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Jillian Micheals " Avoid the Keto Diet at all costs" - Offers little evidence and analysis

Oct 27, 2017
9,839
Keto doesn't do that. It drastically changed your intake. You may as well, ya know, do the same amount of research and eat better overall.
I have no idea what you're talking about because it definitely does that. When i tried it out I had to figure out alternatives to what I was eating before, in terms of carb substitutes and eating more healthy fats and greens. Even though it wasn't for me, I still eat a number of those same foods, just not as strictly. And I'm sure that's the case for lots of people

Managing intake of macros (i.e. not eating shit tons of carbs)
Keto literally requires you to manage you macro intake. And again, even for people who aren't on keto it's a diet that at least makes you aware of alternate recipes and substitutes for food (not that keto alone does that, all diets do)
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,838
He's not wrong. You can lose weight eating nothing but McDonalds and Twinkies if you end up lowering your overall calorie intake.
You can
Because Keto isn't going to stop habits like:

Over Eating
Managing intake of macros (i.e. not eating shit tons of carbs)
Creating a balanced diet
Cooking a balanced diet
How macros impact or compliment a workout plan

Again, it's not bad that you lost weight, but you shouldn't convince yourself that you've gained all the tools necessary to at any point abandon the diet and maintain your current weight. Furthermore, what I am a proponent for isn't a diet. It is simply understanding the food that you are consuming and how it impacts your body. Keto teaches you what NOT to eat, but it doesn't teach you how you can balance those things to achieve results or lead a healthy lifestyle. I'm not suggesting that Keto is unhealthy, but I am suggesting that most people on keto have almost no idea what it would mean to leave keto and balance their diet accordingly.

Again: Keto is good for very specific uses and scenarios, but it should not be a lifestyle for anyone.
Overeating?

One of Keto's strongest advantages is appetite control. This has been studied. And cooking, most of the staple Keto foods require cooking. Carbs focused foods are mega easy to make. Rice, pasta, etc. But most people cannot make roast chicken.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,913
I think the problem is people on Keto aren't necessarily addressing other eating disorders etc;. "Oh I can't have bread but let me eat a pound of cheese, 3 steaks, and some bacon to feel full".

Also, the diet should only be for individuals who's bodies don't regulate insulin properly. Not this huge crash/fad diet where people are using it as a shortcut to drop pounds quickly.
The entire point is you don't eat that much because your body is telling you that you are full on less food than you would feel if you were eating carbs.
 
Nov 13, 2017
1,280
Londinium
There's not much in that regard for Keto specifically, It's not like there isn't a precedent with similar low carb high protein diets.

For example:
http://annals.org/aim/article-abstr...tality-two-cohort?volume=153&issue=5&page=289
http://web.archive.org/web/20120125...nsmedicine.org/diabetes/news/highprotein.html

Again, the Keto can absolutely work to lose weight, but there are absolutely issues with it.
The second of those studies is for people with diabetes, which is a bit different.

The first acknowledges these limitations:

“Diet and lifestyle characteristics were assessed with some degree of error. Sensitivity analyses indicated that results were probably not substantively affected by residual confounding or an unmeasured confounder. Participants were not a representative sample of the U.S. population.”

I would agree that there should be longer term studies of course, but I just don’t get this POV you have of ‘they Will definitely show it’s bad for you in the long term’. The assumption that it’s unhealthy just because it prioritises fat I think just shows how fat has been successfully demonised by the food industry

Like I say, you don’t eat a kilo of bacon every day. I eat far more vegetables and ‘healthy fats’ (fish etc) than people I know on normal diets.
 

8byte

Banned
Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,581
Kansas
You can

Overeating?

One of Keto's strongest advantages is appetite control. This has been studied. And cooking, most of the staple Keto foods require cooking. Carbs focused foods are mega easy to make. Rice, pasta, etc. But most people cannot make roast chicken.
Appetite control through eating fatty filling foods and fiber. If that diet changes, there are no habits built or knowledge that can reinforce that appetite control, and overeating returns. Just because your diet makes you feel full at a certain point doesn't mean that you've learned to change your eating habits, it just means you feel fuller faster.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,792
I've been on keto for 8 years now, and in that time I haven't been sick (other than catching the flu from my son) or even really hungry at all. I also haven't been tired in the sense of feeling run down out of nowhere. Also, my bloodwork and all physical results have been flawless during the entire 8 years.

That said, the first month or so can be difficult, but once you're through it, you won't even want to eat shit like fries or bread anymore. The funniest thing to me is if I am served a regular Coke instead of a Diet Coke by accident. I used to drink that stuff like crazy, but now, it's like I'm trying to drink a glass of maple syrup.

