Surejan
Le français poursuit son déclin au Québec comme au Canada
Si le nombre de personnes l’utilisant a augmenté, leur proportion a diminué au profit de l’anglais.www.ledevoir.com
So dead 93% of the province can speak it
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Korean restaurant in Quebec City to reopen after facing harassment for lack of French
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So dead 93% of the province can speak it
It also misses the point that even if Quebec French is dying, that still does not make it okay to suppress/erase the language of the native population or other minorities within the province. It's actually extremely hypocritical to whine that French is dying when Quebec has been trying to culturally eradicate the language and culture of minorities for quite a while now. That's not even touching the new restrictions on religious symbols that no one really cares about when it comes to crosses but headscarves? Must be eradicated!
The thing is, the analogous situation in America would be if a state passed a law to enshrine something "other" than English as their primary language. French is a minority language in Canada for all intents and purposes.
Oh don't get me wrong, I don't agree with the way they're solving this problem (and figure part of it is an excuse to be racist but legally), but for the people who wonder why Quebec would even want to do such a thing in the first place, they need to know French and Quebec/Canadian French might as well be 2 different languages at this point.
Quebec City has it's load of racist radio brainwashed morons but you need to read more stories.
My wife and I recently moved to Canada, and Montreal definitely would have been an option (have family there), but we ended up in St John, NB, partially because of the language barrier concerns. Upsetting to hear about the harassment, but it's strange they weren't aware of the law, especially since they moved from NB. Glad to hear they got assistance and are reopening.
The core difference is that Quebec enlisted the first of these laws in the 70s due to how disproportionally more privileged the English Canadians were against the French Canadians, and to balance the playing field. Nowadays, the population of English-speaking Quebecois of European descent from my understanding has decreased, especially in places like Montreal but they're still there fighting for their rights.
The issue now is that immigrants fall under the microscope of these laws, and doubly so with the 2 new bills, Quebec's govt has passed to make shit worse for them. It really is an Uno card sort of situation which limits immigrants' success to the point of wanting to limit immigration as a whole. When I say white supremacy is being handwaved, it definitely is a key concern that'll hit people like a truck every few years in Quebec and even harder for those who are outside of Quebec being confused at how this shit is okay.
Okay, speaking as someone who actually lived in Quebec:
French is absolutely, 100% in danger of dying out in Quebec. Things were really trending that way until the modern language laws were put into place.
On one hand, it's totally rational. A lot of rural Quebec, and large parts of urban Quebec, are populated by people who don't speak English at all, and there was this looming threat of not being able to survive in their own province. If within a generation the entire world around you stopped speaking your language, how would you feel about that? The French language laws completely reversed that, and ensured they wouldn't end up strangers in their own home.
THAT SAID
It's also rooted in insane xenophobia. One of the biggest reasons these laws exist is to make sure no one dares to immigrate there. Hell, Quebec did an internal report to determine that it was borderline impossible to learn French in six months, just to put in a law that kicks out refugees if they don't learn French in six months. So much of the government bureaucracy there is designed to benefit people who were born there and keep out everyone who wasn't.
So, yes. The rationale behind the laws are legitimate. But their design and implementation is just toxic and destructive nationalism. Let's not forget that this is the same province that, while we lived there, ruled that Muslim women weren't allowed to teach in public schools, and bus drivers were allowed to stop them from boarding buses. And the police arrested a black woman for laughing too loudly on a downtown sidewalk in the middle of the afternoon. And every weekend there's a giant protest in downtown Montreal, and always for the opposite thing that you'd think.
And yet, yes, French was/is in danger.
French is absolutely, 100% in danger of dying out in Quebec. Things were really trending that way until the modern language laws were put into place.
On one hand, it's totally rational. A lot of rural Quebec, and large parts of urban Quebec, are populated by people who don't speak English at all, and there was this looming threat of not being able to survive in their own province. If within a generation the entire world around you stopped speaking your language, how would you feel about that? The French language laws completely reversed that, and ensured they wouldn't end up strangers in their own home.
THAT SAID
It's also rooted in insane xenophobia. One of the biggest reasons these laws exist is to make sure no one dares to immigrate there. Hell, Quebec did an internal report to determine that it was borderline impossible to learn French in six months, just to put in a law that kicks out refugees if they don't learn French in six months. So much of the government bureaucracy there is designed to benefit people who were born there and keep out everyone who wasn't.
