mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,417
"All of you naive 18 year olds decided to get loans, you knew what you were doing." Never mind all of the societal pressures that systematically push kids into making these decisions without even having the context to understand how much money that is (in before you try to say "well I understood") . Found the victim blaming.

What I don't get is why there isn't legislation or whatever to force the companies giving out loans to at least approximate the amount someone is going to have to payout based on the amount they're taking out. Or at least some mandatory education in high school on interest rates, payments, college loans, credit cards, taxes etc., if not to the students then the parents. Like we know this is a huge decision for a 17/18 year old to make and you'd think one of the first steps would be education/transparency, but someone earlier in the thread said that when they got the loan they wouldn't even tell him the approximate payments until right before he had to start paying.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Show me the studies on overall impact on the economy. Not saying we do not need those things, but forgiveness of student bebt could go along way to get many those other things done. One by allowing those under crippling debt to be relieved of that burden to spend on child care. Could actually afford to take time off, or seek better employment with said benefits. The mental health thing may be outside of SL forgiveness, but I agree It realy needs to be addressed. But SL forgiveness would be a huge boon to everyonne not just those with debt.

Here are a few:
http://isr.unm.edu/reports/2016/cit...g-home-initiative-cost-study-report-final.pdf

https://www.americanprogress.org/is.../the-cost-of-inaction-on-universal-preschool/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-economics-of-paid-parental-leave/

There are plenty of other resources readily found. Economists have given varied proposals a great deal of study, and the overwhelming consensus is that early childhood education, parental leave, homelessness correction, etc. are vastly superior uses of money compared to student loan bailouts (particularly the no strings attached kind Warren proposed).

I hope that with concrete evidence that your former position is wrong you will now advocate against this student loan repayment program. Of course, studies have also shown that when confronted with evidence that contradicts a person's preconceptions (and personal gain), said person tends to double down on their false narrative.
 

Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
What I don't get is why there isn't legislation or whatever to force the companies giving out loans to at least approximate the amount someone is going to have to payout based on the amount they're taking out. Or at least some mandatory education in high school on interest rates, payments, college loans, credit cards, taxes etc., if not to the students then the parents. Like we know this is a huge decision for a 17/18 year old to make and you'd think one of the first steps would be education/transparency, but someone earlier in the thread said that when they got the loan they wouldn't even tell him the approximate payments until right before he had to start paying.

And that's not even a weird case, that's how it is for everyone. They also sell it as worst case, we'll just make the payments a % of your yearly income and then maybe 20 years down the road, we'll talk about forgiveness. And even then, what do you approximate it on? It's impossible to know what someone's earning potential will be when they are starting college. They don't care though, the point has been for awhile to drain people on interest payments unless they are privileged enough to have some family wealth backing and worst case for the government is the loan stays with them and the person is still on the hook years and years down the road for income tax when the loan finally gets forgiven.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,417
And that's not even a weird case, that's how it is for everyone. They also sell it as worst case, we'll just make the payments a % of your yearly income and then maybe 20 years down the road, we'll talk about forgiveness. And even then, what do you approximate it on? It's impossible to know what someone's earning potential will be when they are starting college. They don't care though, the point has been for awhile to drain people on interest payments unless they are privileged enough to have some family wealth backing and worst case for the government is the loan stays with them and the person is still on the hook years and years down the road for income tax when the loan finally gets forgiven.

I wouldn't even try to approximate payments based on income, just on paying off a loan in a certain amount of time, so they can see what a normal payment plan would look like. Obviously the people giving out the loan can offer alternative payment methods, but at the very least it should be mandatory to show just how much they'd be paying every month on a "normal" payment plan given the amount they're projected to take out.
 

Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
Here are a few:
http://isr.unm.edu/reports/2016/cit...g-home-initiative-cost-study-report-final.pdf

https://www.americanprogress.org/is.../the-cost-of-inaction-on-universal-preschool/

There are plenty of other resources readily found. Economists have given varied proposals a great deal of study, and the overwhelming consensus is that early childhood education, parental leave, homelessness correction, etc. are vastly superior uses of money than loan bailouts.

I hope that with concrete evidence that your former position is wrong you will now advocate against this student loan repayment program. Of course, studies have also shown that when confronted with evidence that contradicts a person's preconceptions (and personal gain), said person tends to double down.

Both of these show why those two ideas are also a good thing. There is no comparing/contrasting with exact economic repercussions of say aiding homelessness vs forgiving student loans. So yes, I agree those two things should be priority's as well but then you can also make the case that student loans waying people down is what leads to homelessness, fixing one would positively impact the other. Things like universal preschool and affordable child care are a bit more independent of the issue because a perfect world is that these are also government programs but more money in a family's pocket each month means more can go towards child care if that is a concern for the family.

