jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
29,563
Microsoft literally just did this (One X was $299 before it was discontinued), so I wouldn't put it past Sony to do it too.
I swear, its like the Series prices were not just confirmed....

Sony is gonna try their best to hit 399. Jim Ryan talking about value means the PS5 could be 499. Whatever it is, its gonna be more than 399.

How many next gen consoles cost more than the previous gen counterparts?

The last time that happened IIRC was PS3 and XBO.

Ppl plz. If Sony comes in at 499, 449 or 399, its ok. MS will be fine.

PS5 and XSX have roughly the same BOM. PS5 DE cuts about $20 off that. At $399, Sony would be would be taking a loss of $80+ on each PS5 DE.
If they shave 20 off the BOM..wouldn't the retail price be lower regardless?

And no, we don't have a firm number for XSX. The estimate was up to 520, then down to 460.

The PS5 has always been 450 for the estimate.
That people like you are so quick to run down options is really lame.
For pointing out facts? lol. Its that price because of the specs.

Unless you think the Series S cost the same amount as the Series X, PS5 to build....

So quick to run down options? Alrighty then....
 

bcatwilly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483
This is interesting for sure now that Xbox prices are out there. Sony is in a really interesting position here on pricing choices with the PS5DE in particular, as it is pretty clear from their solid fan base sentiment that they will pretty much buy the next gen console at whatever price is put out there. So they are really leaving potentially a lot of money on the table as a business if they get too aggressive right at launch on pricing if they don't have to. I do think that they could consider going as low as $399 for the PS5DE with what would likely be some big losses, but it would be a little odd for your customers to charge $100 more for example just to get a disc drive. If nothing else it would certainly be ironic if Sony as the current industry leader ended up putting the biggest dent into the future of physical media considering that they started the current generation mocking Xbox about used games and such.
 

Deleted member 5028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,724
I swear, its like the Series prices were not just confirmed....

Sony is gonna try their best to hit 399. Jim Ryan talking about value means the PS5 could be 499. Whatever it is, its gonna be more than 399.

How many next gen consoles cost more than the previous gen counterparts?

The last time that happened IIRC was PS3 and XBO.

Ppl plz. It Sony comes in at 499, 449 or 399, its ok. MS will be fine.


If they shave 20 off the BOM..wouldn't the retail price be lower regardless?

And no, we don't have a firm number for XSX. The estimate was up to 520, then down to 460.

The PS5 has always been 450 for the estimate.

For pointing out facts? lol. Its that price because of the specs.

Unless you think the Series S cost the same amount as the Series X, PS5 do build....

So quick to run down options? Alrighty then....
Shitting on it and thinking that its going to fail due to specs is dumb. This is marketed towards a specific type of user
 

Axel Stone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
2,771
And round and round we go with this "but the DE console only costs 20$ less"

No, it's not just 20 bucks. It's removing you the option to buy physical copies, its removing you the option to buy used games, it's removing you the option of playing PS4 titles you own on physical. And on the other hand, its giving Sony full advantage on all games you actually buy on that console cuz you're "forced" to use the PSN store. You think all of this is only worth 20$?

Why are we still talking in literal terms, like the only value difference of the PS5 and PS5DE is the 20$ from the drive?
Sony is not gonna convince anyone to get a disk-less PS5 for a 20$ difference. I doubt that they will convince a lot of people with just a 50$ difference as well.

The problem with this is that people are switching to digital anyway without any need for additional subsidisation to do so. A significant number of the people who pick up the DE would likely have barely touched physical discs next gen anyway, so you're just increasing your losses on many of your console sales.

The proportion of people who would switch away from physical to purely digital to save $100 is the question, and whether that is enough people buying enough games to cover the additional losses incurred by giving greater discounts to those who may never have played a game off disc in the first place.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,570
Yeah that is speculation from September 2013, IHS firm actually broke the console down in November 2013 after it released and quantified the actual estimated cost for manufacturing and determined it was actually probably profitable for Sony.



