LGBT Representation in Gaming - should it be proportional or equal?

[Aaronrules380]

And I wouldn't like if it happened the other way either. I think forcing anyone to alter their vision or what they want to create is bad. It's a dark path because forcing people to create a certain thing isn't right.

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You don't even need to force perse. Policies that incentivize the creation of those types of characters would also be acceptable. But the reality is that finding a game that hasn't needed to alter it's vision for one reason or another is going to be incredibly difficult to say the least.

 

[Cynn]

i really don't think it's valuable to think of representation in a 'X% of the characters must be LGBT' kind of way

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Agreed. Creative endeavors shouldn't have recipies or requirements attached to them.

 

[Theory]

all I'm saying, unless the game involves you repopulating the world, there's no reason for them to be straight.

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Ha I love this.

 

[Twenty5Thousand]

Now we need a similar thing but for gay men. Can you imagine if Gears of War, Halo or an Uncharted spinoff featured a gay man and his partner as prominently as tlou2 seems to? The salt.

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I'm almost positive that if Dom didn't have a pre-established relationship with Maria, the majority of people playing Gears would've rooted for Marcus and Dom hooking up. Their relationship is the epitome of bromance.

 

[FF Seraphim]

No need for quotas. What the industry needs is a more diverse team of developers whose ideas will not get shot down for wanting something different.

However, look at the industry today and know this will not happen as often as one likes with AAA games. We need more development of A to AA games to come back like the days of the PS1/2 so people can take more chances without needing an absurd budget they need to regain.

 

[Osu 16 Bit]

I don't know what the right ratio for trans representation is but when you can't come up with a top 5 list of positive trans characters without having like, Birdo in it then we're probably not close to what it should be.

 

[Trigonometrize]

IMO their should roughly be proportional representation of LGBT+ for the people conceptualizing and writing video game characters, and non-LGBT should be heavily encouraged to try things outside their comfort zone. From there, let the chips fall where they may I guess.

 

[Deleted member 13250]

Yep. The idea that more than a tiny minority of games are the result of a singular creative vision that hasn't been tampered with at all is honestly kind of absurd

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another way to view this is you're saying let's make games how you think they're being made now... by some corporate committee forcing changes to justify appealing to a wider audience. Why then, if you aren't satisfied with this direction, would you wanna employ this tactic yourself in order to force diversity in games? Don't most people agree that this is the wrong way to make games? In games that have a more narrative focus, the artist needs to be able to freely create whatever they need.
I believe the Last of us is a great example of the devs pushing for having Ellie on the cover. That's a good way to force their vision. But that is the last step in them creating their story and characters.

 

[P-Tux7]

I'm really happy at the suggestions that instead of having quotas for LGBT characters, to just remove the industry's "quotas" for cishet characters. I wish I had thought of that.

I don't know what the right ratio for trans representation is but when you can't come up with a top 5 list of positive trans characters without having like, Birdo in it then we're probably not close to what it should be.

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I find the idea that "You can't make a trans NPC just tell you their life story, that's so unrealistic!" All the better to make them a protagonist or party member whose story you experience instead of get told. If Terra can have a story about feeling conflicted about being half human and half esper, and her limit break is literally turn into an Esper , then I don't see why a similar story can't be told about a trans person.

That's great that you want to play those games. That doesn't mean force people to make games that you want to play. Starting conversations about getting people who want to make those games into a position to actually make those games is a start. But saying you need a specific number of games and that people have to make them isn't gonna further that goal.

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I mean, straight people get games that cater to their romantic fantasies without even asking. I don't think me wanting the amount of gay games to be equal to that is wrong. One just doesn't have to "say you need" a specific amount of games or "force" people to make them because if you're a straight person you have a huge abundance (though lacking in female-centered romance as has been mentioned). I have a right to bemoan that I don't get the good feelings that straight people can and do get, and ask for help for the community as a whole to get that validation from games.

 

[P-Tux7]

No need for quotas. What the industry needs is a more diverse team of developers whose ideas will not get shot down for wanting something different.