In a nutshell, I'm not sure why these articles are applicable to this conversation.
 

Skel1ingt0n

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,963
I will literally never understand how anyone is even ABLE to take out $100,000+ in student loans.

When I was 18 I was *dirt* poor; my single mother was well-below the poverty line, and yet shackled to a house payment from pre-divorce that killed her. Anyway, I had to work three different jobs to make up the delta between my loans+grants and the actual cost. I straight-up could not secure enough loans to pay the total cost each semester; my credit was not strong enough nor did I have enough income. The answer to my problem was a co-signer... it i didn't have one of those, either.

How is any 18/19/20 year old taking out six figures of loans without a co-signer? I literally looked at every single avenue to secure more back in 2008-2011; and I straight up didn't have any options.
 

Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
I will literally never understand how anyone is even ABLE to take out $100,000+ in student loans.

When I was 18 I was *dirt* poor; my single mother was well-below the poverty line, and yet shackled to a house payment from pre-divorce that killed her. Anyway, I had to work three different jobs to make up the delta between my loans+grants and the actual cost. I straight-up could not secure enough loans to pay the total cost each semester; my credit was not strong enough nor did I have enough income. The answer to my problem was a co-signer... it i didn't have one of those, either.

How is any 18/19/20 year old taking out six figures of loans without a co-signer? I literally looked at every single avenue to secure more back in 2008-2011; and I straight up didn't have any options.

Well, you probably aren't hitting six figure in undergrad, you'll probably graduate with something more in the neighborhood of 25k-50k. Increase that all by 4 or 5 years to the 22-25 year olds doing grad school and that's where you start seeing numbers hit six figures.
 

Otakukidd

The cutest v-tuber
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,617
I wouldn't even try to approximate payments based on income, just on paying off a loan in a certain amount of time, so they can see what a normal payment plan would look like. Obviously the people giving out the loan can offer alternative payment methods, but at the very least it should be mandatory to show just how much they'd be paying every month on a "normal" payment plan given the amount they're projected to take out.
A dollar amount means nothing. when you take out the loans you aren't working at the position you are paying it off . You don't know how much you will be making after you graduate or how the job market will be. Hell I took out 30 grand for comp sci and only make 50 grand a year now. There are so many other people going for that degree and the older generation working for longer, you have each job posting being flooded causing the salary to drop. How the hell is any 18 year old supposed to expect that. How should an 18 year old supposed to know how much they are supposed to make in 4 years and a monthly bill would be too much.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,417
A dollar amount means nothing. when you take out the loans you aren't working at the position you are paying it off . You don't know how much you will be making after you graduate or how the job market will be. Hell I took out 30 grand for comp sci and only make 50 grand a year now. There are so many other people going for that degree and the older generation working for longer, you have each job posting being flooded causing the salary to drop. How the hell is any 18 year old supposed to expect that. How should an 18 year old supposed to know how much they are supposed to make in 4 years and a monthly bill would be too much.

Sure, a lot of factors can change. I still think showing exactly how much per month you'll have to pay would be worthwhile, if nothing else, than for sticker shock. Plus I don't care how old you are and how much you love the arts or whatever, you have to find some way of determining what the market is for the degree you're pursuing. In the 90s, aerospace was drying up, and a lot of people shifted to computer science or some form of engineering. You won't always be able to predict that with 100% accuracy, but you should have some idea.

The other thought I had is after we make college (public college at least) free, and assuming we don't have capacity problems, what's going to prevent a shift where an undergrad degree becomes the current HS diploma, and companies start weeding out candidates based on whether they have a postgrad degree? (this is based on complaints that a college degree is a necessity for many occupations).
 

ChristopherDX

Banned
May 8, 2018
761
That's not how life works at all though? You can get out of all the previous mentioned things much easier than student loan debt so your comparison is awful.

Your argument is awful. It's clearly the same thing.

Don't sign for a loan if you can't pay it back. Same with a house, car or things you purchase on credit.

Student loans suck...I agree I had to pay mine back as well. However, as with my home it's a struggle sometimes and I have four kids but guess what I have to pay!
 

Ensorcell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,519
Your argument is awful. It's clearly the same thing.

Don't sign for a loan if you can't pay it back. Same with a house, car or things you purchase on credit.

Student loans suck...I agree I had to pay mine back as well. However, as with my home it's a struggle sometimes and I have four kids but guess what I have to pay!
You do know you can declare bankruptcy for a credit card or leave a home without further responsibility other than bad credit right? Do you know you CANNOT do that with student loan debt? So don't even try the "Don't sign up for things you can't pay back" because guess what? A lot of people who are supposed to be more responsible than a 17 or 18 year old kid sign up for a lot of stuff and never pay it back.
 

