LTTP: KH2FM Data Battles - Fun as Hell, but KH3’s are superior.

Phendrift · Dec 28, 2020

So earlier this year I got the ReMIND DLC and something in me made me strive to beat the data battles in it, maybe to further justify the price since I at first wanted it for the story, despite normally being pretty ass at KH - and I LOVED them.

Well recently I hopped back into KH2FM, which I've previously beaten the main story on, and strived for it again since I was craving something like those. F

Well, 13 bosses down and here are my thoughts. To note: I did both on Level 99 normal.

- KH3's are way harder, they definitely require you to think about patterns more and know what to roll, guard and glide for. A couple of KH2's I beat on the first or second try however, these were Roxas and Xigbar - ironically two of the bosses that gave me trouble in the main story - so maybe I was used to their patterns? Which brings me to my next point
- KH3's data battles felt new, exquisitely designed and the culmination of each boss. That's kind of an upside of the main game being such a letdown - they had to design pretty much all new bosses. KH2's felt more... rehashy? KH2's are all unequivocally just harder versions of the org member fights in the main game, even down to the arena being copy pasted. I think this is a reason I preferred KH3 - they didn't go all out because they were working with something already in the main game.
- There seemed to be more "gimmicks" in KH2's, like Demyx's Water Clones, Axel's Fire Floor, Vexen's anti-sora
- Lastly, KH2's felt more exploitable thanks to forms. I switched to final form during Vexen to restore health and MP and just attacked him in it and he went down easily. I didn't wanna arbitrarily limit myself into not using forms, and I didn't use them a LOT, but definitely a couple of times they trivialized the bosses.

so yes. I know this sounds negative but I still loved them, mainly a positive thread for how much the series has improved

Farrac · Dec 28, 2020

I agree, OP. What a wonderful problem to have tho.

s y · Dec 28, 2020

For me at least, KH3 can't compare to 2 because the gameplay mechanics simply aren't as good. Movement isn't as fun, combos aren't as fun and drive forms >>>>> reaction commands.

Kh3's data bosses may very well be better designed but I just don't enjoy the combat nearly as much.

Richietto · Dec 28, 2020

Yeah they are a step up to the already fantastic KH2 datafights.

Rommaz · Dec 28, 2020

KH2's are brought down by Luxord, Demyx and Zexion. The only one which messes up KH3's is Luxord

Deleted member 864 · Dec 28, 2020

Yeah, I'd agree. Some of the fights in 2 just aren't fun to fight while there were maybe only one or two battles in 3's that I actively disliked.

SrirachaX · Dec 28, 2020

Phendrift said:
- KH3's are way harder, they definitely require you to think about patterns more and know what to roll, guard and glide for. A couple of KH2's I beat on the first or second try however, these were Roxas and Xigbar - ironically two of the bosses that gave me trouble in the main story - so maybe I was used to their patterns? Which brings me to my next point

I think this is more subjective since you mention you beat these at lvl 99 Normal which I'd argue you could get by any fight by mashing attack and healing when low; having burned through the data fights on Critical (and the main game on a level 1 Critical playthrough) I can easily say that learning patterns and knowing what to dodge and such is very much a thing in KH2FM. Funny enough main story Roxas and Xigbar were responsible for the most deaths in my level 1 playthrough lol

Phendrift said:
- KH3's data battles felt new, exquisitely designed and the culmination of each boss. That's kind of an upside of the main game being such a letdown - they had to design pretty much all new bosses. KH2's felt more... rehashy? KH2's are all unequivocally just harder versions of the org member fights in the main game, even down to the arena being copy pasted. I think this is a reason I preferred KH3 - they didn't go all out because they were working with something already in the main game.

I agree, but keep in mind that the Roxas and Chain of Memories Organization fights were new to KH2FM (vanilla didn't have those) so not everything is a rehash

Phendrift said:
- There seemed to be more "gimmicks" in KH2's, like Demyx's Water Clones, Axel's Fire Floor, Vexen's anti-sora

Much like Xion's armor stuff, Saix's berserk meter (both games), the entirety of Luxord's fight (both games), Yung 'Nort's timestop, higher emphasis on unblockables in KH3, etc.

