Man who taught dog Nazi salute found guilty of hate crime

[Deleted member 11413]

I have to wonder if there would be any legal repercussions for a comedy show doing something like this. South Park has said or shown worse things but that's obviously not banned in the UK.

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Probably not, because they would have more power and influence than this individual. I mean that's why Prince Harry can joke around wearing a Nazi armband and nothing happens to him, yet this guy is convicted of a crime for something less offensive than that.

 

[Deleted member 442]

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127

It is pretty loose and broad, using the terminology "grossly offensive". That is the legal charge applied here. It's cases like this that allow the Government to flex its legal powers and use such bills that could interpret a whole range of things as "grossly offensive". Keep in mind it has taken over 2 years of multiple court hearings to get this sentence. Not even the courts found this a straightforward case.

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It might be worthwhile to post the current guidance that came about after the previous high profile social media cases.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidan...es-involving-communications-sent-social-media

Specifically, the below considerations about prosecutions.

A prosecution is unlikely to be both necessary and proportionate where:

1. The suspect has expressed genuine remorse;
2. Swift and effective action has been taken by the suspect and/or others for example, service providers, to remove the communication in question or otherwise block access to it;
3. The communication was not intended for a wide audience, nor was that the obvious consequence of sending the communication; particularly where the intended audience did not include the victim or target of the communication in question; or
4. The content of the communication did not obviously go beyond what could conceivably be tolerable or acceptable in an open and diverse society which upholds and respects freedom of expression.

This is not an exhaustive list, however, and each case must be considered on its own facts and its own individual merits.

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Following from that, if the guy hasn't carried out any of the above then yes he has probably broken the law and yes he is in danger of being prosecuted for it.

 

[Thatonedice1]

A dog raising his paw falls into your definition of hate speech?

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No because that would be ridiculous. I think you are ignoring the context of the video itself. Dude taught his dog to raise his paw like a nazi while also watching a video of a hitler speech and playfully saying "do you want to gas the jews?"

 

[marrec]

Play stupid games etc etc

Be careful tho y'all this could have a chilling effect on speech made by nazis and awful comedians. That's a slippery slope.

Thanks, I hadn't seen this gif 2 million other times in the past week.

Thanks again. Once on the first page of this thread wasn't enough.

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[Cream]

So what suggestions do all the people arguing for the "freeze peach rights" of this asshole have to actually curb the growth and spread of white nationalism?

 

[Prisma]

If this guy was saying something like "Hey boy do you want to enslave the blacks?" I don't think anyone would think it wasn't hate speech

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He CLEARLY stated at the start of the video that it was a joke on his girlfriend. If I heard him say that, then yes, I STILL would say it's not hate speech. He's talking to a dog. If he's asking the audience "Hey everyone, after seeing this video, I think you should all go out and get your own slave like a pokemon!" Then yeah, it'd be completely different.

The dude unironically shows his dog videos of hitler speaking and taught it how to do a nazi salute. I mean come on.

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It's dumb, I'm agreeing with that, but it's nothing more than that.

 

[PorkandBeans]

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard.

 

[Cybit]

You guys, America most definitely has limits to hate speech. I can guarantee you if I were to become a practicing Muslim again, and take all the speech and content from alt/far-right "content creators" and simply substitute the many calls for ethnic cleansing of black and other PoC with white people, and that ISIS isn't so bad. I would be swooped up pretty quickly. And vast majority of "freedom of speech" professing zealots wouldn't say shit in support of me.



11% versus President of your country be a racist POS who has Steph Bannon and Miller in his cabinet, not to mention an entire political party that's racist as thee fuck and have been since the 60s. And let's not act like America's entire fucking mantra isn't "if we don't talk about it, it'll go away". It's been America's ideology on racial issues since slavery ended.

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If you're going to equate Mitt Romney and John McCain to a group that advocates shooting refugees as they cross the border into Germany, then I got nothing for you. As for your comment - you do get that the ACLU defends US citizens who are accused of actually fighting for ISIS, not just those who talk about it. And in the US, no one has been arrested ever for anything less than actually trying to reach out to ISIS and provide material support (like bomb materials, safe havens, etc)? I think you are confusing the US with Europe again.

Frankly, the fact that so many progressives in here are arguing that Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions be allowed to dictate what hate speech consists of is batshit insane. Under these laws pretty much every major civil rights movement ends up DoA instantaneously. Like, how many leaders in modern progressive movements would get thrown in jail for the first time they said something off the cuff that was a tiny bit over the top under these laws? Do people not seriously understand the consequences of this?

To what groups? Brexit is exactly the same level as shit as Trump. It's why you got Farage hanging off Trumps ass.