Dr. Feel Good

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,996
I just made my final payment last month. Paid of $130K in 4 years through aggressive fucking payments, living with multiple roommates with my wife, and some luck on my career trajectory/promotions. Student loans is hell and no one should have to suffer with this crap. Clear it all and let people live their lives.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Don't sign it then? No one is forcing you to go to an expensive college taking out these massive student loans.

It's your obligation that you take on.

Hindsight is 20/20 of course. When you're told all your life that you will basically be a failure who will not amount to shit without a college degree, you're probably going to take the gamble, especially when you're 18 ~ 20 and your whole life is ahead of you, that your education will lead to a good paying career with advancement opportunities.

Public college education should be paid for through taxes, just like high school.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,417
Hindsight is 20/20 of course. When you're told all your life that you will basically be a failure who will not amount to shit without a college degree, you're probably going to take the gamble, especially when you're 18 ~ 20 and your whole life is ahead of you, that your education will lead to a good paying career with advancement opportunities.

Public college education should be paid for through taxes, just like high school.

Wouldn't that tie people to going to college within their region, though? I'm pretty sure public education is paid, at least in large part, via property taxes, and you're pretty much forced to go to school in the area unless you get an exception.
 
Jan 29, 2018
9,499
Wouldn't that tie people to going to college within their region, though? I'm pretty sure public education is paid, at least in large part, via property taxes, and you're pretty much forced to go to school in the area unless you get an exception.

That absolutely needs to be fixed too. Hell, funding education with property taxes should probably even be addressed before student loans. Right now it just means that kids born into wealthier households are likely to get a better school.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,775
That absolutely needs to be fixed too. Hell, funding education with property taxes should probably even be addressed before student loans. Right now it just means that kids born into wealthier households are likely to get a better school.

Then you will just shift the issue from wealthy neighborhoods to wealthy states. In 2016, New York on average spent $22,366 per student (K-12). Meanwhile Utah spent $6,953 per student (K-12). NY is ranked 31st nationwide in quality of K-12 education while UT is 20th.
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
Wouldn't that tie people to going to college within their region, though? I'm pretty sure public education is paid, at least in large part, via property taxes, and you're pretty much forced to go to school in the area unless you get an exception.

I don't see being forced to go to school in your area as a huge downside necessarily, especially if your education is being paid for through taxes. If you really want to go somewhere else, there should still be scholarship opportunities (not to imply that those are completely fair or 100% merit-based in all cases).
 

Emergency & I

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,634
So your plan to tackle the student loan debt crisis is to... not address student loan debt? Interesting plan.

I'd argue it does since that 43.1 million likely includes those most unable to pay their loans. Particularly those who went, but didn't finish. For real though, would you rather help those in desperate need or those with an already higher earning capacity? This effectively impoverishes those in povertymore. Why are we bailing out lawyers making $320k a year? Their $68k of loans is going to be paid off in a couple years. This is a modest, if common USC example.

On top of this, I offered another solution earlier in this thread, one aimed specifically at folks like you (I recall your prior posts about your high debt in many other threads). For real, I actually thought of you while making this original suggestion before you entered this thread. Anyway, put a hard cap on interest/interest payable. Reimburse those over this cap with a reduction in principal for the same amount as their overage. E.G. If we cap the interest payable at $5,000 and you've paid $19,427 of interest, you get a $14,427 reduction to your principal and a hard stop towards interest payments. Everything you pay moving forward goes toward your principal. You can still default for non-payment, but this actually helps you tremendously while still holding you accountable. It affords debtors the an 'extraordinary loss' while limiting their profiteering too.


I guess it's pretty easy to argue from the side that gives you and your peers a bunch of free money though while removing your respective accountability.
 

ChristopherDX

Banned
May 8, 2018
761
Hindsight is 20/20 of course. When you're told all your life that you will basically be a failure who will not amount to shit without a college degree, you're probably going to take the gamble, especially when you're 18 ~ 20 and your whole life is ahead of you, that your education will lead to a good paying career with advancement opportunities.

Public college education should be paid for through taxes, just like high school.

I signed my first house when I was 25 and I have to pay that my whole life essentially.

It sucks but it is what it is
 

Deleted member 1635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,800
I signed my first house when I was 25 and I have to pay that my whole life essentially.

It sucks but it is what it is

No you don't. You have tons of options. You can refinance to a shorter payment plan. You can sell the house and move somewhere cheaper. You could rent out your house to meet your mortgage payments while you live somewhere else that is cheaper. Hell you can just default on the damn thing if you really wanted to.

