Deleted member 888

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Yes and there would still be the standard mode for those people. No one is saying "if you are disabled you have to play the easy mode". I think you really are missing the point.

I'm not missing the point, I've already tried to politely cut through some of the rhetoric in here by bringing up examples of other games that have mechanically used difficulty for the good of the game world. From Bushido Blade to Gothic. There aren't too many outside of some puzzle games, that only get played on one difficulty. As I've said a few times now, From Software is a MINORITY in the majority of video game developers that have easy, if not story mode in their game (basically godmode). The mere fact they are the minority means the whole industry has largely gone how some in this topic say it should have, which is fine. I just don't see why one developer doing things a bit differently is such a big issue?

From Software is known as the developer you go to for a linear difficulty challenge, where the whole community taking part has to experience the enemies and bosses the same and the sharing, tips and co-op that can come with that. Co-Op is primarily an "accessibility tool" introduced via game design that isn't an arbitrary stat selector to reduce difficulty. Along with builds in the Souls games, meaning, go magic if you want it to be easier (generally speaking). Or there are some items to use or covenants to join that make things easier.

Even Sekiro still has some scope to make things easier, but yes I do agree nuking summoning from it has even alienated some Dark Souls fans. Parrying is a lot harder for some too.

This is all before we even talk about how to do arbitrary difficulty sliders with co-op. Someone earlier in this topic said we gate off people who choose difficulties into their own summoning brackets. That's just not... a Dark Souls game. That IS negatively affecting the experience.
 

Deleted member 8001

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It's kinda funny cause in like 10 years when Souls games are all emulated or whatever and have save states I wonder if people are gonna raise such a fuss about having the option for save states cause it ruins the "artistic integrity" of the game?
 

Fanta

Member
May 27, 2018
508
An inclusive experience still might not be for everyone if whatever condition they have causes struggles with fast-paced action. But who is the arbitrator of that? Why can't people with disabilities at least try?

Of course a game designer can't get around everything, but with companies like Microsoft creating their new accessible controller, there's no reason not to atleast try working around current difficulties in game design.

I really wonder how many posters in this topic have some sort of disability and how many are able-bodied people thinking they're being progressive heavily implying because something is challenging for them, how on earth could a less able-bodied

User Experience design has nothing to do with "wokeness" and trying to be the equivilant of the white man's burden.

User Experience design is a valid field that people put their lives work into to make day to day life more inclusive for every walk of life spread across different industries and to imply otherwise is pretty insulting to millions of people.
 

Deleted member 2550

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It's kinda funny cause in like 10 years when Souls games are all emulated or whatever and have save states I wonder if people are gonna raise such a fuss about having the option for save states cause it ruins the "artistic integrity" of the game?
Mods are a different discussion entirely. There are people out there already against savescumming, as it is sometimes referred to.
 

Glass Arrows

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Jan 10, 2019
1,414
It's kinda funny cause in like 10 years when Souls games are all emulated or whatever and have save states I wonder if people are gonna raise such a fuss about having the option for save states cause it ruins the "artistic integrity" of the game?

This isn't that relevant to your point, but I'd like to point out that this is already happening. Demon's Souls is reasonably playable on RCPS3 provided you have a beefy enough PC.
 
It's kinda funny cause in like 10 years when Souls games are all emulated or whatever and have save states I wonder if people are gonna raise such a fuss about having the option for save states cause it ruins the "artistic integrity" of the game?
there are plenty of hard games that are emulatable today that can be manipulated with those kinds of features and I don't really see people making a fuss because Emulation is and of itself is already manipulation of a developer's base vision of a game.
 

Fanta

Member
May 27, 2018
508
what you said:



this is, imo, absolute nonsense. you're demanding a level of 'universal accessibility' perfection that is completely unrealistic, & describing any effort that comes up short a 'failure'? sorry, but that's just completely ludicrous :) ...

Just because it's looks "unrealistic" doesn't mean companies shouldn't be striving to do better where they can.
 

Deleted member 888

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Of course a game designer can't get around everything, but with companies like Microsoft creating their new accessible controller, there's no reason not to atleast try working around current difficulties in game design.



