Kotaku's Jason Schreier: Inside Rockstar Games' Culture Of Crunch

Deleted member 39329 · Oct 25, 2018

NarohDethan said:
https://kotaku.com/inside-rockstar-games-culture-of-crunch-1829936466

Here's the story Jason has been working on the last weeks.

Here's a sample:

Aside from the horrifying culture of Rockstar, what disappoints me most is the mainstream media's general lack of response in covering Kotaku's report. Not all gamers read Kotaku, so not everyone knows what happened at that studio. Only core people who closely follow games know. Mainstream outlet games "journalists" didn't care about what was happening at that studio because they saw what kind of game RDR2 is. I don't care how good that game is. It doesn't excuse or justify the awful treatment of their employees. No game is worth the sacrifice of another person's well-being.

There is only like two or three gaming stories throughout each year when gaming media has the chance to perform actual journalism. It is seldom they have a chance to cover news for the public good, you know, what journalism actually is. They all had their chance served to them on a fucking silver platter and they whiffed as if they were blindfolded, or more accurately, ignorant.

The fact that outlets like IGN, GameSpot, Eurogamer, GameInformer and MANY others didn't cover this essential story just shows how little they actually care. It shows their true colors and that they are not to be taken seriously as real journalists. They are more simply just fanboys who like to toss numbers and labels on games, and they don't care about the people who make them. I have lost all respect for every outlet that chose not to cover this story. Someone should start a thread about that...

Seppala · Oct 25, 2018

RuleNumber6 said:
The fact that outlets like IGN, GameSpot, Eurogamer, GameInformer and MANY others didn't cover this essential story just shows how little they actually care.

Yup. Even when the original Vulture article came out it was quite telling what the different outlets took away from it. The 100 hour week quote should've been something that everyone should've commented on but hey, that new Red Dead game is 60 hours!!!1!!

I'm most disappointed in IGN, the biggest entertainment website in the world should do that kind of journalism that Schreier is doing.

SageShinigami · Oct 25, 2018

zenspider said:
I get it, and I still think it's a cop-out.

Is there proof that devs rely on bonuses to make ends meet? If that's really the case, how is that not another labor issue feeding right back into the crunch culture?

I guess I just want to hear people say: I care enough to complain on social media platforms that are free, convenient, and earn me prestige, but not enough to deprive myself of an enjoyable experience - because that is ok, and I suspect a bit more honest.

It is another labor issue that feeds right back into crunch culture. It's one that's well documented too. If games don't get a certain metacritic rating, or if they don't sell a certain number of copies, developers are deprived of bonuses that they're often very much looking forward to. There's mention of this directly in Jason's article, where some developers talk about how they aren't paid overtime but are hoping the game does well so they can receive bonuses that make up for it. In fact, near the end of the article there's a specific line that said even the harshest of Rockstar's critics didn't believe you shouldn't buy the game.

What you're doing is literally virtue signalling. You're ignoring how the people actually dealing with the problem would prefer you to handle it. Feel free not to buy the game if it bothers you that much. But don't disrespect the people who've put in thousands of hours of hard work by saying anyone who buys the game doesn't care about the problem.

Era of not Yakuza · Oct 25, 2018

bliggup said:
i don't want a thread made. and no, they used my username on here which is unified with all of my social media and had literally everything on me down to the make and model of my car. i cannot stress enough how serious i am about this.

Like, literally, we need to know more about this, WTF

Lowrys · Oct 25, 2018

bliggup said:
which thread is it appropriate enough for me to talk about how rockstar sent an employee from Nashville to my doorstep for leaking the gameplay footage from another player?

What the fuck

Lausebub · Oct 25, 2018

zenspider said:
I mean, I don't feel like the burden is on me to explain why absolving yourself from supporting a company who's labor practices you are against enough to speak out on is a cop-out.

What pressure? Tweets and hashtags?

Yes tweets and hastags actually help. The crunch at rockstar has been a lot worse and it has goten a lot better and that is not because people were beycotting gta5. Same with EA. I am just a bit disapointed, that most reviews didn't talk about the working conditions.

But if games like AC and Battlefield can be developed mostly without crunch Rockstar can do that to and I think the will at some point. If you want to boycott the game, sure do that, but Rockstar isn't even going to notice. What the will notice is people talked bad about them.

