Jeff Grubb : Microsoft didn't fund Moon Studios next game, due to becoming aware of the studios oppressive culture.

[Lukemia SL]

Doesn't surprise in the least given the head of studio.

Would console war and trash talk about PS4 Pro on the old place

Talked trash about Sean Murray and Hideo Kojima here.

Then trashed Microsoft for not putting exclusives on other systems all upon a sudden near to the AB purchase.

This isn't something I would want to know or ever meet.

 

[HellofaMouse]

you DID just buy a company that made an employee commit suicide and made people responsible, richer, you know..

 

[Jimbobsmells]

Kind of glad I didn't bother with Ori.

 

[riotous]

Better questions are: (1) when did microsoft become aware of workplace issues (was it pre blind forest launch, was it before they greenlit will of the wisps), (2) to what degree were they made aware of the issues

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Those are certainly better questions.

I just don't find Activision particularly relevant, it's a purchase of a massive publicly traded publisher w/ subsidiaries, not a contract to publish a game with a small company. MS can actually change Activision, and many of the problematic employees aren't any more/less owners than some random investors off the street.

If they don't change Activision, then the problematic behavior is now on Microsoft. MS had no power to change Moon Studios other than not continuing their relationship.

 

[UraMallas]

Those are certainly better questions.

I just don't find Activision particularly relevant, it's a purchase of a massive publicly traded publisher w/ subsidiaries, not a contract to publish a game with a small company. MS can actually change Activision, and many of the problematic employees aren't any more/less owners than some random investors off the street.

If they don't change Activision, then the problematic behavior is now on Microsoft. MS had no power to change Moon Studios other than not continuing their relationship.

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They definitely took on the responsibility of the toxic work environment that permeates Actiblizz with the purchase and they need to clean it up or it WILL be their fault.

The idea that they are somehow culpable in past transgression at Actiblizz and comparing that to this situation is truly galaxy brain stuff tho. (Which you are not doing btw.)

 

[riotous]

They definitely took on the responsibility of the toxic work environment that permeates Actiblizz with the purchase and they need to clean it up or it WILL be their fault.

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Yeah for sure, not sure if I was clear but my post was meant to imply the same.

MS will be judged on the Activision purchase later.

Having said that, many of the bigger problems are gone, and while they can't say it now since he's under contract all signs point to Kotick being out as both CEO and board member.

Looooots to do of course. Especially if MS is going to keep them separate (separate HR for instance, whereas MS's HR is decent by most accounts)

 

[Sagroth]

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This somehow lowers my opinion of them even further. Not because there's any real ethical difference between the two (abuse is abuse regardless of what team it is levied at), but the unmitigated gall of those two to attack MS's teams as well takes the stupidity and sheer commitment to being @$$holes to a whole other level. What did they think was gonna happen?

 

[Firmus_Anguis]

And I'm more than halfway through Ori 2.....

Fuck this shit, man. Fuck it ALL!

Good on MS though!

 

[Frieza]

Doesn't surprise in the least given the head of studio.

Would console war and trash talk about PS4 Pro on the old place

Talked trash about Sean Murray and Hideo Kojima here.

Then trashed Microsoft for not putting exclusives on other systems all upon a sudden near to the AB purchase.

This isn't something I would want to know or ever meet.

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I remember that he used to trash Sony and the PS4 Pro on the other site and seemingly when MS cuts ties with him he wants to become multiplat lol.

 

[Soliloquy of a Dogge]

you DID just buy a company that made an employee commit suicide and made people responsible, richer, you know..

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Again, resorting to false equivalencies and disingenuous whataboutism is not helpful.

 

[AncientReptileBrain]

Didn't a senior developer at Moon talk a lot of smack in the general direction of Team Cherry (Hollow Knight) in the run-up to Ori 2's release, or am I imagining that?

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i don't remember this specifically, though it might have happened, but this thread is notorious: https://www.resetera.com/threads/wh...d-even-forgive-the-snake-oil-salesmen.372420/

 

[Lukemia SL]

I remember that he used to trash Sony and the PS4 Pro on the other site and seemingly when MS cuts ties with him he wants to become multiplat lol.

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It was a big "lol wat?" Moment for me reading his new stance on Microsoft. I was wondering why the change but this makes all the sense of it.

 

[shintoki]

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Outside of being a PoS, he is also an idiot. Talk about biting the hand that feeds.

 

[riotous]

you DID just buy a company that made an employee commit suicide and made people responsible, richer, you know..

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Kotick didn't even support the sale.

 

[Doc Kelso]

you DID just buy a company that made an employee commit suicide and made people responsible, richer, you know..

