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Dust

C H A O S
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,315
How lovely that once Chris gets banned and the mods lay down new rules, we get more and more comments saying, "I told you so! You get what you deserve!" or "This place was always a Nintendo fan haven, just like I've been saying!".
I only checked in because of the Staff Post and gave my two cents about what I thought about MCS threads over years. I have right do to that, surely. And I didn't say it was just Nintendo fan haven, everyone was going insane here, PS fans too with rather poor PS performance in Japan defense.
Threads were just suffocating, even for lurking.

I will leave it at that and hope posters will get their thread issues resolves, so it just doesn't disappear.
 
Oct 28, 2019
5,974
User Warned: Snarky comment following Staff Post
It's very ironic that the salt that was palpable in here after the successful Tales of Arise reviews is what brought down this thread.
 

Kouriozan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,145
things calmed down a lot when the wii u was bombing and so was the vita.
Oh I remember the Wii U bombing, even myself I made joke and was saying bad things about how Nintendo handled the situation in those MC threads.
At that time there was also the worries of mobile gaming overtaking the traditional console one.
 

Pooroomoo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,972
The usual actors trying to pretend that this isn't one big cover thread to call companies that don't support your favorite Nintendo console dumbasses is not fooling anybody. It is essentially port begging and a dumb "secret club" jerkoff session disguised with code language. Trying to act like the thread was some holy sanctum under constant assault from Playstation fans is not helping your case at all.

And don't try to paint it as "market realities". That would not come close to justifying the silly, childishly aggressive fanboy behavior I've seen in here. Hopefully the guidelines work, if people haven't been put off enough by the usual stench of not so slick dogpiling platform fanboys tiptoeing around language they know will get them banned.

Here's to the guidelines working out.
Reported, let's indeed see how this works out.
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
I only checked in because of the Staff Post and gave my two cents about what I thought about MCS threads over years. I have right do to that, surely. And I didn't say it was just Nintendo fan haven, everyone was going insane here, PS fans too with rather poor PS performance in Japan defense.
Threads were just suffocating, even for lurking.

I will leave it at that and hope posters will get their thread issues resolves, so it just doesn't disappear.
Well I apologize if you had different intentions, but things are a little hot here after the recent bans and all, so it doesn't help when people swing by only to say "this place was always hostile and aggressive towards non-Nintendo fans" over and over. And I do agree that there was a pretty mucky atmosphere that was hard for newcomers of any type to come in. I don't think banning the guy behind these threads for the past few decades over the contents of an article was justified, but it is what it is and we have to move on.
 
Feb 9, 2019
2,508
Gacha Hell
That's a good staff post and it addresses pretty much all of my problems with salesera threads. Thanks for that.

That being said I'm not entirely lacking in self-awareness and I realize in my frustration at the general toxicity that permeated these threads, I've contributed to it in recent weeks and for that, you have my apologies. Let's all try to do a little better going forward.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,063
When people come here, we don't ask what kind of fan they are. The regulars here would (sometimes a little too aggressively) do their best to shut down people playing down mediocre or declining PS software sales. Telling people that PS isn't doing well and why they're in their current position in Japan may come off as "unfriendly" to some, but there certainly isn't any console warring or anything.
I feel it's kind of unfair to some of the regulars here to say that newcomers will have a hard time to post here due to the threads being insular. New users tend to post here and can participate fine. Tbone for example joined last year and he is participating just fine. New users also ask questions and gets answered properly or pointed to the right direction in some cases.

Of course some of the posts can show annoyance if the poster they are answering continues to post in bad faith. It's just the nature of these threads.
 

Crazy Steve

Member
Oct 27, 2017
451
When people come here, we don't ask what kind of fan they are. The regulars here would (sometimes a little too aggressively) do their best to shut down people playing down mediocre or declining PS software sales. Telling people that PS isn't doing well and why they're in their current position in Japan may come off as "unfriendly" to some, but there certainly isn't any console warring or anything.
They 'shut them down' in a hostile way because it didn't fit their narrative. And Chris did that too. A lot.
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
It's very ironic that the salt that was palpable in here after the successful Tales of Arise reviews is what brought down this thread.
ToA reviews had nothing to do with it. The bigger thing was that despite the reviews, it opened lower than Bereseria, which was the previous recent low for modern tales games. You then had people using those reviews as the reason behind its western success (likely true), and then then using its western success to downplay the disappointing JP sales.
 

Adventureracing

The Fallen
Nov 7, 2017
8,037
I think the fact that people are coming out of the woodworks to post drivebys right now is pretty telling. Again that's why people are upset, regulars are getting banned meanwhile people seem to be free to come in here now and post their drive by trolls.

It's very ironic that the salt that was palpable in here after the successful Tales of Arise reviews is what brought down this thread.

How is this not a straight troll post?
 

cw_sasuke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,419
It's very ironic that the salt that was palpable in here after the successful Tales of Arise reviews is what brought down this thread.
You really think people here were mad for ToA reviewing ? It's stuff like this that makes me wonder why someone would post something like this and what kind of reaction they expect out of it.

Most people here don't even care about review scores like that since the focus are sales but even then ...what would be the benefit of a low quality release ? Especially when one of a main argument seems to be that these quality games could perform even better and maybe stop the domestic decline if they were developed with Switch in mind.