User Experience design has nothing to do with "wokeness" and trying to be the equivilant of the white man's burden.

User Experience design is a valid field that people put their lives work into to make day to day life more inclusive for every walk of life spread across different industries and to imply otherwise is pretty insulting to millions of people.

And the user experience within the confines of what Souls games are aiming to be, is arguably the best in the industry. Why do you think From Software changed the industry? Why did others want to be "Souls like"? Why is Activision publishing a game without MTs, season pass and loot boxes?

Because From managed to take difficulty and make it accessible. Make it seem fair. They are not the only ones who have ever done this, or the first, but they went viral, Demons Souls while hard had many people play it and complete it. Then Dark Souls came along, after Sony completely misjudged Demons Souls doing well outside of Japan. So much so it left them scrambling to fund Bloodborne years later.

The market wanted something like this and a large part of that was because the user experience complimented all the marketing speak about being "the hardest game ever".

Souls games aren't though, they're basically puzzle games. Muscle memory. Learning boss patterns. There is a challenge but even for those like me who aren't the best, it tends to be overcome by repetition.

Insufferably hard games are probably more like some COD game on hardcore with 1,000 grenades being spammed at you and insta death from snipers 20km away. From Software games don't tend to be cheap and that is what makes the user experience flow well with the challenge.

The disservice many are doing in this topic by bringing up game design then not even suggesting they know why From Software is as popular as they are in their small slice of the market is head-scratching.
 

NCR Ranger

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Oct 25, 2017
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Saying a game isn't for someone isn't characterizing them as a weirdo. That graphic in this context feels pretty disingenuous when then one thing you dislike the most is one of the biggest things From's latest games are known for. That's like saying I love everything about a racing sim but hate the way the game focuses on realistic physics. It's just the one thing I dislike you know?

and yet every sim I have played lets you lower or turn off all the stuff that makes it realistic. I don't really play racing sims but World War II flight sims, and even submarine sims, were my jam for a while. I don't remember there ever being an argument that turning on invincibility, unlimited ammo, unlimited fuel, toning down the physics, and all the stuff that made it, at least at the time, a hardcore sim was somehow disrespecting the developers original vision or people questioning why you even like the game at all if you don't want it as realistic as possible.
 

Deleted member 2550

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But if they do some kind of Souls collection like a decade or so later, officially would that ruin the "artistic integrity" of the game?
One is the developer implementing it by their own choice. The other is the community using an emulator or developing mods. Both situations are fine. My problem has never been with the developer actually implementing an easy mode. It's been with the problem of some sort of mandate that a developer must implement one.
and yet every sim I have played lets you lower or turn off all the stuff that makes it realistic. I don't really play racing sims but World War II flight sims, and even submarine sims, were my jam for a while.
That's cool. The developers chose to implement that. I don't mind.
I don't remember there ever being an argument that turning on invincibility, unlimited ammo, unlimited fuel, toning down the physics, and all the stuff that made it, at least at the time, a hardcore sim was somehow disrespecting the developers original vision or people questioning why you even like the game at all if you don't want it as realistic as possible.
Responding to this that it's under the assumption that you're referring to third party cheats, which is also not something I have a problem with. If the dev slapped those cheats in, that's also their choice.

I don't think it's a problem for people to question why you like a game when you dislike the part they love about it the most. Them treating you poorly because of it is another thing.
 

marrec

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I really want to distance myself from the people say that inclusion of a difficulty mode makes games less enjoyable.

If a developer wants to include a difficulty mode, then I think we need to respect that decision. If a CRPG maker wants to make their game RtwP then we need to respect that decision...

However, we really need to stop acting as if this is a moral argument. It is not. From Software is NOT morally obligated to include a difficulty mode in their game that would make it so that more players can beat the game. That's why I want to separate this idea of difficulty and accessibility. We absolutely should strive to make more games more accessible to more people but we do that via control inputs and vision options and sound options.

If a game developer wants to make a game that CANNOT be beaten, then we need to respect their decision.