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There's a difference between giving someone a sack of money to create something and giving someone a sack of money to purchase something for yourself.

In one example, you don't really have a ton of say in how that money is spent. In the other, you have total control over it.

 

[medyej]

Didn't a senior developer at Moon talk a lot of smack in the general direction of Team Cherry (Hollow Knight) in the run-up to Ori 2's release, or am I imagining that?

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It's likely. Dude was always super salty that HK got so much attention and was really hostile when people pointed out that Ori 2 lifted tons of mechanics straight from HK, instead of just admitting the inspiration and showing respect to other developers.

 

[Det]

I remember that he used to trash Sony and the PS4 Pro on the other site and seemingly when MS cuts ties with him he wants to become multiplat lol.

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Nintendo to the rescue.

Spoiler

/s

 

[HellofaMouse]

Again, resorting to false equivalencies and disingenuous whataboutism is not helpful.

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its a false equivalency in the sense that giving kotick hundreds of millions of dollars is much, much, much worse. yes.

 

[GrrImAFridge]

Outside of being a PoS, he is also an idiot. Talk about biting the hand that feeds.

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The extent to which the Moon execs lashed out makes me wonder whether we're looking at a case of signer's regret. The studio had an appealing indie game, MS came knocking, but it wasn't until MS refused to port Ori 2 to Switch that Moon realised Ori was entirely MS' property. Moon gets frustrated, MS says, "If you can find a publisher willing to fund the port and agree to our revenue terms, fine, but otherwise we're done", iam8bit enters the situation, and Spencer later says that Switch ports "[don't] feel sustainable".

Edit: To clarify, I don't mean to imply that Spencer's comment was spurred by MS' difficulties with Moon, just that it may have been a contributing factor.

 

[Rodelero]

its a false equivalency in the sense that giving kotick hundreds of millions of dollars is much, much, much worse. yes.

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Is there any practical path to Kotick getting what he deserves?

 

[OldDirtyGamer]

Why is MS doing something good have to ve turned into something bad ? Literally all the bulkshit going on in the gaming industry and people still fixate on AB. Lots of people not even willing to give MS the chance to fix it.

Yet when other things are going on at other companies , it's forgotten in a week.

 

[Calvinien]

Wasn't Mahler shitting on Microsoft fairly recently? Makes sense now.

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What did he say?

 

[kruczynski]

I keep reading people asking why, then, MS purchased Activision, but I think that many ignore the fact that Moon Studios is a very small studio, with the developers literally scattered around the world, working from home since the inception of the studio.
Maybe my take is over-simplistic, but while MS can cut the rotten branches of ABK an reform the culture of the studios to a more welcoming and less toxic environment, same can't be said about Moon Studios: in that case MS should cut the roots, not just the branches, and at that point, not much will remain of Moon (unfortunately).
In any case, nobody spends 70 billion dollars to "save" the abused developers, but if change can be a consequence of the acquisition, so be it, it's more than welcome.

ETA: and before anybody says "Eh, but Kotick". Kotick was going to land on his feet in any case. Only thing that can prevent him from leaving the company with a huge bag of money is if somehow he's found legally responsible of wrongdoing (not even sure about that, tho).
There's time to judge MS' work once the acquisition is done, and even after that, it would take years for them to change the toxic culture in ABK; it's not something one can solve in a couple of years.

 

[Nairume]

Nintendo to the rescue.

Spoiler

/s

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He was honestly more aggressive with platform warring against them :V

Remember when he made a huge public spectacle about trying to find the maker of AM2R in a way that was blatantly him trying to cash in on the attention it would get him after nintendo hit am2r with a c&d more than it was about doing a cool thing for an indie dev.

 

[The Hobo]

its a false equivalency in the sense that giving kotick hundreds of millions of dollars is much, much, much worse. yes.

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That's the price of getting Kotick out of Activision. It's unavoidable.

 

[Caiusto]

Update from Jez.

 

[christocolus]

Update from Jez.

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good for them.

 

[Jiraiya]

its a false equivalency in the sense that giving kotick hundreds of millions of dollars is much, much, much worse. yes.

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You more concerned about an inevitability than the root cause possibly being corrected. That's wild. But you know...gotta get those terrible takes in.

 

[cyrribrae]

Not really worse than QD, no. Both are absolutely awful, it's not a competition when both are this bad and no one wants to work at both any more.

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Fair enough!

 

[Wein Cruz]

is this post for real? 🤣🤣

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Are you asking if console wars and concern trolling are real?

 

[noinspiration]

Well that certainly sucks, hopefully they can get their shit together, they've got a great company and a lot of amazing talent... Can't be that hard to reel in the bullshit.

