J.K. Rowling | ContraPoints

[Ramathevoice]

Just became visible to non-patrons and it lasts 90 minutes, so haven't watched it, but I thought some of you would like a heads-up.

Content warnings apply, obviously, for discussion of transphobia but also abuse and assault.

Really, really curious about her take on Rowling's (and a lot of the UK "elite" and media's) version of transphobia.

E: Only a few minutes in but editing and production value are off the hook as usual.

E2: I just realized I had a work thing and won't be able to finish the video til tomorrow, fuck! Oh well, enjoy!

E3: I unfortunately couldn't keep much of an eye on the conversation here due to work, but I'm doing my best to threadmark important concerns people have raised about Contra in general and stuff she says in this video specifically.

I've threadmarked a post by Watchtower but I think this in particular is worth adding to the OP.

And it's important to be vigilant on keeping these to task because Contra as a thought leader cultivates a like-minded fandom, and in dismissing concerns over nonbinary she encourages her base to do the same, something we've already seen by a couple posts in this very thread.

Click to shrink...

E4: Twitter user @Nymphomachy has some very fair comments. Here's the first tweet in her thread.

 

[Platy]

1 hour and a half?
Some of these youtubers are loosing any semblance of synthesis or constrain =P

 

[Snagret]

1 hour and a half?
Some of these youtubers are loosing any semblance of synthesis or constrain =P

Click to shrink...

You should check out some of her apology videos....

 

[lorddarkflare]

1 hour and a half?
Some of these youtubers are loosing any semblance of synthesis or constrain =P

Click to shrink...

Pfft, this is restrained by some standards.

Also, they like to do bits and other fun things which make these longer than than the discussion would normally be.

 

[Keywork]

Partway through and she has examined JK Rowling's statements, why they are transphobic, and is now digging into what bigotry is and where it comes from. Really good so far.

 

[Vashetti]

I posted this in

TERF JK Rowling continues to be a hateful bigot.

I thought we were using that as a catch-all for Rowling stuff now?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Breaking from her idol on this one

That's good at least. Though not surprising JK frequently focuses her targets on trans women, so Nat has actual skin in this game.

You should check out some of her apology videos....

Click to shrink...

What apology vidoes ;)

 

[Frodo]

Whoooooooop! Getting into this ASAP.

 

[Watchtower]

Y'know, it's not like JK Rowling's an unknown quantity, surely there are much better people that can weigh in on this than one who's problematic at best.

 

[Skyscourge]

Y'know, it's not like JK Rowling's an unknown quantity, surely there are much better people that can weigh in on this than one who's problematic at best.

Click to shrink...

I really don't know any media personality that's more well equipped (and well known) to tackle this one.

 

[ZeroMaverick]

I wish I could hear her voice more clearly. That's the one aspect of the production that doesn't work for me.

 

[IMCaprica]

I really don't know any media personality that's more well equipped (and well known) to tackle this one.

Click to shrink...

That's super depressing.

 

[That1GoodHunter]

30 mins in and really good so far

 

[Watchtower]

I really don't know any media personality that's more well equipped (and well known) to tackle this one.

Click to shrink...

Again, this is a personality who is at best problematic, primarily when it comes to her views on non-binary, so I would really caution ascribing her as something akin to "the biggest trans voice on Youtube."

At least have awareness that it really sucks that there's truth in that.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I must be thinking of the wrong person...I thought she's been (frustratingly) dodgy on calling out Rowling in the past? I'll have to watch this after work.

 

[Twstr709]

Really long, but really good so far.

 

[Axon]

You should check out some of her apology videos....

Click to shrink...

I dont think she has ever made an apology video.

 

[AliceAmber]

Given this thread isn't Rowling going off on some bigoted spiel and is about a takedown of her bigotry, we'll allow it.

 

[Platy]

I posted this in

TERF JK Rowling continues to be a hateful bigot.

I thought we were using that as a catch-all for Rowling stuff now?

Click to shrink...

That thread is a catch all for shit rowling does.