Hi, even if you think they can make up some money from digital exclusion, it's still an $80+ loss on the console. And in my previous posts, I explained why I don't personally agree with that hypothesis that they 'make it up' through digital.
Like I said production costs aren't total costs, if it cost x just to make, it'll cost more by the time it's on the shelves. The consoles after being built need to then be moved around the world, retailers need their cut, plenty more logistics etc.
 

Pyro

God help us the mods are making weekend threads
Member
Jul 30, 2018
14,589
United States
Wouldn't surprise me if they are. Sony though hasn't sold hardware at a loss in a while and I can't imagine they want to, especially with all the Jim Ryan talk about "offering value".
 

Deleted member 8688

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
731
It will be $499 for the disc version. I don't think there should be any doubt about that.

The only real question is where the DE version lands, $399 or $449. My guess is Series S will push them to $399.

Also this isn't commonly discussed but BC is a factor in hardware pricing, not because the tech is expensive but because it can have a negative effect on new game sales. The worst case scenario for the platform holders is people buying loss leader hardware to play games they already own. There will be less appetite for taking a big loss on the hardware for this reason.
 

Phoenix Down

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
739
Seriously folks, the Xbox Series Series S is so cheap, I wouldn't be surprised if people start buying them for their pets to play with.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,498
I wonder what Series X's actual BOM is if they're still taking losses at $500? Danial estimated a while ago that it could be as high as 520 but I wouldn't be surprised if it was a lot higher than that.

Everyone waxes lyrical about BOM but there are a ton of other costs related to selling physical products (like consoles) beyond the simple manufacturing and parts. Taxes, freighting your consoles around the world, retail cuts, the actual cost of R&D etc are all costs that they need to factor in to.
 

Zukuu

Member
Oct 30, 2017
6,809
Well these will be sold for 5+ years. It'll will be sold at a profit 1 or 2 years into the generation.
 

Era Uma Vez

Member
Feb 5, 2020
3,344
The problem with this is that people are switching to digital anyway without any need for additional subsidisation to do so. A significant number of the people who pick up the DE would likely have barely touched physical discs next gen anyway, so you're just increasing your losses on many of your console sales.

The proportion of people who would switch away from physical to purely digital to save $100 is the question, and whether that is enough people buying enough games to cover the additional losses incurred by giving greater discounts to those who may never have played a game off disc in the first place.
I dont think the Digital Edition was made to throw a bone to the digital only consumers. Why would Sony do that? Like you said, there are a lot of people already full digital, even with the disc option, so what's the point of the Digital Edition?
The point is they want those on the fence. Those who are like "meh, I'll buy a PS5 next year", those who are like "500$ is a little steep", those who are like "I can get a PS5, but there's a 300$ XBox right there who also plays Warzone, Fortnite, Apex."

How well are they gonna do that with 450$? Specially, like someone above said, with games being sold at 60/70$.
You can't even say that if you buy the Digital, you can use the money saved to buy a title on the PS5 store. I mean, hell, the difference doesnt even let you get a PS+ sub for a year.
 

blodtann

Member
Jun 7, 2018
519
The challenge with Sony is that they cannot offset a large loss on the console with a revenue recurring subscriber base (Aka gamepass). I think they will go higher in price than MS.
 
Jeffrrey Grubb on sonys pricing.

JeffGubb

Giant Bomb
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
844
So JEFFREY GRUBB have you heard anything regarding the ps5 prices? Are sony willing to take simmilar losses to compete?

Sony is absolutely willing to take a similar loss. It knows that is part of launching a new generation. But I don't think it wants to lose a dollar more than it has to, and I'm sure there are some at Sony who believe it can get away with a higher price. I'm on the edge of my seat.
 

xenonium

Member
Apr 3, 2020
257
The SX is approximately 84% better value if you care about TF per dollar. Triple the power for less than double the price? Can you imagine if nVidia GPUs worked like that? :D



$399 for DE, $499 for Disc console. Easy peasy.

This might be the case if a console was exactly the same thing as a graphics card. There are a few other parts though...
 

