EzekelRAGE

Member
Nov 3, 2017
16,356
Conspiracy Rage : what if stan had multiple scum on his kill list.

Doing the kill silently would throw too much suspicion on the list.

So scum cc "sloppily" claims the kill.
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,528
São Paulo, Brazil
You quoted a list from before Stanley was voted in and before Faddy's list. As Stanley worked down people, Faddy seemed to have too. Stanley was not looking at malus after he was elected and again, neither were you, pushing him wouldn't have mattered

And no, Natiko responded and doesn't seem to agree, Monkey responded and doesn't seem to agree. Stop trying to pretend it's just me on an island here.

Yes, he clearly assumed people would understand what the graph was and he had to explain it but that wasn't exactly a new read from him (in terms of the vote on Bae) and what you linked there was new reasoning, he didn't really backpedal from his old reasoning. That vote is shit because votes were stuck that day but it's only crazy in retrospect because Bae is claiming cop now, at the time it was as good as any out there. No one was claimed right then.
This is you today, Sorian:

gIGxKOG.jpg


I just hope you're really malus' scummate and not just completely lost town, defending and downplaying arguments against someone you haven't even posted a real read of so far for no real reason. Because no matter how long it takes, they'll get to you after malus flips.
 
OP
OP
The Bear

The Bear

Forest Animal
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
4,214
==== DAY 4 VOTES ====
Day Start

malus (3 votes)
rac - #3,957 #4,117
fandorin - #4,159
rac - #4,212
brazil - #4,231

brazil (2 votes)
ezekelrage - #4,218
fluxwavez - #4,220

fandorin (2 votes)
fluxwavez - #3,902 #3,963
sorian - #3,907
fantomas - #3,912 #3,992
sawneeks - #3,913
fluxwavez - #3,965 #3,999

sawneeks (1 votes)
natiko - #3,921

sorian (1 votes)
blargonaut - #4,020
ezekelrage - #4,188 #4,218

rac (0 votes)
rac - #4,117 #4,212

ezekelrage (0 votes)
brazil - #3,896 #3,991

fluxwavez (0 votes)
brazil - #3,991 #4,231
fantomas - #3,992 #4,141

ceecee (0 votes)
ezekelrage - #3,893 #4,188

Post Counts:
ezekelrage: 48 sorian: 41 fantomas: 37 brazil: 34 fluxwavez: 34 fandorin: 33 dr. monkey: 25 blargonaut: 18 natiko: 16 rac: 12 fran: 11 kyanrute: 10 sawneeks: 10 grizzly: 6 pirate bae: 6 malus: 6 fireblend: 5 lone_prodigy: 3 ceecee: 2 absolutbro: 2

Click here to go to the Vote Tool!
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,528
São Paulo, Brazil
My townread of Fandorin has nothing to do with you, malus. This dynamic that "there must be two scum in those three trains" is Sorian's fabrication.
 

Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
This is you today, Sorian:

gIGxKOG.jpg


I just hope you're really malus' scummate and not just completely lost town, defending and downplaying arguments against someone you haven't even posted a real read of so far for no real reason. Because no matter how long it takes, they'll get to you after malus flips.


Clearly I'm not since the defense was "moving goal posts, hope you aren't actually this dumb"
 

Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
My townread of Fandorin has nothing to do with you, malus. This dynamic that "there must be two scum in those three trains" is Sorian's fabrication.

Except Fandorin seems to agree, it's just he's obviously coming to the other conclusion that it's malus. You are even voting malus so you think the same thing.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
This doesn't seem like a fair way to start things off. How many accusations are players allowed to bring up early on in a day phase before we hit the threshold and subsequent accusations stop being valid because there were others that "needed to be discussed"? This already makes it perfectly clear that you're not going into this ISO with an open mind.
I'm not searching you. I'm looking at the votes on malus. You happened to start the train and then I had to go to a meeting.
Yeah, it was 7-5-5 because Faddy himself removed a vote from malus and caused a second place tie. If he stays put it's 7-6 and yeah, I agree he probably still gets lynched but a one vote diffference allows more bullshit to happen. He let himself fall into position where he was the lone lynch proposition.
And gee, I wonder why he put himself into that position and then "claimed early so there'd be time to discuss."
 