NOBODY is on Twitter right now complaining about Johan Sebastian Joust not being accessible to every player. That betrays the actual motivation behind this discourse I think.
 

Deleted member 32018

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I'm not missing the point, I've already tried to politely cut through some of the rhetoric in here by bringing up examples of other games that have mechanically used difficulty for the good of the game world. From Bushido Blade to Gothic. There aren't too many outside of some puzzle games, that only get played on one difficulty. As I've said a few times now, From Software is a MINORITY in the majority of video game developers that have easy, if not story mode in their game (basically godmode).

From Software is known as the developer you go to for a linear difficulty challenge, where the whole community taking part has to experience the enemies and bosses the same and the sharing, tips and co-op that can come with that. Co-Op is primarily an "accessibility tool" introduced via game design that isn't an arbitrary stat selector to reduce difficulty. Along with builds in the Souls games, meaning, go magic if you want it to be easier (generally speaking). Or there are some items to use or covenants to join that make things easier.

When you make points such as this:

I really wonder how many posters in this topic have some sort of disability and how many are able-bodied people thinking they're being progressive heavily implying because something is challenging for them, how on earth could a less able-bodied person do it?

I really do feel like you are missing the point and at the same time being extremely presumptuous.

Just to give you a taste of why having difficulty options are a good thing and why they won't harm your experience or 'community':

 

Deleted member 283

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And if the intent in design is NOT to be fully experienced by every person?
*Shrugs*

What if the intent of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword was to use Wii Motion+ to make it feel more like the player really was swinging a sword around (regardless of how successful that was or how good of an idea that was was wasn't)?

What if the developer intent was to tell a good story with Mass Effect 3, regardless of whether they succeeded or not?

What if the intent of Kid Icarus: Uprising's controls were to do whatever Sakurai was trying to do with them?

The point being, why does developer intent even matter at all or is relevant in any way, and why does it pop up in these discussions about difficulty/accessibility but even people such as myself, who personally absolutely love Kid Icarus: Uprising, don't go all art and developer intent to defend the controls and understand the complaints? Why does instead one of the few places it pops up are these difficulty/accessibility discussions and not otherwise to defend stuff like that because "well, it's what they intended though, so whatever"?

I just don't get the relevance and how that should factor in either way when it's ignored in those other discussions, so that it suddenly pops up in these discussions definitely sticks out to me. Intent doesn't magicly make something good (or bad) or beyond criticism or anything like that, and if in admits that and goes well yeah of course, then what's the point other than just to try and shut down discussions or something and in a way that isn't typically seen as valid in those other discussions such as KI:U's controls no matter how much developer intent went into it?

I just don't get why I should actually suddenly consider that relevant to this discussion in a way it rarely is for any of those others and why it matters at all either way.
 

Alek

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Quick reminder.


No one said that all gamers with disabilities experienced games the same way, or that no one with a disability could play Sekiro as is.

However, for every experience like the one you posted, there are countless like this.



Please read Steve's full thread. I hope it helps you understand some of the experiences of gamers with disabilities.

Also could you please spoiler tag your Sekiro video? I hadn't got to that boss yet and I'm sure others would appreciate not having it spoiled. I provided an example of how to spoiler tag it correctly in my quote of your post.
 

Luminish

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The problem is that I dont have the luxury to spend so much time on video games. I love how Bloodborne looks and plays but I cant justify putting so many hours into it to master it. I'm getting tired everyday and I just wanna relax and play video games. A video game attracts me visually and gameplay wise but it's putting a barrier because I cant git gud, give me a break, at the end of the day it's a video game not a school exam.
Yeah I'm with you. I think games generally are made better by difficulty options, maybe even to the point that they should be considered standard for big budget action games that are certain to draw both the types of gamers that just want chill with the environment and story, and some that just want to overcome challenges through game mechanics.

I'm mostly just trying to suss out the argument that differences in pure ability requires additional attention toward making the game easier. I feel there's a lot of theoretical assertions about reaction times making games like Seikro unreasonably difficult without any concrete real life examples of people who need more help from the game design that can't be handled by changing controller hardware.