Axel Stone

Member
Jan 10, 2020
2,771
I dont think the Digital Edition was made to throw a bone to the digital only consumers. Why would Sony do that? Like you said, there are a lot of people already full digital, even with the disc option, so what's the point of the Digital Edition?
The point is they want those on the fence. Those who are like "meh, I'll buy a PS5 next year", those who are like "500$ is a little steep", those who are like "I can get a PS5, but there's a 300$ XBox right there who also plays Warzone, Fortnite, Apex."

How well are they gonna do that with 450$? Specially, like someone above said, with games being sold at 60/70$.
You can't even say that if you buy the Digital, you can use the money saved to buy a title on the PS5 store. I mean, hell, the difference doesnt even let you get a PS+ sub for a year.

I get where you're coming from, but honestly, I'd go all digital at $50 less because I'm already all digital, the convenience is what wins it for me.

If Sony decided to lose an extra $50 by discounting the digital version even more, they aren't making it back through any change in my buying habits, so the question becomes how many other people's buying habits have to change for Sony to make back that additional $50 loss they've made on me?

The maths may well work out overall with enough people switching, but it's definitely not as simple as saying that they can have a larger discount on the digital version because they'll make more through digital sales because that won't always be the case, and may not even be the case for the majority of people who buy the digital console seeing as we're already at over 50% digital purchases.
 

Era Uma Vez

Member
Feb 5, 2020
3,344
I get where you're coming from, but honestly, I'd go all digital at $50 less because I'm already all digital, the convenience is what wins it for me.

If Sony decided to lose an extra $50 by discounting the digital version even more, they aren't making it back through any change in my buying habits, so the question becomes how many other people's buying habits have to change for Sony to make back that additional $50 loss they've made on me?

The maths may well work out overall with enough people switching, but it's definitely not as simple as saying that they can have a larger discount on the digital version because they'll make more through digital sales because that won't always be the case, and may not even be the case for the majority of people who buy the digital console seeing as we're already at over 50% digital purchases.
It's one of those "only time will tell". But at the end of the day, they know, better than anyone, the costs, the profits, they have been crunching numbers for the last months/years, so it is what it is.



And also:

Sony is absolutely willing to take a similar loss. It knows that is part of launching a new generation. But I don't think it wants to lose a dollar more than it has to, and I'm sure there are some at Sony who believe it can get away with a higher price. I'm on the edge of my seat.
👀 👀 👀 👀 👀
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
Sony is absolutely willing to take a similar loss. It knows that is part of launching a new generation. But I don't think it wants to lose a dollar more than it has to, and I'm sure there are some at Sony who believe it can get away with a higher price. I'm on the edge of my seat.
I'm sure this sort of goes for any company really.

It's why the people who have for months been saying how both companies have been holding off on giving the prices is because they are ridiculously expensive and I have lost count of how many times I have read someone say "there is no way the ps5 or xsx will be lower than 599, anyone thinking so is delusional" always made me laugh.

Both companies have a price point they would ideally sell at where they don't lose any money but each include enough wiggle room in case they need to be competitive. With covid making things much more difficult, it delayed both companies into irregular announcement schedules and allowed them to hold out to play chicken so they could price accordingly.

I have been saying ever since the reveal that the ps5 will be 499 and the Same will be 399. The fact that xsx, the console that is meant to cost more to produce is 499 makes it clear that the ps5 will also be that at most.
 

Nolbertos

Member
Dec 9, 2017
3,377
No, ps4 was pure profit day one.

I don't know if Kaz was lying or misunderstood the question coyly. I had a friend at that time working at Sony Marketing and he told me that the PS4 was sold at loss during the 1st year. They made it up with PSN subscriptions and people buying there games. Since I trust my friend more than Kaz, I'll take his word for it over what Kaz stated in the press. But even then, alot of articles stated and BOM showed Sony took a loss initially on the PS4
 
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Marano

Marano

Member
Mar 30, 2018
4,893
Rio de Janeiro
Sony is absolutely willing to take a similar loss. It knows that is part of launching a new generation. But I don't think it wants to lose a dollar more than it has to, and I'm sure there are some at Sony who believe it can get away with a higher price. I'm on the edge of my seat.
So are most people, I dont think theyll hold back longer than this month though.
 

FuturusX

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,816
Sony has an audience that wants to stay with them, they just have to make sure to not give them a reason to abandon ship. PS4 owners want to become PS5 owners, for the most part.