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I'm going to repeat myself from up top and point out that AfD advocates shooting refugees as they cross the border into Germany. One of the things that is being significantly underplayed is Europe's struggle with massive racism (frankly, akin to that of the US) now that they are dropping below 85-90% white people in their countries. My south asian parents can tell you all about that.

 

[bill crystals]

The correct time to wheel out the freedom of speech argument IS when the Government/state/police are potentially going to put you in jail/take away your rights. People moaning about being banned on Twitter/forums/PSN can be ignored when they cry about freedom of speech.

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Yeah but I don't really give a shit if some idiot "comedian" is going to be punished for racist-adjacent jokes. Show me a time when freedom of speech was used to wrongly punish someone who wasn't being a racist douche and I'm much more likely to care. I feel like the argument is always that it's a slippery slope to becoming like China, but that doesn't appear to really be happening? All that seems to be happening is racist douches feel consequences for their actions.

 

[Ponn]

We need to arrest a guy who taught his dog to lift one arm and made an offensive not very funny video about it in 2016 or else we could have scenes like this one from 2005?

Whole thing seems like a massive waste of taxpayer money. Just fine him or something if a law was broken. Don't put him on trial

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More like we get a young generation that thinks Nazism is hilarious and normal and then fall into alt-right white nationalist groups which in turn causes a worldwide political shift that destabilizes several countries and sends minorities rights and progress back decades all while those moderates screamings "it's just jokes" sit on their asses.

But hey, it's all for the lulz right? As long as you aren't personally affected.

 

[Quixzlizx]

A dog raising his paw falls into your definition of hate speech?

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No, but "gas the Jews" probably is.

 

[HellforLeather]

No because that would be ridiculous. I think you are ignoring the context of the video itself. Dude taught his dog to raise his paw like a nazi while also watching a video of a hitler speech and playfully saying "do you want to gas the jews?"

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Oh I think this whole thing is ridiculous. Unless this guy is actively inciting violence, this sets a horrible precedent

 

[Blue Sky Noise]

And yet no time at all for the antisemitic dog. Disgraceful.

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Agreed. Ban this sick filth

 

[Deleted member 888]

It might be worthwhile to post the current guidance that came about after the previous high profile social media cases.

https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidan...es-involving-communications-sent-social-media

Specifically, the below considerations about prosecutions.



Following from that, if the guy hasn't carried out any of the above then yes he has probably broken the law and yes he is in danger of being prosecuted for it.

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He did apologise at the time.

(not his YT channel so not giving clicks/views to it)

Yeah but I don't really give a shit if some idiot "comedian" is going to be punished for racist-adjacent jokes. Show me a time when freedom of speech was used to wrongly punish someone who wasn't being a racist douche and I'm much more likely to care. I feel like the argument is always that it's a slippery slope to becoming like China, but that doesn't appear to really be happening? All that seems to be happening is racist douches feel consequences for their actions.

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You don't have to care for someone or like them to debate individuals rights and legal action by the state. Too many people seem to correlate "do I like this person?" against "what rights/laws does the state harbour and act against?".

 

[KHarvey16]

It prevents having Nazi and KKK rallies being legal in that context it more than does it's job.

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You're not going to stop those determinedly inclined to hate other non-white races from joining or sympathizing with these Neo-Nazi groups, no matter how vigilant you are in regulating public expressions of hate speech. But that doesn't mean that you aren't succeeding in preventing them from expanding at an even faster rate, from insinuating their hateful ideology even deeper in the consciousness of society, when you deal harsh penalties for speech that clearly is designed to legitimize these ideologies to the masses.

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But the rallies don't legitimize anything to anyone who wasn't already on board. It just gives a huge vector to fight against and you see people coming out in much larger numbers to push back and shout them down.

Expose bad ideas and defeat them. Forcing them to hide is not a good long term strategy whatsoever.

 

[Deleted member 3335]

Oh I think this whole thing is ridiculous. Unless this guy is actively inciting violence, this sets a horrible precedent

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Explain the horrible precedent

 

[Driggonny]

Does the UK even have "free speech" in the same way the U.S. does?

 

[marrec]

Explain the horrible precedent

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This could lead other white ethno-nationalists to not make dumb ass youtube videos

Truly a pall on free speech around the world.

 

[shan780]

So what suggestions do all the people arguing for the "freeze peach rights" of this asshole have to actually curb the growth and spread of white nationalism?

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I don't know about curbing the spread of white nationalism, but what I can tell you is that charging people for jokes (albeit in poor taste) is exactly the sort of thing that will only embolden the likes of Kate Hopkins, Tommy Robinson , Trump and their followers

 

[Deleted member 11413]

Does the UK even have "free speech" in the same way the U.S. does?

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Obviously not, hence why this prosecution can even happen

 

[Lady Bow]

This could lead other white ethno-nationalists to not make dumb ass youtube videos

Truly a pall on free speech around the world.