Phendrift said:
- Lastly, KH2's felt more exploitable thanks to forms. I switched to final form during Vexen to restore health and MP and just attacked him in it and he went down easily. I didn't wanna arbitrarily limit myself into not using forms, and I didn't use them a LOT, but definitely a couple of times they trivialized the bosses.

Yeah you can absolutely dunk on bosses with forms lol; I had to give in on some fights and use Limit Form to cheese through the last few bars

Phendrift said:
so yes. I know this sounds negative but I still loved them, mainly a positive thread for how much the series has improved

Hell yeah, the KH2 data fights are awesome but damn the KH3 ones moved what was a high bar even higher

Soriku · Dec 28, 2020

KH2 data fights are good and KH2 has great combat mechanics, but KH3 takes things to the next level. KH3 data fights shit all over KH2 in terms of boss patterns, difficulty, uniqueness, and spectacle. Meanwhile some (not all) fights in KH2 are basically rehashed.

Phendrift · Dec 28, 2020

SrirachaX said:
I think this is more subjective since you mention you beat these at lvl 99 Normal which I'd argue you could get by any fight by mashing attack and healing when low; having burned through the data fights on Critical (and the main game on a level 1 Critical playthrough) I can easily say that learning patterns and knowing what to dodge and such is very much a thing in KH2FM. Funny enough main story Roxas and Xigbar were responsible for the most deaths in my level 1 playthrough lol

I agree, but keep in mind that the Roxas and Chain of Memories Organization fights were new to KH2FM (vanilla didn't have those) so not everything is a rehash

Much like Xion's armor stuff, Saix's berserk meter (both games), the entirety of Luxord's fight (both games), Yung 'Nort's timestop, higher emphasis on unblockables in KH3, etc.

Yeah you can absolutely dunk on bosses with forms lol; I had to give in on some fights and use Limit Form to cheese through the last few bars

Hell yeah, the KH2 data fights are awesome but damn the KH3 ones moved what was a high bar even higher

Yeah maybe there were some gimmicks I was forgetting in KH3, but it was mainly Demyx's water forms that pissed me off into saying that. Having to kill 99 at the very end or restarting was annoying as hell

And you can definitely NOT button mash on normal trust me 😭 the main advantage in figuring is being able to survive longer and figure out patterns but you really can't button mashing you do have to learn. Unless like I said you spam forms lol.

I mean it has been nearly a year but I still will stick to KH3 boss patterns being more... involved? complex? I'm not sure. Like Roxas who I remember being notoriously hard for me, once I tried a couple of times, I realized he didn't have too many attacks or complex ones. He was just punishing if you messed up. Axel also stood out as not having too much going on with the fire floor being the big issue there.

I remember for KH3's you had to figure out lots of patterns that would require more intricate dodging combos like "roll, roll, guard, roll, guard" or something or else youre fucked like Xemnas DM. Never really got that in KH2's.

Homura · Dec 28, 2020

The KH3's Data Battles are better designed but I didn't really enjoy them as KH2's because I don't really like the gameplay.
KH2 will always remain the top action gameplay for me.

Z-Beat · Dec 28, 2020

Yeah I'd have to agree. KH3's are more creative and the added mechanics make for more interesting fights overall

Soriku · Dec 28, 2020

I don't even remember having too much trouble with KH2's fights for the most part. Pretty much all of the fights in KH3 gave me the business.

Phendrift · Dec 28, 2020

Now I will say I'm on Lingering Will and this is the closest I've felt to KH3's data fights lol. Slowly learning his patterns though

Viale · Dec 28, 2020

Kh2 data bosses are really fun bosses with some truly great ones in there imo. KH3 data fights(+ secret boss) are like legimately GOAT tier though.