A $400 Digital version which is a $100 more than the Series S is probably the right play. $50 would be the sweetest of sweet spot, but probably not possible, or perhaps needed.

A $100 premium between their cheapest option but with no technical compromise ( effectively the same machine as the disc version) is very compelling, especially if you are already in the ecosystem.

The Digital Edition was always going to be their answer to the Series S, the question is how much more can you set the price of the Digital Edition to stay within tolerance of price sensitive gamers.

GamePass is a whole other problem, which they are countering with excellent AAA production value heavy games. But how sustainable that can be in a market is clearly trending towards cost sensitivity, remains to be seen.

I would guess Sony has a GamePass-like model in the works should 1 or 2 years into the next gen things are going south. The model is easy to replicate, but it would signal a defeat of their well establish model. Change is hard.
 

dheophe

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
342
Xbox series launch price is aggressive. The problem with Microsoft now is launch games.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,148
I don't know if Kaz was lying or misunderstood the question coyly. I had a friend at that time working at Sony Marketing and he told me that the PS4 was sold at loss during the 1st year. They made it up with gamepass subscriptions and people buying there games. Since I trust my friend more than Kaz, I'll take his word for it over what Kaz stated in the press. But even then, alot of articles stated and BOM showed Sony took a loss initially on the PS4
Kaz Hirai made that statement at a corporate strategy meeting for investors and the like, it would be stupid of him to make such a false statement on such a public stage and directly to investors of his company. And I believe a CEO is in a better position to understand the profitability of a division he used to be the head of, no offense to your friend, maybe they sold much more games and subscriptions to make the hardware profitable earlier than they expected. I remember an article from Shu saying even they at Sony didn't know why the console was selling so well.
 

Psychotext

Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,796
Kaz Hirai made that statement at a corporate strategy meeting for investors and the like, it would be stupid of him to make such a false statement on such a public stage and directly to investors of his company. And I believe a CEO is in a better position to understand the profitability of a division he used to be the head of, no offense to your friend, maybe they sold much more games and subscriptions to make the hardware profitable earlier than they expected. I remember an article from Shu saying even they at Sony didn't know why the console was selling so well.
What you're saying doesn't differ from what Nolbertos said. The hardware itself would have been losing money still at the point Kaz made the statement, but factoring in the sales of games etc could have potentially gotten each unit to break even or better.
 

Dirtyshubb

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,555
UK
What you're saying doesn't differ from what Nolbertos said. The hardware itself would have been losing money still at the point Kaz made the statement, but factoring in the sales of games etc could have potentially gotten each unit to break even or better.
But that's exactly what people have been saying, the PS4 was sold at a loss and it required a game and/or ps plus sub to break even.
 

Zachary_Games

Member
Jul 31, 2020
2,991
Everyone waxes lyrical about BOM but there are a ton of other costs related to selling physical products (like consoles) beyond the simple manufacturing and parts. Taxes, freighting your consoles around the world, retail cuts, the actual cost of R&D etc are all costs that they need to factor in to.

I don't remember where I read this, but I've seen analysts use $70 for distribution costs as baseline number.

BoM + Distro Costs roughly = COGS
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,148
What you're saying doesn't differ from what Nolbertos said. The hardware itself would have been losing money still at the point Kaz made the statement, but factoring in the sales of games etc could have potentially gotten each unit to break even or better.
I re read the statement and Kaz said "PS4 is also already contributing profit on a hardware unit basis". My understanding of that statement was each standalone console sold netted them a profit without games included in the calculus.

Here is the source I got it from, maybe there's some legalese language I'm missing.
www.polygon.com

Sony CEO Kaz Hirai says PS4 is already profitable

The PlayStation 4 is already profitable for Sony on a hardware unit basis, president and CEO Kazuo Hirai announced during its corporate strategy meeting this week. "It's been a hugely successful...
 
Nov 24, 2017
62


Yeah I figured these consoles cost a lot more than what theyll be selling for, they want to make money on software sales and subscriptions, especially with the s, since every transaction there will be digital so theyll get a bigger cut, makes sense they are taking a bigger loss on that one.