I think the distinction is important in order to know exactly what we should be asking for when asking for an easy mode.
 

Dary

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Oct 27, 2017
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As a follow-up question: are there any games you've found that give you an option to tweak the reaction windows? It feels like it would be a broadly helpful thing but doesn't seem to be particularly common, or at least I haven't heard of any.
None that I can think of off the top of my head. The closest you usually get are easier difficulties where the enemies are less aggressive, so there isn't as much of a focus on reaction mechanics.
 

FF Seraphim

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A game that's designed to be difficult with no way to tone it down is just as valid as one that decides to have multiple modes. It's not like there's a scarcity of modern games that are easy to play through so I don't understand the huge outrage that From faces for sticking to their vision.

Its because they make great games. If their games were somewhat mediocre I bet there wouldn't be this type of reaction. For example I do not believe the Armored Core series had a difficulty setting at least ACV didn't. That series surely wasn't made for a mass audience. Yet, not many if any complained about how hard they were. Nine Breaker killed me so many times.
 

Deleted member 8001

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It's been with the problem of some sort of mandate that a developer must implement one.
So I can get through these games just fine I don't even think they are that hard personally for my own skill level.

However there's a lot of people who find the barrier of entry too difficult or have disabilities that would be able to enjoy this game more if the option of a casual mode existed. Adding this mode is not even that hard if it's just really basic like the golden leaf in Mario games or something similar with being stat related.

So if it's not too difficult really I feel like it's okay for these people to say "I want this and they should add it". It's a valid thing to say even if I personally don't need it.

The dev can do whichever but people are allowed to criticize their decision and in this case it feels pretty sound to do so to me anyway.
 

marrec

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The point being, why does developer intent even matter at all or is relevant in any way, and why does it pop up in these discussions about difficulty/accessibility but even people such as myself, who personally absolutely love Kid Icarus: Uprising, don't go all art and developer intent to defend the controls and understand the complaints? Why does instead one of the few places it pops up are these difficulty/accessibility discussions and not otherwise to defend stuff like that because "well, it's what they intended though, so whatever"?

I just don't get the relevance and how that should factor in either way when it's ignored in those other discussions, so that it suddenly pops up in these discussions definitely sticks out to me. Intent doesn't magicly make something good (or bad) or beyond criticism or anything like that, and if in admits that and goes well yeah of course, then what's the point other than just to try and shut down discussions or something and in a way that isn't typically seen as valid in those other discussions such as KI:U's controls no matter how much developer intent went into it?

I just don't get why I should actually suddenly consider that relevant to this discussion in a way it rarely is for any of those others and why it matters at all either way.

Developer intent matters because they're making the game?

Sometimes intent does not match execution, as with your Mass Effect 3 example, but that is not the same as intent not matching EVERY PLAYER EXPECTATION.

From Software games are deliberately difficult in order to evoke specific feelings from the player. That is what was decided and that is why it matters.
 

Deleted member 888

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When you make points such as this:



I really do feel like you are missing the point and at the same time being extremely presumptuous.

Just to give you a taste of why having difficulty options are a good thing and why they won't harm your experience or 'community':



Read my post above and I can counter with another poster said it's not always about completing a game, but making it accessible.

I'd argue that is both a good point and an incredibly valid point for From Software. They fine-tune their games on a linear difficulty curve. They start easier than they end. Even although your character gets more powerful and you yourself learn more as you play, like learning to ride a bike, some of the later boss battles tend to be pretty mechanic heavy. As I said earlier in this topic, nearly everyone remembers Ornstein and Smough as a bottleneck, because the fight introduced two bosses at once.

Which may mean not everyone does complete the game. You could say that is a fatal flaw, but I will say, have you seen completion rates of any game these days? Whether it's difficulty or open world boredom, the vast majority of devs see sizeable numbers of people not complete their games. Heck, even Uncharted is probably a 50~60% completion. Maybe a bit higher.