However, look at the industry today and know this will not happen as often as one likes with AAA games. We need more development of A to AA games to come back like the days of the PS1/2 so people can take more chances without needing an absurd budget they need to regain.

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Whoops, forgot to reply to this sorry. So is it probably going to be a "trickle up" effect, that the lower-class/budget games will have representation before the AAA ones do?
Also, is it wrong of me to want big-budget games like a Tales series etc. to tackle subjects like these? That's what I really would have wanted as a child, the biggest games ever tackling issues that related to me to prove that even the people of highest status cared about me.

 

[timedesk]

another way to view this is you're saying let's make games how you think they're being made now... by some corporate committee forcing changes to justify appealing to a wider audience. Why then, if you aren't satisfied with this direction, would you wanna employ this tactic yourself in order to force diversity in games? Don't most people agree that this is the wrong way to make games? In games that have a more narrative focus, the artist needs to be able to freely create whatever they need.
I believe the Last of us is a great example of the devs pushing for having Ellie on the cover. That's a good way to force their vision. But that is the last step in them creating their story and characters.

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I have a hard time understanding your point. Are you arguing that the queer game fans should just settle for small indie games that can be written by one person? You understand that games and even movies, are often written by more than one person, and things like RPGs or complex story games can often have entire teams of writers right?

Most people that want an increase in diversity understand that change rarely comes from just waiting and not participating in the culture you wish to see evolve. Game stories and leads will only really change if they see some benefit to changing. People act like the solution to just have more queer creatives, ignoring that they have to be put in positions where they can actually be allowed to create games with a large queer cast. Those decisions will come from the studios, and they will only ever allow it if they think there is a financial benefit to making a product like that.

So where does that leave queer fans? They have to demonstrate that they are an audience worth marketing towards. To do that they have to make their voices heard, and part of that is complaining about a lack of representation.

 

[P-Tux7]

Also, is there a way for the queer community to have their voices heard by the big boys (Nintendo, Square, etc) or do we just have to try to get indie games on our side and hope that the big companies take notice of their success? I really don't want to have to wait 10 years to effect change at those big companies.

 

[Deleted member 5549]

And I wouldn't like if it happened the other way either. I think forcing anyone to alter their vision or what they want to create is bad. It's a dark path because forcing people to create a certain thing isn't right.

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I think "forcing" is a bit of a strong word here, you're not shooting a puppy in the head. how about "challenging" instead, why won't you challenge yourself by writing a gay protagonist? people threw buckets of ice water onto themselves. nobody "forced" them to do it.

 

[FF Seraphim]

Whoops, forgot to reply to this sorry. So is it probably going to be a "trickle up" effect, that the lower-class/budget games will have representation before the AAA ones do?
Also, is it wrong of me to want big-budget games like a Tales series etc. to tackle subjects like these? That's what I really would have wanted as a child, the biggest games ever tackling issues that related to me to prove that even the people of highest status cared about me.

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Its not wrong to want that and honestly we should have that in our games. Gamers should demand to have games like that if they want their hobby to be taken more seriously.
The problem lies with the industry itself. Look at how most AAA publishers work, EA kills studios if they dont make enough profit. Ubisoft has found a tried and true formula they are now slowly implementing somesort of representation for LGBT but even that doesn't always work considering the DLC. Activision probably won't bother unless it can make CoD money and even if it did it would probably still disappoint them.

 

[P-Tux7]

Or in other words, does it seem likely that I"ll have to wait 10 years for the games I wanted 10 years ago? Sorry for the disjointed thoughts, having one of my emotional times
EDIT: Ninja'd, sorry for the out-of-context post

 

[Deleted member 13250]

I have a hard time understanding your point.

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I agree with everything you just said. I just disagree that sitting in a board room and saying "ok half of these characters need to be gay" is the answer for representation.
One of the biggest and most critically hailed games in the Last of us had great representation, and I believe it was the devs and writers who wanted to organically create the diverse cast through narrative and not through a check list.
OF COURSE none of us were involved in creating these games so it's all just projection and none of us will know how they came about making the characters.

 

[Dogui]

Devs shouldn't be forced to do any kind of quota at all. A dev that doesn't understand LGTB stuff would make a shitty representation of it, like sorta what happens in some Atlus games.