Curious if Sony is also willing to take a loss on ps5(especially digital edition following the same logic), and what nintendo does to compete with the new switch and how they price it.

Thoughts?


Sigh.... I assume he has no business education, in no world would anyone with any business education talk about loss like this. For one the margins are kept secret, the component costs along with potential discounts from suppliers are under NDA, patent discounts are under ... NDA. lazy post tweet by him with no substance. Its easy for him to make such a lazy post because we will never know because that stuff is never revealed unless its through a lawsuit.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Well now it's Sony's turn to see if they too would be willing to take a loss. $499 is probably break even, maybe a few dollars profit.
 

kubev

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,546
California
Simple. You make more money on software than hardware. The more customers you have, the more potential revenue you can earn. It's not Sony's most profitable division because of the hardware alone. The hardware is just a means for them to extract money out of you through software and services. It's in Sony's best interest to convert as many PS4 owners to PS5 as quickly as possible. I'm not saying that PS5 will be significantly less than XSX. It will probably cost the same, but since they now know the XSX price, it would be insane for them to charge more than that. For some reason some people are predicting that PS5 will cost more, even ridiculous pricing as high as $600, and that makes absolutely no sense to me.
Context matters. Honestly, some of what you say makes more or less sense depending on the presence (or lack of) context.

Sure, you'll make more money on software than on hardware, but that doesn't mean you need to take a loss on the hardware. There's a reason why Nintendo doesn't take a loss on hardware in most cases. I mean, look at the new audience that Nintendo appealed to with Wii. Huge audience, sure, but too many members of that new audience only purchased Wii for Wii Sports. You know, the pack-in game. Had Nintendo sold Wii at a loss, that new audience would've been more of a negative than a positive. Despite Nintendo making a lot of money on Wii, in the end, that new audience was still looked at as somewhat of a negative, not because of lost money but because of a poor attach rate and a lack of dedication from that audience. No company that's taking a loss on hardware and doesn't have a decent stable of services wants that segment of the audience.

Sony doesn't have the same range of services that Microsoft does. You may want to compare PlayStation Plus to Xbox LIVE Gold, and you may want to compare PlayStation Now to Xbox Game Pass Ultimate, but Sony's services aren't evolving as Microsoft's are to create more of a value proposition, let alone a revenue stream. Plus, Microsoft's services aren't even limited to consumers, as Azure (which Sony makes use of, FYI) ensures a robust cloud infrastructure that a lot of developers use, which puts Microsoft in a much better position to monetize its business from more angles (especially considering the popularity of Games as a Service).

Now, regarding $599 being a 'ridiculous' price, that's not a ridiculous price for PlayStation 5 OR Xbox Series X, provided they're both the same price. I mean, they're competing systems, so too much of a price disparity would mean that there's some sort of catch, right? Obviously, Microsoft shot the possibility of two competing $599 consoles to Hell, and things are complicated now. I truly believe that Sony wants to charge $599 for SOMETHING, and I don't think that's an option in either sense anymore.

If Sony charges $599 for PlayStation 5, then PlayStation 5 DE's pricing - at best - will be $499. Guess what: $499 just became the 'ridiculous' price in this scenario, because Sony's compromised SKU isn't even in the same ballpark as Microsoft's compromised SKU. Honestly, even $499 and $399 would probably go down similarly in this scenario, as the response to the now 'ridiculous' $399 price would be that Sony should've done more to decrease the bill of materials to make it a more competitive console. That said, PlayStation 5 DE doesn't look quite as bad in the $499/$399 scenario, but Sony's likely taking a much larger loss on what'll end up being the more popular SKU. Sure, that's true of Xbox Series S, as well, but Microsoft isn't pushing hardware as hard as or in the same fashion as Sony.

If Sony charges $599 for PlayStation 5 DE, then yeah, $599 becomes the 'ridiculous' price, whereas $649 for PlayStation 5 is just the premium model's price. They're both terrible prices compared to the competition, but I do think this was in the cards at some point. If we use $499 and $549 instead, then it's the same deal. And I want to clarify that both prices are terrible because of Sony's poor planning, not because they're both higher. They just offer less flexibility.