It's also telling that people like to use extreme examples to make the keto diet look ridiculous. They say "oh ho, so you're telling me that a pound of cheese and a Big Gulp of bacon grease is a great meal? Oh ho!" but it's a straw man. The average meal if you're doing this diet correctly is going to be based around a fattier meat item (salmon, chicken thighs, eggs, steak, pork, etc) and a heap of green vegetables (broccoli, spinach, etc.) Throw in avocados, low-sugar fruits like berries, nuts, cheese and yogurt, etc... Like, what in the world is unhealthy about that compared to the same thing but with a wad of rice on the side?
 
Nov 13, 2017
1,280
Londinium
Over Eating
Managing intake of macros (i.e. not eating shit tons of carbs)
Creating a balanced diet
Cooking a balanced diet
How macros impact or compliment a workout plan
It helps with all of those tho:

You don’t over eat because you get full quicker and stay full for longer

The whole point of it it’s managing carbs?

You’re much more aware of the different macros in your meals and how to balance them
 
Oh I was unaware we were specifically ranking the best diet ever. You specifically refuted the point that keto doesn't make you eat better. Except that it does because I eat better on keto.
It doesn't. It doesn't magically make someone who wants a crash cruise to lose 50lbs. You need data to support how easy it is for keto to change the average person's eating habits. Someone who is invested in changing their eatting habits will more likely benefit from just a general food change and research. Keto is for those who want to lose pounds quick.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,687
It doesn't. It doesn't magically make someone who wants a crash cruise to lose 50lbs. You need data to support how easy it is for keto to change the average person's eating habits. Someone who is invested in changing their eatting habits will more likely benefit from just a general food change and research. Keto is for those who want to lose pounds quick.
Researching the keto diet lead me to a general food change. I don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge this.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,913
I don't particularly disagree with her, and she obviously states her reasons why she thinks this (OP is totally not biased).

Also always throws me off how defensive a lot of people are when it comes to keto diets (and paleo also).
It's really weird. People like me do keto and lose nearly a person's worth of weight in a short time and people want to come out if the wood works to tell you how "bad" it is for you and to just CICO with no actual research into the diet itself. Ffs we just had someone call it a "new diet" when it's been around for 100 years. Uneducated people love to throw their 2 cents in whenever someone achieves something with a "well ACKSHUALLY" stuff and it's hilarious.

I also feel that fellow fatso's see the easy progress and instead of using that as motivation to no longer be a fatso they would rather attack the process to feel superior
 
Researching the keto diet lead me to a general food change. I don't understand why you refuse to acknowledge this.
Because you assume everyone on the fad diet is doing it long term. There's a reason why it's always called a diet because it lures in people who want to lose pounds fast, not change their eating habits long term. You are not the average dieter.
 

8byte

Banned
Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,581
Kansas
It helps with all of those tho:

You don’t over eat because you get full quicker and stay full for longer

The whole point of it it’s managing carbs?

You’re much more aware of the different macros in your meals and how to balance them
And if you leave the keto diet, and you don't have your crutch of those specific foods making you feel full...what do you think those people will do? Also, you're not "much more aware of macros in your meals" for the right reasons. You're aware because you're tailoring it to lose weight as a number on a scale, not as a healthy improvement to your life. Again, Keto has a place, I'm glad people have lost weight with it, but I have very little confidence that they've learned anything that can help them in the long term (because keto is not good for you to practice your entire life).

Intermittent fasting is the best imo and most sustainable while being versatile and catering to your needs.
This, plus exercise and a balanced diet (tailored to your health goals) is absolutely the best path. It will take you longer, and you'll have to work harder, but if you want to live a healthier lifestyle...this is the way to go. If you need to lose 15lbs in the next month for your wedding photos, by all means, take on Keto, but as a life long commitment? Not a good idea.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,528
Try harder at....what exactly?

You understand that ketosis is an actual metabolic state that exists right? Like it's not magic.
I'm aware that ketosis is a bodily function. My point is people making wild claims of the benefits of attempting forcibly inducing said bodily state through diet are akin to religious nutballs. People clinging to fad diets with varying degrees of research, mixed research of positives and benefits, and subsequently evangelizing said diet to others is simply unhealthy behavior. Particularly in the case of something like keto dieting that was originally intended to treat epilepsy. Anything involving cutting entire food groups should rightfully looked at with skepticism as a long term healthy solution.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,792
Because you assume everyone on the fad diet is doing it long term. There's a reason why it's always called a diet because it lures in people who want to lose pounds fast, not change their eating habits long term. You are not the average dieter.
Which diet is successful at making the average schlub "change their diet long term?" Almost everyone who goes on a diet in a "crash" style burns out and goes back to eating McDonald's. When discussing these things, those people are useless. I'm interested in the effects on people who stick with it.