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[Principate]

But the rallies don't legitimize anything to anyone who wasn't already on board. It just gives a huge vector to fight against and you see people coming out in much larger numbers to push back and shout them down.

Expose bad ideas and defeat them. Forcing them to hide is not a good long term strategy whatsoever.

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Are you a minority? Do you think you would enjoy being one of the minorities target by a group of racists spewing filth outside your door and in your neighboured? What good exactly do you think that does?

 

[Deleted member 3335]

This could lead other white ethno-nationalists to not make dumb ass youtube videos

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That's the end of western civilization how we know it! But nice to see that ERA and the altright are fighting for the same thing for once!

 

[Cream]

I don't know about curbing the spread of white nationalism, but what I can tell you is that charging people for jokes (albeit in poor taste) is exactly the sort of thing that will only embolden the likes of Kate Hopkins, Tommy Robinson , Trump and their followers

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So no ideas at all huh

 

[Driggonny]

Obviously not, hence why this prosecution can even happen

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Okay, then many replies complaining that free speech is being infringed seem weird to me lol

 

[Deleted member 835]

If you're going to equate Mitt Romney and John McCain to a group that advocates shooting refugees as they cross the border into Germany, then I got nothing for you. As for your comment - you do get that the ACLU defends US citizens who are accused of actually fighting for ISIS, not just those who talk about it. And in the US, no one has been arrested ever for anything less than actually trying to reach out to ISIS and provide material support (like bomb materials, safe havens, etc)? I think you are confusing the US with Europe again.

Frankly, the fact that so many progressives in here are arguing that Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions be allowed to dictate what hate speech consists of is batshit insane. Under these laws pretty much every major civil rights movement ends up DoA instantaneously. Like, how many leaders in modern progressive movements would get thrown in jail for the first time they said something off the cuff that was a tiny bit over the top under these laws? Do people not seriously understand the consequences of this?



I'm going to repeat myself from up top and point out that AfD advocates shooting refugees as they cross the border into Germany. One of the things that is being significantly underplayed is Europe's struggle with massive racism (frankly, akin to that of the US) now that they are dropping below 85-90% white people in their countries. My south asian parents can tell you all about that.

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You were the dude that brought up Brexit and Germany in the same post. I said Brexit is exactly the same level as Trump. I know how racist the UK is, but still prefer it to the racism I felt when living in US

 

[Deleted member 3335]

Are you a minority? Do you think you enjoy being one of the minorities target by a group of racists spewing filth outside your door and in your neighboured? What good exactly do you think that does?

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Also the history and actual state of the USA are rendering his arguments wrong.

 

[VaporSnake]

More like we get a young generation that thinks Nazism is hilarious and normal and then fall into alt-right white nationalist groups which in turn causes a worldwide political shift that destabilizes several countries and sends minorities rights and progress back decades all while those moderates screamings "it's just jokes" sit on their asses.

But hey, it's all for the lulz right? As long as you aren't personally affected.

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Zero self awareness, you do realize you're claiming a dogowner teaching his pet to do the nazi salute going unpunished will somehow lead us down a path towards a dsystopian future? Absolutely hilarious.

 

[Bakercat]

...and thus, the great Doggy Nuremberg Trials of 2018 have begun...

Thanks, I hadn't seen this gif 2 million other times in the past week.



Thanks again. Once on the first page of this thread wasn't enough.

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[Thatonedice1]

He CLEARLY stated at the start of the video that it was a joke on his girlfriend. If I heard him say that, then yes, I STILL would say it's not hate speech. He's talking to a dog. If he's asking the audience "Hey everyone, after seeing this video, I think you should all go out and get your own slave like a pokemon!" Then yeah, it'd be completely different.



It's dumb, I'm agreeing with that, but it's nothing more than that.

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I mean when you are a semi popular youtuber that has a audience of people he is ready to speak to at almost anytime of day then I don't see how he isn't at least advocating for discrimination against the jewish people. I mean where is the line between joke and hate speech? When do we start making the difference between extremely offensive joke and advocating for violence against a group of people.

 

[BigJeffery]

What is the functional difference between this and all of the Mitchell and Webb sketches about Nazis?

 

[marrec]

So no ideas at all huh

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If we do things to stop white nationalism, it will only EMBOLDEN white nationalism you see

If we ignore all the nazis they'll just get bored and go focus their racial hatred into knitting or something

 

[shan780]

So no ideas at all huh

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if your idea of curbing white nationalism is to jail people for tone deaf jokes then I don't know what to say

 

[Deleted member 135]

Too many would gladly give up all freedom of speech if it meant that they never had to hear anything offensive ever again.

 

[Sub Level]

This guy is a fuckin ethnostate cunt. But there is no crime here.