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I think when the bullshit comes from the very top it can be almost impossible to reel in, unfortunately.

 

[tokkun]

The idea that they are somehow culpable in past transgression at Actiblizz and comparing that to this situation is truly galaxy brain stuff tho. (Which you are not doing btw.)

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Of course Microsoft are not culpable for the past transgressions occurring.

However, they did choose to take advantage of a drop in stock price resulting from those transgressions in order to buy the company at a steep discount. Which certainly feels like they exploited the situation for a profit.

 

[UraMallas]

Of course Microsoft are not culpable for the past transgressions occurring.

However, they did choose to take advantage of a drop in stock price resulting from those transgressions in order to buy the company at a steep discount. Which certainly feels like they exploited the situation for a profit.

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Definitely. That is probably why they are a trillion dollar company. Rich get richer.

 

[Sota4077]

Good on Microsoft for doing that. So, about that Activision acquisition...

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What about it? If they own Activision they can enact change. With Moon they had no leverage besides take their money elsewhere and they did. Not sure what your point is here.

 

[Cipherr]

Of course everybody is going to start talking about the Acitvision acquisition again lol

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For real. So disappointing. Not going to pretend I didn't see it coming, but jesus.

 

[cyrribrae]

I don't see how Moon survives any of this, unless this next game is a total departure from what they've made before (it seems so) and is the hugest hit imaginable. What we're seeing here is that Moon is just Thomas and Gennadiy and everyone else is expendable fodder. So what is there to salvage, if the studio can't even play well with external partners? I mean, good to hear from the devs who report things have been better recently, but even the response from Thomas during the internal meeting after VentureBeat asked them questions didn't really inspire confidence.. iono man..

Spoiler: Off topic

Of course Microsoft are not culpable for the past transgressions occurring.

However, they did choose to take advantage of a drop in stock price resulting from those transgressions in order to buy the company at a steep discount. Which certainly feels like they exploited the situation for a profit.

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Undoubtedly. Though, I'd suggest that this moment was significant not just because MS swooped in and took advantage of a low price. But rather that they swooped in to take advantage of a board that was willing to sell the company. Ballmer said just the other day that they had been talking about buying Acti for years (and he stopped being CEO in early 2014). Why would Acti sell when they knew they'd just keep making more money? When that became less guaranteed in the midst of a huge scandal. Correlation, not necessarily causation.

(Even more off topic, I still can't shake the idea that Bobby Kotick may end up walking away with LESS money after the MS acquisition than he would have if he had just quit before the scandal, and maybe even if he had quit after the scandal. That's probably not actually true, but the document that Acti filed with the SEC seems to suggest his severance package with MS dropped from like 260m or whatever to 14.5m, not the 290m that his prior Activision contract said. I mean, iono... but.. just saying. IF Bobby ends up with less money at the end of this, will people support the acquisition then? lol)

 

[Iron Eddie]

Good on Microsoft for doing that. So, about that Activision acquisition...

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What about it? They will now be under Microsoft's watch once the deal passes. You can't do a cleanup before the deal closes but of course you knew that already.

Phil is not going to have this stuff be handled the same way Bobby did. Bobby's main goal was profits and pleasing the board. That is not what Satya Nadella is asking of Phil.

 

[Last_colossi]

I'm just fucking tired.

 

[Sacul64]

I don't see how Moon survives any of this, unless this next game is a total departure from what they've made before (it seems so) and is the hugest hit imaginable. What we're seeing here is that Moon is just Thomas and Gennadiy and everyone else is expendable fodder. So what is there to salvage, if the studio can't even play well with external partners? I mean, good to hear from the devs who report things have been better recently, but even the response from Thomas during the internal meeting after VentureBeat asked them questions didn't really inspire confidence.. iono man..

Spoiler: Off topic

Undoubtedly. Though, I'd suggest that this moment was significant not just because MS swooped in and took advantage of a low price. But rather that they swooped in to take advantage of a board that was willing to sell the company. Ballmer said just the other day that they had been talking about buying Acti for years (and he stopped being CEO in early 2014). Why would Acti sell when they knew they'd just keep making more money? When that became less guaranteed in the midst of a huge scandal. Correlation, not necessarily causation.

(Even more off topic, I still can't shake the idea that Bobby Kotick may end up walking away with LESS money after the MS acquisition than he would have if he had just quit before the scandal, and maybe even if he had quit after the scandal. That's probably not actually true, but the document that Acti filed with the SEC seems to suggest his severance package with MS dropped from like 260m or whatever to 14.5m, not the 290m that his prior Activision contract said. I mean, iono... but.. just saying. IF Bobby ends up with less money at the end of this, will people support the acquisition then? lol)

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Spoiler: off topic

Of course they wont, some will stop using the excuse about kotics money while others will just keep up the old claims and just not respond to any evidence of it not being true.

