The Japanese VA of Cold Steel are a bit of an all-star cast. Don't want to speak badly of our friendly neighborhood English VA but I don't think they command the same prices.
Despite this, Tom from XSEED has commented in the past that English dubbing is one of the most expensive parts of the game localization process.
Is Japanese voice acting so expensive that Falcom cannot afford it, but a still small company like XSEED affords it (apparently) quite easily? I mean, no one forced XSEED to do more and they even wanted to do more for the PS3 versions, but couldn't for technical reasons.
Is Japanese voice acting so expensive that Falcom cannot afford it, but a still small company like XSEED affords it (apparently) quite easily? I mean, no one forced XSEED to do more and they even wanted to do more for the PS3 versions, but couldn't for technical reasons.
This is going to be a weird complaint, but was anyone else a little disappointed by the relative lack of single target crafts in the first two Cold Steel games? I think the only Class VII members to have any are Alisa, Jusis, Machias (whose Break Shot gets upgraded to a line attack in CS II), and Laura. Similarly, I disliked that there were no single target arts of the Space and Mirage elements. It just feels... wrong to use an AoE attack against a single enemy, even a boss. It's so inelegant and inefficient, like carpet bombing a cockroach.
Does CS III have more single target options? Any single target S-Crafts? Being focused on a single enemy made the animation of Estelle's Barrage, Schera's Sadist Whip, and Agate's Beat Down feel so impactful.
This is going to be a weird complaint, but was anyone else a little disappointed by the relative lack of single target crafts in the first two Cold Steel games? I think the only Class VII members to have any are Alisa, Jusis, Machias (whose Break Shot gets upgraded to a line attack in CS II), and Laura. Similarly, I disliked that there were no single target arts of the Space and Mirage elements. It just feels... wrong to use an AoE attack against a single enemy, even a boss. It's so inelegant and inefficient, like carpet bombing a cockroach.
Does CS III have more single target options? Any single target S-Crafts? Being focused on a single enemy made the animation of Estelle's Barrage, Schera's Sadist Whip, and Agate's Beat Down feel so impactful.
If anything it annoyed me that the characters you listed didn't have competent AoE attacks. You can count the occasions where you fight just 1 enemy on two hands.
I wonder why this even happened in the first place. Someone just decided "we don't have enough money to voice everything, so we only voice the sentences here, here and here" and nobody stopped him?
Considering the follow up games usually reuse most of the former games' assets, it's not really surprising or worrying they are able to have a quick turn around either.
Hmm... would NISA even have to license XSEED's translation? I was under the impression the rights to localized versions usually revert back to the original rights holder (so Falcom in this case).
Yep and the story is already planned anyway, probably even written for most part. It's mostly a matter of creating the new enemy models where necessary and a few other zones i'd say.
I honestly have no clue as i was joking around but i always assumed that XSEED holds the license to the translation. I think it also was stated that DotEmu's Ys Origin port for PS4 was with them licensing the XSEED translation?
This is going to be a weird complaint, but was anyone else a little disappointed by the relative lack of single target crafts in the first two Cold Steel games? I think the only Class VII members to have any are Alisa, Jusis, Machias (whose Break Shot gets upgraded to a line attack in CS II), and Laura. Similarly, I disliked that there were no single target arts of the Space and Mirage elements. It just feels... wrong to use an AoE attack against a single enemy, even a boss. It's so inelegant and inefficient, like carpet bombing a cockroach.
Does CS III have more single target options? Any single target S-Crafts? Being focused on a single enemy made the animation of Estelle's Barrage, Schera's Sadist Whip, and Agate's Beat Down feel so impactful.
This isn't a Cold Steel thing. Single target crafts were rare in the Sky trilogy too, because most of your enemy encounters (and bosses) had multiple enemies present on screen. Most crafts are animated in a way where it works if it is a single target/multi target, so this isn't too big of a deal for me.
And no, there isn't a single target S-craft in CSIII. Single target S-crafts quickly became obsolete because they realized that characters with single target S-crafts were generally at a disadvantage compared to multi-target S-crafts.
This is going to be a weird complaint, but was anyone else a little disappointed by the relative lack of single target crafts in the first two Cold Steel games? I think the only Class VII members to have any are Alisa, Jusis, Machias (whose Break Shot gets upgraded to a line attack in CS II), and Laura. Similarly, I disliked that there were no single target arts of the Space and Mirage elements. It just feels... wrong to use an AoE attack against a single enemy, even a boss. It's so inelegant and inefficient, like carpet bombing a cockroach.
Does CS III have more single target options? Any single target S-Crafts? Being focused on a single enemy made the animation of Estelle's Barrage, Schera's Sadist Whip, and Agate's Beat Down feel so impactful.
I remember ye olden days of Sky FC where you had to balance between a single target S-Craft that did a ton of damage versus an AoE S-Craft that did good damage.... good times...
This isn't a Cold Steel thing. Single target crafts were rare in the Sky trilogy too, because most of your enemy encounters (and bosses) had multiple enemies present on screen.