Pirate Bae

Edelgard Feet Appreciator
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
6,806
??
That's fair, I guess; iirc you helped lynch me in my first game for not knowing how to play. :P #neverforget But after yesterday, I think either of those would be a better choice. c'est la vie anyway unless we find the roleblocker, since apparently they don't have to alternate targets.

#goodtimes

But seriously, it may have been a better choice to check either one of them, sure. I understand that. I just find you a hard read and I'm trying to rule out strong players as suspects.

Tbh if yesterday's vote was a 2-way scum bus between Faddy and someone else, and they knew Faddy was a bomb, they would have jumped ship to Faddy before being the last vote. Fran and I talked about this in our boat before Grizzly sunk it.

So today, I'd like to look at Monkey, Sawneeks, Natiko, Brazil. Malus voted for Faddy after the hammer, so I think it's safe to assume he didn't know about the bomb, else he wouldn't have risked becoming collateral damage. The others voted at just the right time to jump on the Faddy bus, without being affected by his role.

If I missed it, I apologize. Why did you guys vote the way you did?
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,528
São Paulo, Brazil
Clearly I'm not since the defense was "moving goal posts, hope you aren't actually this dumb"
"malus wasn't in Stan's interest"

*Stan listed malus in his kill list*

giphy.gif


"How was malus' vote absurd?"

*It was locked in, he had to explain it, Faddy defended him, he backed down from it in his next post (yes, he literally said "it makes me kind of question my scum read of her" immediately after making his vote for the day)*

That vote is shit because votes were stuck that day but it's only crazy in retrospect because Bae is claiming cop now, at the time it was as good as any out there.

gIGxKOG.jpg


"It's only crazy in retrospect". It's almost as if looking at things in retrospect is literally what we're supposed to do to find scum.

Also, no, it wasn't only crazy in retrospect since, as already stated, multiple people called him out for it.
 

Fandorin

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
If I flip town, would you reconsider your town read of Brazil?
Brazil If I flip town, would you reconsider your town read of Fandorin

Not really, no. I'm the one really pushing for you, so if I'm wrong that's completely on me.
Except Fandorin seems to agree, it's just he's obviously coming to the other conclusion that it's malus. You are even voting malus so you think the same thing.
It is a point worth considering, especially since Faddy left malus wagon just before fake claiming and a his scum flip would make a lot of sense. But that's just a point in my case against him. My main gripe is the Faddy x malus interacions on D1, which is a giant red flag to me. I also voted for him on D3 and I meant it.
 

Fanto

Is this tag ok?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,863
Tbh if yesterday's vote was a 2-way scum bus between Faddy and someone else, and they knew Faddy was a bomb, they would have jumped ship to Faddy before being the last vote. Fran and I talked about this in our boat before Grizzly sunk it.

So today, I'd like to look at Monkey, Sawneeks, Natiko, Brazil. Malus voted for Faddy after the hammer, so I think it's safe to assume he didn't know about the bomb, else he wouldn't have risked becoming collateral damage. The others voted at just the right time to jump on the Faddy bus, without being affected by his role.
Monkey gave me her thoughts on the votes earlier because I was also going down this road in my mind, so I asked her.
I'll say two things about votes:
D2 votes are almost useless. I know people want to look at D2 but reads there are good, votes bad. Fran jerking around the override promise made a lot of people lock in early who would have shifted later. D3 and today are when we will see real good vote data. And D3 every vote after the counter claim is indeterminate and votes that moved during Faddy's claim are indeterminate, probably. It's a fucking mess and I'd bet ten shiny golden dollars that was part of the strategy. Push a counterwagon, fuck up the votes, lure out the doctor, explode. Frankly, I side eye everyone who was on malus in general but I'm also saying that fully acknowledging I'm biased. Brazil may be okay there, Natiko may be okay there, possibly Febe, but Fandorin, rac, and obviously Faddy look bad on the malus vote. As for the Faddy/Fandorin votes... I think we'll know more about who went where and why after today.
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167

Thanks. I remember that chat being amazing, with all the fire puns.