And also, please understand that most people in this world aren't going to have the same circumstances that you did.
 

Ensorcell

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,519
Don't sign it then? No one is forcing you to go to an expensive college taking out these massive student loans.

It's your obligation that you take on.
Yeah, but your original proposition was that a student loan works like any other part of "life" or finance, I'm saying that's wrong. No one is forcing you to rack up a huge credit card bill either yet you can still get out of that relatively easy. It's not the same, don't pretend like it is.
 

PrimeBeef

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,840
Doesn't really surprise me.
For many majors there are few jobs out there that honest to god REQUIRE anything higher than Bachelors. Nothing wrong with that. Just because tuition is cheaper doesn't mean everyone will or needs to jump the gun to go to college.
The problem is for many Americans just getting that Bachelors puts you in a financial black hole and effects the entire economy with it.
The problem is society has deemed it necessary to have a college education only for work, and most of the jobs out there do not ever actually require a secondary education to fulfill. Education just for being educated is looked down upon. I've seen this sentiment on hee and other places a lot, that if you are not going to get a degree worth using in the owrkforce
Here are a few:
http://isr.unm.edu/reports/2016/cit...g-home-initiative-cost-study-report-final.pdf

https://www.americanprogress.org/is.../the-cost-of-inaction-on-universal-preschool/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-economics-of-paid-parental-leave/

There are plenty of other resources readily found. Economists have given varied proposals a great deal of study, and the overwhelming consensus is that early childhood education, parental leave, homelessness correction, etc. are vastly superior uses of money compared to student loan bailouts (particularly the no strings attached kind Warren proposed).

I hope that with concrete evidence that your former position is wrong you will now advocate against this student loan repayment program. Of course, studies have also shown that when confronted with evidence that contradicts a person's preconceptions (and personal gain), said person tends to double down on their false narrative.
No I like facts and respect them. I was just going off the study that was posted early in the thread about SL forgiveness. This was the fist I've seen on what you had mention previously, other than early ed, ty.
 

PieOMy

Member
Nov 15, 2018
627
Boston
And home ownership, credit cards, auto loans aren't hurting older folks?

No one is forcing you to go to college and take loans out. You sign the obligation, and now you have to pay. That's how life works.

Teenagers know nothing about finances. You don't deserve forgiveness on the house you bought because home ownership is a luxury. So are auto loans and credit cards. College and education in general should not be a luxury.
 

Emergency & I

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,634
No you don't. You have tons of options. You can refinance to a shorter payment plan. You can sell the house and move somewhere cheaper. You could rent out your house to meet your mortgage payments while you live somewhere else that is cheaper. Hell you can just default on the damn thing if you really wanted to.

And also, please understand that most people in this world aren't going to have the same circumstances that you did.


'Tons of options' = bootstraps.
 

Pooh

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,849
The Hundred Acre Wood
I'd argue it does since that 43.1 million likely includes those most unable to pay their loans. Particularly those who went, but didn't finish. For real though, would you rather help those in desperate need or those with an already higher earning capacity? This effectively impoverishes those in povertymore. Why are we bailing out lawyers making $320k a year? Their $68k of loans is going to be paid off in a couple years. This is a modest, if common USC example.

On top of this, I offered another solution earlier in this thread, one aimed specifically at folks like you (I recall your prior posts about your high debt in many other threads). For real, I actually thought of you while making this original suggestion before you entered this thread. Anyway, put a hard cap on interest/interest payable. Reimburse those over this cap with a reduction in principal for the same amount as their overage. E.G. If we cap the interest payable at $5,000 and you've paid $19,427 of interest, you get a $14,427 reduction to your principal and a hard stop towards interest payments. Everything you pay moving forward goes toward your principal. You can still default for non-payment, but this actually helps you tremendously while still holding you accountable. It affords debtors the an 'extraordinary loss' while limiting their profiteering too.


I guess it's pretty easy to argue from the side that gives you and your peers a bunch of free money though while removing your respective accountability.

My issue with helping the poorest that way is it's more likely to be a giveaway to credit card companies, which I mean -- we need to help the poor in every way possible, but it doesn't seem like even the majority of that money goes to paying off student loans, so it seems sort of beside the point.

