Shouldn't have taken till April 18 2019 to conclude that, in fairness
Justice Department releases redacted Mueller report (See Threadmarks for Summaries)
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Shouldn't have taken till April 18 2019 to conclude that, in fairness
It got them the ability to drag Clinton through the mud in front of the entire world, and adding a lasting blemish on his presidency.
Trump absolutely deserves to at the very least have that done to him. Fuck that god damn criminal.
It's a very tough call.
Impeachment will lead to more information coming out and Trump possibly having to testify under oath; though he'll fight it all the way and probably not have to.
Because of Republicans, it WON'T lead to him being removed from office. Going through with impeachment knowing you'll 'lose' runs the risk of making Trump stronger in the election.
I mean, that's why they have to impeach. He's now publicly flaunting the rules and taunting everyone while doing it. That's why there are investigations and consequences to these things, and backing down because you're afraid it might cost you your cushy appointment next election isn't an excuse to abdicate your responsibility. I'm honestly disgusted to my very core. There aren't even any shades of grey here. It's black and white.
If the House impeaches him, and the Senate refuses to remove him from office, the impeachment still stands. It tarnishes his name in the history books.
You know, posts like this are interesting to me. Because speaking of 2016, it's true that Hillary Clinton lost.
What were the reasons Clinton lost though? Well obviously they were numerous and not down to one thing in particular, but among them was Trump continuing what Republicans were already doing for years upon years with Clinton, and relitigating whatever they could to make her seem as untrustworthy as possible, from Benghazi to the Clinton Foundation and of course e-mails.
And we'll, again that obviously wasn't the only reason, but nonetheless it was certainly a large factor with so many people refusing to vote for Clinton due to her being untrustworthy and shifty and all that and we'll, she did lose.
And the ultimate point being, that was all with made up nonsense. To the best that we can tell, there's nothin' in her emails, nothin' in Benghazi, nothin' in any of it.
But yet, that didn't stop Republicans. They just kept hammering away, night and day, regardless of how little there really was to any of that, and that, despite if anything proving how clean Clinton was, was nonetheless certainly a large factor (though again obviously not the sole reason) behind Clinton's loss.
And that's with largely made-up garbage.
So if that's the result of Republicans' smear efforts towards Clinton, what, then, of Trump, where there actually does seem to be not just a large amount of smoke but some very real fire as well?
What I'm getting at here is, based on how successful Republicans were with smearing figures like Clinton based on nothing, when there clearly is something here (though perhaps not write as much as some may have hoped, there's still clearly a lot here), given those results that Republicans had, that relitigating the report as much as possible and being as cutthroat as possible about it should obviously be part of the political calculus and Democrats not being willing to get as down and dirty as Republicans would be a mistake.
Now, of course to be perfectly clear, of course it shouldn't be the sole thing they focus on, and of course it won't be. Of course they should also continue to focus on stuff like healthcare, as they almost certainly will do, because that's both the right thing to do and a winning issue.
But at the same time, saying Democrats should just give up on this is something I can't get behind either. Because look at how much Republicans were able to damage the public perception of Clinton when they really has nothing by simply tirelessly hammering home lies day and night, day and night until people believed it anyway regardless of how garbage it all was.
So when that's how much success Republicans had with smearing individuals like Clinton when there was little to nothing actually in any of that, and they got as far as they did by hammering home lies, you're telling me with how much there nonetheless is in a report like this, when there actually is both smoke and fire alike, that hammering it home wouldn't be a winning stategy? Because that's going to make me raise an eyebrow.
Now of course one more time it should not be the only thing Democrats focus on, and they should focus in stuff like healthcare as well, as they no don't will. But with how successful Republicans were with flat-out lies with Clinton by simply endlessly repeating them, the idea that Democrats shouldn't do the same thing with Trump with actual facts, and that wouldn't work at all if they did try, when indeed we saw how well those tactics worked against Clinton with pure lies well that idea just makes me raise more than an eyebrow and if anything would indicate Democrats aren't being cutthroat enough.
And to be perfectly clear, I'm not sure if impeachment specifically would be a winner. But simply talking about how bad Clinton looked clearly did a large amount if sanage to get and was definitely a part of the reason she lost for sure. So the idea that Democrats shouldn't fight fire with fire, with actual facts this time, and it wouldn't work if they tried (and adding Trump's approval ratings and lack of bring trusted by the public on top of this as it is), when just shouting lies about Clinton for years worked, yeah, that doesn't really make much sense to me at all, and so I would hope Democrats don't let up in Trump at all given that, whether they ever actually go for impeachment or not.