And while I'm sure devs will want to explore why and see what they can do about it, as above simply having a difficulty slider right down to "basically god mode" does not necessarily imply people will have fun/complete your game anyway.
 

Amauri14

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Oct 27, 2017
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"This game isn't what I want it to be" =/= "This game is bad"

People need to learn that if a creator decides they don't want to make a game catered to them that is a-ok. Go play something else.

Yeah, some games are not made for everyone, and although it doesn't sound nice, he should just accept that to FromSoftware difficulty is part of their design. So I honestly find it kind of unfair that every time they release a game there is a group that wants them to dedicate their resources into implementing another difficulty, which of course would mean that they will have to rebalance the whole game.
 

PaulloDEC

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Saying a game isn't for someone isn't characterizing them as a weirdo. That graphic in this context feels pretty disingenuous when then one thing you dislike the most is one of the biggest things From's latest games are known for. That's like saying I love everything about a racing sim but hate the way the game focuses on realistic physics. It's just the one thing I dislike you know?

A better comparison would be loving everything about a racing sim including the realistic physics, but sometimes finding them a touch too unforgiving.
 

Fanta

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May 27, 2018
508
And the user experience within the confines of what Souls games are aiming to be, is arguably the best in the industry. Why do you think From Software changed the industry? Why did others want to be "Souls like"? Why is Activision publishing a game without MTs, season pass and loot boxes?

Because From managed to take difficulty and make it accessible. Make it seem fair. They are not the only ones who have ever done this, or the first, but they went viral, Demons Souls while hard had many people play it and complete it. Then Dark Souls came along, after Sony completely misjudged Demons Souls doing well outside of Japan. So much so it left them scrambling to fund Bloodborne years later.

The market wanted something like this and a large part of that was because the user experience complimented all the marketing speak about being "the hardest game ever".

Souls games aren't though, they're basically puzzle games. Muscle memory. Learning boss patterns. There is a challenge but even for those like me who aren't the best, it tends to be overcome by repetition.

Insufferably hard games are probably more like some COD game on hardcore with 1,000 grenades being spammed at you and insta death from snipers 20km away. From Software games don't tend to be cheap and that is what makes the user experience flow well with the challenge.

The disservice many are doing in this topic by bringing up game design then not even suggesting they know why From Software is as popular as they are in their small slice of the market is head-scratching.

I'm actually agree with your post here, I was more talking about the industry in general in regards to inclusive design than specifically Fromsoft.

UX design will be an iterative process that will work here and fail there but that's part of the process - looking at where it's lacking and improving it
 

DerpHause

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Oct 27, 2017
2,379
But if they do some kind of Souls collection like a decade or so later, officially would that ruin the "artistic integrity" of the game?

Not following the logic here. Re-releasing the game in itself is just providing the game(s) as is. Are you suggesting some fundamental change with the re-release?



Not as baffling as thinking that no element of developer vision can exist at all, which is the only implication I can pull from that dismissal. I mean, I get that some of you can't view games as anything but corporate mass market products with the singular goal of peak profit as a sole motivation. But maybe, just maybe, occasionally, when someone says they did something for a reason related to their vision for the game they actually did it for a reason related to their vision for the game.
 

Yerffej

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When you make points such as this:



I really do feel like you are missing the point and at the same time being extremely presumptuous.

Just to give you a taste of why having difficulty options are a good thing and why they won't harm your experience or 'community':


And seeing quotes like that only reinforces my thinking towards talk about developer intent. It feels absurdly exclusionary to cut out people like this, as badly as they want to experience what's on offer.
 

Deleted member 2550

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So I can get through these games just fine I don't even think they are that hard personally for my own skill level.
That's fine, I'm not questioning anyone's level of skill in here. I'm pretty shit at video games in general.

However there's a lot of people who find the barrier of entry too difficult
This is one case in which I think suggesting another game is an okay response. There's also an opportunity for discussion here with other players on things they might be missing that'll make the game easier to approach.

or have disabilities that would be able to enjoy this game more if the option of a casual mode existed.
This is a different discussion from the above IMO and a more difficult one to have. Do we suddenly condemn developers for not including difficulty options in their games? It's one thing to criticize, but another to suggest that the developer is in the wrong for not doing so. Then there's the discussion of what options developers (outside of different difficulties) and hardware manufacturers can do to address various disabilities. Just to give an example of this, FFXIV has an option to add visual queues to the sides of the screen that reflect audio queues within the game. Also something like accounting for colorblindness.