I must've forgotten to mention it earlier but I thought the interest cap was a reasonable idea. To be clear I'm not saying I just want a way out, I don't want others to get into the situation I've gotten into. And I agree there's no reason to bail out people making high salaries like those in the highest income brackets, but I think you could easily make a calculation as to whether somebody qualifies for debt relief based on their last 2-5 years of tax returns versus their amount owed. That said, the point ultimately is that the system and its incentives right now are really out of whack -- to be totally honest they never should've been even allowed to loan me the money they did, and they only did so because they knew I wouldn't be able to get out of it through bankruptcy. The desire to have everyone go to college is great, but the structure we use makes it so the money faucet is essentially open, meaning universities can continue to charge ever increasing amounts of money because, what, are you NOT going to go to college in this job environment? So the cycle continues.

I still think a forgiveness of some amount would be a necessary starting point, even in tandem with your suggestion. Warren's proposal doesn't wipe out my debt anyway, for instance, and I'm not arguing it should.

If you think I'm just arguing for "free money" you really aren't understanding me. I'm all for accountability, but there needs to be accountability for the bad actors and perverse incentive structure that was created as well.

I would also be fine with just re-enabling bankruptcy on student loans. Hell, put a limit on it so you can't do it immediately after college since people are afraid of that theoretical scenario that only happens a fraction of a percentage of the time but whatever. Make it so there's a 10 year repayment window, after which you can file for bankruptcy and erase your student loan debt if you need to. Student loan debt shouldn't be worse debt than everything else.
 

higemaru

Member
Nov 30, 2017
4,139
Teenagers know nothing about finances. You don't deserve forgiveness on the house you bought because home ownership is a luxury. So are auto loans and credit cards. College and education in general should not be a luxury.
Agree with your last point, but for many people, credit cards are not a luxury. Yes, an AmEX card is a luxury and yes, people do use credit cards for superfluous spending, but many credit card companies specifically advertise to lower-income households as it helps them pay for groceries, clothes, childcare, other necessities that two 40-hour jobs might not be able to cover in addition to rent, utilities, medicine. Credit card companies in general are predatory and have made it so that credit cards are considered to be an extension of your income, not purely for luxury/convenience purposes.

also, if my university thinks I'm paying back my loans in full, I have some bad news for them. Basically every single person I know has terrible credit because of student loan debt, I am not afraid to join their ranks. Maybe I'll make my Tinder profile "looking for someone with good credit"
 

Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
I'd argue it does since that 43.1 million likely includes those most unable to pay their loans. Particularly those who went, but didn't finish. For real though, would you rather help those in desperate need or those with an already higher earning capacity? This effectively impoverishes those in povertymore. Why are we bailing out lawyers making $320k a year? Their $68k of loans is going to be paid off in a couple years. This is a modest, if common USC example.

On top of this, I offered another solution earlier in this thread, one aimed specifically at folks like you (I recall your prior posts about your high debt in many other threads). For real, I actually thought of you while making this original suggestion before you entered this thread. Anyway, put a hard cap on interest/interest payable. Reimburse those over this cap with a reduction in principal for the same amount as their overage. E.G. If we cap the interest payable at $5,000 and you've paid $19,427 of interest, you get a $14,427 reduction to your principal and a hard stop towards interest payments. Everything you pay moving forward goes toward your principal. You can still default for non-payment, but this actually helps you tremendously while still holding you accountable. It affords debtors the an 'extraordinary loss' while limiting their profiteering too.


I guess it's pretty easy to argue from the side that gives you and your peers a bunch of free money though while removing your respective accountability.

You're so close to acting like a good faith arguer but then you continue to feel the need to use an extreme fringe example (citing a lawyer with an extremely high pay and an extremely low loan amount for law school) and then in your post in low quality digs on people based on assumptions. It's hard to take you seriously otherwise. Your idea is fine and probably the more realistic thing that would get the shittiest part of our country to maybe go for it although it's just extra hoops to make sure people are tied down but not too tied down.

I guess a better thought experiment to understand you better is pretend this was a ballot measure. There's no negotiating the point of what's in the proposal, it's a two pronged law that would forgive all outstanding student loan debt and make public college free to the student going forward. It's come with a tax increase to everyone with a rate that makes sense in conjunction with wealth (ie poverty level incomes are seeing no increase, extremely wealthy are seeing a huge hit).

Are you voting yes or no to that?

I signed my first house when I was 25 and I have to pay that my whole life essentially.

It sucks but it is what it is

As everyone already described, it's not the same in the least because of the specific laws passed around student loans. You trying to pretend otherwise tells me you know nothing about American economics and that seems to be most of the issue, a basic lack of teaching anyone how our economy works unless they go out of their way to pursue that knowledge.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
I was ruminating on this last night and maybe a sliding scale so that the more loans you have and the less income you have the more you qualify for full reimbursement, and then this applies retroactively for the last 10 years so that people with large loans also get some kind of reimbursement like tax credits, also based on income and current financial situation so we don't need to reimburse 200k loan med students with 100k jobs and we can funnel that to people who didn't leave college with a 6 figure job waiting for them. Payment/reimbursement will depend on submitting academic record, bank records, tax returns, etc.