If you take a quick look at the pages of playable characters from the Sky trilogy on the Kiseki Wiki, you'll notice that most of them have at least one single target craft. This applies even to characters who became playable in the later games of the trilogy, so it's not a relic of FC when Falcom were still figuring things out. Richard, for example, has two single target crafts (one that can inflict Faint and one that just deals damage) and one S-size AoE. Both of his S-crafts are single target as well. I don't think people were underwhelmed with his performance.
Most crafts are animated in a way where it works if it is a single target/multi target, so this isn't too big of a deal for me.
Single target crafts are tuned to hit harder than AoE crafts with the same cost, though. I just did a little experiment in CS II. I equipped Rean and Alisa so they would have the same STR (1506, to be precise). Flamberge 2 deals around 500 more points of damage (2898 without buffs, 5125 with STR +50%) than True Autumn Leaf Cutter (2333 without buffs, 4665 with STR +50%). Both characters attacked the same Roc.
Having thought about it some more, having different characters excel at fighting groups of different size is not a bad way to encourage the use of the tag mechanic, which I have completely ignored before. I guess I'll give it a try on my next playthrough. Swapping from Jusis to Rean when a boss summons backup and then back to Jusis when the backup is down could be fun. You can also strategically pick arts to plug the gaps in available AoE sizes left by the native craft sets (unless your name is Gaius, Fie, or Laura).
And no, there isn't a single target S-craft in CSIII. Single target S-crafts quickly became obsolete because they realized that characters with single target S-crafts were generally at a disadvantage compared to multi-target S-crafts.
Single target S-crafts don't have to be inherently disadvantageous. All they need to do is deal more damage and/or have a higher chance of inflicting ailments. The increase doesn't even have to be particularly high. A 10-25% advantage in damage compared to the same character's AoE S-craft (which is the advantage Flamberge 2 displayed over True Autumn Leaf Cutter in my experiment) would be sufficient to make the single target option clearly preferable in some circumstances.
I remember ye olden days of Sky FC where you had to balance between a single target S-Craft that did a ton of damage versus an AoE S-Craft that did good damage.... good times...
This is what I want. What's the point of having two S-crafts when one is strictly better than the other? I think Elliot is the only character in the first two Cold Steel games whose S-crafts do different things. Everybody else gets an AoE attack and a bigger, stronger AoE attack.
If you take a quick look at the pages of playable characters from the Sky trilogy on the Kiseki Wiki, you'll notice that most of them have at least one single target craft. This applies even to characters who became playable in the later games of the trilogy, so it's not a relic of FC when Falcom were still figuring things out. Richard, for example, has two single target crafts (one that can inflict Faint and one that just deals damage) and one S-size AoE. Both of his S-crafts are single target as well. I don't think people were underwhelmed with his performance.
Alright, let's run through the characters with single target skills:
Estelle: She gains Hard Break, a skill that causes Impede. It eventually becomes an AoE skill. More on Estelle later.
Joshua: He has Dual Strike, one of the most consistently powerful skills in the game (This is comparable to Laura's Armor Break).
Schera: Has Bind Whip, a skill that causes Impede.
Olivier: Has Sniper Shot, a skill that cause Impede.
Kloe: Sturm and Kampfer are single target. While the former causes Impede (again...) the latter is a status debuff.
Zin: Has Smite, a powerful single target attack that causes confusion. Hard outclassed by his other crafts.
So right off the bat, there are a few problems. Most of the single target skills are Impede related. There's rarely a good reason to use Impede skills in trash mob battles, since spamming AoE skills is more useful for clearing battles quickly. It's also not that great during boss battles, because a lot of them feature multiple opponents or in some cases, skills that can't be cancelled out with Impede. The non-impede ones mostly end up being outclassed by AoE skills. So in practice, a lot of the single target skills ended up being niche. Falcom resolved this nicely by combining Impede with AoE skills. It's a blatant case of streamlining done right imo, since you still have reasons to go back to these moves.
Single target crafts are tuned to hit harder than AoE crafts with the same cost, though. I just did a little experiment in CS II. I equipped Rean and Alisa so they would have the same STR (1506, to be precise). Flamberge 2 deals around 500 more points of damage (2898 without buffs, 5125 with STR +50%) than True Autumn Leaf Cutter (2333 without buffs, 4665 with STR +50%). Both characters attacked the same Roc.
The calculation just proves how bad most single target skills are in a game where trash mobs are common. Flamberge sucked outside of building BP, to the point where it was thankfully replaced with a skill that targets an enemy line in CSIII.
Single target S-crafts don't have to be inherently disadvantageous. All they need to do is deal more damage and/or have a higher chance of inflicting ailments. The increase doesn't even have to be particularly high. A 10-25% advantage in damage compared to the same character's AoE S-craft (which is the advantage Flamberge 2 displayed over True Autumn Leaf Cutter in my experiment) would be sufficient to make the single target option clearly preferable in some circumstances.
