Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,668
its a false equivalency in the sense that giving kotick hundreds of millions of dollars is much, much, much worse. yes.

This is very, very silly

1) Kotick was going to come out of this a richer man, either way

2) Punishing Kotick would be nice, but creating a better work environment for AB's many, many employees is arguably much more important

3) Apparently Kotick might end up not being all that better off as a result of the deal? Seems to be somewhat in the air

4) Different companies, different relationships, different situations, and "you were willing to buy this company" and "you weren't willing to act as publisher for this company" just isn't going to make for the most compelling comparison a lot of the time
 

ohlawd

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,307
Phantagrande
I had bad vibes with Mahler for like a decade dude said in the old place Ori 1 was better than Mario 3D World. so he's a shitbag in real life too cool
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,814
Arizona
Then I guess MS shouldn't purchase Activision? I mean, sure stand up to Moon. But too much money not to turn away a AAA company. A bit two faced no?
Those are very different things. An acquisition, where everyone being brought in now being held accountable to new leadership and can be forced to clean up, versus cutting a check to fund a project for a studio that will otherwise operate as is without direct oversight. The prior scenario is an opportunity for change, whereas the latter is directly funding maintaining the status quo.
 
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Zetta

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,734
This is good on Microsoft and hopefully their Activision acquisition also fixes all the shit that is going on over there. If a lot of heads need to roll then let it be so.
 

Ovvv

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jan 11, 2019
10,030
I had bad vibes with Mahler for like a decade dude said in the old place Ori 1 was better than Mario 3D World. so he's a shitbag in real life too cool

I mean definitely fuck this guy but also that's a weird reason to think someone was a shitbag online lol
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,814
Arizona
its a false equivalency in the sense that giving kotick hundreds of millions of dollars is much, much, much worse. yes.
Find me literally any scenario where Kotick does not have hundreds of millions. He either has hundreds of millions in AB shares or hundreds of millions in cash. That money can't be taken away from him, in literally every single scenario he has it. All that's changing is the form his assets are taking.

Also, keep in mind, Kotick would much, much, MUCH rather hold onto those AB shares and his position than the cash he's getting in exchange.
 

Musubi

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,149
Find me literally any scenario where Kotick does not have hundreds of millions. He either has hundreds of millions in AB shares or hundreds of millions in cash. That money can't be taken away from him, in literally every single scenario he has it. All that's changing is the form his assets are taking.

Also, keep in mind, Kotick would much, much, MUCH rather hold onto those AB shares and his position than the cash he's getting in exchange.

Yup exactly. People fretting over Kotick getting paid over the acquisition are failing to realize the dude always had a golden parachute. He's getting paid no matter what happens to the company.
 

Glace

Banned
Dec 8, 2021
119
Find me literally any scenario where Kotick does not have hundreds of millions. He either has hundreds of millions in AB shares or hundreds of millions in cash. That money can't be taken away from him, in literally every single scenario he has it. All that's changing is the form his assets are taking.

Also, keep in mind, Kotick would much, much, MUCH rather hold onto those AB shares and his position than the cash he's getting in exchange.
If Activision crashes do does Kotick. MS could easily have said no to having Activision games on their platform. But obviously that would be actually pretty painful for Microsoft so let's make progress only when it's profitable.

Similarly they most likely could have bought Moon Studios and the owners would have made out with tons of cash too while MS comes in to "clean it up". But it was determined not as essential because let's face it while Ori games are critical darling they're not system sellers.
 

wwm0nkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,753
If Activision crashes do does Kotick. MS could easily have said no to having Activision games on their platform. But obviously that would be actually pretty painful for Microsoft so let's make progress only when it's profitable.

Similarly they most likely could have bought Moon Studios and the owners would have made out with tons of cash too while MS comes in to "clean it up". But it was determined not as essential because let's face it while Ori games are critical darling they're not system sellers.
It wouldn't have mattered much because you'd also need Sony and Nintendo to do that and then you'd have to rely on people not buying on PC. Better solution is MS buying and cleaning house, well either then Facebook or Tencent
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,836
If Activision crashes do does Kotick. MS could easily have said no to having Activision games on their platform. But obviously that would be actually pretty painful for Microsoft so let's make progress only when it's profitable.

Similarly they most likely could have bought Moon Studios and the owners would have made out with tons of cash too while MS comes in to "clean it up". But it was determined not as essential because let's face it while Ori games are critical darling they're not system sellers.

In what reality is Activision going to crash? None. Every platform owner including those on PC saying no? That's not happening.