Also, there is no feeling greater than unleashing a combo and then using air step to follow up for a few more hits in kh3. It feels amazing and how warp strikes in FF XV should have felt. I adore Kh2 and it pales to that feeling imo.

PspLikeANut · Dec 28, 2020

s y said:
For me at least, KH3 can't compare to 2 because the gameplay mechanics simply aren't as good. Movement isn't as fun, combos aren't as fun and drive forms >>>>> reaction commands.

Kh3's data bosses may very well be better designed but I just don't enjoy the combat nearly as much.

This post hits the nail on the head. The movement in the game was the first thing that was jarring. Felt Completely off when compared to kh2. The turn rate is way off for Sora.

Lozange · Dec 28, 2020

Big agree on remind's data battles being better. They taught me how to play KH2 better in a way that actual KH2 never did, even on critical. (I did a KH2 replay recently. I platinumed the game for the first time! Never would have happened if I didn't learn via remind that block is in fact still pretty good, and you don't need reflect as much as I thought. Really made the game that much more enjoyable)
Also I'm shallow and each remind data battle having its own music theme is pretty great.

Deleted member 80231 · Dec 28, 2020

I know I may be in the minority here, but I watched most of the KH3 data battles and, while they looked amazing as a viewer, I felt like they're the opposite of what I like in a boss fight. Most of those feel like you're seeing the enemy doing cool stuff 75% of the time, and you're the one that gets to do something on really small windows and until the revenge values are filled.

Some bosses in KH2 worked like that as well, so I didn't enjoy all the Data Battles in that game either. I personally prefer fights being a back and forth between you and the enemy, but I can see how some people enjoy learning those attack patterns and perfecting long chains of blocks, rolls and glides.

SrirachaX · Dec 28, 2020

Phendrift said:
Yeah maybe there were some gimmicks I was forgetting in KH3, but it was mainly Demyx's water forms that pissed me off into saying that. Having to kill 99 at the very end or restarting was annoying as hell

And you can definitely NOT button mash on normal trust me 😭 the main advantage in figuring is being able to survive longer and figure out patterns but you really can't button mashing you do have to learn. Unless like I said you spam forms lol.

I mean it has been nearly a year but I still will stick to KH3 boss patterns being more... involved? complex? I'm not sure. Like Roxas who I remember being notoriously hard for me, once I tried a couple of times, I realized he didn't have too many attacks or complex ones. He was just punishing if you messed up. Axel also stood out as not having too much going on with the fire floor being the big issue there.

I remember for KH3's you had to figure out lots of patterns that would require more intricate dodging combos like "roll, roll, guard, roll, guard" or something or else youre fucked like Xemnas DM. Never really got that in KH2's.

I feel that, Demyx is stupid in that you pretty much have to burn a form like Wisdom just to get past it. Losing to that has Sora crossing his arms on the Game Over screen which like him agreeing with you that it's BS

And my bad, I'm just so used to Critical that I feel like any easier difficulty would boil down to mashing. Even with Second Chance you have plenty of pressure on you to not get hit since you have half the health in other modes and take double damage compared to Normal. But after thinking about the two games I'm with you on that KH3's patterns were more crazy. Me and my buddy were passing off the controller as we were going through the data fights and we'd be like "yeah for this character's DM I dodged this, dodged that, roll that, glide here." We spent like 6-8 hours on some fights like Master Xehanort, Saix, and Terranort because we kept experimenting with what to block/dodge with and trying to fish for openings

Speaking of patterns, fuck Data Riku for saying screw them and just going absolutely crazy lmao (love the fight though)

Phendrift · Dec 28, 2020

RaulCEJ said:
I know I may be in the minority here, but I watched most of the KH3 data battles and, while they looked amazing as a viewer, I felt like they're the opposite of what I like in a boss fight. Most of those feel like you're seeing the enemy doing cool stuff 75% of the time, and you're the one that gets to do something on really small windows and until the revenge values are filled.