Adding this mode is not even that hard if it's just really basic like the golden leaf in Mario games or something similar with being stat related.
I can't really speak to the difficulty of implementing something. Scaling sounds simple, yeah. And if that's all people want, yes I guess that would be "easy." Whether or not that's a quality implementation of a game difficulty is another thing I guess.

So if it's not too difficult really I feel like it's okay for these people to say "I want this and they should add it". It's a valid thing to say even if I personally don't need it.

The dev can do whichever but people are allowed to criticize their decision and in this case it feels pretty sound to do so to me anyway.
Agreed. *Edit* To the bolded: I think it's fine to request it. I still don't think the developer is in the wrong for not having it in the game.
 

marrec

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6,775


No they don't.

I'm seeing a lot of really bad takes about this on Twitter right now.

In fact, it doesn't ACTUALLY matter if the intent does not make it to final release, because if the dev doesn't want to add a difficulty option they are not obliged to do so by any means.

If they want to tweak difficulty at some point, that is entirely their prerogative.
 

Glass Arrows

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Jan 10, 2019
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he point being, why does developer intent even matter at all or is relevant in any way, and why does it pop up in these discussions about difficulty/accessibility but even people such as myself, who personally absolutely love Kid Icarus: Uprising, don't go all art and developer intent to defend the controls and understand the complaints? Why does instead one of the few places it pops up are these difficulty/accessibility discussions and not otherwise to defend stuff like that because "well, it's what they intended though, so whatever"?

I just don't get the relevance and how that should factor in either way when it's ignored in those other discussions, so that it suddenly pops up in these discussions definitely sticks out to me. Intent doesn't magicly make something good (or bad) or beyond criticism or anything like that, and if in admits that and goes well yeah of course, then what's the point other than just to try and shut down discussions or something and in a way that isn't typically seen as valid in those other discussions such as KI:U's controls no matter how much developer intent went into it?

I just don't get why I should actually suddenly consider that relevant to this discussion in a way it rarely is for any of those others and why it matters at all either way.

To play devil's advocate for a minute, I think the reason people bring up "developers' vision/intent" is because sometimes what a person wants out a piece of entertainment does legitimately go against the kind of thing that a work is trying to accomplish.

For example, let's say I read 1984 and I made a complaint that the ending of the book was too bleak and nihilistic. Does that mean there is something actually wrong with the ending? In my opinion, not really. The story was built to have that ending and the story works better for it. In that case obviously it's a perfectly valid feeling but it's more of a question of personal preference than craft. Of course someone having a vision for something does not mean it is free from criticism, but it is also true that not every criticism is necessarily helpful or coherent with every single artistic goal.

I think what they are trying to say is "there is nothing wrong with this work presenting something that prevents certain people from enjoying it. it's fine if they don't like it, but it doesn't need to accomodate their personal taste", because they don't see the difficulty as being meaningfully different from any other personal preference, since they think anyone could beat a Souls game if they put their mind to it, it's just a question of what is fun for them. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that (in the case of someone with a disability especially I would say it's wrong because the person is PHYSICALLY incapable of meaningfully interacting with it), but that is more or less the gist of the argument.
 

Kamek

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Pretty sure they saw the ERA thread and just wrote an article on it. Wouldn't be the first time Kotaku did this.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

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Oct 25, 2017
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Bloodborne 2 will have an easy mode, but it will require you to read the wiki page to understand how to unlock it.
 

Deleted member 32374

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No one said that all gamers with disabilities experienced games the same way, or that no one with a disability could play Sekiro as is.

However, for every experience like the one you posted, there are countless like this.



Please read Steve's full thread. I hope it helps you understand some of the experiences of gamers with disabilities.