Also the people who crunched, want you to play their game an get a higher Bonus ,if it sells well.

hyuckwut · Oct 25, 2018

i'm really not trying to derail this thread. there's like 7 different rockstar threads at the moment. originally i was sincere in asking which thread is it appropriate to talk about this subject and i chose this one because it specifically deals in shady ass practices by rockstar. i'm not trying to cause any problems here.

Spinluck · Oct 25, 2018

bliggup said:
i'm really not trying to derail this thread. there's like 7 different rockstar threads at the moment. originally i was sincere in asking which thread is it appropriate to talk about this subject and i chose this one because it specifically deals in shady ass practices by rockstar. i'm not trying to cause any problems here.

you're not doing anything wrong...

that poster going off for some reason seems to care more about a company that will never care about him than whatever you had to say.

Lowrys · Oct 25, 2018

bliggup said:
i'm really not trying to derail this thread. there's like 7 different rockstar threads at the moment. originally i was sincere in asking which thread is it appropriate to talk about this subject and i chose this one because it specifically deals in shady ass practices by rockstar. i'm not trying to cause any problems here.

You should tell jschreier about this fuckery. Seriously.

hyuckwut · Oct 25, 2018

i did, but i'm not sure if what i have is enough to prove that someone actually came here. in a state of panic, you don't exactly remember to flip on your phone camera. i've got one thing that could possibly prove this went down, that's why i'm not about to cause a ruckus with a separate thread. im not sure it's enough.

Lowrys · Oct 25, 2018

bliggup said:
i did, but i'm not sure if what i have is enough to prove that someone actually came here. in a state of panic, you don't exactly remember to flip on your phone camera. i've got one thing that could possibly prove this went down, that's why i'm not about to cause a ruckus with a separate thread. im not sure it's enough.

Your word is enough if you're telling the truth. This isn't a court. What reason would you have to lie? Companies that pull this shit deserve to be called out on it.

zenspider · Oct 25, 2018

SageShinigami said:
It is another labor issue that feeds right back into crunch culture. It's one that's well documented too. If games don't get a certain metacritic rating, or if they don't sell a certain number of copies, developers are deprived of bonuses that they're often very much looking forward to. There's mention of this directly in Jason's article, where some developers talk about how they aren't paid overtime but are hoping the game does well so they can receive bonuses that make up for it. In fact, near the end of the article there's a specific line that said even the harshest of Rockstar's critics didn't believe you shouldn't buy the game.

What you're doing is literally virtue signalling. You're ignoring how the people actually dealing with the problem would prefer you to handle it. Feel free not to buy the game if it bothers you that much. But don't disrespect the people who've put in thousands of hours of hard work by saying anyone who buys the game doesn't care about the problem.

I understand what you're saying and I read the article too. If we really believe those bonuses actually "make up for it", then I think this whole thing is being framed in a disingenious way. But it doesn't fix it, and you agree it reinforces it. I doesn't make it rifht because that's what they want. It's still a cop-out.

I guess I'm virtue signalling - that's the currency of these kind of discussions, and I'm not put off or embarrassed by that term. I'm not buying the game because I don't care about the game, but I am running the thought experiment if I did care - if it was a game I was looking forward to for years - and how I'd deal with it. Honestly I'm not sure... thus, "ERA how is this not a cop-out"?

And I didn't say anyone who buys it doesn't care about the problem, I said (hypothetically) they don't care about it enough to deprive themselves of enjoyment, which I think is pretty fair to say. I say it about myself almost every day and I feel ashamed, but not disrespected. Unfortunately I don't have Jason Schreier and Rockstar employees to let me off the hook.

Kelsdesu · Oct 25, 2018

12 hours?They get O.T?

hyuckwut · Oct 25, 2018

Lowrys said:
What reason would you have to lie?

exactly. i don't have anything to gain, here, at all. it already cost me friends and a community by leaking what i leaked out, but i'm not trying to stand by and allow house calls by huge companies. i'm good on that.

Lowrys · Oct 25, 2018

bliggup said:
exactly. i don't have anything to gain, here, at all. it already cost me friends and a community by leaking what i leaked out, but i'm not trying to stand by and allow house calls by huge companies. i'm good on that.