Some bosses in KH2 worked like that as well, so I didn't enjoy all the Data Battles in that game either. I personally prefer fights being a back and forth between you and the enemy, but I can see how some people enjoy learning those attack patterns and perfecting long chains of blocks, rolls and glides.

I can see where you're coming from but a lot of the times dodging in KH3 at the right time made me feel so cool, like avoiding Xemnas 1000 laser DM.

Chumunga64 · Dec 28, 2020

s y said:
For me at least, KH3 can't compare to 2 because the gameplay mechanics simply aren't as good. Movement isn't as fun, combos aren't as fun and drive forms >>>>> reaction commands.

Kh3's data bosses may very well be better designed but I just don't enjoy the combat nearly as much.

yup

Kinsei · Dec 28, 2020

KH3's data bosses and secret episode boss are legitimately some of the best action game bosses in the medium. KH2's may not live up to that level, but they're still really damn good.

Phendrift · Dec 28, 2020

SrirachaX said:
I feel that, Demyx is stupid in that you pretty much have to burn a form like Wisdom just to get past it. Losing to that has Sora crossing his arms on the Game Over screen which like him agreeing with you that it's BS

And my bad, I'm just so used to Critical that I feel like any easier difficulty would boil down to mashing. Even with Second Chance you have plenty of pressure on you to not get hit since you have half the health in other modes and take double damage compared to Normal. But after thinking about the two games I'm with you on that KH3's patterns were more crazy. Me and my buddy were passing off the controller as we were going through the data fights and we'd be like "yeah for this character's DM I dodged this, dodged that, roll that, glide here." We spent like 6-8 hours on some fights like Master Xehanort, Saix, and Terranort because we kept experimenting with what to block/dodge with and trying to fish for openings

Speaking of patterns, fuck Data Riku for saying screw them and just going absolutely crazy lmao (love the fight though)

Yeah I think we're in agreement, I definitely wasn't saying you didn't have to look for patterns in KH2, just that KH3's were more complex. Worded it badly.

Like I feel like I barely had to dodge roll. This could be due to KH2 not having dodge roll originally, so half the fights weren't originally built with it in mind. In KH3 I had to do like combos of roll, guard, glide. All felt important and it felt cool to figure it out because then you're like "so THATS what the devs wanted"

This also may be hard to explain but KH3 also emphasized more on timing. Like in KH2 if you timed your first guard right when the boss is doing a long combo, if you keep mashing guard you should be good for most cases (Xemnas first phase comes to mind with that long saber attack). I feel like they really took steps to avoid that in 3. There's many long attacks where you have to keep being engaged beyond that first guard and continue to get the right timing or you'll be fucked. Like guard pause guard guard pause guard then counter (just made that up to show the concept)

And yeah agreed on Dark Riku. That was probably the sole boss in KH3 that I felt like I didn't have to learn fully. It was just all out chaos and I went for an opening whenever I saw it and it worked out. They probably gave him more openings because of how even more chaotic and fast paced it was lol.

King Kingo · Dec 28, 2020

The KH3 Data Battles felt like a better sendoff to the Xehanort Saga than the story’s ending itself, and not just because they’re amazing bosses.

I actually like KH3’s ending more than most, but I do agree it felt kinda of rushed in that you were fighting most of the villains in groups of three and they went down easily. But for a variety of reasons, the Data Battles felt like a more proper send off and finale to the Xehanort Saga for...

www.resetera.com

Phendrift · Dec 28, 2020

Alpha Baymax said:
The KH3 Data Battles felt like a better sendoff to the Xehanort Saga than the story’s ending itself, and not just because they’re amazing bosses.

I actually like KH3’s ending more than most, but I do agree it felt kinda of rushed in that you were fighting most of the villains in groups of three and they went down easily. But for a variety of reasons, the Data Battles felt like a more proper send off and finale to the Xehanort Saga for...

www.resetera.com

my thread :P but yes!

King Kingo · Dec 28, 2020

Phendrift said:
my thread :P but yes!

Oh, I know. I suppose it's a testament to how good ReMind really is.