If anything, industry should have more LGBT devs, so they could decide that.

 

[Illusion]

Me, on the asexual side of things. I hate when we have two same-sex characters that get along too well in a video game and people scream at the game industry to make them gay and call them cowards for not making their ship reality. Like why can't they just be best friends or even asexual? Why can't we have characters that can hug and show affection without fans immediately demanding LGBT representation.

In the creative process, I'd like more creators to spend more time developing new LGBTQIA+ characters into their games. But I enjoy these things as they come naturally then ask for a quota or gatekeeping. I dislike the idea that any representation is good representation, that's how we get stereotypes and or badly written characters that causes more problems and public anger & outcry then actual good.

 

[P-Tux7]

So, is there some way through activism that I can get big series on the scale of Final Fantasy, Zelda, Tales, Persona, etc. to start having LGBT MCs or party members? I'd love to make an indie game but if I'm being honest that's not the scale of game that kid me wanted 10 years ago, and that's a little depressing. I'm begging for some way to turn the tide instead of having to wait 20 years for series on the budget of those to start being allowed to have LGBT MCs.

 

[timedesk]

Me, on the asexual side of things. I hate when we have two same-sex characters that get along too well in a video game and people scream at the game industry to make them gay and call them cowards for not making their ship reality. Like why can't they just he best friends or even asexual? Why can't we have characters that can hug and show affection without fans immediately demanding LGBT representation.

In the creative process, I'd like more creators to spend more time developing new LGBTQIA+ characters into their games. But I enjoy these things as they come naturally then ask for a quota or gatekeeping. I dislike the idea that any representation is good representation, that's how we get stereotypes and or badly written characters that causes more problems and public anger & outcry then actual good.

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First I want to say I would love to see more asexual characters. Asexuality is too often ignored in most media and should have a place in games, especially games that like to claim they provide players choice in their character's sexuality.

I think part of the reason fans are so quick to claim characters are gay, or to demand representation is because there really isn't an overabundance of it. Some LGBT fans see a character that isn't immediately identified as hetero and want to claim them because they are so used to not having anything. It absolutely can come at the expense of same sex friendships though, and that can be problematic.

I still argue that increased representation is the answer. If there are actual queer ships, then there is less of a need to create your own, or to demand characters be something they're not. I think representation is important to this industry both for what it provides queer fans, and what it can do to drive out or challenge some of gaming's more toxic fans.

 

[LazyLain]

all I'm saying, unless the game involves you repopulating the world, there's no reason for them to be straight.

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Well there is the matter of what demographics the creators fit into, and whether they could do different demographics justice.

If a straight guy made a Stardew Valley/Harvest Moon clone all by himself, I wouldn't blame him if he didn't feel up to the task of writing convincing gay romance options. He'd probably struggle enough trying to write the female characters for the player to woo.

But yeah, in the AAA realm where they've got big budgets and big teams, and can almost certainly find the talent to do any given demographic justice, there's no excuse. Equal representation should be what they strive for.

 

[Ichi]

equal. in fact, we need a game where the majority are minorities for a change.

 

[DrArchon]

equal. in fact, we need a game where the majority are minorities for a change.

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Have you heard the good word about indie games?

 

[ThisIsBlitz21]

Neither of those. Just let the creative minds at the studio chose.

 

[Huey]

i think it should come from the creators. If developers have a meaningful experience to convey or tale to tell, then they should be able to find a voice in this medium. The biggest problem with equal representation I can see if that you might have a lot of straight people trying to ham-fistedly convey the unique perspective of an LGBT person, the same way that films for years tried - some in earnest I assume - to include black people but ended up making racist white takes on black people, like the "magical black" trope.

The biggest issue is access to having a voice, which there is not enough of for LGBT devs. Let's correct that.

 

[Deleted member 8001]

It really depends on the game.

So I think my answer will be we need lots more representation, not a specific number, but certainly a increase across the board.

Oh and something really important, if you have a game where you date characters, add options for gayness please. There's no good reason to block that off most of the time.