There you go. I hope you tell your story and it gets the coverage it deserves.

ZeoVGM · Oct 25, 2018

bliggup said:
exactly. i don't have anything to gain, here, at all. it already cost me friends and a community by leaking what i leaked out, but i'm not trying to stand by and allow house calls by huge companies. i'm good on that.

I dunno, man. You might be doing it for the fame and fortune that awaits you.

SageShinigami · Oct 25, 2018

zenspider said:
I understand what you're saying and I read the article too. If we really believe those bonuses actually "make up for it", then I think this whole thing is being framed in a disingenious way. But it doesn't fix it, and you agree it reinforces it. I doesn't make it rifht because that's what they want. It's still a cop-out.

I guess I'm virtue signalling - that's the currency of these kind of discussions, and I'm not put off or embarrassed by that term. I'm not buying the game because I don't care about the game, but I am running the thought experiment if I did care - if it was a game I was looking forward to for years - and how I'd deal with it. Honestly I'm not sure... thus, "ERA how is this not a cop-out"?

And I didn't say anyone who buys it doesn't care about the problem, I said (hypothetically) they don't care about it enough to deprive themselves of enjoyment, which I think is pretty fair to say. I say it about myself almost every day and I feel ashamed, but not disrespected. Unfortunately I don't have Jason Schrier and Rockstar employees to let me off the hook.

Saying "I don't care what they want" is basically saying you don't really care about the issue. They are telling you "I worked hard on this thing, please don't avoid it because I went through so much to make it. Enjoy it, then start a discussion on what I went through in the hopes that things will get better." You are saying "but then I'm not suffering enough to prove I care", but that's really just making things about you. Things improved the last time this was talked about (which I'm fairly certain was also in the article), so not letting up in talking about it will hopefully improve things again.

kiguel182 · Oct 25, 2018

Yasuke said:
.

We can be excited for and support things while pushing for them to be better to the people behind them.

If you are going to not buy a game because of crunch issues you might as well stop playing video games. Or use software.

We should always push for better work conditions but acting like Rockstar is doing something that doesn't happen everyday in sofreste development is foolish. Most of that stuff is just how software is made.

kiguel182 · Oct 25, 2018

The credits thing is something that really shouldn't be allowed.

I don't know how you can make a rule that forbids it but yeah, that's really gross.

Scrooge McDuck · Oct 25, 2018

kiguel182 said:
If you are going to not buy a game because of crunch issues you might as well stop playing video games. Or use software.

We should always push for better work conditions but acting like Rockstar is doing something that doesn't happen everyday in sofreste development is foolish. Most of that stuff is just how software is made.

Describing it as mere "crunch issues" understates the breadth and severity of things Rockstar actually did to their employees here.

hyuckwut · Oct 25, 2018

ZeoVGM said:
I dunno, man. You might be doing it for the fame and fortune that awaits you.

cant tell if serious. i sure hope not.

Deleted member 39329 · Oct 25, 2018

Lowrys said:
What the fuck

what he said

zenspider · Oct 25, 2018

SageShinigami said:
Saying "I don't care what they want" is basically saying you don't really care about the issue. They are telling you "I worked hard on this thing, please don't avoid it because I went through so much to make it. Enjoy it, then start a discussion on what I went through in the hopes that things will get better." You are saying "but then I'm not suffering enough to prove I care", but that's really just making things about you. Things improved the last time this was talked about (which I'm fairly certain was also in the article), so not letting up in talking about it will hopefully improve things again.

No, saying I don't care what they want is not "basically" saying I don't care about the issue. I don't agree that cutting a bonus check solves the problem.

Would you buy a game you didn't want to support people who suffer this kind of crunch because they told you it would make it ok? Of course you wouldn't. Again, you can say it's a noble gesture as many ways as you want, but I'm not convinced that it is not a cop-out. You get something you want and you don't have to feel bad about it.

Also I'm not saying: "but then I'm not suffering enough to prove I care" - why do you keep changing my words around to make your point?

I'm taking about a hypothetical personal accounting (which for is, more often than not, something people make about themselves). I know I don't care enough about problems I have with things I participate in to deprive myself of my enjoyment of them.