When you look back, PlayStation 3's launch price only looked bad relative to Xbox 360's launch price, just as Xbox One's launch price only looked bad relative to PlayStation 4's launch price. Everything's relative, but Microsoft's reasoning for pricing its console is completely different from Sony's.
 

Based0ne

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,258
USA
Hasn't this always been the case with any system that has released? If I remember correctly the only system that was cost effective was the Gamecube which they sold at neither a loss or a profit.
 

dabbling

Member
Dec 3, 2018
413
Hasn't this always been the case with any system that has released? If I remember correctly the only system that was cost effective was the Gamecube which they sold at neither a loss or a profit.

Nintendo almost always profits on each console sale from launch. I believe the 3DS is the only recent exception and even that was only sold at a loss after the aggressive early price cut.
 

Psychotext

Member
Oct 30, 2017
16,796
I re read the statement and Kaz said "PS4 is also already contributing profit on a hardware unit basis". My understanding of that statement was each standalone console sold netted them a profit without games included in the calculus.

Here is the source I got it from, maybe there's some legalese language I'm missing.
www.polygon.com

Sony CEO Kaz Hirai says PS4 is already profitable

The PlayStation 4 is already profitable for Sony on a hardware unit basis, president and CEO Kazuo Hirai announced during its corporate strategy meeting this week. "It's been a hugely successful...
Yeah, it's hard to argue with that based on how it's stated.
 

Vinc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,420
I think MS is likely losing 100+ bucks on every Series S they sell.

I think they're losing 50+ on Series X

I think Sony wanted a similar set up for PS5, but I bet PS5 DE will lose a bit more than they had planned, by selling at 399 instead.of 449.
 

Iron Eddie

Banned
Nov 25, 2019
9,812
Sony has an audience that wants to stay with them, they just have to make sure to not give them a reason to abandon ship. PS4 owners want to become PS5 owners, for the most part.

A $400 Digital version which is a $100 more than the Series S is probably the right play. $50 would be the sweetest of sweet spot, but probably not possible, or perhaps needed.

A $100 premium between their cheapest option but with no technical compromise ( effectively the same machine as the disc version) is very compelling, especially if you are already in the ecosystem.

The Digital Edition was always going to be their answer to the Series S, the question is how much more can you set the price of the Digital Edition to stay within tolerance of price sensitive gamers.

GamePass is a whole other problem, which they are countering with excellent AAA production value heavy games. But how sustainable that can be in a market is clearly trending towards cost sensitivity, remains to be seen.

I would guess Sony has a GamePass-like model in the works should 1 or 2 years into the next gen things are going south. The model is easy to replicate, but it would signal a defeat of their well establish model. Change is hard.
I've said many times Sony would really love to get to that $399 price, especially now. There is some damage work at play though because how can you make a compelling argument that the PS5 regular should be $100 more (if the disk itself only adds $30 to the costs) unless the SSD is smaller for the digital like the Series S is? The design isn't really any smaller for the digital, in fact it looks better without the bulge.

Sony wants to keep Playstation fans but at the same time they don't want to poke the bear and promote digital too much. That will also upset retailers which maybe Sony doesn't care about any longber, as seen by their new loyalty plan to pre-order. But a lot of the loyal fans also prefer physical and now you are suggesting they need to pay a premium?

If Sony really wanted to go for the jugular they would price the PS5 at $449 and the digital at $399. That would be the best case scenario and everyone would be happy. But there would be losses on the hardware for Sony.
 

TaterTots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,993
I can imagine. $299 for a 1440p machine that plays next gen games is pretty low. NMVE ssd's aren't exactly cheap either. Even with the small ones.

What's even more crazy is not long after they are out there will be sales for it. Wouldn't doubt if you could grab one for $249 somewhere.
 

RivalGT

Member
Dec 13, 2017
6,491
My guess is both XSS and PS5 digital are taking a $100-120 loss on each system, XSX and PS5 are likely in the $30-60 range. It all really depends on what the BOM+manufacturing is for these systems. The rumor for PS5 is $450 to $460.