Estelle and Richard are pretty much the only ones that get away with this, and they barely do it. Since most major enemy encounters involve multiple enemies, AoE s-crafts are generally far more valuable. Think about every Abysmal Worm style encounter you fought, every monster chest, etc. These games priorities hitting multiple enemies over hitting one enemy super hard. Estelle makes up for this for her very high base damage on her S-craft. It's really useful for punching through tanky bosses like Lorence in FC, and i'll grant you that I wouldn't mind seeing a return of these. Though with how the games are designed, having a single target, high powered S-craft seems... abusable.
Upping ailments wouldn't make a difference since ailments on S-crafts are generally useless.
Finished CS1 tonight. Woof, that final boss fight was terrible and ended the game on such a low note. I feel like I need a break from this game but I do want to know what happens in CS2.
FC is my only other reference point (since it's the only other game in the series I've had a chance to play), and it structured it ending
Finished CS1 tonight. Woof, that final boss fight was terrible and ended the game on such a low note. I feel like I need a break from this game but I do want to know what happens in CS2.
Alright, let's run through the characters with single target skills:
Estelle: She gains Hard Break, a skill that causes Impede. It eventually becomes an AoE skill. More on Estelle later.
Joshua: He has Dual Strike, one of the most consistently powerful skills in the game (This is comparable to Laura's Armor Break).
Schera: Has Bind Whip, a skill that causes Impede.
Olivier: Has Sniper Shot, a skill that cause Impede.
Kloe: Sturm and Kampfer are single target. While the former causes Impede (again...) the latter is a status debuff.
Zin: Has Smite, a powerful single target attack that causes confusion. Hard outclassed by his other crafts.
So right off the bat, there are a few problems. Most of the single target skills are Impede related. There's rarely a good reason to use Impede skills in trash mob battles, since spamming AoE skills is more useful for clearing battles quickly. It's also not that great during boss battles, because a lot of them feature multiple opponents or in some cases, skills that can't be cancelled out with Impede. The non-impede ones mostly end up being outclassed by AoE skills. So in practice, a lot of the single target skills ended up being niche. Falcom resolved this nicely by combining Impede with AoE skills. It's a blatant case of streamlining done right imo, since you still have reasons to go back to these moves.
You forgot Joshua's Cloak and Dagger (damage and KO) and Agate's Spiral Edge (damage + AT Delay to a single target), so FC alone has four exceptions to the proposed "single target equals Impede" pattern: Dual Strike, Cloak and Dagger, Spiral Edge, and Smite. Later games in the trilogy introduce even more: Anelace gets two single target crafts (Eight-Leaf Blitz deals damage, Fallen Leaves causes AT Delay on top of it), Kevin has Crossgear Rage (just damage at first; gets upgraded to cause AT Delay), Kurt has not Shadow Spear (damage and KO), and Mueller knows Ragna Bind (damage, vacuum, Faint) and Blade Dance (damage, Confuse) in addition to Mirage Edge (no damage at all, Impede, Mute). There's also Josette with Stampede (damage, DEF Down) and Anchor Flail (damage, Faint), but her low STR does mean that they might as well be straight debuffs. Finally, Schera gets Fox Tail in Sky the 3rd, which has Richard-tier low delay, while Tita learns Charge (high damage and Faint for paltry 10 CP) after you complete her Moon Door. Only Julia fully conforms to the "single target equals Impede" pattern with her sole single target option being Lanzenreiter (damage, Impede).
The calculation just proves how bad most single target skills are in a game where trash mobs are common. Flamberge sucked outside of building BP, to the point where it was thankfully replaced with a skill that targets an enemy line in CSIII.
Free 500 extra damage per hit can add up to a considerable amount fairly quickly once SPD Up enters the picture. As you allude to, Flamberge also possesses a higher unbalance rate, which translates into even more damage, as well as CP generation for the character Alisa is linked to. Flamberge may be bad in regular encounters, but has its niche when there's only one target to take care of, which is not an unheard of situation.
Estelle and Richard are pretty much the only ones that get away with this, and they barely do it. Since most major enemy encounters involve multiple enemies, AoE s-crafts are generally far more valuable. Think about every Abysmal Worm style encounter you fought, every monster chest, etc. These games priorities hitting multiple enemies over hitting one enemy super hard. Estelle makes up for this for her very high base damage on her S-craft. It's really useful for punching through tanky bosses like Lorence in FC, and i'll grant you that I wouldn't mind seeing a return of these. Though with how the games are designed, having a single target, high powered S-craft seems... abusable.
Upping ailments wouldn't make a difference since ailments on S-crafts are generally useless.
There are plenty of bosses in both arcs that come with backup at first, but are incapable of summoning reinforcements. Once the backup is dead (and it's usually considerably squishier than the primary opponent), it's best to switch to single target attacks if you wish to maximize CP efficiency. Bosses that fly solo for the entire duration of a fight also exist. Finally, AoE attacks are very resource-inefficient if a small number of enemies is spaced so that there are large gaps between them. You don't want to drop an XL-size or an all hitting AoE to hit only two opponents.