Our views do align. I haven't shared a full reads list today, but besides his case on Flux and a bit on Natiko, I share most of his town and scum reads and we actually developed them together in our chat.

I'm not talking about your reads, I'm talking about my reads on both of you. I'm scum reading you because how Turmoil played D1 and how the vote went D3. I'm scum reading Brazil because how he reacted to the counter claim D2 and when he changed his vote to Faddy D3.

One read is not related to the other to me.

im sorry but this is just a horrible argument
afraid of a bomb that i would know about...

I'm scum reading you because how you tried to change your vote to Flux D2. The bomb thing is just something that makes me think that I'm not wrong in my original read (which I already shared yesterday).
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Tbh if yesterday's vote was a 2-way scum bus between Faddy and someone else, and they knew Faddy was a bomb, they would have jumped ship to Faddy before being the last vote. Fran and I talked about this in our boat before Grizzly sunk it.

So today, I'd like to look at Monkey, Sawneeks, Natiko, Brazil. Malus voted for Faddy after the hammer, so I think it's safe to assume he didn't know about the bomb, else he wouldn't have risked becoming collateral damage. The others voted at just the right time to jump on the Faddy bus, without being affected by his role.
I think this is a good point on malus and I have a post of his that I think should move the needle more closely to town despite all the people trying to use it to scumread him. I'll post that when I'm done looking at the votes on him.

As for me, I mentioned this last phase but I'd actually moved to Faddy to see if Fandorin would react. I posted about it at the time in game and more in our boat, but after Fandorin's hole-filled read on Faddy I wanted to try to bait a reaction. In fact, here's some of what I said there:

It makes me wonder if we should flip Faddy first to see what Fandorin would do. Or at least put votes there to see if he reacts/how he reacts.
^^This is also why I asked about majority.

But then claimfest #2 happened and there was all of that.

Anyway, I want to finish these checks into the malus votes yesterday. I'm on Nat now.
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,528
São Paulo, Brazil
Except Fandorin seems to agree, it's just he's obviously coming to the other conclusion that it's malus. You are even voting malus so you think the same thing.
Clearly. All of this is born of your great hypothesis that there were two scum in those two trains. Fand agrees with it, and so do I.

Let's just completely ignore the fact that we literally juts spent about three pages bringing up arguments that go as far back as D1 pointing out how bad malus looks with Faddy's flip in mind.

All arguments that you promptly tried to dismiss with lies ("malus wasn't in Stan's interest") or with backpedalling ("yeah, that was weird, but only in hindsight").

It's very clear at this point that you're just going to defend malus, someone you haven't posted a read of, and try to create a smokescreen to delay his lynch. You're twisting around so much that you're tripping on your own arguments.

Even if you can get people like Flux and Zeke to clap around to your shameless misdirections today, you won't be able to escape this tangled mess you've just made once Fand and I aren't here anymore to serve as your scapegoats.
 

Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
"malus wasn't in Stan's interest"

*Stan listed malus in his kill list*

giphy.gif


"How was malus' vote absurd?"

*It was locked in, he had to explain it, Faddy defended him, he backed down from it in his next post (yes, he literally said "it makes me kind of question my scum read of her" immediately after making his vote for the day)*



gIGxKOG.jpg


"It's only crazy in retrospect". It's almost as if looking at things in retrospect is literally what we're supposed to do to find scum.

Also, no, it wasn't only crazy in retrospect since, as already stated, multiple people called him out for it.