If everyone can have their cake and eat it too, that's great. Maybe I'm stuck in a mentality where you have to put your money where your mouth is, and you really don't. Maybe that's a good thing and I'm being to suspicous. I hope it works out, but I remain unconvinced.

ZeoVGM · Oct 25, 2018

bliggup said:
cant tell if serious. i sure hope not.

You might wanna look at my previous posts. :P

a Question · Oct 25, 2018

I have not read whole article but I'm interested is there any takes from executives or people from management teams? Obviously people who make business decisions and crunches are much less transparent, more over this issue affect mostly developers who are more important but I just want to hear other side as well.

Mostly I hear theme "business people are bad" or "Corporations are pushing developers without any concerns over them", but at the same time there is a reason why you hire management team to do the work and even when you hire "right" M team its still an issue they going to face.

Apparently dev teams at EA and Ubisoft do not experience crunches , 2 companies who have fair share of controversies and hate have better management then 2K and CD Project red.

Obviously EA does have bad management cases, nobody forgot Volition closure. However I look at Battlefield V updates road map where they delayed Firestorm (their big Battle Royal mode) to the march of 2019, at first I thought "Dice can not even finish own game?" but now I can imagine Dice coming to Management saying they wont be able to put BR till march and Management told them to finish game as they reasonably can and release BR in march instead putting them on crunch.

Of course dev teams from EA and Ubisoft do not say its all heaven in there either and can be improved but it definitely not as bad as Rockstar.

I really wanna hear thoughts on crunches from executives. Like ask at least heads of Iron galaxy Dave Lang and Adam Boyes.

I do believe Developers need own union though.

hyuckwut · Oct 25, 2018

ZeoVGM said:
You might wanna look at my previous posts. :P

oh, duh haha sorry man

Griffith · Oct 25, 2018

Just a reminder: you can enjoy Red Dead Redemption 2 while at the same time acknowledging that the obligations imposed upon developers to finish it were, at best, unscrupulous or at worse borderline, or, should-be-illegal.

You don't have to defend Rockstar just because you like their products. You don't have to hate Rockstar's games because you hate the way they treat developers.

You can appreciate Rockstar's games and hate the way they treat their developers. They are not mutually exclusive.

We are not against you or the games you love and we don't want to keep you from appreciating whichever games we do. It is in everyone's best interest that developers are not burned out and leave the gaming industry. We want our developers to remain happy, passionate and to remain in the industry for many many years. Some of our best regarded games come from people that have been in the industry for decades. Defending these terrible work practices is to indirectly harm the people that dedicate themselves to make the games you love.

Please think about that for a moment before you post your "it's not as bad as it seems" or some other defensive statement.

ZeoVGM · Oct 25, 2018

bliggup said:
oh, duh haha sorry man

Haha, no worries.

Sheepinator · Oct 25, 2018

Griffith said:
Just a reminder: you can enjoy Red Dead Redemption 2 while at the same time acknowledging that the obligations imposed upon developers to finish it were, at best, unscrupulous or at worse borderline, or, should-be-illegal.

You don't have to defend Rockstar just because you like their products. You don't have to hate Rockstar's games because you hate the way they treat developers.

You can appreciate Rockstar's games and hate the way they treat their developers. They are not mutually exclusive.

We are not against you or the games you love and we don't want to keep you from appreciating whichever games we do. It is in everyone's best interest that developers are not burned out and leave the gaming industry. We want our developers to remain happy, passionate and to remain in the industry for many many years. Some of our best regarded games come from people that have been in the industry for decades. Defending these terrible work practices is to indirectly harm the people that dedicate themselves to make the games you love.

Please think about that for a moment before you post your "it's not as bad as it seems" or some other defensive statement.

How do you explain Rockstar seemingly not having retention issues? How do you explain the lack of mass exodus from their studios? How do you explain things like Respawn forming from a big chunk of Infinity Ward people and signing with another publisher, not happening here? How do you explain that we almost never hear other developers proudly saying they've hired such and such from Rockstar to work on their games? Could it be, that maybe "it's not as bad as it seems"?

kiguel182 · Oct 26, 2018

Scrooge McDuck said:
Describing it as mere "crunch issues" understates the breadth and severity of things Rockstar actually did to their employees here.