Contrapoints is famous in the forum, so a new video of hers almost always gets a thread

 

[astro]

I have issues with Contra Points, but the breakdown's she does of how insidious bigotry in this video (so far, only 30 minutes in) are well-packaged for people who could be resistant to understanding it.

I need to watch it all and process exactly how I feel about it.

 

[Snagret]

I dont think she has ever made an apology video.

Click to shrink...

Well, "post-controversy response" video at least

 

[BassForever]

I have no history with ContraPoints before this video, but this is an excellent analysis of both JK Rowlings transphobia and so much else that I feel it's worth sharing to people who don't get the "cancel jk rowling" movement, including jk rowling herself.

 

[Vashetti]

Finished watching it and it was excellent overall. The concluding message that Jo is likely too far gone, is a sad one.

 

[Ramathevoice]

I posted this in

TERF JK Rowling continues to be a hateful bigot.

I thought we were using that as a catch-all for Rowling stuff now?

Click to shrink...

That thread is a catch all for shit rowling does.

Contrapoints is famous in the forum, so a new video of hers almost always gets a thread

Click to shrink...

You both make good points, but in the end it's my bad for spacing on the centralization of Rowling talk on this forum.

Mods, if you think this shouldn't be a thread that's completely understandable.

 

[Fiction]

I found her take on victimhood and bigotry to be pretty enlightening. There was a time when I was younger where I had an unvoiced...hesitancy? Maybe? About transwomen because of my own experiences and trauma as a woman. Its scary to think that if I had not run in the circles that I did that I might have become a "concerned about the trans youth" person. Hell, those concerns flared a bit when when my own daughter came out as a transwoman.

 

[Kyuuji]

Some thoughts:

• Great breakdown of Rowling's comments and statements over the past couple of years.
• Solid insight into how 'polite bigotry' works for those that might not be clued in.
• Nice to relate the transphobia with transphobic consequences in law.
• Agree with her on the 'trans women are women' part.
• "..trans people are always on the lookout for the next person we can trans" – can confirm, we are.
• Really good to see her addressing how transphobes treat trans men and transmasculine people.
• I think elements of the ending can be a little (unintentionally) patronising toward trans people.
• Little too much violin play for Rowling in the final segment re: twitter as it forsakes mention of the abuse she herself directs toward trans people. I think Judith Butler handled that specific side of things better.
• The very final moments are great and accurate. It's part of why it's a little frustrating to read cis people say things like "I'm not going to let Rowling being an asshole destroy my love of Harry Potter", as it feels like a privileged take that verges on bragging about your ability to, as a consequence of having no stake in it.

All in all, valuable video. I hope those that could best learn from it don't take away that the sides are equal. I know she touched on it in closing out the segment but unsure if it was as potent as the preceding bulk of that final quarter. Minor nit-picks on the whole and am grateful that she handled the the rest as she did.

 

[Ramathevoice]

I think Judith Butler handled that specific side of things better

Click to shrink...

Any way you could point me in the direction of this? :)

 

[excelsiorlef]

I found her take on victimhood and bigotry to be pretty enlightening. There was a time when I was younger where I had an unvoiced...hesitancy? Maybe? About transwomen because of my own experiences and trauma as a woman. Its scary to think that if I had not run in the circles that I did that I might have become a "concerned about the trans youth" person. Hell, those concerns flared a bit when when my own daughter came out as a transwoman.

Click to shrink...

Just fyi please put a space between trans and woman.

 

[Kyuuji]

Any way you could point me in the direction of this? :)

Click to shrink...

Of course, it's as part of her interview here:

Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in “anti-intellectual times”

The philosopher and gender theorist discusses tensions in the feminist movement over trans rights

www.newstatesman.com

 

[That1GoodHunter]

Finished it. Great job on this one, and likely the best breakdown of JK from one of the left wing youtubers.