 

[Deleted member 41271]

Oh and something really important, if you have a game where you date characters, add options for gayness please. There's no good reason to block that off most of the time.

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This. Some games really block that hard intentionally with often very little reason to.
As you say, more overall representation would help. Sure would get more different perspectives into development.

Then the dev never choose to add diverse leads because they cater to all you dorks who say "I dOnT pLaY gAmEs tHaT fOcUs oN SeXuAliTy"

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Yep. Not to mention the publishers that have, for literal decades, pushed against any tiny hint of non-cishet stuff in games regardless how minute. People pretending that the force is about forcing devs to add it are so full of it, lying through their teeth. The pathetically low amount of non-cishet stuff in games was incredibly hard fought, usually by a lone queer dev. Anyone remember the Sim Tower protest easter egg? I sure do.




We know the push is hard the other way and still is. heck, we can't even give female characters boyfriends without goobergobbers freaking out, and there's always a push to make women more ~vulnerable~ and ~available~ for the presumedly male audience. Even the tomb raider reboot was designed around that entire concept, not about emphasizing with Lara or even identifying as her, but wanting to ~protect~ her. Because god forbid a player emphasize with a character that's not a straight dude.

Imagine Sekiro being designed about wanting to protect poor, vulnerable, shy Sekiro-chan while every animation played up his suffering with moans that sound oddly sexualized. Just imagine how weird that would feel. That's Tomb Raider.


Ultimately, the issue goes deeper though. Studios don't give queer devs spots usually, female devs have to work twice as hard to get to the same spot, and a good number of male devs oddly keep working hard to keep things that way. Some, like Jonathan Blow, are nowadays outright stating that women just don't have it.
The games industry is notoriously unsafe for non-straight guy people. Like, even the regular tech industry is better, much better in fact, and that industry already is considered bad for people that aren't cishet men. The games industry is notoriously bad. It's a vicious circle at this point:

Studios do their best to keep anything out of games that's not solely catering to guys, marketing solely caters to guys, platforms like steam see no issue with rape glorification (only with the backlash against it), devs loudly proclaim that women just aren't as good, and studios love hanging out non-male devs to catch the backlash from a reactionary crowd while the studio twiddles its thumbs.

So people that aren't straight guys have it harder to get anything that inspires us, or make stuff ourselves, so people don't see us, and argue there shouldn't be spots for us/we don't have it while marketing encourages the crowd to take games as guy-only and attack anyone else. No wonder gaming's so toxic. It's grown that way. Gaming didn't end up in this spot naturally.

 

[TheIlliterati]

Any game where you can create a character should have all the options available so anybody can be whoever they want to be or are. And any game creator who wants to make a game that is specifically starring a LGBTQIA character should have an equal opportunity and right to make it and sell it. I think we're pretty close there. There should definitely be more mainstream examples. Of course overall acceptance is not there, but that's a different fight entirely.

 

[Embedded]

Nothing of those two.
I prefer leaving the writers free to create what they want.

 

[Hours Left]

this. if there's no valid reason for it, the playable character shouldn't be straight.

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👏👏👏👏👏

I'm so tired of low quality straight characters being included just to appeal to a certain demographic.

 

[travisbickle]

Should have made the lead in Days Gone gay. Would have killed two birds with one stone; would have made the story unique, and no gay guy would wear that stupid cap backwards.

 

[Fredrik]

Just make what's there great and don't just go for Hollywood stereotypes. I know one person who's gay in real life and he's less feminine than me. I want to see that side of the spectrum. Big manly men who loves men.

 

[timedesk]

This. Some games really block that hard intentionally with often very little reason to.
As you say, more overall representation would help. Sure would get more different perspectives into development.



Yep. Not to mention the publishers that have, for literal decades, pushed against any tiny hint of non-cishet stuff in games regardless how minute. People pretending that the force is about forcing devs to add it are so full of it, lying through their teeth. The pathetically low amount of non-cishet stuff in games was incredibly hard fought, usually by a lone queer dev. Anyone remember the Sim Tower protest easter egg? I sure do.