It won't. More information will come out that the public NEEDS to hear. If he doesn't get impeached when all the information is out there for the public to see then the blame will solely land on the republicans.
Impeachment is an "Invade Iraq"-tier dumb idea at this point. There are 14 ongoing investigations that have sprung out of this, at least wait for one to draw a criminal conclusion that doesn't rely on the whims of Republican Senators who have spent the last two years discovering new moral depths.
People are just projecting their fears at this point.
It's time Democrats put their foot down
I asked the same question earlier. Still not sure. It could be one of the areas blacked out.
We need to go for impeachment
This + his financial crimes, get it out there all on record. Keep investigating.
Get the news finding the Old GOP guys to comment how would this all and calling the new GOP spineless.
It'll exhaust and demotivate Trump and co., give us names who to donate against in future elections in battlegrounds.
We need to stick it to them and run the narrative like they want to and been doing for the last 10-11 years.
We need to step on this modern GOP's throat asap.
This + his financial crimes, get it out there all on record. Keep investigating.
Get the news finding the Old GOP guys to comment how would this all and calling the new GOP spineless.
It'll exhaust and demotivate Trump and co., give us names who to donate against in future elections in battlegrounds.
We need to stick it to them and run the narrative like they want to and been doing for the last 10-11 years.
We need to step on this modern GOP's throat asap.
Yes buzzfeed's story was mostly true. They said Trump ordered Cohen to lie. The mischaracterization was that in reality there was an intermediary telling Cohen to lie.
I think any impeachment talk has to come after Mueller testifies before Congress. I mean, theoretically, couldn't someone just ask him "Was your intention for Congress to deliberate on the obstruction charges, or was this a decision you wanted the AG to make?" I think his answers will help clarify things. At least, I hope.
After digesting this stuff the thing that bothers me the most is that there wasn't a stronger way for Mueller to compel Trump to answer questions in person or testify before a grand jury. This guy is the primary subject of the whole investigation and you can't sit down with him face-to-face?
Here is why this President needs to be impeached. This report was nothing but Trump's saving grace because of checks and balances. He repeatedly tried to manipulate everything and everyone, he just got incredibly lucky that his morally bankrupt cronies had the wherewithal to understand that Trump's demands likely led them to future jail time, and Trump's removal from office. It's not that Trump was smart enough to get away with it, he's dumb enough that those under him saved his ass by not doing his bidding. And the important thing here, is most, if not all of those people who kept him in check, are gone.
100%. That's been my fear all along. Any weakness will be thrown back in their faces for sure. Look at how long the GOP spun out Benghazi and emails, which surely created just enough doubt to help them win the election. If these roles were reversed, they'd be running multiple investigations already into obstruction, finance violations, campaign violations, emoluments, etc.
Not blacked out. Cohen says that WH council instructed him to lie, multiple times when constructing his statement to Congress and when he formally testified. They made it clear that they had "recently" spoken to the president on several of these occasions, and told Cohen they would take care of him as long as he didn't break ranks. WH counsel then ducked an interview with Mueller after Cohen's indictment, citing executive privilege.
So Buzzfeed was technically wrong, but basically right. Trump instructed Cohen to lie, but used an intermediary to give himself plausible deniability.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, I thought Mueller asked and Trump declined, then it would have taken too long to go through a legal summons, and run the risk of being shut down completely while waiting.
Fuck criminality being the end all of everything. The Mueller report clearly paints a picture of flat out unpatriotic, arguably traitorous conduct in regards to collusion, as well as all but saying that there was obstruction.
The idea that putting those facts out consistently, loudly, and with as deep a public lens as possible could be seen as helpful to Trump is crazy. If he wins in spite of that in 2020--nothing else you could have done would have changed the outcome.
Seriously, the idea that the independent voter that sees these receipts and goes "nah, I'm voting for trump again and or anyway", would have legitimately considered voting for Bernie, Pete, Joe, whoeverdafuk if only they'd focused on the issues is such a crock of shit.
It's a certainty if Democrats don't do it.
Why do you think they are trying to stow in the narrative that only Collusion can be considered a "real" crime?
This. Voters don't suddenly forget the issues if Democrats decide to start the impeachment process
Trump threatened to shut down the investigation on at least two occasions if I'm not mistaken. The thrust of his reasoning seems to be that it would have delayed the investigation.. but I mean.. the thing took what two years? I don't see that as a sufficient explanation. CNN is saying Mueller was unsatisfied by his written answers too.