I'm not sayin anything was different in terms of the lists. Stan dropped malus, Faddy dropped malus, Stan died, you weren't reading malus, why would Faddy put a lost cause vote back on his list if he already dropped it?

And yeah, I'm terms of the Bae vote, you read things in retrospect like scum movements and votes, trying to go back and say this vote was bad because we now know the person was likely town is useless. It's not actively defending scum because it looks like turmoil was the only scum in the running around then and votes were so spread because of Fran's threat and the claims hadn't started.
 

rac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,149
I'm scum reading you because how you tried to change your vote to Flux D2. The bomb thing is just something that makes me think that I'm not wrong in my original read (which I already shared yesterday).

coming up with a horrible argument to support scum reading me, congrats on being wrong
 

Fanto

Is this tag ok?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,863
I also voted for him [malus] on D3 and I meant it.
But then I must ask, why didn't you ever consider voting for Faddy instead?

I remember you went over him and came to the conclusion that you saw him as being Townie. But the same things you were pointing out were the same things that people like myself, Fran, Flux, Monkey, Sorian, and probably others had all commented on as well, but in a way where we concluded that it made him look scummy, not townie. Like, I don't want to get on you for being wrong on your read, that's obviously not a big deal, it's just the way in which you presented all of those things and came away with the exact opposite conclusion so many others (including Confirmed Town) were. It reads a little unnatural to me I guess, and you did say at the end there that you can see why people want to lynch him, and also you were linking Malus with Faddy if he flips Scum, even though you are saying he's Townie to you.
 

Sorian

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
9,964
Clearly. All of this is born of your great hypothesis that there were two scum in those two trains. Fand agrees with it, and so do I.

Let's just completely ignore the fact that we literally juts spent about three pages bringing up arguments that go as far back as D1 pointing out how bad malus looks with Faddy's flip in mind.

All arguments that you promptly tried to dismiss with lies ("malus wasn't in Stan's interest") or with backpedalling ("yeah, that was weird, but only in hindsight").

It's very clear at this point that you're just going to defend malus, someone you haven't posted a read of, and try to create a smokescreen to delay his lynch. You're twisting around so much that you're tripping on your own arguments.

Even if you can get people like Flux and Zeke to clap around to your shameless misdirections today, you won't be able to escape this tangled mess you've just made once Fand and I aren't here anymore to serve as your scapegoats.

You can arrive at that vote however you want, if you think malus is scum, then you think there were two scum in the running yesterday, this isn't rocket science, you D1 logic doesn't exist independent of yesterday's votes.

Also, shame on me for having an evolving understanding in the game state, what even is that link supposed to tell me. I'm aware that I don't understand Faddy's reasonings exactly, I expected to come into the game today with two kills as the explanation and that didn't happen. Ket should have protected herself last night by all accounts but she died which indicates a strong kill but if a strong kill exists, why not just kill the cop immediately. Either she's lying or they really content keeping their own roleblocker locked down. The answer to that sheds a lot of light of why's faddy did what he did but I don't have that info so I have to let that sit and still continue, I'm sure as shit not testing Bae at this point for no reason to solve that.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
But then I must ask, why didn't you ever consider voting for Faddy instead?

I remember you went over him and came to the conclusion that you saw him as being Townie. But the same things you were pointing out were the same things that people like myself, Fran, Flux, Monkey, Sorian, and probably others had all commented on as well, but in a way where we concluded that it made him look scummy, not townie. Like, I don't want to get on you for being wrong on your read, that's obviously not a big deal, it's just the way in which you presented all of those things and came away with the exact opposite conclusion so many others (including Confirmed Town) were. It reads a little unnatural to me I guess, and you did say at the end there that you can see why people want to lynch him, and also you were linking Malus with Faddy if he flips Scum, even though you are saying he's Townie to you.
THANK YOU
 

FluxWaveZ

Persona Central
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
10,902
Even if you can get people like Flux and Zeke to clap around to your shameless misdirections today, you won't be able to escape this tangled mess you've just made once Fand and I aren't here anymore to serve as your scapegoats.
Similar to:
Your reasoning was weak. Add Geno, cabot, flux, Fran and a few others who seemed happy to follow Sorian's read and look busy little scum hunters
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,528
São Paulo, Brazil
But then I must ask, why didn't you ever consider voting for Faddy instead?