Also, they own Ori already. The IP portion is already in their hands, that's not equivalent to AB, especially when we talk about scale of IP.
 

Glace

Banned
Dec 8, 2021
119
In what reality is Activision going to crash? None. Every platform owner including those on PC saying no? That's not happening.

Also, they own Ori already. The IP portion is already in their hands, that's not equivalent to AB, especially when we talk about scale of IP.
So we agree, both moon studios and Activision scenarios are purely business. MS isn't a tech Samaritan going around saving people.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,750
UK
This shit man….some days it feels like for a game to be made people have to be awful.
With developers jumping ship between games such as the high turnover between both Ori games (only 6 developers worked on both games), and the developers in the Annapurna Interactive published ones from the recent People Make Games investigation like Funomena and Fulbright along with Mountains all downsizing or becoming defunct after most of the developers left due to abuses, it just doesn't sound sustainable to run a studio like this.

Like the game might eventually come out but there will less likely be developer retention for the next game and investigations about the abuse will come out to the point where the next game might not be made or struggle.
 

Shadow

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,242
Well dang, good that they cut ties though. I haven't played the Ori games yet, I will at some point, but sucks that some of the people that worked on it are toxic. I'm willing to bet like 90% of companies are toxic, outside of gaming and inside, so we're going to hear this a lot. The more that gets exposed that are toxic, the better. Hopefully this will force moon studios to shape up, but that would take totally different leaders, so it might just end up dying.

As for the Activision thing goes, I totally agree with the poster that said they can't buy them without the other party wanting to buy them and also makes no sense to. Activision has a ton more huge IP's and multitude more people working there, where it would make sense to fix things up. What's Moon studios even have? I only know them because of Ori, and Microsoft owns that.
 

RPGam3r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,836
So we agree, both moon studios and Activision scenarios are purely business. MS isn't a tech Samaritan going around saving people.

Everything a business does is business. They are completely different scenarios that you're weirdly trying to conflate. This whataboutism isn't the gotcha you think it is.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,750
UK
I mean definitely fuck this guy but also that's a weird reason to think someone was a shitbag online lol
Maybe not that opinion specifically but Thomas had a way of putting down other developers' work on this forum while flaunting his own that lines up with accounts from this article, especially what he would do with new recruits who had experience in the industry and shitting on their previous games. Here is just one example:

www.resetera.com

BOTW, RE2, Sekiro, DMCV, Nier, FF7R - Have japanese devs surpassed the western devs?

There's definitely a difference in approach to game development and some people like this more, others that. What I find interesting is that - And I'm just guessing here - due to most western studios nowadays thinking that Open World is the pinnacle of level design, it's surprisingly hard to...
"Y'all would be surprised how many designers in this industry with 10+ years of experience don't even know the basics of level design. They all think they do, of course, but once you put them to a test, it's very obvious that this skill has almost gone missing. I would bet that if you'd have some of the 'best' designers out there trying to make a 3d Mario level, they'd fail on oh so many levels... there's still a few great ones out there and usually we gobble those up at Moon, but it's a sad thing to realize that due to the open world bullshit, we're seeing an entire generation of designers who just really lack even understanding the basics of how level design works."
 

cyrribrae

Chicken Chaser
Member
Jan 21, 2019
12,723
Maybe not that opinion specifically but Thomas had a way of putting down other developers' work on this forum while flaunting his own that lines up with accounts from this article, especially what he would do with new recruits who had experience in the industry and shitting on their previous games. Here is just one example:

www.resetera.com

BOTW, RE2, Sekiro, DMCV, Nier, FF7R - Have japanese devs surpassed the western devs?

There's definitely a difference in approach to game development and some people like this more, others that. What I find interesting is that - And I'm just guessing here - due to most western studios nowadays thinking that Open World is the pinnacle of level design, it's surprisingly hard to...
"Y'all would be surprised how many designers in this industry with 10+ years of experience don't even know the basics of level design. They all think they do, of course, but once you put them to a test, it's very obvious that this skill has almost gone missing. I would bet that if you'd have some of the 'best' designers out there trying to make a 3d Mario level, they'd fail on oh so many levels... there's still a few great ones out there and usually we gobble those up at Moon, but it's a sad thing to realize that due to the open world bullshit, we're seeing an entire generation of designers who just really lack even understanding the basics of how level design works."
Heh. Wow. Oh boy....
 