So, yes. The rationale behind the laws are legitimate. But their design and implementation is just toxic and destructive nationalism. Let's not forget that this is the same province that, while we lived there, ruled that Muslim women weren't allowed to teach in public schools, and bus drivers were allowed to stop them from boarding buses. And the police arrested a black woman for laughing too loudly on a downtown sidewalk in the middle of the afternoon. And every weekend there's a giant protest in downtown Montreal, and always for the opposite thing that you'd think.
And yet, yes, French was/is in danger.
Seems like the story has a good ending, although not many seem to have read the whole article
His "mistake" isn't a excuse for all the threatening morons though.
I hope he succeeds!
His "mistake" isn't a excuse for all the threatening morons though.
I hope he succeeds!
I remember getting yelled at by some rando for not speaking french when I went to Quebec. Good times.
These threads are always entertaining. People having such strong opinions about a situation they understand very little about.
LOL, as if it's gonna happen.
I'm sure French speakers not being able to be served in French in Montreal will be a-okay with it as long as French is thriving in Senegal.
Happened 10 years. Was an administrative fuck-up and pretty much derided by everyone. Time to move on.
Also in this case, the Korean food items were translated in English on the menu. Anyway, seems like everything has been worked out for everyone, so good. I wish them the best.
LOL, as if it's gonna happen.
I'm sure French speakers not being able to be served in French in Montreal will be a-okay with it as long as French is thriving in Senegal.
Happened 10 years. Was an administrative fuck-up and pretty much derided by everyone. Time to move on.
Also in this case, the Korean food items were translated in English on the menu. Anyway, seems like everything has been worked out for everyone, so good. I wish them the best.
I mean I've been chastized for not speaking proper French by an American in the US.
You'll find rando weirdo racists literally everywhere.
As someone moving to Montreal from Toronto in January this article has me spooked and doubting myself.
Every single thread about Quebec on this site is exhausting. There's a reason none of us wanted a Quebec election OT.
Don't be. Montreal works well when you speak english, and learning a new language if you don't speak french right now, and you want to learn, is always a good thing. There are defintively imbeciles and racists, but don't let the potential of assholes drive you away.
Edit :
Yeah, some of the takes in this thread are honestly tiring.
For real, I could hear an argument about "legally harassing" but outright just acting like an asshat?
It's not even a correct way to handle nearly all situations.
Hopefully he can move to a different part of Canada if he knows abit of english in the future so he doesn't have to deal with assholes like that anymore.
The article is light on actual details, would be curious to know why he made the move there and how hastily he made it.
The article is light on actual details, would be curious to know why he made the move there and how hastily he made it.
I have been learning or rather re-learning French. Have been now for 2 months. My reading and comprehension have greatly improved. But my conversational or even written isn't that great.
You'll be just fine speaking primarily English in Montreal while you learn French. As long as you make an effort to speak French when and where you can most people will cut you slack and do their best to communicate with you however they can. When it works it's one of the best features of Montreal, as is having a good friend that talks to you in French while you talk to them in English and you understand each other perfectly fine.
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I was being sarcastic. Granted, that's exactly how some people see it and are fine with it.
If a language is going to naturally die out then it's going to die out. The question back to the Francophiles then is what makes them so deserving of government protection that they need to favor their language to the exclusion of the natural momentum of the population?
You'll be fine, don't worry. Like Thanatos said, as long as people feel like you are making an effort, even french-only speakers will make sure that you feel confortable and included in the convos. There's always assholes, true, but that's really impossible to not find some in some form, whether you are in Quebec, Alberta or Toronto.
Edit :
I mean, that could be applied to pretty much any situation where a language dies out, from first nations dialect, to local dialect over the world, like those from France i linked earlier in the thread. I don't think you'll receive much warm responses asking to any type of minority group why they deserve to have a part of their culture (and a language and its quirks are def part of a culture) preserved.
I mean if that's what the people living there vote for, who are you to say that their government can't provide that protection exactly?
ITT: Majority English-speakers who have never had their language/culture being threatened advocating in favor of cultural assimilation. Gotcha.
Yeah, and I'd say the same thing about those as well. Language is not some sacred thing, it's a tool for communication. To the extent that it overlaps with cultural identity then I'm all for preserving it but if it's going to naturally die out then so be it. Linguistic prescriptivism is a bad thing, in my opinion, and completely misses the point of language as a living thing.
Have you considered that on top of being in the midst of a global service worker shortage, that being Korean and relatively new to the French language would turn off a worker pool that is openly hostile to accommodating FSL-learners?