Also could you please spoiler tag your Sekiro video? I hadn't got to that boss yet and I'm sure others would appreciate not having it spoiled. I provided an example of how to spoiler tag it correctly in my quote of your post.


Wow. That hits some feels right there. Thats happened to me (not same issue but same result and reaction). The statement about playing video games when life gets tough is real, its how I dealt with the onset of my issues until improved enough to reopen my world a bit.
 

OneBadMutha

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Nov 2, 2017
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The part people miss...this is From Software's brand. Taking that away may hurt their brand and ultimately their sales big picture. I'd argue their games aren't special if easy. Just ok...and they would suddenly be short.

Having communities of gamers coming to together to help each other climb this hill is part of the From Software experience...like it or not. Think of it like a team fitness event...where the more fit people are helping pull their teammates up the hill.

Where From Software could potentially compromise some day is add an easy mode sometime post launch. Let all us fanatics suffer through the game together and for some of us to take weeks to figure it out. Then come out with an easy mode later. I don't think sales will improve drastically though because the forced challenge is a huge portion of the fun.
 

Deleted member 3183

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Seeing the argument that an easy mode would betray the purpose of the Soulsborne games (in that you are meant to be challenged, fail, and persevere, etc...) reminds me a lot of the game Celeste. The game where you will probably die literally thousands of times on your way to the ending. The idea of trying, failing, and eventually overcoming is at the core of that game too.

Yet... the devs also included a variety of options to make the game easier for those who chose to take advantage of it. I don't recall anyone who enjoyed that game getting up in arms about the options. Most of us (I assume) didn't use the options to make it easier; and those who wanted to, did. Everyone won!
 

Halabane

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Nov 10, 2017
243
Asking for an easy mode in Sekiro is like asking for a brutal difficulty mode in Kirby's Epic Yarn

It's okay to not be in the target demographic for a game

This is a decent argument. Except for maybe one thing. One player can do both while one can only do one of them. The thing that gets lost in here is there are gamers who have disabilities or are older and can't 'get good'. There are more of them they you think and its growing. Gaming is one sport that we usually welcome everyone and for some its their only thing. Yeah I guess you can always say there are other games but I feel bad leaving people out. I would never take away the harder mode or challenge for some. Even some kind of 'thing' that gives the bragging rights that seem to be so important to them. Lots of people play video games because they couldn't play football or basketball or whatever and they were left out. This world was something they could compete in, which is great. Why are we trying to do the same thing here with a single player game? In this case it could possibly be technically and/or too costly which is fair reason not to add it in. I would not want to see something like this not come to market because they could afford to put in an 'easy' mode.

Just got back from PAX East and always happy about how everyone was welcomed. Come back to this argument and it seems like when any one gets the chance to preclude someone they will. Maybe that's just life. Life ain't fair. Just seems if you can make it better for more people, why not?

One also wonders how many people actually complete the game based on trophy data (less than 20%)...funny to see how few even get to the first bonfire before quitting (10%).
 

marrec

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Seeing the argument that an easy mode would betray the purpose of the Soulsborne games (in that you are meant to be challenged, fail, and persevere, etc...) reminds me a lot of the game Celeste. The game where you will probably die literally thousands of times on your way to the ending. The idea of trying, failing, and eventually overcoming is at the core of that game too.

Yet... the devs also included a variety of options to make the game easier for those who chose to take advantage of it. I don't recall anyone who enjoyed that game getting up in arms about the options. Most of us (I assume) didn't use the options to make it easier; and those who wanted to, did. Everyone won!

You know Celeste and Sekrio are made by different developers right?

So, what is good and acceptable for the developers of Celeste may not be good and acceptable for the developers on Sekiro?

It's AWESOME that Celeste was able to be enjoyed by so many people, but that does not make it so that all devs must do the same in order to meet some arbitrary standard of moral wellness.
 

Deleted member 1120

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Seeing the argument that an easy mode would betray the purpose of the Soulsborne games (in that you are meant to be challenged, fail, and persevere, etc...) reminds me a lot of the game Celeste. The game where you will probably die literally thousands of times on your way to the ending. The idea of trying, failing, and eventually overcoming is at the core of that game too.