If Trump wins in 2020, then the information contained in the Mueller report will have been vetted by the electorate and viewed (wrongly IMO) as no big deal. There is no realistic chance that Trump is removed from office due to these charges if he's reelected.
Yeah it's so fucked up that he never had to sit for an interview. It seems one of Trump's best skills is getting people to take the fall or cover for him. How I don't know. But if he could have just been forced to sit for an interview he'd have no protection.
I would definitely see Trump (via his cronies who would take the fall for it, as is typical with how he operates) shutting the whole thing down before doing an in-person interview, and GOP screaming during a longer investigation that's it's "political" heading into election times.
B-b-but 2020...
AOC is amazing, goddamn I wish there were more folks like her
Impeach the fucker and let the republicans have to defend his actions. They will look bad defending him.
TIL Clinton should have just told investigators to go fuck themselves and he would have never been impeached.
Took a true con man and career criminal like Trump to reveal how flaccid our "checks and balances" are.
Took a true con man and career criminal like Trump to reveal how flaccid our "checks and balances" are.
Trump should be impeached, because it the duty of the house to do so in light of an impartial (republican appointed) special counsel basically said it was up to them to convict and even said there was enough to convict in any other climate of criminal activity. I get they need to get messaging together, and as such the leaders of the dem majority need to shut up till they know as a caucus what they need to do going forward. Something like this must be handled clearly. With that in mind FUUUUUUCKK Hoyer. The dems in the house needs to get together and kick him out of the #2 spot permanently, this isn't the first time he has pulled a stunt like this and won't be the last.
I think if anyone were going to fire Mueller, it would have been done many times over by now. I don't think an interview would have changed that.
The Report specifically outlines that Mueller was frustrated with the written answers to the questions listed and would have pursued if not for the issue of time.
And while yes that seems like a shitty thing to rely on, it's likely hiding the true issue that there was likely an artificial deadline thrown onto Mueller once Barr took over. There's not a doubt in my mind that the White House directed Barr to hurry the investigation along and Mueller held out for as long as he could before filing the report.
Yea
Home of the Brave my ass. We are an embarassment if Trump continues to spit on this country
It is insane, but unfortunately, it's not entirely untrue. GOP voters are indeed loyal and reliable, which is sad for many reasons. Democrat voters are not bought into the "team sport" mentality nearly so much, and they can indeed be fickle and petty.
But what is worse, is that Democrats are in a constant state of panic that their actions might "energize the Republican base". This is the dumbest argument of all time. They are already energized. They're constantly furious and panicked with fear from the shit they hear on Fox News, and now from Trump. Forget about the GOP voters, they're going to vote GOP and no action, and especially no inaction, is going to change that. Energize your own base, and we will outnumber them.
The GOP never worries about "energizing the Democrats". At worst, they worry about wishy-washy independents, but usually they give no fucks about anyone's opinions but their donors.
The only one that explicitly stated that is Hoyer, and despite being the 'majority leader' his opinion shouldn't account for anything. He doesn't give a damn what any in caucus believes, and he is only #2 because Nancy Pelosi is so much more popular that he gets the dregs left over from the remaining blue dogs. We do need to hold the dems to the fire though, make them feel like there is no other political option, you either stand for what is right or you stand leader of cowards.
Then never expect your constituents to vote unless you can first guarantee a win. Fuck him.
I won't go for impeachment now. I would let him stew more. Keep the heat on. There are 14 more investigations.
He clearly had a bad report here. But it will be piled on. First see what Mueller says. For now go on and attack Barr because he is way to partisan as can be seen.
Don't give Trump and the Republicans many angles about Radical Democrats who would only like to impeach him, keep the pressure on Trump and don't let them change the narrative.
No keep those words in the background. Say that this is very serious matter and that there is more out there.
Also start the narrative about the deletions of communications and encryption (works great because it helped him greatly in the election about the deletion of emails from Hillary) and also about not being forthright and also about Republicans helping him cover things up and giving him a heads up. This will make Republicans nervous also.
Let's keep the heat up but stay away of the impeachment talk. He will break at some point.
It is clear that he also has a health issue, it will all be piling up. Don't give him or the Republicans an inch. And play this out smart and He or the Republicans will break like Jack Nicholson.
Also start the narrative that you will start to consult with your Republicans colleagues about this very serious matter, that way you will bind them. And let the public know how those discussions go because it is clear that there was much misconduct.
If the Democrats play it smart then Trump doesn't stand a chance in 2020, but Democrats are not very smart either so they would probably blow it anyway.