I remember you went over him and came to the conclusion that you saw him as being Townie. But the same things you were pointing out were the same things that people like myself, Fran, Flux, Monkey, Sorian, and probably others had all commented on as well, but in a way where we concluded that it made him look scummy, not townie. Like, I don't want to get on you for being wrong on your read, that's obviously not a big deal, it's just the way in which you presented all of those things and came away with the exact opposite conclusion so many others (including Confirmed Town) were. It reads a little unnatural to me I guess, and you did say at the end there that you can see why people want to lynch him, and also you were linking Malus with Faddy if he flips Scum, even though you are saying he's Townie to you.
I don't think I'll have the luxury of voting for my scum reads, so I'll share my reads list, sorta in order and without leans.

[...]

Will obviously move my vote if need be.
 

Fanto

Is this tag ok?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,863
And yet, he was around at EoD, saw the claims, believed Faddy, didn't think there would be a counter, and then Ketkat shows up, counters, he laughs and talks about how obliterated he is going to be now because of this. And never votes for Faddy. He was there, he saw it all, others voted for Faddy at that point, but his stuck in place.

Many people have said that Fandorin is a very good Scum player. This is my first time playing with him, I spectated KH where he was Town, yes, but this is my first time actually trying to form a read on him while playing with him. What I see here could read, to me, like Scum putting on a show, and the fact that his vote stayed put could be because he knew Faddy was a bomb and didn't want to be blown up alongside his teammate.
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
All this fight between Sorian and Brazil reminds me of my own fight with Sorian in Buffy.

My take on this: Is really fun to see this from the sidelines.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
And yet, he was around at EoD, saw the claims, believed Faddy, didn't think there would be a counter, and then Ketkat shows up, counters, he laughs and talks about how obliterated he is going to be now because of this. And never votes for Faddy. He was there, he saw it all, others voted for Faddy at that point, but his stuck in place.

Many people have said that Fandorin is a very good Scum player. This is my first time playing with him, I spectated KH where he was Town, yes, but this is my first time actually trying to form a read on him while playing with him. What I see here could read, to me, like Scum putting on a show, and the fact that his vote stayed put could be because he knew Faddy was a bomb and didn't want to be blown up alongside his teammate.
And as an addendum, please let Fandorin answer, Brazil. Not what you post that he's already said. Let him answer himself, now, because it's a new question now.
 

Fran

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,167
Brazil You have been talking for a while about Sorian, posted examples of contradictions and a lot of stuff but you are voting Malus.

Why aren't you voting Sorian after that big case that you made?
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,528
São Paulo, Brazil
And yet, he was around at EoD, saw the claims, believed Faddy, didn't think there would be a counter, and then Ketkat shows up, counters, he laughs and talks about how obliterated he is going to be now because of this. And never votes for Faddy. He was there, he saw it all, others voted for Faddy at that point, but his stuck in place.

Many people have said that Fandorin is a very good Scum player. This is my first time playing with him, I spectated KH where he was Town, yes, but this is my first time actually trying to form a read on him while playing with him. What I see here could read, to me, like Scum putting on a show, and the fact that his vote stayed put could be because he knew Faddy was a bomb and didn't want to be blown up alongside his teammate.
I see your perspective now. But here's mine:

If he knew what was coming, it would've made more sense for him to quickly slide in a vote in his initial reaction when it was safe. The vote was at 8 when he acknowledged the counterclaim. I think scum who knew Faddy was a lynchbomb would've taken that opportunity to get the easy town credit, and not just comment on it without a vote.
 