This is like saying that you shouldn't lift weights, they don't work, because most people stop going to the gym after two weeks.
 
Nov 13, 2017
1,280
Londinium
People on Keto in this thread: it works, I feel healthier, my kidneys haven’t imploded, been doing it for many years

People who have never done Keto or really looked into it apart from a few hastily googled articles for this thread: you’re a FOOL and a LIAR and you’re going to DIE

People who did Keto but it didn’t work or it made them feel ill: (absent)
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,348
I did it for 2 years and lost over 100 lbs and it changed my life. That was many years ago when barely anyone knew what it was and everyone told me I was going to die....my cholesterol dropped from 220 to 113...
 
OP
OP
Joe2187
Oct 25, 2017
1,201
People on Keto in this thread: it works, I feel healthier, my kidneys haven’t imploded, been doing it for many years

People who have never done Keto or really looked into it apart from a few hastily googled articles for this thread: you’re a FOOL and a LIAR and you’re going to DIE

People who did Keto but it didn’t work or it made them feel ill: (absent)
One day in like 60 years the diet will catch up to me and I will die....count your words it's gonna happen....soon...
 
Oct 27, 2017
694
Earth
Keto lost me 35lbs in a year. I wasn't just eating bacon and butter, I ate about 500 salads and stir fried my ass off and it worked like a hot damn. I would say the popularized fiction of just replacing your carb intake with meat is the absolute wrong way to go about things. Instead you should be removing wasted carbs like rice, potatoes, sugar, bread, pasta, and replacing those things with kale, chard, spinach, mushrooms.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,687
I'm aware that ketosis is a bodily function. My point is people making wild claims of the benefits of attempting forcibly inducing said bodily state through diet are akin to religious nutballs.
Yeah it's not "wild" to claim something that is easily observed with medical equipment that people use everyday. If you start reducing your carbs below a limit, you'll be in ketosis as defined by the presence of ketones in your blood and urine. Again, it's not a "claim" inasmuch as established science.

Particularly in the case of something like keto dieting that was originally intended to treat epilepsy.
The "keto" diet that's followed today is not the same as the keto diet for epilepsy. It shares principles but they are very different in terms of their execution.

Anything involving cutting entire food groups should rightfully looked at with skepticism as a long term healthy solution.
Based on...what evidence?
 
Oct 29, 2017
831
I thought the studies showed that high protein/low carb or high fat/low carb diets were unhealthy when tested with mice. There haven't really been any long term studies with it on humans, so it makes sense to be cautious.

Also, avoiding carbs is just plain silly. The populations that live the longest eat plenty of carbs. Exercise and eat your veggies.
Yep
 
Nov 13, 2017
1,280
Londinium
And if you leave the keto diet, and you don't have your crutch of those specific foods making you feel full...what do you think those people will do? Also, you're not "much more aware of macros in your meals" for the right reasons. You're aware because you're tailoring it to lose weight as a number on a scale, not as a healthy improvement to your life. Again, Keto has a place, I'm glad people have lost weight with it, but I have very little confidence that they've learned anything that can help them in the long term (because keto is not good for you to practice your entire life
Sorry but this sounds incredibly patronising. You understand macros, but not for the right reasons? What reasons are those?

You’re saying Keto is bad because if people stop they will invariably go back to stuffing their face with ice cream? Isn’t that true of any diet?

Sounds like you’re saying ‘people need to just eat perfectly and then they wouldn’t need ‘fad’ diets’ which is pretty obtuse and unhelpful advice

And why can’t you practice Keto forever if it helps you stay healthy?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,289
That's surprising to hear, can you go into some more detail? I'm genuinely interested. How long were you in keto, and what kinds of food were you overindulging?
This is just me and who I am but I eat a lot lol. So I've done keto for about 3-4 months but I would eat a ton of various proteins, greens, fats, etc. I get full but then I slowly start to get hungry again and just eat way too much.

It definitely works for people who have a control of their appetite.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,792
This is just me and who I am but I eat a lot lol. So I've done keto for about 3-4 months but I would eat a ton of various proteins, greens, fats, etc. I get full but then I slowly start to get hungry again and just eat way too much.

It definitely works for people who have a control of their appetite.
That's interesting, as the classic hunger sensation basically left me after a couple of weeks, and I wasn't actively limiting my intake at all. It went from the whole grumbling, pangs, "I'm gonna go crazy if I don't eat a bag of chips" sensation to just kind of a calm signal telling me that it was time to have a meal.