May I ask why you appear to be so opposed to the idea of single target options? I'm not asking for entire craft sets full of nothing but them, just for one move (out of 4-6) on most characters, particularly on those who have low ATS and can't expand their natural options via orbal arts. After Gale Stinger gets upgraded in CS II, Gaius has four different M-size AoE crafts (two lines, two circles), primarily differentiated by what status effects they can cause. Would it really be so terrible if one of them was single target (with a damage or unbalance rate increase to make up for it)?
I'd settle for a couple of master quartz that alter the functionality of the bearer's basic attack, though. Most players were underwhelmed by Tauros in the first CS (I've been meaning to check if it boosts counter and link attack damage; if it does, it can turn out to be really good on Fie linked to a fast character, especially with the Wrath quartz on her), but it's an idea I'd like to see Falcom explore further. I'd probably even prefer this approach. Would be nice to see a JRPG in which the basic attack retains its relevancy throughout the entire game instead of being the last resort for characters who are out of juice or the option to use if you want to conserve resources.
I played it in Spring 2014 so SC wasn't out by that point. By the time SC came out life happened and I just never got around to it (I have SC and TC already bought because I wanted to support). Now I use a Mac (I bought them for PC) so I would have to find a PC to play them, while I had CS1 sitting around for Vita (which I also bought at launch) so I decided to give that a go last month. It's a weird set of circumstances
You forgot Joshua's Cloak and Dagger (damage and KO) and Agate's Spiral Edge (damage + AT Delay to a single target), so FC alone has four exceptions to the proposed "single target equals Impede" pattern: Dual Strike, Cloak and Dagger, Spiral Edge, and Smite. Later games in the trilogy introduce even more: Anelace gets two single target crafts (Eight-Leaf Blitz deals damage, Fallen Leaves causes AT Delay on top of it), Kevin has Crossgear Rage (just damage at first; gets upgraded to cause AT Delay), Kurt has not Shadow Spear (damage and KO), and Mueller knows Ragna Bind (damage, vacuum, Faint) and Blade Dance (damage, Confuse) in addition to Mirage Edge (no damage at all, Impede, Mute). There's also Josette with Stampede (damage, DEF Down) and Anchor Flail (damage, Faint), but her low STR does mean that they might as well be straight debuffs. Finally, Schera gets Fox Tail in Sky the 3rd, which has Richard-tier low delay, while Tita learns Charge (high damage and Faint for paltry 10 CP) after you complete her Moon Door. Only Julia fully conforms to the "single target equals Impede" pattern with her sole single target option being Lanzenreiter (damage, Impede).
Joshua's Cloak and Dagger was completely useless, but good call on mentioning the Single Target AT delay skills. I don't mind the existence of single target skills is if they're worth it, I just think don't think CS was wrong to have so few of them given the game set up.
Free 500 extra damage per hit can add up to a considerable amount fairly quickly once SPD Up enters the picture. As you allude to, Flamberge also possesses a higher unbalance rate, which translates into even more damage, as well as CP generation for the character Alisa is linked to. Flamberge may be bad in regular encounters, but has its niche when there's only one target to take care of, which is not an unheard of situation.
Not is isn't, not when damage gets up to ridiculously high numbers, and S+ tier damage skills are factored in. Flamberge is alright, but it got power crept pretty hard; i'm shocked they didn't give it line range.
There are plenty of bosses in both arcs that come with backup at first, but are incapable of summoning reinforcements. Once the backup is dead (and it's usually considerably squishier than the primary opponent), it's best to switch to single target attacks if you wish to maximize CP efficiency. Bosses that fly solo for the entire duration of a fight also exist. Finally, AoE attacks are very resource-inefficient if a small number of enemies is spaced so that there are large gaps between them. You don't want to drop an XL-size or an all hitting AoE to hit only two opponents.
These backups tend to have similar durability as the boss; it's rare to finish off one much sooner than the other. There are cases of course (like the enforcer battles in SC), but most single target skills are outmatched by ATS skills in terms of damage.
May I ask why you appear to be so opposed to the idea of single target options? I'm not asking for entire craft sets full of nothing but them, just for one move (out of 4-6) on most characters, particularly on those who have low ATS and can't expand their natural options via orbal arts. After Gale Stinger gets upgraded in CS II, Gaius has four different M-size AoE crafts (two lines, two circles), primarily differentiated by what status effects they can cause. Would it really be so terrible if one of them was single target (with a damage or unbalance rate increase to make up for it)?
There's no real incentive to having them set up that way. Unlike most RPGs, you typically fight many enemies on screen, so I don't see their appeal. I'm not completely against them (having 1-2 single target skills with appropriately powerful efcects is fine), I just don't think it's amazing.
I'd settle for a couple of master quartz that alter the functionality of the bearer's basic attack, though. Most players were underwhelmed by Tauros in the first CS (I've been meaning to check if it boosts counter and link attack damage; if it does, it can turn out to be really good on Fie linked to a fast character, especially with the Wrath quartz on her), but it's an idea I'd like to see Falcom explore further. I'd probably even prefer this approach. Would be nice to see a JRPG in which the basic attack retains its relevancy throughout the entire game instead of being the last resort for characters who are out of juice or the option to use if you want to conserve resources.