SPRidley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
Some years ago (before the pandemic) i had a friend that worked in moon studios that told me that things werent as great as it seem inside and one day shit would hit the fan and fans would discover the hard truth.
Seems it finally happened.
 

viandante

Member
Apr 24, 2020
3,113
lmaooooo what a bunch of weirdos. the stupidity never ceases to astound me. like .. you're doing really well, your games are a big success, why start talking shit completely unprovoked and bullying people? seek help
 
Oct 27, 2017
13,087
its a false equivalency in the sense that giving kotick hundreds of millions of dollars is much, much, much worse. yes.
It's a golden parachute he was going to receive regardless.

Do people like yourself actually want the gaming industry to improve when it comes to misogynistic, racist, bigoted practices and actually care about the people suffering from the constant harassment they're subjected to or is it just a performative gotcha game for ya'll?
 

Sense

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,552
Microsoft, out of the goodness of its heart and well being of the actiblizz employees, decided that you know what, let's spend 70 billion dollars to take over and clean the company.
 

skullmuffins

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,459
If Activision crashes do does Kotick. MS could easily have said no to having Activision games on their platform. But obviously that would be actually pretty painful for Microsoft so let's make progress only when it's profitable.

Similarly they most likely could have bought Moon Studios and the owners would have made out with tons of cash too while MS comes in to "clean it up". But it was determined not as essential because let's face it while Ori games are critical darling they're not system sellers.
activision is a publicly traded company with thousands of employees and lots of valuable IP. moon studios is a small, privately-owned indie studio. one, you can't just waltz in and decide to buy a private company, same reason why nobody can just up and buy valve. they have to want to sell. two, there's no point in buying a small indie studio and "clean it out" when 1) you already own the big IP from them and 2) the problem is with the two founders, who make up the core of the studio and most everyone else there is a "disposable" contractor or short term hire. different situations are different.
 

Deleted member 68874

Account closed at user request
Banned
May 10, 2020
10,441
If Activision crashes do does Kotick. MS could easily have said no to having Activision games on their platform. But obviously that would be actually pretty painful for Microsoft so let's make progress only when it's profitable.

Similarly they most likely could have bought Moon Studios and the owners would have made out with tons of cash too while MS comes in to "clean it up". But it was determined not as essential because let's face it while Ori games are critical darling they're not system sellers.
You do realize in this scenario where Activision stock crashes, thousands upon thousands of Activision employees would lose their jobs right? Kotick already has hundreds of millions of dollars, this scenario you've thought up hurts the employees of Activision more than Kotick.
 

spman2099

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,940
its a false equivalency in the sense that giving kotick hundreds of millions of dollars is much, much, much worse. yes.

So what is the solution? He is getting those millions no matter what happens. What do you propose be done?

Because, personally, I am pretty hopeful when it comes to the acquisition. Microsoft doesn't have a perfect track record, but they have been doing decently recently. I think they are the best chance the Activision employees have of getting shit cleaned up at Activision. Especially since everyone is monitoring this situation so closely.
 

KeRaSh

I left my heart on Atropos
Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,450
Yeah this makes sense and explains why MS didn't just straight up acquire them back then.
Good on MS.
Force these studios to become waaay better workplaces to stay relevant.
 

adit

Member
Oct 29, 2017
950
tonja
this remind me about Steve Jobs, he's also kind of asshole, but at the time nobody bat's an eye about that kind of thing

Game Developer Industry itself is generally fucked up, i'm pretty sure there's alot of company (at least the leader) who did similar thing, but the employees are afraid to speak up

they rather move to another company with different industry (game programmer become web developer for example) without speak about horrible thing publicly, i have at least 2 game developers friend who changed carreer and becomed web developer instead but refuse to talked publicly about horrible things in previous company

i'm just glad when i was young i didn't enter this industry simply because it' really difficult to learn about game programming so i become web developer instead, sure the pay isn't as high as game developer but mostly the companies have reasonable hours and not that harsh culture
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
"business sense" is just a way of saying "yeah it sucks, but think about the money"
Do you think AB was bought for another reason? I wish it was different, but in our world nobody buys a company for 70 billion to only save developers. It's more of a coincidence that devs will be treated better, because I think Xbox leadership's team (while not perfect!) Is better than AB leadership team and MS spend a lot of money to get all these developers. They would be dumb to let the very toxic work environment continue.