Dr. Monkey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,029
Natiko was the next vote for malus, starting here. He covers a lot of the same ground as Brazil, tbh, but I think he explains it more thoroughly. Even though he also includes a lot of quotes, I'll quote it for that deeper explanation:
Meanwhile, malus doesn't have as many posts but boy did they stand out:

The above series of posts is malus's opening to the game. Right out of the gate he jumps out with concern over Terra/Fanto due to the SSM vote on Terra for leader. He doesn't just give it a passing comment though - he actually spends nearly all of his posts at least partially arguing this point. Then after he starts catching more flak for it you see a complete 180 when he returns to the thread. It's early though and he professes to not be good at reads - sure.

Brazil talked about this some already, but I thought it still deserved a mention. He starts out clearly against CeeCee in the above posts.

Now he has progressed to CeeCee being neutral.

Now it only makes sense as town?

More town for CeeCee

But now on D2 he is okay with killing CeeCee..

..and wants to push for death if CeeCee doesn't come through D3.

Generally speaking this reads to me like inexperienced scum that initially thought he had an easy scum read to push for without any repercussion, realized the thread wasn't trending in that direction after all and backed off it hoping that CeeCee will kill more townies, and then ultimately upon realizing CeeCee can't even do that wants to try and justify a CeeCee lynch after all. If you couldn't see CeeCee's actions as anything but town D1, how has that changed at all just because he lied about his shots?


Now we get closer to D2 end. Here we have malus listing Bae has the scummiest person on the list from Fran - note that he explicitly says it is a gut feeling both for her read and in general. Turmoil is next to last on this list as well.

(Side note: More bloodlust for CeeCee)


Vote for Bae after the stats.


And then immediately walking it back. I pointed this out yesterday because it very much reads like someone hoping she will be flipped but wanting to separate himself from any ownership of said lynch.


Then when pressed on the vote, malus mentions it's a continuation of his previous read. His previous gut read, on his gut reads list. Now it reads like malus is trying to over inflate the depth of his own reads.


And finally we get to malus post-Bae claim pushing for...Flux's lynch. Not turmoil who was second on his scum list from Fran that he cared enough to talk up after his Bae vote. Yes, Flux was not on that list to rank so it's possible turmoil was just slotted behind Flux in his reads, but I still find it to be a note of mild concern.

Overall I came away from malus feeling pretty bad - he's definitely in my scum list at this point. Curious to hear what his thoughts on CeeCee are now, as well as if he actually starts making any pushes today beyond what he has so far. I'll go ahead and put a vote here:

VOTE: malus

Natiko posts his reads later and has malus in the top scum position.

The next posts are largely about Saw and responding to the thread. malus comes up when Fran and others say the malus vote feels like protection. Natiko just asks who is protecting.

And that's it until today. So from both Brazil and Natiko, I'm seeing some arguments, but neither feels like malus should be top scum read at least to my eye pre-Faddy shenanigans. They both move after Ket's counterclaim, which is legit. Brazil moved first, if it matters (I doubt it does). Febe next. I recall Febe's case on malus was... not.
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,528
São Paulo, Brazil
Brazil You have been talking for a while about Sorian, posted examples of contradictions and a lot of stuff but you are voting Malus.

Why aren't you voting Sorian after that big case that you made?
I just hope you're really malus' scummate and not just completely lost town, defending and downplaying arguments against someone you haven't even posted a real read of so far for no real reason. Because no matter how long it takes, they'll get to you after malus flips.
I strongly believe that they're scummates now, but the link between Faddy and malus that Fandorin brought up, on top of the suspicions I already had and Faddy's reaction to malus' D2 vote, makes up for a stronger case than the sum of my problems with Sorian. Not only that, but malus flipping scum would essentially clear Fand as well, which would make me very happy indeed.