Did you at least lose weight during this time?

McDonald's is perfectly fine on keto. Just take off the bun and enjoy.
I tried this and quickly realized how much of the taste in a McDonald's burger comes from that bun, haha. Carl's Jr and Burger King were still just as delicious, though, so I would still grab lettuce wraps from there as a treat every now and then.
 
Nov 18, 2018
254
People on Keto in this thread: it works, I feel healthier, my kidneys haven’t imploded, been doing it for many years

People who have never done Keto or really looked into it apart from a few hastily googled articles for this thread: you’re a FOOL and a LIAR and you’re going to DIE
...Most of the people who are arguing against the Keto diet in this thread outright admit it can be used to lose weight and live a healthier lifestyle. The argument is that the Keto isn't better than any other diet that lowers your calorie or sugar intake. That, and the longterm effects for using it as a general diet outside of specific cases or purposes (for example, just to lose weight) haven't been studied, and there is actual evidence that drastically cutting down your carb intake combined with high fat consumption isn't optimal.

I mean, if we're using personal experience, I eat an apple pretty regularly and have pasta once a week, but I'm pretty sure I'm not drastically less healthy than anyone on the Keto diet.
 
Apr 19, 2018
373
I remember going over the keto diet in class. It’s great for short term weight management but long term it can put you at risk for heart problems, diabetes and coronary artery disease
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,289
That's interesting, as the classic hunger sensation basically left me after a couple of weeks, and I wasn't actively limiting my intake at all. It went from the whole grumbling, pangs, "I'm gonna go crazy if I don't eat a bag of chips" sensation to just kind of a calm signal telling me that it was time to have a meal.

Did you at least lose weight during this time?
Definitely! Bit of a body comp as well.

For me, keto is fine but it doesn't fit my lifestyle. Give me your classic 40/40/20 macro split with a caloric limit. Give me my carbs.
 
Oct 26, 2017
10,838
Guys, can I just eat goji berries and lose weight?
I think this is unfair critique. If you love meat, Keto is delicious. Bacon and eggs, Cobb Salads, Carnitas and guac burrito bowls, Caesar salad sans croutons, filet mignon, sashimi, delicious soups, full fat greek yogurt with berries, chicken with the skin, stir fries, etc. All while losing weight and not feeling hungry.
 
Oct 27, 2017
891
Because Keto isn't going to stop habits like:

Over Eating
Managing intake of macros (i.e. not eating shit tons of carbs)
Creating a balanced diet
Cooking a balanced diet
How macros impact or compliment a workout plan

Again, it's not bad that you lost weight, but you shouldn't convince yourself that you've gained all the tools necessary to at any point abandon the diet and maintain your current weight. Furthermore, what I am a proponent for isn't a diet. It is simply understanding the food that you are consuming and how it impacts your body. Keto teaches you what NOT to eat, but it doesn't teach you how you can balance those things to achieve results or lead a healthy lifestyle. I'm not suggesting that Keto is unhealthy, but I am suggesting that most people on keto have almost no idea what it would mean to leave keto and balance their diet accordingly.

Again: Keto is good for very specific uses and scenarios, but it should not be a lifestyle for anyone. Another problem being people don't like to be told they've maybe made a mistake or could potentially be "wrong" about something. No one who has seen great results on Keto is going to accept that there is still a lot of ground that they never covered on their path to weight loss, and that their results could have been achieved in a more sustainable manner, albeit requiring a bit more work. So I completely understand why the idea that keto is bad as a long term lifestyle really pisses a lot of people off, because in the short term it gave them something they didn't think they could have.

If all you've sacrificed to lose weight is your bread and pasta, then what have you taught yourself? What understanding do you have of your body? Nutrition starts with education and work, not by asking for a buger with no bun.
Well there's another broad generalization.
I'm not sure why being on Keto means you're completely ignorant to all of the things you listed off.
You are supposed to calculate your macros and eat within a specific caloric range even on Keto.

The bottom line, is that the hardest part about eating healthy/losing weight/dieting is actually doing it. If you're 500 lbs the most important thing is that you stop being 500lbs. If Keto or any other "fad" diet works for you, that's the one you should do.

no one who has seen great results on Keto is going to accept that there is still a lot of ground that they never covered on their path to weight loss
Also, losing a bunch of weight and feeling good about yourself is a huge motivator for learning more about nutrition, exercise, and how your body works but okaaaay.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
1,913
I tried this and quickly realized how much of the taste in a McDonald's burger comes from that bun, haha. Carl's Jr and Burger King were still just as delicious, though, so I would still grab lettuce wraps from there as a treat every now and then.
I would be lying if I said I haven't been caught licking the buns once in a while...
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,792
Definitely! Bit of a body comp as well.