Of course, retroactive reimbursement is a harder sell. It is effectively just giving money to people and we all know that's socialism.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
I was ruminating on this last night and maybe a sliding scale so that the more loans you have and the less income you have the more you qualify for full reimbursement, and then this applies retroactively for the last 10 years so that people with large loans also get some kind of reimbursement like tax credits, also based on income and current financial situation so we don't need to reimburse 200k loan med students with 100k jobs and we can funnel that to people who didn't leave college with a 6 figure job waiting for them. Payment/reimbursement will depend on submitting academic record, bank records, tax returns, etc.

Of course, retroactive reimbursement is a harder sell. It is effectively just giving money to people and we all know that's socialism.

Or just implement 10-30 year income based repayment plans that take a small percentage of your annual income and forgive the remainder of the debt (up to some limit), as have already been implemented elsewhere with great success elsewhere. Then spend the savings on programs that have a better return on investment for the country as a whole, such as resolving homelessness and providing stronger parental/childcare support (see studies above).

Simultaneously, reduce the cost of college by cracking down on for-profit schools like University of Phoenix (which have the highest debt load for students), reducing the availability of student loans (which is a primary driver in skyrocketing tuition), and promoting community and technical colleges. Temporarily up grants and scholarships as necessary during the transition.

Vastly better outcomes, vastly less expensive.
 

Green Yoshi

Attempted to circumvent ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,597
Cologne (Germany)
Interesting, thanks for the insight.

Only 28 percent of Germans over the age of 25 hold a postsecondary degree. That rate is ridiculously low compared to other first world countries.
For many jobs you don't need a postsecondary degree compared to other countries. For example kindergarten teachers and nurses have a different form of education. Bank clerks and office clerks also don't usually visit an university. Nowadays 60% of young people go to university after school but only 36% of all young people get a university degree. Especially in natural science subjects (physics, chemistry, computer science) many drop out.
 

mrmoose

Member
Nov 13, 2017
21,417
Or just implement 10-30 year income based repayment plans that take a small percentage of your annual income and forgive the remainder of the debt (up to some limit), as have already been implemented elsewhere with great success elsewhere. Then spend the savings on programs that have a better return on investment for the country as a whole, such as resolving homelessness and providing stronger parental/childcare support (see studies above).

Simultaneously, reduce the cost of college by cracking down on for-profit schools like University of Phoenix (which have the highest debt load for students), reducing the availability of student loans (which is a primary driver in skyrocketing tuition), and promoting community and technical colleges. Temporarily up grants and scholarships as necessary during the transition.

Vastly better outcomes, vastly less expensive.

Now I'm curious, do the for profit schools like University of Phoenix cost the same amount as public institutions, or is it just that the people going there take out more loans? Otherwise, I'm not sure why you'd ever go there instead of a public school, unless you can't get into the latter. I understand the appeal of online classes but that's gotta be improving for public schools as well, right?
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,775
For many jobs you don't need a postsecondary degree compared to other countries. For example kindergarten teachers and nurses have a different form of education. Bank clerks and office clerks also don't usually visit an university. Nowadays 60% of young people go to university after school but only 36% of all young people get a university degree. Especially in natural science subjects (physics, chemistry, computer science) many drop out.

That makes sense. Thanks again, much appreciated. If nothing else this whole discussion, that started two days ago with the Warren proposal, has been incredibly educational both here and at work. Lots to think about.
 

Deleted member 8860

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Now I'm curious, do the for profit schools like University of Phoenix cost the same amount as public institutions, or is it just that the people going there take out more loans? Otherwise, I'm not sure why you'd ever go there instead of a public school, unless you can't get into the latter. I understand the appeal of online classes but that's gotta be improving for public schools as well, right?

https://www.theatlantic.com/educati...-saddled-with-debt-they-cant-pay-back/568834/

Research has shown that for-profit colleges disproportionately enroll black students, single parents, and older students. On its face, that seems like a good thing, since it means increased access to higher education. But for-profits tend to be more expensive, have lower six-year graduation rates, and lead students to take out more loans that they are more likely to default on. Yet, despite all the red flags, students described the process for enrolling in the institutions as virtually seamless—"frictionless," even.
 

Sorian

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Oct 25, 2017
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Now I'm curious, do the for profit schools like University of Phoenix cost the same amount as public institutions, or is it just that the people going there take out more loans? Otherwise, I'm not sure why you'd ever go there instead of a public school, unless you can't get into the latter. I understand the appeal of online classes but that's gotta be improving for public schools as well, right?