 

[Platy]

Finished the video
Too many interruptions for a video already way too long

but a cool video, even if i am not a fan of how long Contrapoints does the "i am not a fan of this stuff that the community does". I mean it is like RIGHT AFTER she said "don't say this because it gives them ammo" and then she went on to give them more ammo =P

Also, weird that she didn't highlighted the "large man hands" mention on Gailbrath's book, as she already focused on how much terfs love that in other videos

 

[Vashetti]

Finished the video
Too many interruptions for a video already way too long

but a cool video, even if i am not a fan of how long Contrapoints does the "i am not a fan of this stuff that the community does". I mean it is like RIGHT AFTER she said "don't say this because it gives them ammo" and then she went on to give them more ammo =P

Also, weird that she didn't highlighted the "large man hands" mention on Gailbrath's book, as she already focused on how much terfs love that in other videos

Click to shrink...

I'm surprised she didn't bring up Rita Skeeter's description from Goblet of Fire when she read that quote.

 

[Ramathevoice]

Of course, it's as part of her interview here:

Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in “anti-intellectual times”

The philosopher and gender theorist discusses tensions in the feminist movement over trans rights

www.newstatesman.com

Click to shrink...

Thanks!

 

[Blackthorn]

Of course, it's as part of her interview here:

Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in “anti-intellectual times”

The philosopher and gender theorist discusses tensions in the feminist movement over trans rights

www.newstatesman.com

Click to shrink...

This is a legendary interview because the interviewer keeps trying to steer the discussion towards typical British TERFery and Butler deliberately refuses to take the bait. You can almost feel the interviewer becoming frustrated in the text.

 

[astro]

Some thoughts:

• Great breakdown of Rowling's comments and statements over the past couple of years.
• Solid insight into how 'polite bigotry' works for those that might not be clued in.
• Nice to relate the transphobia with transphobic consequences in law.
• Agree with her on the 'trans women are women' part.
• "..trans people are always on the lookout for the next person we can trans" – can confirm, we are.
• Really good to see her addressing how transphobes treat trans men and transmasculine people.
• I think elements of the ending can be a little (unintentionally) patronising toward trans people.
• Little too much violin play for Rowling in the final segment re: twitter as it forsakes mention of the abuse she herself directs toward trans people. I think Judith Butler handled that specific side of things better.
• The very final moments are great and accurate. It's part of why it's a little frustrating to read cis people say things like "I'm not going to let Rowling being an asshole destroy my love of Harry Potter", as it feels like a privileged take that verges on bragging about your ability to, as a consequence of having no stake in it.

All in all, valuable video. I hope those that could best learn from it don't take away that the sides are equal. I know she touched on it in closing out the segment but unsure if it was as potent as the preceding bulk of that final quarter. Minor nit-picks on the whole and am grateful that she handled the the rest as she did.

Click to shrink...

Pretty much mirrors my own views exactly, so honestly no need to type them out again.

 

[Fiction]

Just fyi please put a space between trans and woman.

Click to shrink...

Oh! Thank you for correcting me, I didn't know they were two separate words. If you see me make that or any other mistake again please let me know. I'm always learning :)

 

[excelsiorlef]

Oh! Thank you for correcting me, I didn't know they were two separate words. If you see me make that or any other mistake again please let me know. I'm always learning :)

Click to shrink...

<3

 

[julia crawford]

I don't have the energy to watch this...

 

[jett]

That was insightful and enlightening as usual from Contrapoints.

 

[stupei]

As a cis butch lesbian who is very used to being harassed in the women's restroom, it was interesting to have her actually broach the topic here. It's seldom really discussed in things addressing Rowling's bigotry and the UK's transphobia as a whole, but I absolutely noticed a difference in the aggression from other women when I was in a bathroom in London compared to my experiences even in some of the most conservative areas of America.

Oh! Thank you for correcting me, I didn't know they were two separate words. If you see me make that or any other mistake again please let me know. I'm always learning :)

Click to shrink...

Just to clarify further, it's because trans functions as an adjective to describe a woman whereas one word would imply a different category of person all together, which is why it's not a thing.

I don't have the energy to watch this...