For me, keto is fine but it doesn't fit my lifestyle. Give me your classic 40/40/20 macro split with a caloric limit. Give me my carbs.


More power to you, if that's what works for you. It's all about experimenting and finding what makes you successful.
 
Nov 1, 2017
2,030
I think this is unfair critique. If you love meat, Keto is delicious. Bacon and eggs, Cobb Salads, Carnitas and guac burrito bowls, Caesar salad sans croutons, filet mignon, sashimi, delicious soups, full fat greek yogurt with berries, chicken with the skin, stir fries, etc. All while losing weight and not feeling hungry.
It wasn't meant to be a criticism of keto. LOL. I was just commenting on the diet and super food industry in general. There's always a new one just around the corner that is apparently miraculous.

It's cool that keto's helping people to get results they want when it comes to their bodies. I'm just waiting for the other side of it when people move on to something else. I'm banking on veggies and fruit.
 
Oct 27, 2017
891
Appetite control through eating fatty filling foods and fiber. If that diet changes, there are no habits built or knowledge that can reinforce that appetite control, and overeating returns. Just because your diet makes you feel full at a certain point doesn't mean that you've learned to change your eating habits, it just means you feel fuller faster.
Also make sure you don't exercise too much.
If you ever stop exercising cold turkey, you might get fat again.

This is such a dumb point to make. Do what works for you.
 
Nov 2, 2017
542
I did Keto for 6 months, Lost 40 pounds.
It definitely works. It's really Calorie in vs Calorie out though.
It's just much easier to keep calories low when cutting carbs out completely.

I did gain back like 20 pounds over a year period, but that's just having no self control around food.
I'm dieting regularly now, and I'm already down like 10 pounds for the year. Less calories in than calorie out. That's literally it.
 
Nov 13, 2017
1,280
Londinium
...Most of the people who are arguing against the Keto diet in this thread outright admit it can be used to lose weight and live a healthier lifestyle. The argument is that the Keto isn't better than any other diet that lowers your calorie or sugar intake. That, and the longterm effects for using it as a general diet outside of specific cases or purposes (for example, just to lose weight) haven't been studied, and there is actual evidence that drastically cutting down your carb intake combined with high fat consumption isn't optimal.

I mean, if we're using personal experience, I eat an apple pretty regularly and have pasta once a week, but I'm pretty sure I'm not drastically less healthy than anyone on the Keto diet.
It depends what your metric of better is. If you can live sustainably on a calorie restricted diet, or a Mediterranean diet, then that’s great and I wouldn’t suggest switching to Keto.

But (and this is a combination of anecdotal and personal evidence) other restrictive diets make people miserable and don’t yield results like Keto does.

Also, people concede it helps to lose weight but in a kind of ‘just use it sparingly because you know it’s damaging to your system’ way, which I think is not true and have seen no compelling evidence for

For me the ONLY negative of Keto is it can be antisocial as you are eating different things to other people which can be difficult in some situations. But from a health point of view I’ve had personally great results (it just weight but blood pressure and fitness, as well as generally feeling better) so I do think it’s an objectively great lifestyle. But so is med diet or vegetarianism. But no one seems to go out of their way to shit on those for no reason other than their personal biases
 
Dec 27, 2018
104
1) Humans have been on this planet roughly only 300,000 years or less
Agreed, before half million ago they were different species but the diet were similar

2) ancient humans never ate candies, processed foods, sodas or fast food
Well I didn't advocate processed sugar. You can eat plenty of carb and fiber without touching processed sugar. That shit is bad.

3) they had to hunt and survive daily for what they ate
4) This isnt meant for people with normal metabolisms
Hunter gatherer diet is much closer to a balanced diet. What do you think they "gathered", nutritious plants.

5) The side effects are well more documented than any other diet around.
[/quote]
On a 80% fat Keto diet? No.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,792
Honestly I'd say the thing that's most difficult about sticking with keto isn't that you get this desire to down a bucket of fries or a large pizza, but rather that almost every convenient food option in our society is carb-focused. You have to work hard to keep your kitchen stocked with snacks that fit the bill, and understand that you are going to be a lot more limited in how much of the menu you can choose from at most restaurants. Then there's situations where you're having dinner at a friend or family member's house and it's not like you're going to give them a list of what it is acceptable for them to serve you beforehand. If they make lasagna, it's easier to just eat it and say thank you.