He clearly had a bad report here. But it will be piled on. First see what Mueller says. For now go on and attack Barr because he is way to partisan as can be seen.
Don't give Trump and the Republicans many angles about Radical Democrats who would only like to impeach him, keep the pressure on Trump and don't let them change the narrative.
No keep those words in the background. Say that this is very serious matter and that there is more out there.
Also start the narrative about the deletions of communications and encryption (works great because it helped him greatly in the election about the deletion of emails from Hillary) and also about not being forthright and also about Republicans helping him cover things up and giving him a heads up. This will make Republicans nervous also.
Let's keep the heat up but stay away of the impeachment talk. He will break at some point.
It is clear that he also has a health issue, it will all be piling up. Don't give him or the Republicans an inch. And play this out smart and He or the Republicans will break like Jack Nicholson.
Also start the narrative that you will start to consult with your Republicans colleagues about this very serious matter, that way you will bind them. And let the public know how those discussions go because it is clear that there was much misconduct.
If the Democrats play it smart then Trump doesn't stand a chance in 2020, but Democrats are not very smart either so they would probably blow it anyway.
Oh look, AOC being one of the few Democrats to actually have a fucking spine. Who could have guess.
I wonder if the glass of water would do something like this.
After listening to a few random videos from CNN, MSNBC, The Young Turks and interviews with various politicians regarding the summary, there are two things that are utter BULLSHIT!
1. Barr says Trump has obstructed the investigation by using others as messengers, but they decided to not go ahead to do what Trump wanted. So, uh, "Trump is innocent because, uh, even though he wanted to obstruct, his followers just refused to go ahead and obstruct, so... that's why Trump is innocent!!!"
2. Barr says Trump's peeps have been in touch the Russian interference, but unaware it was illegal. "So, if Trump's people just didn't know they were doing illegal shit, that means they are innocent!"
How is that legal bullshit? Say you aren't aware something is illegal. Say you are a kid that steals something and doesn't know what stealing is? Does that mean "Oh, my bad. I didn't know you had to pay for things before taking them? I'm sorry. I'm innocent, right?" No, your poor, clueless ass gets toss in juvie.
What about those times when a wife hires a hitman who is really a undercover officer? Oops, youre going to jail... "But, I just wanted you to kill my husband, but at the end of the day the hit never happeed. You were a cop, so my husband's not dead and my wish didn't go through! So I'm innocent, right?!" Nah, your ass gets locked up.
How many people in the wrong place, wrong time, friends of criminals committing crimes that are arrested because while they weren't aware, they were aiding a getaway or just happened to receive or buy a stolen tv from a friend (unaware the item was hot) and get picked up for that. YET, Trump and his little pieces of shit goons are all, "Uh, I know NOTHING.... NOTHING! Oh, and Trump ordered to obstruct justice, but we just pretended to follow orders and keep quiet, hehehe!"
1. Barr says Trump has obstructed the investigation by using others as messengers, but they decided to not go ahead to do what Trump wanted. So, uh, "Trump is innocent because, uh, even though he wanted to obstruct, his followers just refused to go ahead and obstruct, so... that's why Trump is innocent!!!"
2. Barr says Trump's peeps have been in touch the Russian interference, but unaware it was illegal. "So, if Trump's people just didn't know they were doing illegal shit, that means they are innocent!"
How is that legal bullshit? Say you aren't aware something is illegal. Say you are a kid that steals something and doesn't know what stealing is? Does that mean "Oh, my bad. I didn't know you had to pay for things before taking them? I'm sorry. I'm innocent, right?" No, your poor, clueless ass gets toss in juvie.
What about those times when a wife hires a hitman who is really a undercover officer? Oops, youre going to jail... "But, I just wanted you to kill my husband, but at the end of the day the hit never happeed. You were a cop, so my husband's not dead and my wish didn't go through! So I'm innocent, right?!" Nah, your ass gets locked up.
How many people in the wrong place, wrong time, friends of criminals committing crimes that are arrested because while they weren't aware, they were aiding a getaway or just happened to receive or buy a stolen tv from a friend (unaware the item was hot) and get picked up for that. YET, Trump and his little pieces of shit goons are all, "Uh, I know NOTHING.... NOTHING! Oh, and Trump ordered to obstruct justice, but we just pretended to follow orders and keep quiet, hehehe!"
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Or those people who try to solicit a prostitute and it turns out to be a cop. No sex was paid for, and the guy can just say he didn't know it was illegal, so he's free and clear!