Yeah, making basic attacks more appealing is a good idea. CSIII sort of achieves this with the exorbitant cost of CP skills (CP skills can cost up to 80)
I played it in Spring 2014 so SC wasn't out by that point. By the time SC came out life happened and I just never got around to it (I have SC and TC already bought because I wanted to support). Now I use a Mac (I bought them for PC) so I would have to find a PC to play them, while I had CS1 sitting around for Vita (which I also bought at launch) so I decided to give that a go last month. It's a weird set of circumstances
i remember finishing FC and the years after waiting for any news on SC existing ._.
Anyway what i want to say is if you bought them on Gog you can emulate them through WINE, someone on the XSEED forums has posted in detail how he set it up to work with the game and he spoke highly of it so that might be an option. I'm actually in the same boat but luckily i still have a family pc i can access for these games.
I played it in Spring 2014 so SC wasn't out by that point. By the time SC came out life happened and I just never got around to it (I have SC and TC already bought because I wanted to support). Now I use a Mac (I bought them for PC) so I would have to find a PC to play them, while I had CS1 sitting around for Vita (which I also bought at launch) so I decided to give that a go last month. It's a weird set of circumstances
I see. For what it's worth, it may be possible to run the PC game on your Mac, if you're willing to dabble a little bit with WINE ( https://www.winehq.org/). I only own a linux PC, and most of English Trails was fine using WINE (I had some difficulties with CS1 at first, but later updates solved them, except my box isn't powerful enough to play the game at 60FPS). Don't know how to install/use WINE on Mac, though.
Boot Camp might be on option to get Windows running on your Mac. Since you could use that same partition to play all remaining Sky games, I think that could be worth it. Would need to get your hand on a Windows license, though.
Boot Camp might be on option to get Windows running on your Mac. Since you could use that same partition to play all remaining Sky games, I think that could be worth it. Would need to get your hand on a Windows license, though.
Cloak and Dagger is better than you'd think in the first Sky game.
The Capuas and the Ravens are fully susceptible to KO in all of their appearances, for instance.
The Deathblow quartz boosts the success rate to 28% (1 - (1 - 0.2) * (1 - 0.1)), so using it is not the worst strategy in some boss fights, if you don't mind the RNG dependency. It does get mostly useless in the later games, and I do agree that KO is an effect that naturally belongs on AoE attacks because it tends to only work in regular encounters, which almost never have you fight only one enemy.
Not is isn't, not when damage gets up to ridiculously high numbers, and S+ tier damage skills are factored in. Flamberge is alright, but it got power crept pretty hard; i'm shocked they didn't give it line range.
Time for more numbers! These come from the Finale of CS II, unlike the previous batch, which was recorded in the middle of Act II because Rean and Laura had not upgraded to Flame Dragon and Radiant Spin at that point yet, and I felt it was not fair to compare Flamberge 2 to unupgraded variants of those crafts.
Characters used: Rean, Laura, Alisa. All three had STR of 2100.
Enemies used as practice dummies: Ebony Pawns. Their DEF is 2691.
Approximate damage dealt by the basic attack (averaged from 9 attacks: 3 made by Rean, 3 made by Laura, 3 made by Alisa): 1866.
Approximate damage dealt by True Autumn Leaf Cutter (averaged from 3 uses): 2571 (+705 points compared to the basic attack, approximately 35 points per CP spent).
Approximate damage dealt by Flamberge 2 (averaged from 3 uses): 3489 (+1623 points compared to the basic attack, approximately 81 points per CP spent).
Approximate damage dealt by True Armor Breaker (averaged from 3 uses): 3719 (+1853 points compared to the basic attack, approximately 74 points per CP spent).
Approximate damage dealt by Flame Dragon (averaged from 3 uses): 4590 (+2724 points compared to the basic attack, approximately 61 points per CP spent).
Approximate damage dealt by Radiant Spin (averaged from 3 uses): 4540 (+2674 points compared to the basic attack, approximately 53 points per CP spent).
Against these enemies, the damage increase from True Autumn Leaf Cutter to Flamberge 2 (918) is only 183 points less than the damage increase from Flamberge 2 to Flame Dragon (1101). In addition, Flamberge 2 costs the same as True Autumn Leaf Cutter, but to go from Flamberge 2 to Flame Dragon you have to pay 25 CP more. It is inconsistent to downplay the damage difference between True Autumn Leaf Cutter and Flamberge 2 only to claim that the difference between Flamberge 2 and S+ crafts constitutes a "pretty hard power creep".
These backups tend to have similar durability as the boss; it's rare to finish off one much sooner than the other. There are cases of course (like the enforcer battles in SC), but most single target skills are outmatched by ATS skills in terms of damage.
Duvalie (Aurochs Fort) - 203010 HP
Sleipnir - 76000 HP
Altina (Karel Imperial Villa) - 235404 HP
G-Zephyranthes - 119712 HP
Bleublanc (Infernal Castle) - 266640 HP
Duvalie - 259440 HP
Balancing Clown - 134708 HP
McBurn (Infernal Castle) - 436864 HP
Elvavria R - 151625 HP
The HP of backup enemies falls in the range of 34 to 51 percent of the main enemies' HP in these fights. Arts can't be the primary single target offensive option in some fights, either. The last boss mentioned in my spoiler is immune to fire and has a 50% resistance to all other elements. Single target magic crafts would be pretty effective against him, if there were any!