Click to shrink...

It's good, but pretty demanding. I've seen some of these terf takes before but some of the stuff here was new to me and it left with breathless with its cruelty.

Finished the video
Too many interruptions for a video already way too long

Click to shrink...

Just in terms of structure, I have to disagree. With such a heavy topic, those little interruptions feel intended to give the viewer breathing room. If it's just endless brutal facts and points laid out one after the other, you honestly can't process it all after a certain point and the meaning gets a little loss, especially for viewers who might not be as familiar with the topic.

 

[GameAddict411]

She brought up something that I never thought about. The phrase trans women are women didn't appear to be problematic at first to me, but she explained very well how it could exclude members of the trans community including non binary people. And equally as important, it shifts the argument from bad faith actors to discuss the semantics of what the term women even means. I only manage to watch half so far though.

 

[excelsiorlef]

That was insightful and enlightening as usual from Contrapoints.

Click to shrink...

I'd argue not as usual recently

 

[Jakenbakin]

Of course, it's as part of her interview here:

Judith Butler on the culture wars, JK Rowling and living in “anti-intellectual times”

The philosopher and gender theorist discusses tensions in the feminist movement over trans rights

www.newstatesman.com

Click to shrink...

Wow that was a great interview. I've added the ContraPoints video to be watched later but I'm really glad I read this in the meantime.

 

[Deleted member 5127]

1 hour and a half?
Some of these youtubers are loosing any semblance of synthesis or constrain =P

Click to shrink...

That's exactly why I enjoy her videos, she goes in depth with every topic, and while I don't agree with her on everything (and I don't watch videos to agree with everything), the way she makes videos is top notch.

 

[Watchtower]

She brought up something that I never thought about. The phrase trans women are women didn't appear to be problematic at first to me, but she explained very well how it could exclude members of the trans community including non binary people. And equally as important, it shifts the argument from bad faith actors to discuss the semantics of what the term women even means. I only manage to watch half so far though.

Click to shrink...

If you could actually bring up where that part is in the video that'd actually be greatly appreciated. It'd really help to know if that's actually something she addresses or if that's just your own extrapolation of her messaging.

 

[PickledCucumber]

Just to clarify further, it's because trans functions as an adjective to describe a woman whereas one word would imply a different category of person all together, which is why it's not a thing.

Click to shrink...

I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for the info!

 

[Infcabbage]

Just fyi please put a space between trans and woman.

Click to shrink...

Is this a thing? It's definitely not how I prefer to describe myself, I always leave the space out and feel weird when people put a space between the words when referring to me.
Very interesting, but something to keep in mind I suppose. Anyway, that's off-the topic.

I haven't watched a contra-points video since the whole collaborating with known awful people incident and refusing to take any accountability for it, but I do miss her content since she generally makes well put together videos. Might be worth checking out.

edit: corrected information

 

[ElNerdo]

If you could actually bring up where that part is in the video that'd actually be greatly appreciated. It'd really help to know if that's actually something she addresses or if that's just your own extrapolation of her messaging.

Click to shrink...

Starting at 27:45

 

[excelsiorlef]

Is this a thing? It's definitely not how I prefer to describe myself, I always leave the space out and feel weird when people put a space between the words when referring to me.
Very interesting, but something to keep in mind I suppose. Anyway, that's off-the topic.

I haven't watched a contra-points video since the whole collaborating with known awful people incident and refusing to take any accountability for it, but I do miss her content since she generally makes well put together videos. Might be worth checking out.

edit: corrected information

Click to shrink...

For many yeah because trans is an adjective that elaborates on the noun woman rather than being entirely a seperate noun independent of woman.

 

[Aaron]

The statements she quotes from Rowling throughout the video like "oh of course I support whatever trans people want to identify as" just reminded me of this quote about racism:

Constantly spouted unironically by white people who think of themselves as good people, and even allies, but don't understand (or don't care) that their phrasing only belittles peoples' experiences and is often only said so they can avoid having to reflect on their own bigoted bullshit.