I disagree.

The article paints a company with a clear overtime culture yes but it's a problem that extends beyond Rockstar. Nothing that was said (besides the credits things) made me go "this is so much worst than other places".

Lot of the anedoctes apply to big companies and others apply to companies that are based in passion projects.

Not every job is a 9 to 5 one. A lot of those stories sound like bad management while others sound like a company that is making a product they feel really strongly about and where it's expected everyone feels the same (which is wrong, mind you, but fairly normal).

I hope things improve but acting like Rockstar is doing so much worse than other companies (inside and outside the industry) seems foolish to me. There needs to be the perspective that this is how work culture works in a lot places and framing the conversation as "Rockstar issues" seems very limiting to me.

Scrooge McDuck · Oct 26, 2018

kiguel182 said:
I hope things improve but acting like Rockstar is doing so much worse than other companies (inside and outside the industry) seems foolish to me. There needs to be the perspective that this is how work culture works in a lot places and framing the conversation as "Rockstar issues" seems very limiting to me.

I'm don't think that anybody is under the illusion that Rockstar is the only company with this problem. Nevertheless, people can only discuss and react to concrete cases. So if you have specific examples from other developers, maybe you could also put it into discussion. Otherwise, nobody can do anything with a vague notion of "every company does this", and blindly pursuing that line of thinking can potentially distract from the problem already right in front of us.

antonz · Oct 26, 2018

Eurogamer has posted an article now and it is pretty hard hitting.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-10-25-the-human-cost-of-red-dead-redemption-2

Green Yoshi · Oct 26, 2018

bliggup said:
which thread is it appropriate enough for me to talk about how rockstar sent an employee from Nashville to my doorstep for leaking the gameplay footage from another player?

Did you ask him how many hours he worked last week? Did you offer this poor soul some food?

Lowrys · Oct 26, 2018

antonz said:
Eurogamer has posted an article now and it is pretty hard hitting.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2018-10-25-the-human-cost-of-red-dead-redemption-2

Deserves a new thread.

kiguel182 · Oct 26, 2018

Scrooge McDuck said:
I'm don't think that anybody is under the illusion that Rockstar is the only company with this problem. Nevertheless, people can only discuss and react to concrete cases. So if you have specific examples from other developers, maybe you could also put it into discussion. Otherwise, nobody can do anything with a vague notion of "every company does this", and blindly pursuing that line of thinking can potentially distract from the problem already right in front of us.

You are right. I don't mean to distract from anything but I am seeing some people describe Rockstar as this terrible place when, in context, is not that different from the norm. Again, it should be discussed and talked about obviously but also it shouldn't be framed as this out of the norm thing.

Also, Jason's book is pretty much full of these stories. And, outside the game industry, it's easy to find an overwork culture that permeates companies in general. Rockstar is not that out of the norm.

Griffith · Oct 26, 2018

Sheepinator said:
How do you explain Rockstar seemingly not having retention issues? How do you explain the lack of mass exodus from their studios? How do you explain things like Respawn forming from a big chunk of Infinity Ward people and signing with another publisher, not happening here? How do you explain that we almost never hear other developers proudly saying they've hired such and such from Rockstar to work on their games? Could it be, that maybe "it's not as bad as it seems"?

You speak very confidently about things you have no proof of and your questions ignore the very basic concerns and constraints that these developers work under. Game developers work under a culture of fear. Fear they might be let go if they don't work extra time. Fear that they will lose their health insurance. Fear that if they are let go the publisher will stain their name and they might find it hard to find another job in the industry. Fear that they might be punished if they only want to work a normal schedule or if they dare to ask for their vacation time.

I know a person who worked on a Moto GP game who went through this. His superior threatened to let him go because he had scheduled a vacation and didn't want to abdicate from it, after having already reserved a hotel and flight tickets.

I know it's rude to answer a question with another one but have you ever wondered why when these developers step forward to talk about their work conditions they always do so anonymously? Have you ever wondered why they try to not mention any particular names or very particular details?

If, as you say, things are "not as bad as it seems" they would have no reason to fear speaking out freely, to give out their names and answer interviews honestly. Your opinion is flawed because you ignore this simple fact.