We know the push is hard the other way and still is. heck, we can't even give female characters boyfriends without goobergobbers freaking out, and there's always a push to make women more ~vulnerable~ and ~available~ for the presumedly male audience. Even the tomb raider reboot was designed around that entire concept, not about emphasizing with Lara or even identifying as her, but wanting to ~protect~ her. Because god forbid a player emphasize with a character that's not a straight dude.

Imagine Sekiro being designed about wanting to protect poor, vulnerable, shy Sekiro-chan while every animation played up his suffering with moans that sound oddly sexualized. Just imagine how weird that would feel. That's Tomb Raider.


Ultimately, the issue goes deeper though. Studios don't give queer devs spots usually, female devs have to work twice as hard to get to the same spot, and a good number of male devs oddly keep working hard to keep things that way. Some, like Jonathan Blow, are nowadays outright stating that women just don't have it.
The games industry is notoriously unsafe for non-straight guy people. Like, even the regular tech industry is better, much better in fact, and that industry already is considered bad for people that aren't cishet men. The games industry is notoriously bad. It's a vicious circle at this point:

Studios do their best to keep anything out of games that's not solely catering to guys, marketing solely caters to guys, platforms like steam see no issue with rape glorification (only with the backlash against it), devs loudly proclaim that women just aren't as good, and studios love hanging out non-male devs to catch the backlash from a reactionary crowd while the studio twiddles its thumbs.

So people that aren't straight guys have it harder to get anything that inspires us, or make stuff ourselves, so people don't see us, and argue there shouldn't be spots for us/we don't have it while marketing encourages the crowd to take games as guy-only and attack anyone else. No wonder gaming's so toxic. It's grown that way. Gaming didn't end up in this spot naturally.

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Just want to say this is a great post. This industry has a lot of systemic problems, and people saying that more queer people should create queer content are ignoring a lot of major problems in the business itself.

 

[Farmerboy]

it should be whatever the writers and directors wants

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100% this.

 

[Aters]

A quota would be the death of creativity.

 

[Yukari]

Depends on Dev ? i guess ?

 

[Deleted member 50658]

I am all for any LGBT in my games but something I am not for is forcing it on devs in quota. let everyone tell their story the way they want to tell it IMO and if that is a 100% straight or 100% not I really don't care as long as it is a good story.

 

[Deleted member 13250]

Just want to say this is a great post. This industry has a lot of systemic problems, and people saying that more queer people should create queer content are ignoring a lot of major problems in the business itself.

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I mean yea this is a pretty general problem in the industry. But it's not what I'm discussing at all. The point of the OP was just an ethical choice of proportional vs equal... Not saying it's irrelevant info but it seems a tertiary point and not what many others were discussing, or as you two say ignoring.

 

[Iztok]

they've got 40 years of almost nothing to make up for

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That's not how that works. In any comparable situation.
I really hope this isn't the mindset most of you on here have, because that would be frightening.
edit: I've read through the thread and I'm glad to see it isn't.

Proper representation in media should mean not shying away from telling meaningful stories with LGBT characters and encouraging creators to explore the subject, not calculating the proper percentage of one sort of people among every instance of the product on market.

Whatever that number turns out to then be, under these nurturing circumstances, is the correct number. WHATEVER it turns out to be!

 

[Deleted member 2652]

i don't know, maybe let's think about getting more diverse voices in the industry and less concern about too much diversity

 

[TFGB]

I'm sure one day we'll have truly dynamic storylines where your original choice in gender and sexuality will determine your entire journey through the game, not just at key points. It'd make for great replay value.

 

[Shini42]

I remember how angry some people were, when Dragon Age Inquisition offered fewer options in sex partners to players with certain orientation (gay men, if I remember correctly). It would be riots if representation will be proportional. Same thing with skin colour.

 

[kittens]

I think more than anything I want more queer developers making games so we can experience their unique perspectives and artistry. The characters will follow organically.

 

[Zero-ELEC]

make all video games gay. all of them.

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^

 

[RpgN]

I apologise in advance if this in any way sounds offending. That is not my intention.