There's no real incentive to having them set up that way. Unlike most RPGs, you typically fight many enemies on screen, so I don't see their appeal. I'm not completely against them (having 1-2 single target skills with appropriately powerful efcects is fine), I just don't think it's amazing.
I simply tend to value resource efficiency extremely high, higher than actual damage ouput in many cases (within reason). Therefore, I dislike paying for extra range when I'm not making use of it.
Yeah, making basic attacks more appealing is a good idea. CSIII sort of achieves this with the exorbitant cost of CP skills (CP skills can cost up to 80)
Cloak and Dagger is better than you'd think in the first Sky game.
The Capuas and the Ravens are fully susceptible to KO in all of their appearances, for instance.
The Deathblow quartz boosts the success rate to 28% (1 - (1 - 0.2) * (1 - 0.1)), so using it is not the worst strategy in some boss fights, if you don't mind the RNG dependency. It does get mostly useless in the later games, and I do agree that KO is an effect that naturally belongs on AoE attacks because it tends to only work in regular encounters, which almost never have you fight only one enemy.
You never have access to Cloak and Dagger when fighting the Capuas, so it's irrelevant to this discussion. The Ravens are better dealt with White Gehanna and/or other AoE arts/crafts, and I can't think of any other boss that's susceptible to instant death. Cloak and Dagger is just a completely unnecessary craft at all points of FC.
Time for more numbers! These come from the Finale of CS II, unlike the previous batch, which was recorded in the middle of Act II because Rean and Laura had not upgraded to Flame Dragon and Radiant Spin at that point yet, and I felt it was not fair to compare Flamberge 2 to unupgraded variants of those crafts.
Characters used: Rean, Laura, Alisa. All three had STR of 2100.
Enemies used as practice dummies: Ebony Pawns. Their DEF is 2691.
Approximate damage dealt by the basic attack (averaged from 9 attacks: 3 made by Rean, 3 made by Laura, 3 made by Alisa): 1866.
Approximate damage dealt by True Autumn Leaf Cutter (averaged from 3 uses): 2571 (+705 points compared to the basic attack, approximately 35 points per CP spent).
Approximate damage dealt by Flamberge 2 (averaged from 3 uses): 3489 (+1623 points compared to the basic attack, approximately 81 points per CP spent).
Approximate damage dealt by True Armor Breaker (averaged from 3 uses): 3719 (+1853 points compared to the basic attack, approximately 74 points per CP spent).
Approximate damage dealt by Flame Dragon (averaged from 3 uses): 4590 (+2724 points compared to the basic attack, approximately 61 points per CP spent).
Approximate damage dealt by Radiant Spin (averaged from 3 uses): 4540 (+2674 points compared to the basic attack, approximately 53 points per CP spent).
Against these enemies, the damage increase from True Autumn Leaf Cutter to Flamberge 2 (918) is only 183 points less than the damage increase from Flamberge 2 to Flame Dragon (1101). In addition, Flamberge 2 costs the same as True Autumn Leaf Cutter, but to go from Flamberge 2 to Flame Dragon you have to pay 25 CP more. It is inconsistent to downplay the damage difference between True Autumn Leaf Cutter and Flamberge 2 only to claim that the difference between Flamberge 2 and S+ crafts constitutes a "pretty hard power creep".
I appreciate the effort, but I still feel you're off base here. True Autumn Leaf cutter is a niche craft in general, but it's still more valuable than Flamberge 2 due to its range and delay. Sure, it's technically weaker than Flamberge, but it doesn't shake out that way in practice due to Rean's superior strength. Flamberge 2 vs Flame Dragon isn't even up for discussion; the sheer damage difference, range, unbalance and faint chance put it ahead of Flamberge by a significant margin. Its exorbitant craft cost is more than made up for how easy it is to sustain CP in Cold Steel.
Duvalie (Aurochs Fort) - 203010 HP
Sleipnir - 76000 HP
Altina (Karel Imperial Villa) - 235404 HP
G-Zephyranthes - 119712 HP
Bleublanc (Infernal Castle) - 266640 HP
Duvalie - 259440 HP
Balancing Clown - 134708 HP
McBurn (Infernal Castle) - 436864 HP
Elvavria R - 151625 HP
The HP of backup enemies falls in the range of 34 to 51 percent of the main enemies' HP in these fights. Arts can't be the primary single target offensive option in some fights, either. The last boss mentioned in my spoiler is immune to fire and has a 50% resistance to all other elements. Single target magic crafts would be pretty effective against him, if there were any!
