The point is that neither Hitler or Putin's excuse is in any way a legitimate motivation while some of the motivations for Iraq were legitimate, but delusional.

No one was legitimately trying to help Ukraine. Some were w/ Iraq, even though their ideas were absolutely insane.

Russia just wants it's money and ability to coerce its European satellites back. It couldn't be hegemon even if it wanted to. China has been exhibiting tons of neo-colonial behavior in Africa, Central Asia and South East Asia. I really encourage you to read up more on stuff before assuming an authority on the subject.


My point, which I assume you disagree with but I really think is worth considering is that on a consequentialist level, having the most powerful country in the world be naive and delusional about the good it can do through invasion is probably a bad thing in and of itself. intentionality dosen't matter that much on the international level so I don't think drawing distinctions between our tragedies and their crimes is that useful.
 

Deleted member 11985

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,168
No, and it's dangerous to start sowing doubt and getting placated because that's exactly the long game that Russia is playing. Just yesterday, this report came out about Trump's DHS downsized two task forces created in 2016 specifically to fight foreign influence in elections. There's no coincidence there:

https://www.thedailybeast.com/trumps-dhs-guts-task-forces-protecting-elections-from-foreign-meddling

The only reason why "the Russia thing" has gone on for so long is because we have a complete stooge government right now that refuses to do anything about it. This whole thing would've been a non-issue of sanctioning Russia under a democrat government. The only thing you would've heard about Russia after that is how they're upset with the sanctions.

Unfortunately, as long as this stooge government is in place, then we're stuck with Russia being front and center. Because as soon as we start getting comfortable with Russian interference, then we're stuck with that stooge government for a lot longer than 4 years.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,903
My point, which I assume you disagree with but I really think is worth considering is that on a consequentialist level, having the most powerful country in the world be naive and delusional about the good it can do through invasion is probably a bad thing in and of itself. intentionality dosen't matter that much on the international level so I don't think drawing distinctions between our tragedies and their crimes is that useful

I don't disagree with you but you can't enact any positive change through the democratic process when that process itself is under assault.

People want to enact a US government that doesn't invade countries for oil but you can't do that when the people who do this keep getting elected, partially on the assistance of foreign powers.

Cart before horse.
 

sapien85

Banned
Nov 8, 2017
5,427
Russia just wants it's money and ability to coerce its European satellites back. It couldn't be hegemon even if it wanted to. China has been exhibiting tons of neo-colonial behavior in Africa, Central Asia and South East Asia. I really encourage you to read up more on stuff before assuming an authority on the subject.


My point, which I assume you disagree with but I really think is worth considering is that on a consequentialist level, having the most powerful country in the world be naive and delusional about the good it can do through invasion is probably a bad thing in and of itself. intentionality dosen't matter that much on the international level so I don't think drawing distinctions between our tragedies and their crimes is that useful.

Russia isn't trying to be world hegemon. It's trying to return the world to a multipolar one where different powers control different parts of the world. A world like that is what led to the world wars. A relative balance of super powers leads to explosive conflict to resolve balances of power or even worse several wars with no conclusive winners meaning they were futile.
 
Oct 25, 2017
436
Russia gonna Russia.

But that doesn't mean we should downplay it, or both-sides it and talk about how the US and other countries have done similar things.

What we should do is

- Learn to recognize it
- address the wedge issues that are being exploited by Russia
- find common cause rather than fragment, politically. Focus on what unites us, not what divides us.

I don't think Trump would have won either his primary or the election without Russian help. But the thing to address is the apathy that allowed it to happen, the racism that was emboldened, and the lack of oversight in our system and the reliance on customs and norms rather than laws that Trump continues to exploit.

Russia's going to keep pulling shit as long as we keep falling for it.

Fantastic post --- agree 100%
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,903
Russia isn't trying to be world hegemon. It's trying to return the world to a multipolar one where different powers control different parts of the world. A world like that is what led to the world wars. A relative balance of super powers leads to explosive conflict to resolve balances of power or even worse several wars with no conclusive winners meaning they were futile.

I think their goal is also exporting their kleptocratic form of government. It's more countries they can launder money in.

Last thing they want is countries all over the world implementing Magnitsky acts of their own.
 
Oct 27, 2017
45,298
Seattle
It belongs to Russia. It's majority ethnic Russians that live there and belonged to Russia before the disbanding of the Soviet Union. The locals decided as well in a referendum. They took it dirty but they have plenty of claim to it.

giphy.gif


This isn't Crusader Kings 2, where you can invade somewhere just because you have a strong claim. Also it was with Ukraine before the fall of the Soviet Union.