Sheepinator · Oct 26, 2018

Griffith said:
You speak very confidently about things you have no proof of and your questions ignore the very basic concerns and constraints that these developers work under. Game developers work under a culture of fear. Fear they might be let go if they don't work extra time. Fear that they will lose their health insurance. Fear that if they are let go the publisher will stain their name and they might find it hard to find another job in the industry. Fear that they might be punished if they only want to work a normal schedule or if they dare to ask for their vacation time.

I know a person who worked on a Moto GP game who went through this. His superior threatened to let him go because he had scheduled a vacation and didn't want to abdicate from it, after having already reserved a hotel and flight tickets.

I know it's rude to answer a question with another one but have you ever wondered why when these developers step forward to talk about their work conditions they always do so anonymously? Have you ever wondered why they try to not mention any particular names or very particular details?

If, as you say, things are "not as bad as it seems" they would have no reason to fear speaking out freely, to give out their names and answer interviews honestly. Your opinion is flawed because you ignore this simple fact.

It's generally a bad idea to publicly speak out against your employer at any job, so the point about that being done anon is irrelevant. The part of my post you quoted saying I had no proof was all questions I was asking, which nobody has been able to answer. Where is the equivalent from Rockstar of a mass exodus leaving to form a new studio like Respawn from Infinity Ward? Or the Rockstar equivalent of David Jaffe leaving to form his own studio? Where is the equivalent of other publishers boasting about hiring the likes of Jade Raymond, Amy Hennig, Rod Fergusson, or Crystal Dynamics boasting in January this year they had hired 15 "top industry talents" (none of them from Rockstar), etc.? If things are so bad, you'd think we'd see a lot more stories about new studios forming, "GTAV developers hired to company X", etc.

Griffith · Oct 26, 2018

Sheepinator said:
It's generally a bad idea to publicly speak out against your employer at any job, so the point about that being done anon is irrelevant.

So you basically admit that the developers have reasons to speak against their employer while at the same time you also understand why it's a bad idea for them to do so. You both acknowledge the issue exists and dismiss it in the same sentence. I can't take your opinion seriously and I won't answer your "Whataboutisms".

Deleted member 1635 · Oct 26, 2018

Griffith said:
If, as you say, things are "not as bad as it seems" they would have no reason to fear speaking out freely, to give out their names and answer interviews honestly. Your opinion is flawed because you ignore this simple fact.

Yeah... that's not going to happen with just about any job.

Sheepinator · Oct 26, 2018

Griffith said:
So you basically admit that the developers have reasons to speak against their employer while at the same time you also understand why it's a bad idea for them to do so. You both acknowledge the issue exists and dismiss it in the same sentence. I can't take your opinion seriously and I won't answer your "Whataboutisms".

Those aren't "whataboutisms". If it's as bad as you say, we'd surely see exoduses, splinter studios forming, experienced devs hired by other publishers, etc.

Nozem · Oct 26, 2018

Serious question: I don't really understand why it's such a big deal that Rockstar sent an employee to investigate an NDA breach. I mean, they have to take action otherwise their NDAs are useless, right? Someone enlighten me.

Nairume · Oct 26, 2018

Nozem said:
Serious question: I don't really understand why it's such a big deal that Rockstar sent an employee to investigate an NDA breach. I mean, they have to take action otherwise their NDAs are useless, right? Someone enlighten me.

They could just send a legal notice like every normal company, not just show up at his doorstep like they were a character out of their own games.

Armaros · Oct 26, 2018

Sheepinator said:
Those aren't "whataboutisms". If it's as bad as you say, we'd surely see exoduses, splinter studios forming, experienced devs hired by other publishers, etc.

How naive are you to think people can just up and leave their jobs and start a independent studio?

You think that it's guaranteed that they can easily and instantly get a new job so they can pay their bills?

Sheepinator · Oct 26, 2018

Nozem said:
Serious question: I don't really understand why it's such a big deal that Rockstar sent an employee to investigate an NDA breach. I mean, they have to take action otherwise their NDAs are useless, right? Someone enlighten me.