 

[Deleted member 11413]

So what suggestions do all the people arguing for the "freeze peach rights" of this asshole have to actually curb the growth and spread of white nationalism?

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Exerting social pressures to exclude them from public discourse and positions of power.

It's also important to note that he wasn't convicted of hate speech, he was convicted of 'offensive speech' which is extremely broad and could be applied to nearly anything anyone find offensive. Hence why the woman who jokingly tweeted #killallwhitemen was also prosecuted under the same law. Depending on who is in power (Mike Pence, for example), discussions of homosexuality could be deemed 'offensive'. This is why the first amendment to the constitution exists

 

[cosmicblizzard]

It's honestly kind of worrisome how many people agree with this verdict. That signals to me that the people posting this comic:

never really believed it. You can't mock "freeze peach" and then turn around and be cool with government intervention. Social consequences, employment consequences, etc; all fair game. But legal consequences for an offensive joke? Nah, fuck that.

This is not incitement, it's a dipshit doing a bad routine. Though I'll admit I laughed at the absurdity in the same way I laughed at that one dude that taught his friend's dog to associate "Wanna go for a walk" with the words "Child porn!"

Edit: And before anyone says anything, yes I know that comic as about America. The idea still applies.

 

[EightBitNate]

So no ideas at all huh

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The point that user is getting at is that jailing someone for a joke will only have the opposite effect that we want (white nationalism will get worse).

 

[Klean]

The second rise of the Nazi party in Europe will be birthed from a pug that knows how to sieg heil.

 

[Deleted member 835]

Too many would gladly give up all freedom of speech if it meant that they never had to hear anything offensive ever again.

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Too many would gladly let minorities ( I include LGBT+) be shat on just cus of "free speech"

 

[Deleted member 442]

He did apologise at the time.

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Hmm, swing and a miss.

I wonder how that fitted with the court case then. I'd have figured he'd have had legal advice that the above stuff from the CPS was what the courts and the CPS would be looking at. The judgement itself doesn't seem to have been posted online (at least I can't find it) so there's not much to go on from that perspective.

 

[Heisenberg726]

While the guy was a dick, this is a sad day for courts overall. Shows that anyone can be put to court and prosecuted for any type of joke, and it's up to the courts to decide if it hurts people or not.

 

[LucidMomentum]

Too many would gladly give up all freedom of speech if it meant that they never had to hear anything offensive ever again.

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Yeah some people don't really have problems with not being offensive to people.

I know that's hard to grasp for a lot of others though.

While the guy was a dick, this is a sad day for courts overall. Shows that anyone can be put to court and prosecuted for any type of joke, and it's up to the courts to decide if it hurts people or not.

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It's not any kind of joke. It's the Nazi salute that was then filmed as a "laugh".

I get that you're saying it could be a slippery slope, but the court is pretty clear that if it was an army salute or anything like that it wouldn't have been an issue.

 

[Blue Sky Noise]

We shrug and look the other way when they take down the Nazi dogs but what about when they come for the socialist cats? The green gerbils? The left of centre social democratic cockatiel?

 

[BigJeffery]

Someone better tell the remaining Monty Python guys to get out of the UK before people realize what a good third of all their jokes were about.

 

[Khanimus]

He later apologized after being arrested, saying he doesn't "actually hate Jewish people" and that the Holocaust was "an awful thing."

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Wow, how big of him

 

[Deleted member 135]

Too many would gladly let minorities ( I include LGBT+) be shat on just cus of "free speech"

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Don't bother with false equivalency bullshit.


Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from consequences for your speech, just freedom from governmental interference with your speech.

 

[Admiral Woofington]

The guy has been interviewed in a podcast I listen to and never during the interview did he come across as anything besides an idiot trying to do a cheeky prank on his gfs dog. He stated multiple times it should be obvious that he wasn't serious and that yes it shouldn't have to be stated that the nazis were bad.

Where are people seeing he was a white supremacist? Every interview prior to this was him and the host laughing over how dumb a pug doing a Nazi salute looked.

 

[Deleted member 3335]

Too many would gladly let minorities ( I include LGBT+) be shat on just cus of "free speech"

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It's sure funny coming from a country that criminalized people for being communistic (real or not). European countries had historically always a wider range of political movements and groups than the USA.

 

[Prisma]

I mean where is the line between joke and hate speech? When do we start making the difference between extremely offensive joke and advocating for violence against a group of people.

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It should be pretty obvious, but I feel like a lot of people are missing the point lately. When the words are used to incite hatred, cause violence and make people want to actually do these things, then yes, it's hate speech. Making a dog react to comments is VERY clearly a joke. Especially when prefaced by him SAYING IT'S A JOKE. He didn't ask or make anyone watching do anything. They just laughed or clicked off the video. Like they were meant to. Not take him to jail. It's super obvious when someone is trying to spread hate, and this was definitely not it.