I simply tend to value resource efficiency extremely high, higher than actual damage ouput in many cases (within reason). Therefore, I dislike paying for extra range when I'm not making use of it.[/QUOTE]
You've pretty much proved my argument. The first boss has 203010 HP and the sub enemy has 76000 HP. These are extremely high values that require chipping away to be manageable. This is why AoE crafts are so valuable; you can wear down both enemies and eventually remove the weaker enemy in order to focus on the boss. This was how the Sky games were played a well. I'm not inherently against powerful single target skills in general, i'm just arguing against the assertion that FC was "better" at balancing single and multi target skills than CS. With the exception of a few skills (which also exist in CS!) AoE skills vastly outweigh single target.
Just... wow. I knew something big was going to happen when the message that recording has been stopped because I entered a blocked scene popped up... it was the first time in the whole game I saw that message. I'm still not sure what to think of what just happened, it was pretty dense with context. What will Towa think when she finds out :(
Got through the first walk around in Chapter 4 and needed to get started on my own homework. This game, I swear.
It is: same damage and chance of inflicting Faint as Flame Impact for two thirds of the cost, plus a higher chance of unbalancing the target (Dizzying Blow has a 50% boost compared to Flame Impact's 30%). It can't set things on fire, but it applies Balance Down, which is arguably the most reliable status effect in the game: nobody resists it, and it lasts for full 3 turns even on enemies who normally reduce the duration of ailments to 1 turn.
You never have access to Cloak and Dagger when fighting the Capuas, so it's irrelevant to this discussion. The Ravens are better dealt with White Gehanna and/or other AoE arts/crafts, and I can't think of any other boss that's susceptible to instant death. Cloak and Dagger is just a completely unnecessary craft at all points of FC.
The Capuas return in the finale with their vulnerability to KO intact. The Intelligence Division goons are also susceptible in their earlier appearances in Ruan and Zeiss, when they pose the greatest danger to the party.
I appreciate the effort, but I still feel you're off base here. True Autumn Leaf cutter is a niche craft in general, but it's still more valuable than Flamberge 2 due to its range and delay. Sure, it's technically weaker than Flamberge, but it doesn't shake out that way in practice due to Rean's superior strength. Flamberge 2 vs Flame Dragon isn't even up for discussion; the sheer damage difference, range, unbalance and faint chance put it ahead of Flamberge by a significant margin. Its exorbitant craft cost is more than made up for how easy it is to sustain CP in Cold Steel.
I'm not trying to pass Flamberge 2 for a paragon of sheer power. The point I'm arguing is that against a single target, single target attacks tend to deal more damage than AoE attacks of equivalent cost and thus cannot be considered to be inherently inferior and obsolete. Dizzying Blow, priced at 30 CP, already matches Flame Impact's power. If they existed, single target crafts priced at 40-50 CP, would be even more powerful.
You've pretty much proved my argument. The first boss has 203010 HP and the sub enemy has 76000 HP. These are extremely high values that require chipping away to be manageable. This is why AoE crafts are so valuable; you can wear down both enemies and eventually remove the weaker enemy in order to focus on the boss. This was how the Sky games were played a well.
You're the one proving my point by admitting that the backup dies halfway through the fight if you open with a barrage of AoEs (as you should). Once this happens, switching to single target attacks is more efficient. AoE attacks perform better in the first half of a fight, single target ones perform better in the latter one. Both are tools that perform better in some circumstances and worse in others. Both deserve inclusion in craft sets.
I'm not inherently against powerful single target skills in general, i'm just arguing against the assertion that FC was "better" at balancing single and multi target skills than CS. With the exception of a few skills (which also exist in CS!) AoE skills vastly outweigh single target.
There are 16 playable characters in Trails in the Sky 3rd. 13 characters out of 16 (81.25%) have offensive single target crafts. 14, if you count Estelle's S-Crafts. There are 20 playable characters in Trails of Cold Steel II (23 if you include the Epilogue's very special guests). Only 6 characters out 20 (30%, or 26% if you go with 23 as the total number of playable characters) have offensive single target crafts. Two of them are guests and can be used for a limited time, and Machias "upgrades" his Break Shot to a more expensive line.
The Capuas return in the finale with their vulnerability to KO intact. The Intelligence Division goons are also susceptible in their earlier appearances in Ruan and Zeiss, when they pose the greatest danger to the party.
Oh I forgot. That doesn't really change my argument though. The Intelligence Division goons make up some of the most dangerous units in the game, and risking a risky attack against units that can delay and deal heavy damage to your party is a bad idea.
I'm not trying to pass Flamberge 2 for a paragon of sheer power. The point I'm arguing is that against a single target, single target attacks tend to deal more damage than AoE attacks of equivalent cost and thus cannot be considered to be inherently inferior and obsolete. Dizzying Blow, priced at 30 CP, already matches Flame Impact's power. If they existed, single target crafts priced at 40-50 CP, would be even more powerful.
No disagreements here. I mean, that's inherent to most games out there and CS even shows you the base power.
You're the one proving my point by admitting that the backup dies halfway through the fight if you open with a barrage of AoEs (as you should). Once this happens, switching to single target attacks is more efficient. AoE attacks perform better in the first half of a fight, single target ones perform better in the latter one. Both are tools that perform better in some circumstances and worse in others. Both deserve inclusion in craft sets.