Feels like a catch 22 where even if you were trying to aggressively assimilate, the harrasment and/or unwillingness to extend an olive branch from the French-speaking community would make it difficult to keep your business open while you study.
Come on now, one could easily argue that the language and culture that needs protection the most in Quebec (and in Canada in general) is First Nations, and people wouldn't be wrong about that. While some in this thread have less of an understanding of how Quebec functions I don't think they are wrong that Quebec's current way of going about protecting the French language will ultimately be ineffective, because I think it's kind of inevitable for languages to dilute as multiculturalism increases. It's why, as someone that has lived in Quebec for nearly 40 years, I advocate for less conflicted methods that don't step on the feet of minorities and more positive promotion of the French language.
this is the most disgusting fucking thing to say when the topic is about a korean person. jesus christ.
More like ITT: Quebec Francophones deciding that racist and bigoted policy is good because it preserves their own sense of community at the expense of alienating and allowing minorities to be legally harassed.
It is fine and good to have a desire for your culture to be preserved; It is bad and inhumane to desire that at the expense of people who are discriminated against worldwide.
Essentially, this. Francophone Quebecois are no longer a minority within their own province and it primarily serves to enforce White Supremacy these days.
There's a big difference between wanting to preserve your own culture and wanting to enforce it on the rest of the population.
I was responding to his very specific comment/argument that we should maybe just let French die.
In no way am I trying to downplay the situation of the initial argument.
Rich to talk about that with the discrimination in law Quebec has against Muslims and Sikh's who are in no way endangering language or culture by just wearing a hijab or turban.
Don't really agree. Personally, i see the fact that language is one of our main tool for communication are a reason why it needs to be preserved. The way we shape our thoughts and communicate them to others, and they way they are perceived are cornerstones to how a culture is passed from groups to group. Language evolve, and die out, true, but it's not a might make right situation, and the losses are maybe subtle, (a work of art is interpreted differently since the words take a different meaning, a community is assimilated and gradually loses their camaraderie), but they exists.
No, no. It's fine because uh...
Reads the smudges on my hand
It's better for a minority population to assimilate than preserve their own sense of community and culture. Because it's more convenient for me.
Can you name a language that did not originate in media that does not overlap with a people's cultural identity?
This needs to be repeated in practically every Quebec-related thread.
Unless you think AtomicShroom said that he was happy with those laws, there's really not much hypocrisy in his argument. The idea that he is against cultural assimilation and the fact that he has to live with some of the shit laws passed are not exclusive.
Just watching Quebec continue its racist and xenophobic temper tantrum to get immigrants to assimilate.
Don't get me wrong, you are absolutely correct. My only point is that language and the cultural identity that it has a symbiotic relationship with is not some fixed-in-time thing, and any attempts to force it to be are going to be at best be doomed to failure, and at worst will actively favor one cultural group at the expense of another.
Language of colonialism wants to protect their colonist language while filtering out the other colonialist language of the area all while no one really cares about the actual original language of the area or cares at all about protecting the culture around it or the people that use it.
Was about to post this. Granting primacy to one colonist culture 'in defense against others' has never felt much like justice to me.
Pat of SuperBestFriends fame ended up moving to British Columbia over the summer because of all the bullshit in Quebec about harassment if you aren't fluent in French.
Frankly most comparisons to what if your country stopped speaking language X are a bit disingenuous, since Quebec is still part of Canada, at least until they hold a referendum again or whatever, so it is really more like what if your bilingual country stopped speaking one of the languages very slowly, while that language is literally one of the top 5 most spoken languages in the world because the French did colonialism real """good""", and the other language that your country is now primarily speaking is the most spoken language in the world because the English/British also did colonialism real """good""", both of them in the place that you are now living no less.
Considering the quebec french dialect have some noticeable differences from France french, and that losing it would mean the end of that specific version, that seems like a over-simplification. (For an idea, a lot of ppl from France that visits quebec have difficulties understanding it due to the accent, the words difference, expressions, syntax, turn of phrase, etc.)
A lot of times a language's relationship with its culture changes because of the barbarity of forced assimilation and colonialism. If you're punishing people for speaking a certain language, no shit their language might eventually become endangered over time. Going "oh well, let it die" to this particular reality is something I vehemently disagree with.
This doesn't mean, however, that I'm okay with the harassment suffered by folks who don't speak Quebecoise French, and I'm not knowledgeable enough about the power dynamics of those who speak that to rule on the issue beyond that. But you said you'd say the same argument to even First Nations people, and frankly I wouldn't have the actual fucking audacity to go "fuck your language" to any indigenous group.