Phendrift · Dec 28, 2020

Alpha Baymax said:
Oh, I know. I suppose it's a testament to how good ReMind really is.

Yeah that thread was mainly focusing on the entire package of the Limit Cut bosses because I thought everything about them was so well done.

This one mainly focusing on the mechanics in comparison to 2FM since I just wrapped those up. But still yeah, I can't praise them enough as evidenced by these two threads lol.

AIan · Dec 28, 2020

KH3's data battles are so so fun! I had to go through them twice. Well, not a full second time, only enough to get the DLC trophy. Played them on Crtitical and man is it fast-paced. The battles are just on a completely different level compared to the rest of the game.

Soriku · Dec 28, 2020

RaulCEJ said:
I know I may be in the minority here, but I watched most of the KH3 data battles and, while they looked amazing as a viewer, I felt like they're the opposite of what I like in a boss fight. Most of those feel like you're seeing the enemy doing cool stuff 75% of the time, and you're the one that gets to do something on really small windows and until the revenge values are filled.

Some bosses in KH2 worked like that as well, so I didn't enjoy all the Data Battles in that game either. I personally prefer fights being a back and forth between you and the enemy, but I can see how some people enjoy learning those attack patterns and perfecting long chains of blocks, rolls and glides.

All these bosses have a lot of openings so you can still counter them pretty often. Not to mention despite the difficulty these fights are all designed to be beaten within a couple minutes, which means you're not sitting there forever waiting for openings.

CornbreadMuffin · Dec 28, 2020

s y said:
For me at least, KH3 can't compare to 2 because the gameplay mechanics simply aren't as good. Movement isn't as fun, combos aren't as fun and drive forms >>>>> reaction commands.

Kh3's data bosses may very well be better designed but I just don't enjoy the combat nearly as much.

Completely agree. I would also say that many of the non-final bosses/non-data bosses are inferior to many of those in KH2 and more so rely on the spectacle of the boss being very large. KH3 is a great, fun game, but combat isn't as good as that in 2 IMO.

Deleted member 34949 · Dec 28, 2020

I personally prefer KH3's Data battles, though (most of) KH2FM's are great, too.

I think what I like most about KH3's Data battles is that they don't waste your time. There's not a lot of sitting and waiting around to take some kind of action (As opposed to dumb shit like Data Vexen's desperation move or just having to wait out Saix's berserker attacks until you can snipe him with a reaction command), and the desperation moves in addition to being snappy and to the point (for the most part), usually have some sort of way to either shorten it, shut it down outright, or in some cases even blow them up for a straight up opening.

The only data battles in KH2FM I can even stomach replaying these days are Marluxia, Roxas, Xemnas, Lexaeus and Larxene (and occasionally Xigbar). The other ones are just too loaded with gimmicks that bog down the fights for me.

Phendrift said:
And yeah agreed on Dark Riku. That was probably the sole boss in KH3 that I felt like I didn't have to learn fully. It was just all out chaos and I went for an opening whenever I saw it and it worked out. They probably gave him more openings because of how even more chaotic and fast paced it was lol.

Riku felt like so much bullshit at first, but the fight got so much easier to understand once someone pointed out to me that the placement of his mines (or in some circumstances, the lack of them altogether), dictate what attack he's going to use, and he might honestly be the only Limit Cut boss where literally every attack in his moveset (Including his desperation move) has a potential full combo opening. Tbh, his AI not being as scripted actually made it feel like a KH2FM fight more than any other boss out of that batch.

Kurtikeya · Dec 28, 2020

It's amazing how far they've come from Mysterious Figure.

Phendrift · Dec 28, 2020

Now I just beat Lingering Will!

Definitely hard, however the only thing I didn't really learn was the final part of his DM (thank you second chance) proud of myself for that, I learned how to get a combo in with every move he did otherwise. I'm assuming he's worse in critical but still, every attack did so much damage holy shit. Even at level 99.

I was so scared doing such small damage, but then I realized I could get a second more powerful combo in. Only switched forms once (Final and it knocked out one health bar).