Certain CS AoE skills are effective against single target units as well. They're designed to be effective against both (ie: the skills that cause delay or have a high unbalance chance). So it's not really that big of a deal if these games are lax on single target skills. I mean I wouldn't mind if Flame Dragon became a single target skill (since it makes Gale redundant, rip) but it's not really that bothersome to me.
There are 16 playable characters in Trails in the Sky 3rd. 13 characters out of 16 (81.25%) have offensive single target crafts. 14, if you count Estelle's S-Crafts. There are 20 playable characters in Trails of Cold Steel II (23 if you include the Epilogue's very special guests). Only 6 characters out 20 (30%, or 26% if you go with 23 as the total number of playable characters) have offensive single target crafts. Two of them are guests and can be used for a limited time, and Machias "upgrades" his Break Shot to a more expensive line.
As I've mentioned earlier, many of those single target skills are poor or flawed in some way. CS's consolidation of single target into multi-target was not a bad thing.
Finished my replay of Cold Steel today. Defeating the final boss on the first try while having only 34 of health remaining was cathartic.
Man, I love this game to bits despite the obvious problems it has due to the troubled development.
What I think makes me like this subseries more than Sky is the NPCs. Trista and Thors, and the fact that you return to it the whole game, makes for the most engaging NPCs in this franchise, and all the games I've played for that matter. It's mindblowing that I can pinpoint 3 different subplots for a mere background character like Vincent Florald (trying to pick up girls and failing, him trying to escape Margarita, and his deep love and support for her sister). Having a HUB of some sort for this series works wonderfully in my opinion, if they get the scale right. I played Zero with the leaked translation and Crossbell got too big way too fast (don't recomend the patch by the way. I just did it because I was one click away of purchasing Sen 3 despite knowing absolutely zero japanese).
While the Cold Steel games eventually get really big in term of towns and NPCs, they try to limit the scale at first with the field trips, and when it really opens up, you're already one game and a half deep and as such deeply invested in all those places, or at least I was.
I don't know, I have a good amount of issues with these games as well, the pacing of Rean's character arc due to the game been divided into two parts being the most egregious to me (funnily enough I don't have issues with the story's pacing, and I still like Rean quite a lot, even if he's nowhere near Estelle), but I don't know, it just clicks with me, I even enjoy its high school setting despite hating high school settings.
It reminds me a lot of the Dressrossa arc in One Piece (I love to compare Trails to One Piece by the way, you can stop me if it gets out of control), messy due to handling so much stuff at once with some spotty characterization and overlong, but I loved the hell out of it and it's my favorite arc of One Piece. I feel the same way about Cold Steel.
The non spoilery detail that people might be interested in is:
Falcom originally planned to conclude the arc with Sen III, but realised it would be too much to cram in one game. (I think he adds that he wants to limit subsequent arcs to two games)
It's crazy how they thought of plot for the Erebonia Arc during Crossbell development but Osborne was referenced by title all the way back in FC. Falcom's attention to detail is amazing.
If the series are at 60-70%, how many games do you guys expect until the story's complete? I'm thinking after SenIV, two Calvard games and then the final arc.
Yeah, I can't think of many games, or stories in other media for that matter, that think so far ahead. They must have an employee only for making sure the newer games don't contradict the first ones.
And on top they are faster than guys like Stephen King or G.R.R. Martin...
It's not like they couldn't expand the story to give the last 10% more attention, being the great finale.
Also, I am kinda expecting future Zemuria games, don't see them just dropping this world. Might jump around to a new place and time, though.
It's crazy how they thought of plot for the Erebonia Arc during Crossbell development but Osborne was referenced by title all the way back in FC. Falcom's attention to detail is amazing.
If the series are at 60-70%, how many games do you guys expect until the story's complete? I'm thinking after SenIV, two Calvard games and then the final arc.
Little things like make me want to replay FC and SC and see just how many little connections there are to the future titles. I doubt there will ever be a "final" ending to the story. Time skips and new areas for sure but never a true ending.
Falcom originally planned to conclude the arc with Sen III, but realised it would be too much to cram in one game. (I think he adds that he wants to limit subsequent arcs to two games)
I think there will be 2 more arcs, so 4 more games excluding Sen 4.
I'm already thinking about what they'd do when they finally finish the whole series. I bet Falcom would want another long saga, it's their trademark at this point.
I think there will be 2 more arcs, so 4 more games excluding Sen 4.
I'm already thinking about what they'd do when they finally finish the whole series. I bet Falcom would want another long saga, it's their trademark at this point.
I think there will be 2 more arcs, so 4 more games excluding Sen 4.
I'm already thinking about what they'd do when they finally finish the whole series. I bet Falcom would want another long saga, it's their trademark at this point.
i think so too. Two games for Calvard where we might have two Sept-Terrions and then two games on Arteria/Leman with the big finale of all Sept-Terrion together.
If they finish after 20 years I bet they will give the saga a break to focus a bit more on Ys again, perhaps do a remake of Gagharv as Kondo dreams of a lot and some other games they might have thought about. They probably will be drained by the time they finish this saga i'd assume..