The university of phoenix's sell themselves as short cuts. They are usually targeted at people who are outside of your typical college student (whether that be due to age or having a family already or whatever the case happens to be) and those schools will commercialize the idea that you could come here and complete something that will only take two years when it would take four in the normal college setting.
 

samoyed

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Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Or just implement 10-30 year income based repayment plans that take a small percentage of your annual income and forgive the remainder of the debt (up to some limit), as have already been implemented elsewhere with great success elsewhere. Then spend the savings on programs that have a better return on investment for the country as a whole, such as resolving homelessness and providing stronger parental/childcare support (see studies above).

Simultaneously, reduce the cost of college by cracking down on for-profit schools like University of Phoenix (which have the highest debt load for students), reducing the availability of student loans (which is a primary driver in skyrocketing tuition), and promoting community and technical colleges. Temporarily up grants and scholarships as necessary during the transition.

Vastly better outcomes, vastly less expensive.
I don't think this is a bad idea by any means but this is basically a new policy framework.

Although it works well with Warren's childcare plans.
 

hydrophilic attack

Corrupted by Vengeance
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Oct 25, 2017
21,602
Sweden
Here are a few:
http://isr.unm.edu/reports/2016/cit...g-home-initiative-cost-study-report-final.pdf

https://www.americanprogress.org/is.../the-cost-of-inaction-on-universal-preschool/

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-economics-of-paid-parental-leave/

There are plenty of other resources readily found. Economists have given varied proposals a great deal of study, and the overwhelming consensus is that early childhood education, parental leave, homelessness correction, etc. are vastly superior uses of money compared to student loan bailouts (particularly the no strings attached kind Warren proposed).

I hope that with concrete evidence that your former position is wrong you will now advocate against this student loan repayment program. Of course, studies have also shown that when confronted with evidence that contradicts a person's preconceptions (and personal gain), said person tends to double down on their false narrative.
i don't know if it was accidental or if you're deliberately arguing in bad faith, but your post came off as saying that those studies show that your proposals would be better than student loan forgiveness. none of them do. none even mention student loans

yes, all of those policies are objectively good policies same as student loan debt forgiveness objectively being good policy. why are you pitting them against each other? implement all of those objectively good policies including student debt loan forgiveness

(i posted a report on page one showing that student loan forgiveness would have a very positive impact on the economy)
 

Emergency & I

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Oct 27, 2017
6,634
You're so close to acting like a good faith arguer but then you continue to feel the need to use an extreme fringe example (citing a lawyer with an extremely high pay and an extremely low loan amount for law school) and then in your post in low quality digs on people based on assumptions. It's hard to take you seriously otherwise. Your idea is fine and probably the more realistic thing that would get the shittiest part of our country to maybe go for it although it's just extra hoops to make sure people are tied down but not too tied down.

I guess a better thought experiment to understand you better is pretend this was a ballot measure. There's no negotiating the point of what's in the proposal, it's a two pronged law that would forgive all outstanding student loan debt and make public college free to the student going forward. It's come with a tax increase to everyone with a rate that makes sense in conjunction with wealth (ie poverty level incomes are seeing no increase, extremely wealthy are seeing a huge hit).

Are you voting yes or no to that?



As everyone already described, it's not the same in the least because of the specific laws passed around student loans. You trying to pretend otherwise tells me you know nothing about American economics and that seems to be most of the issue, a basic lack of teaching anyone how our economy works unless they go out of their way to pursue that knowledge.


Low class dig? Hardly. I'm been around Pooh for years on here/the old place. If anything I'm extending empathy through an idea because I recall his interest payments being horseshit.

A lawyer making $320k with 68k is hardly fringe. There are so many higher and lower examples like this with manageable debt.


Don't bring up 'good faith'. That's a really garbage angle considering the argument.

The system isn't broken, it's just flawed and making people think twice about getting an education. Also I would vote yes to free education but it would be done over generations, gradually.
 

Pooh

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Oct 25, 2017
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The Hundred Acre Wood
Low class dig? Hardly. I'm been around Pooh for years on here/the old place. If anything I'm extending empathy through an idea because I recall his interest payments being horseshit.

A lawyer making $320k with 68k is hardly fringe. There are so many higher and lower examples like this with manageable debt.


Don't bring up 'good faith'. That's a really garbage angle considering the argument.

The system isn't broken, it's just flawed and making people think twice about getting an education. Also I would vote yes to free education but it would be done over generations, gradually.