I also think it depends how he starts. From what I could tell depending on what attack he started with, that set the tone for the whole first phase of the battle no? The best to manage were the charging forward combo and the air slash combo. I could exploit those pretty easily. The worst were the cannon and the command steal (seriously FUCK him taking Attack)

WhiskerFrisker · Dec 28, 2020

You try beating Roxas KH2FM on critical first try to see if it's easy or not

Deleted member 34949 · Dec 28, 2020

Phendrift said:
Now I just beat Lingering Will!

Definitely hard, however the only thing I didn't really learn was the final part of his DM (thank you second chance) proud of myself for that, I learned how to get a combo in with every move he did otherwise. I'm assuming he's worse in critical but still, every attack did so much damage holy shit. Even at level 99.

I was so scared doing such small damage, but then I realized I could get a second more powerful combo in. Only switched forms once (Final and it knocked out one health bar).

I also think it depends how he starts. From what I could tell depending on what attack he started with, that set the tone for the whole first phase of the battle no? The best to manage were the charging forward combo and the air slash combo. I could exploit those pretty easily. The worst were the cannon and the command steal (seriously FUCK him taking Attack)

I feel like he's easier on Critical than Proud purely because the damage boost makes the fight go by quicker. LW has a sort of super defense buffer where you do more damage the closer you get to his revenge value, so those initial few hits not doing much definitely intimidates a lot of people at first.

The cannon is probably my favorite opening since it's really easy to just block it and get free damage. His gauntlet melee combo is probably the worst opening since it's really difficult to block it on reaction even if you happen to guess right that it's coming.

Lemony1984 · Dec 28, 2020

I need to go back to the KH3 battles.kinda bummed my only save is on Proud mode. I was able to spam my way through all of them except Master Xehanort so I stopped there. Probably should just learn how to play properly.

WrenchNinja · Dec 28, 2020

Im still annoyed that reviewers didnt even give these a chance. So much work went into these bosses.

Arkanim94 · Dec 29, 2020

Tbf, comparing the two is a little unfair.
Kh 2 data fights are simply the story fight with better stat and faster and more relentless attacks.
Kh 3 data fights are brand new fights each on the level of KH 2 lingering will.

sans luxord.

Rellyrell28 · Dec 29, 2020

s y said:
For me at least, KH3 can't compare to 2 because the gameplay mechanics simply aren't as good. Movement isn't as fun, combos aren't as fun and drive forms >>>>> reaction commands.

Kh3's data bosses may very well be better designed but I just don't enjoy the combat nearly as much.

I definitely in the opposite thought on this cause of the tool in 3 like air stepping to close distance on some of the enemies, the counter attacks and air blocking. For me the only thing that KH2 has over 3 in terms of combat is the reaction commands.

RROCKMAN · Dec 29, 2020

I still love how the lingering will actually mixes up openings just to mess with you

Still my all time favorite superboss

Noctis · Dec 29, 2020

I wanna play it but that dlc never goes on sale

Rellyrell28 · Dec 29, 2020

RROCKMAN said:
I still love how the lingering will actually mixes up openings just to mess with you

Still my all time favorite superboss

Secret boss in Re:Mind not only does that but even can start out with his DM

TradedHats · Dec 29, 2020

WrenchNinja said:
Im still annoyed that reviewers didnt even give these a chance. So much work went into these bosses.

Yup, it's unfortunate that it's been largely overlooked by everyone that isn't heavily invested in KH already. It's somewhat understandable since it's a DLC to a long-running series, but with how good these battles are, one would hope word of that would reach at least some publication's ears.

Rellyrell28 said:
Secret boss in Re:Mind not only does that but even can start out with his DM

Whenever that would happen:

Rellyrell28 · Dec 29, 2020

iverdawg said:
Whenever that would happen:

Funny thing is that once I learned how to handle his DM he never did it from the beginning again.

LTTP: KH2FM Data Battles - Fun as Hell, but KH3’s are superior.

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