When I read replies like characters should be 100% LGBT all the time by some posters, are you being serious? This way of talking sounds pretty intimidating and I'm talking from a perspective of a woman who is a minority (not white). I know the feeling of alienation and being forced to play as white male characters etc. So if it's a jaded response and being frustrated at the status quo, then I sympathise. But I also don't want it the other way around. Only LGBT content that doesn't represent me either. And so, to respond to the OP:

I'm interested in more games that explore LGBT content. Not only show struggles of being LGBT but show LGBT having fun and being the lead characters. With character creation games it should be mandatory to have choice all the time. But I don't want all the games to have only LGBT content because then I won't be able to relate and I'm already having a difficult time relating. I also think it's unfair and business wise not right to have 50% representation to make 10% of the audience happy.

Right now the representation is very minor. The representation doesn't need to be proportional. We have long ways to go and so much to improve. I am just worried about some of the members who sound extreme.

 

[electroaffe]

If we respect video games as art, then we should also respect artistic choices. But I want society to evolve enough to have a better representation of LGBT in all media.

It's a shame that we don't have any (?) gay male protagonists in AAA productions. It's always straight men or gay females or females without any sexual interest.

 

[Sign My Guestbook!]

I think the important thing is not to feel too bounded. Make whatever interests you, or that you feel is important. Heck, if it's something that doesn't exist today in any form, make science fiction. Ask "what if?" and see where it goes. Just be prepared to do any necessary research.

But if someone mentions LGBT being a majority in society? Ok, sure! What does that world look like? How does it function? What's the culture like?

Go for it. It's your story.

Of course, the scenario here is that this doesn't really happen at a large budget scale. It happens at indie budgets... and I have no idea what the answer is. It might be something solved by the passing of generations, of changing tidal waves of culture and ways of thinking, but we may be long gone by that point.

 

[Red Arremer]

I would like to live in a world where a big RPG series having one gay-specific romance doesn't get called "SJW pandering".
I would like to live in a world where LGBT+ characters weren't either completely irrelevant or serving one of the many tropes, some of which are very harmful (the incredibly homophobic predatory men like in Persona 5, flamboyant over the top gay characters, or the Bury Your Gays trope).
I would like to live in a world where the inclusion of, or even the discussion of including an LGBT+ character of any sort doesn't immediately cause people to go into a reactionary 'It's forced' or 'It doesn't serve the story!!'.
I would like to live in a world where the queer characters we do have are written well, and depicted as normal people, that exist, and have lives and can be relatable even to people that aren't of their orientation or gender identity.
I would like to live in a world where a kid that is struggling with their gender identity or sexuality can pick up a game with a hero that they can relate to, to show them that not only aren't they alone, but that people like them can be heroic and make the world a better place in their own right.
I would like to live in a world where my desire for more representation of the minorities I belong to, and the minorities whose back I have (such as PoC) don't get shut down on the grounds of flimsy excuses, while being constantly put into situations where we have to defend our own existence, and that we too would like to have a beloved character and hero to identify with, for a change.

 

[timedesk]

I mean yea this is a pretty general problem in the industry. But it's not what I'm discussing at all. The point of the OP was just an ethical choice of proportional vs equal... Not saying it's irrelevant info but it seems a tertiary point and not what many others were discussing, or as you two say ignoring.

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I appreciate your point. I mostly am trying to challenge the point that queer people should just wait for queer creators if they ever want to get meaningful representation in AAA games. I understand that it is slight off base from the central question of the thread, but I feel like that central question is also a little off base. Framing representation as a quota is an easy way to get people to view representation negatively. I'm honestly sorry if I strayed too far from the topic though.

 

[Deleted member 41271]

Just want to say this is a great post. This industry has a lot of systemic problems, and people saying that more queer people should create queer content are ignoring a lot of major problems in the business itself.

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Yep. It's not that easy. Things are never that easy.

A quota would be the death of creativity.

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We have a quota already. A straight quota of near 100%. This quota is mandated by publishers and marketing, and demanded by certain subsets of gamers.

And yes: It sure is the death of creativity. So why are you for keeping it up? Wouldn't breaking it be better, for creativity and all?