So for the developers this move actually doesn't "suck" at all. I actually don't know why you think AB being bought does suck for devs... Many on AB devs are happy on Twitter.
Well see how the culture and practices change with AB once the deal goes through
It'll take a lot of time. But I do believe MS will try to solve the environment.
Who's going to be the first journo to ask Phil why Microsoft decided to pass on Moon Studios, but decided to buy ABK wholesale?
I don't know... Probably a journalist trying to be controversial for no reason or being a fanboy of another platform.

its a false equivalency in the sense that giving kotick hundreds of millions of dollars is much, much, much worse. yes.
Perhaps Microsoft should've called the Xbox campus police instead to sue Kotick and to get him out of the company without getting a penny and straight into prison. Unfortunately Kotick was always getting a lots of money, because he owned shares. It doesn't matter if AB got rid of him, MS bought them, Facebook bought them or the government did get him into prison. Nobody can take his shares away, just because Kotick is an asshole.

Sorry for the language, but I am just tired of the dumb argument. This is good for developers and I repeat nobody could've prevented Kotick from getting even more rich.
 
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Sense

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,552
It's a good business for them so why not? It's a win win situation for both MS and AB employees
Yea it is purely a good business move. That is all it is. They saw activision/Kotick going through a pr nightmare and the stock price took a beating and went to the table with an offer giving Kotick a way out. The side effect is a win for the employees. Not for a second would I believe that ms went to the table with any intention of doing good for the employees or "saving" them which is the sentiment I get from some of the posts here defending Microsoft or the purchase
 

craven68

Member
Jun 20, 2018
4,600
I had bad vibes with Mahler for like a decade dude said in the old place Ori 1 was better than Mario 3D World. so he's a shitbag in real life too cool
I prefer ori 1 to mario 3d world. Sorry..….everyone have different taste ( for him, he was proud of his product).
But it's true that he was always strange on era when he posted.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
If Activision crashes do does Kotick. MS could easily have said no to having Activision games on their platform.
So your solution is letting AB crash to punish kotick? Did you think about the 10.000+ developers while writing this post? Those devs would get punished even harder. Not in terms of millions lost, because they don't have millions. But those devs would all loose their job and these devs have themselves or children to take care off. Solid strategy /s.
 

Azerth

Prophet of Truth - Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,336
Why is this now an Activision thread.

This sucks hopefully things are getting better like jez is saying
 

GamerForever

Member
Oct 27, 2017
391
Why not make the same moral decision to not buy Activision? Saying funding a game and buying a publisher is different, its not. Any company should shy away from buying Activision.
 

Amnixia

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Jan 25, 2018
10,550
Here we go again...

You do realise it's better for those who work there to be bought out by Microsoft rather than working under shitbags for the rest of the time they're there?

Isn't that kinda the point? I took the post as saying Microsoft needs to get rid if a lot of people once the sale is finalized.
 

ToadPacShakur

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,497
Why not make the same moral decision to not buy Activision? Saying funding a game and buying a publisher is different, its not. Any company should shy away from buying Activision.

It is entirely different my god how many times does this have to be explained. With a buyout Microsoft will be able to directly control ActiBlizz and literally be able to make changes that isn't possible to do with a studio they don't own.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
45,259
Why is this now an Activision thread.

This sucks hopefully things are getting better like jez is saying

Because Activision's case was so blatant that everyone felt justified in supporting similar companies because "well, at least its not Activision bad!"
It feels like any discourse around Ubi, Insomniac, Sony etc just isn't taken as seriously. This one in particular hits personally in a way because its one of my favourite game series that helped me deal with traumatic things in reality. Finding out that development caused people pain? Not everyone can "separate the art from the artist" so to speak. I realize that more often than not most people who work on games probably are passionate and not assholes, but the people at the top reap the benefits, always.
 

GamerForever

Member
Oct 27, 2017
391
It is entirely different my god how many times does this have to be explained. With a buyout Microsoft will be able to directly control ActiBlizz and literally be able to make changes that isn't possible to do with a studio they don't own.

So what if there is explanations, my opinion havent changed. Morally no company should touch Activision, rather pressure Activison too get their shit right.
 

Tigerfish419

Member
Oct 28, 2021
4,574
Actual console waring going on in this thread is unbelievable

Is it really unbelievable, I'd be shocked if it didn't happen. People are so obvious with it I'm shocked they don't get action taken against them for using workplace harassment threads and such to console war. In a thread about Microsoft cutting ties with a toxic company, which is a fantastic thing, some of the usual suspects have managed to turn it into Microsoft bad. If anything this proves Microsoft is willing to no deal toxic 2nd party devs even if they make 90+ meta games.

Instead of focusing on the issues at these studios and the people who are being treated like crap they turn it into a big bad Microsoft is two faced!! let's focus on the people in these situations please.