Yet... the devs also included a variety of options to make the game easier for those who chose to take advantage of it. I don't recall anyone who enjoyed that game getting up in arms about the options. Most of us (I assume) didn't use the options to make it easier; and those who wanted to, did. Everyone won!
Well From Software didn't make Celeste.
 

Deleted member 888

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I'm actually agree with your post here, I was more talking about the industry in general in regards to inclusive design than specifically Fromsoft.

UX design will be an iterative process that will work here and fail there but that's part of the process - looking at where it's lacking and improving it

Which is why for 98% of games no one bats an eyelid. No one is protesting Uncharted or God of War having "even easier than easy" modes.

Persona 5, many people on this forums GOTY, literally has a god mode. Not just an easy mode, a straight up god mode. You cannot die. I've played it! (Shame about the rest of Persona 5, but I won't rustle the fans feathers in here).

From Software have tried to do what others have done with a prompt at the start of the game nerfing everything if not making it god mode, with more old-school tuning and giving the player a user experience which has fairness at its core.

That is a way to approach difficulty, irrespective of Twitter being a goldmine right now of arguing, trolling and hot takes. Games can be made on a linear difficulty curve, like many puzzle games are, but taking that and applying it to another genre. A cross-genre pollination.

As I said, From Software are not the first to do this, nor even the first to strike a great balance between difficulty and fairness, but they came along at the right time to reinvent the third person action adventure RPG with a mix of challenge, fairness and obviously their brand of hands-off storytelling.

Everything ties up to make the "From Software experience" and people know what they are getting buying their games. While From Software made games before Demons Souls, it was indeed Demons Souls that made them as popular as they are now. Which is a bit ironic when people suggest they aren't selling millions more because of... what made them popular in the first place?

There are other action adventure third-person games out there? In fact, Sony is just about to release one from Sucker Punch which will undoubtedly have difficulty sliders like God of War has them. Ghost of Tsushima is probably going to be like a ND story game though. That's just not the niche FS carved for themselves to distinguish themselves from everyone else in the industry.

It's okay for some game experiences to be different from the rest and everyone in here talking about game design has to do FS some respect in understanding why they stood out. They aren't just COD on Hardcore with grenade spam. Their difficulty isn't as simple as +100000% health like The Division 2 makes things more difficult. It's a fundamental approach of fairness and carefully balancing the world while trusting the player.
 

DerpHause

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Oct 27, 2017
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Seeing the argument that an easy mode would betray the purpose of the Soulsborne games (in that you are meant to be challenged, fail, and persevere, etc...) reminds me a lot of the game Celeste. The game where you will probably die literally thousands of times on your way to the ending. The idea of trying, failing, and eventually overcoming is at the core of that game too.

Yet... the devs also included a variety of options to make the game easier for those who chose to take advantage of it. I don't recall anyone who enjoyed that game getting up in arms about the options. Most of us (I assume) didn't use the options to make it easier; and those who wanted to, did. Everyone won!

The difference is the developers of Celeste chosing to include that feature and everyone being perfectly fine with the developer decision.

Contrast that with soulsborne and a slew of people being seemingly incapable of making the same concession for a design decision 6 games old now.
 

marrec

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Again, I don't see people gnashing their teeth at the idea of Johan Sebastian Joust not being available for everyone to play.
 

Deleted member 3183

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You know Celeste and Sekrio are made by different developers right?

So, what is good and acceptable for the developers of Celeste may not be good and acceptable for the developers on Sekiro?

The difference is the developers of Celeste chosing to include that feature and everyone being perfectly fine with the developer decision.

Contrast that with soulsborne and a slew of people being seemingly incapable of making the same concession for a design decision 6 games old now.

Hey, they're developers - we're all free to criticize their decisions. Just because the games are as they are, doesn't mean they're perfect and above all criticism.
 

Datajoy

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Angola / Zaire border region.
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There is no difference between these two texts, unless you are a gatekeeping elitist snob.