Was that alleged incident actually confirmed though?

modoversus · Oct 26, 2018

Sheepinator said:
It's generally a bad idea to publicly speak out against your employer at any job, so the point about that being done anon is irrelevant. The part of my post you quoted saying I had no proof was all questions I was asking, which nobody has been able to answer. Where is the equivalent from Rockstar of a mass exodus leaving to form a new studio like Respawn from Infinity Ward? Or the Rockstar equivalent of David Jaffe leaving to form his own studio? Where is the equivalent of other publishers boasting about hiring the likes of Jade Raymond, Amy Hennig, Rod Fergusson, or Crystal Dynamics boasting in January this year they had hired 15 "top industry talents" (none of them from Rockstar), etc.? If things are so bad, you'd think we'd see a lot more stories about new studios forming, "GTAV developers hired to company X", etc.

You really need to read the Kotaku article. It is mentioned that developers are threatened to not appear on the credits if they leave, and some stay because while they admit the conditions of constant crunch are bad, the job can be creatively satisfying, or the feeling of being part of something bigger.

Not everyone that leaves a job creates a new company. Not everyone has the resources or inclination to become managers of a new company.

Sheepinator · Oct 26, 2018

Armaros said:
How naive are you to think people can just up and leave their jobs and start a independent studio?

You think that it's guaranteed that they can easily and instantly get a new job so they can pay their bills?

If they aren't earning good money (and I'm including here the bonuses and $1.9BN of royalties paid out in the last 5 years), then that's even more reason to expect them to leave. And yes, I do think having developed GTAV/RDR2 on your resume would open a lot of doors.

shiba5 · Oct 26, 2018

I noticed that someone programmed at least 3 separate animations for chopping wood into the game. You don't just swing the axe with the same effect everytime. The wood doesn't split the same way everytime.
All I could think of was, that's an impressive detail, but how many people will notice it and was it worth the crunch to get it done?
Most people will probably chop wood for the camp a few times and leave it. At what point do you step back and say, "Ok, realism is great, but we're getting diminishing returns here."

Edit: Wanted to add that I only noticed this detail because my husband chops wood and gets the axe stuck in the logs exactly the same way.

Carthago Delenda Est · Oct 26, 2018

modoversus said:
You really need to read the Kotaku article. It is mentioned that developers are threatened to not appear on the credits if they leave, and some stay because while they admit the conditions of constant crunch are bad, the job can be creatively satisfying, or the feeling of being part of something bigger.

Not everyone that leaves a job creates a new company. Not everyone has the resources or inclination to become managers of a new company.

His point is that these developers would be worth mentioning if they were to leave. Unhappy employees are more likely to leave. The fact that we're not hearing about it is at least some evidence that the developers are not terribly upset.

These hours are not good, but they are also not outrageously bad. I'm quite sure these developers are being paid very, very well for their work. People need to stop telling others how they should work. These guys are experienced programmers. If they wanted to find a 40 hour a week job, they could do it in a split second. If they're staying, they're staying because they either like the money they're getting or they like what they're doing or both. And that's not for any of us to judge.

This is not comparable to forcing factory workers to work overtime. They had no choice and that's why that was wrong. These programmers definitely have options and they're being compensated for the heavier workload.

Absolute · Oct 26, 2018

Sad to see this being downplayed.

modoversus · Oct 26, 2018

Carthago Delenda Est said:
His point is that these developers would be worth mentioning if they were to leave. Unhappy employees are more likely to leave. The fact that we're not hearing about it is at least some evidence that the developers are not terribly upset.

These hours are not good, but they are also not outrageously bad. I'm quite sure these developers are being paid very, very well for their work. People need to stop telling others how they should work. These guys are experienced programmers. If they wanted to find a 40 hour a week job, they could do it in a split second. If they're staying, they're staying because they either like the money they're getting or they like what they're doing or both. And that's not for any of us to judge.

This is not comparable to forcing factory workers to work overtime. They had no choice and that's why that was wrong. These programmers definitely have options and they're being compensated for the heavier workload.

R* does not seem to have big name developers, so it does not become news when one leaves.

It is comparable. Like, read the article. Literally it's called a culture of fear.

Kotaku's Jason Schreier: Inside Rockstar Games' Culture Of Crunch

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