 

[Lukar]

its a false equivalency in the sense that giving kotick hundreds of millions of dollars is much, much, much worse. yes.

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Please let me know which of these two scenarios you find to be better:

1. Microsoft purchases Activision Blizzard, pays Kotick to fuck off once the acquisition is complete, and commits to bringing about meaningful and better change in AB's studios.
2. Microsoft does not purchase Activision Blizzard, Kotick and his kind remain at the company (because they are not going to face justice or be forced out without still making a lot of money, that much is clear), and AB remains a shitty place to work at, with only the bare minimum of effort put in to making things better.

 

[Ambient80]

I love how MS doing a good thing in telling a toxic studio they used to partner with to fuck off is somehow turned into MS being shitty because they *bought* a shitty publisher. Two completely different situations, but a couple of posters managed to steer the thread in that direction.

 

[Yuntu]

lol

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Anything else to add?

Person I replied to asked for examples.

 

[Lausebub]

Eidos Montreal would be an example. Its a good place to work at from what we know. 4 day weeks, trying to avoid crunch (phrasing it that way because I dont work there). Outside of SE screwing MD up we dont hear anything bad from em to my memory.

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I don't think any us can say if they are a good place to work at, if you haven't worked there or heared directly from people working there. All we know is what the company wants us to know and they are not going to tell us about the bad stuff that is or isn't going on there.

 

[Yuntu]

I don't think any us can say if they are a good place to work at, if you haven't worked there or heared directly from people working there. All we know is what the company wants us to know and they are not going to tell us about the bad stuff that is or isn't going on there.

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Of course. We can only assume. I don't want to pretend I know how it is for real, don't get me wrong in that regard. I just want to remain hopeful there are good big studios out there to work for.

 

[Wordstar]

i knew something was not right with this guy after getting into it with him after the launch of will of the wisps. Although one of my favorite games, his true charakter shines through whenever it can. I could always see though the bullshit.

 

[JT_77]

It's depressing how many bros there are in the video game industry

 

[Soj]

Imagine being so toxic that people no longer want to do business with you even though your games are almost universally acclaimed. Fucking pathetic.

 

[ToadPacShakur]

I love how MS doing a good thing in telling a toxic studio they used to partner with to fuck off is somehow turned into MS being shitty because they *bought* a shitty publisher. Two completely different situations, but a couple of posters managed to steer the thread in that direction.

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And if anything, how they handled the Moon situation SHOULD say something good about how they'll handle ActiBlizz.

I mean shit, I'm fairly certain any of the devs/publishers that have had stories come out about them the past few months would LOVE if their biggest reported issue was about how they were too lenient with a studio and had to soft reboot a project…

 

[Porcine prophet]

Then I guess MS shouldn't purchase Activision? I mean, sure stand up to Moon. But too much money not to turn away a AAA company. A bit two faced no?

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its a false equivalency in the sense that giving kotick hundreds of millions of dollars is much, much, much worse. yes.

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I mean, MS has immensly more to gain from the AB acquisition and fix then they would with moon. This isnt a 1 to 1 as a result.

Also, when you look at all of their work, they only have like 8 consistent employees. Much of their team is essentially contract work and any "permanent" position has a near 100% turnover rate. Idk why Xbox would even consider purchasing a studio like that. So again, bringing up AB in this conversation is in bad faith and only aimed at putting Xbox in the wrong

 

[Scottoest]

its a false equivalency in the sense that giving kotick hundreds of millions of dollars is much, much, much worse. yes.

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I keep seeing a few people say this but no one is actually elaborating on what the remotely realistic alternative is supposed to be, based on the facts of the situation.

Aside from the empty victory of MS's name not technically being on the check (which it may well not be anyway, depending on when precisely Kotick makes his exit), Bobby is either getting hundreds of millions of dollars to leave - or he's staying, and also getting hundreds of millions of dollars. His contract is terrible, but no amount of justified moral outrage changes what the actual words say on it.

Short of an unexpected criminal indictment (which would be welcomed by any corporation inheriting Kotick's contract, since they could probably fire him for cause at that point), the only "justice" you're likely to see here is the cessation of further harm by Kotick via his golden parachute off the plane. It's a fucking awful situation that shines a light on the sick disparity in "justice" in the United States for white-collar business criminal assholes, but it's the situation.

If people are against the acquisition that's fine, and I harbour some trepidation of my own. But just... say that. Microsoft could walk away from the entire thing tomorrow (figuratively, I don't know if legally they actually could now) and Bobby is still going to get his money.