Yeah I appreciate it Sorian but Kevtones and I go way back, we can josh each other a bit, I think we both know we mean well even through some disagreement
 

Sorian

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Oct 25, 2017
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Low class dig? Hardly. I'm been around Pooh for years on here/the old place. If anything I'm extending empathy through an idea because I recall his interest payments being horseshit.

A lawyer making $320k with 68k is hardly fringe. There are so many higher and lower examples like this with manageable debt.


Don't bring up 'good faith'. That's a really garbage angle considering the argument.

The system isn't broken, it's just flawed and making people think twice about getting an education. Also I would vote yes to free education but it would be done over generations, gradually.

Ok sure, I'll ignore the you and Pooh thing (even though you did drag on other people without naming anyway).

Your lawyer example is odd because that specific lawyer making that much with that little debt for the field has been practicing for awhile, they sure as hell aren't doing that out of college even a few years out.

Yeah, any argument can have good faith and bad faith actors so I'll double down on that point. Not throwing it away for "garbage"

And completely dodged my actual question so whatever.
 

Emergency & I

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Oct 27, 2017
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Yeah I appreciate it Sorian but Kevtones and I go way back, we can josh each other a bit, I think we both know we mean well even through some disagreement

You're a USC fan in Oregon territory and we are insufferable. If anyone deserves something it's you.

Ok sure, I'll ignore the you and Pooh thing (even though you did drag on other people without naming anyway).

Your lawyer example is odd because that specific lawyer making that much with that little debt for the field has been practicing for awhile, they sure as hell aren't doing that out of college even a few years out.

Yeah, any argument can have good faith and bad faith actors so I'll double down on that point. Not throwing it away for "garbage"

And completely dodged my actual question so whatever.


I did answer it actually in so many words. But to be more I wouldn't vote for that proposal. I am 100% on board with free education (eventually) and against complete forgiveness. I am 100% for improving the deeply flawed system.
 

Sorian

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Oct 25, 2017
9,964
You're a USC fan in Oregon territory and we are insufferable. If anyone deserves something it's you.




I did answer it actually in so many words. But to be more I wouldn't vote for that proposal. I am 100% on board with free education (eventually) and against complete forgiveness. I am 100% for improving the deeply flawed system.

Cool, I think you made fun of it earlier in the thread, but you are 100% conservative through and through then and don't pretend otherwise in the future. "Eventually" is just a dog whistle for "someone else can pay for that free education because I'm not" and you aren't actually interested in improving the flawed system because a yes to that is a clear improvement to the system even if it comes with the debatable "forgive all loans immediately." What you are really doing is "I won't vote for anything less than the perfect solution and we all know there is no perfect solution."
 

Nothing Loud

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Oct 25, 2017
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My email from the Warren campaign today said Warren's wealth tax on the 75,000 wealthiest families will fund free childcare, free Pre-K, free public tuition and student debt forgiveness lined out in her plan with still over a trillion dollars left over. FYI for those who aren't sure how this could be funded.

More details at her website and here https://medium.com/@teamwarren/im-c...blic-college-and-cancellation-of-a246cd0f910f
 

Deleted member 8860

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Oct 26, 2017
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i don't know if it was accidental or if you're deliberately arguing in bad faith, but your post came off as saying that those studies show that your proposals would be better than student loan forgiveness. none of them do. none even mention student loans

yes, all of those policies are objectively good policies same as student loan debt forgiveness objectively being good policy. why are you pitting them against each other? implement all of those objectively good policies including student debt loan forgiveness

(i posted a report on page one showing that student loan forgiveness would have a very positive impact on the economy)

Okay, I'll spell it out.

Student loan forgiveness ( http://www.levyinstitute.org/pubs/rpr_2_6.pdf ) = a 0.5x to 1.5x economic multiplier over a 10 year time period

Universal Pre-K ( http://www.wsipp.wa.gov/BenefitCost/Program/270 (linked from my previous link) ) = a 4.6x economic multiplier over a extended time period

Housing and counseling for the homelessness ( http://isr.unm.edu/reports/2016/cit...g-home-initiative-cost-study-report-final.pdf ) = 1.3x economic multiplier over a single year, 1.07x after three years

Paid family leave ( https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-economics-of-paid-parental-leave/ ; http://www.remi.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/487-DC-Economic-Policy-Impact-Statement.pdf ) = technically infinite multiplier in California's case, as no cost to government or employers; 0.999x economic multiplier over a ten year period for DC, but saves lives and increases workplace engagement for women

Paid family leave (as implemented by California and DC) and housing for the homeless have very small start-up costs. Universal Pre-K is expensive, but not nearly as expensive as student loan forgiveness.