I don't get it.
 

Quasi

Banned
Aug 24, 2021
702
Yeah no. The MC thread always had a bad reputation because of all the hostility from the regulars here. Newbies and non hardcore Nintendo fans weren't welcome. So the general rule for many was to just stay out of the MC thread and just lurk here and there. And one of the reasons for this was the thread starter himself. So I'm not suprised why the regulars here are now trying to defend him and are acting like they are the victims. Because of a 1 day ban. Don't act like some random drive by posts or the constant port begging were the only issues here. The new guidelines are great. A good clean up was long overdue.
I really don't get this. I've mostly lurked but I never felt that new people were unwelcome.

And a quick glance at the times you posted in these threads shows that you were probably one of the more toxic posters...
 

Meriadock

Member
Apr 21, 2018
704
Brazil
I think the fact that people are coming out of the woodworks to post drivebys right now is pretty telling. Again that's why people are upset, regulars are getting banned meanwhile people seem to be free to come in here now and post their drive by trolls.



How is this not a straight troll post?

Yeah... I always ignore these trolls. Now I'm reporting every single one.
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
I honestly feel like the best course of action at the moment would be to lock the thread again for a bit.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,796
It seems a lot of people have been asking about the one day ban for Chris1964, which was escalated normally off of a warning from the day before. This is routine stuff that happens in every long running thread. It's a slap on the wrist to draw a member's attention to a concern. Nothing that transpired in this thread warranted some of the extreme reactions that we've seen.

The staff post has been in the works since the recent Tales drama and it wasn't targeted at any individual or even any group of individuals. It's intended only to make sure that the thread isn't putting off decent members who are interested in sales and are not trolls. That's really it. Just avoid sniping, check your sources, pretty standard stuff. Again, not targeted at any individuals.

It seems like the main problem here is that somehow people got the idea that we're "taking sides" and/or providing cover for trolls to come into the thread and stir up trouble. That is absolutely not the case. There should be room for polite and good faith disagreement, but if we suspect your intent is to cause a disturbance, throw bait, lay traps, or anything of that nature, we're going to take a good look at you first. We will have very little patience for anyone trying to exploit the staff post for petty reasons.

The thread will be unlocked after we finish reviewing reports.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
32,796
Thread is open again!

After hearing from well-meaning members I wanted to clarify again that the staff post was something that's been in the works for a while and in retrospect my call to rush it out yesterday was bad timing. The fact that it came on the heels of banning the OP (even just for a day) made it look like the two things were connected like some big statement, and that was never supposed to be the case. That was just a routine ban, the shortest we can possibly do.

The guidelines aren't asking for anything unreasonable and while they will be enforced, we're not going to be hunting for excuses to ban people over them. Going forward we are going to prioritize finding additional staff who are regulars in this thread and can handle its moderation. We really believe that those of you who are willing to give the guidelines a chance will end up with a better thread in the long run.

Now in case this needs to be said again: Don't troll. Don't try to use the guidelines as cover for your trolling. Don't go looking for drama. Don't make wildly inappropriate analogies or extremely hostile posts towards members or staff.

Believe it or not the staff hates drama. This was never intended to be a big dramatic change. The only goal is a friendlier thread where more people feel welcome to participate in good faith.
 

parasite2

Member
Oct 22, 2020
942
Thanks for the explanation B-dubs, I hope Chris wants to come back. I always read this thread and his contribution is important.
 

JC317

Member
May 29, 2018
137
Thank you. Finally having confirmation that the moderators will be working with thread regulars over handling thread guidelines is a huge relief, and hopefully the MC threads can move forward with less trolling and JAQ's.
 

Strings

Member
Oct 27, 2017
31,452
Seeing even more Kloana trademarks being filed, I ended up looking at the numbers for the Wii remake which... I didn't realise bombed so hard? It did 5800 first week sales on Wii in 2008 o.O I presume a rerelease will probably include that version alongside the OG 1 and 2?
 

MegaXZero

One Winged Slayer
Member
Jun 21, 2018
5,079
Going forward we are going to prioritize finding additional staff who are regulars in this thread and can handle its moderation. We really believe that those of you who are willing to give the guidelines a chance will end up with a better thread in the long run.
This will hopefully address one of the most pressing concerns, the community having a voice, so thank you B-Dubs.
 

Napalm_Frank

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
5,738
Finland
Seeing even more Kloana trademarks being filed, I ended up looking at the numbers for the Wii remake which... I didn't realise bombed so hard? It did 5800 first week sales on Wii in 2008 o.O I presume a rerelease will probably include that version alongside the OG 1 and 2?
Hopefully 2 is included since Wiimake is easy to emulate and the original game has been released on so many platforms anyway.

2 however is really hard to emulate properly and not available on anything else than PS2. Like, I'd love to replay it on a modern platform and not have to hook up my PS2 to my PC monitor lol.
 

--R

Being sued right now, please help me find a lawyer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,808
Hopefully 2 is included since Wiimake is easy to emulate and the original game has been released on so many platforms anyway.

2 however is really hard to emulate properly and not available on anything else than PS2. Like, I'd love to replay it on a modern platform and not have to hook up my PS2 to my PC monitor lol.

Well, the latest trademark does say 1 & 2 Encore, so hopefully?
 

Napalm_Frank

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
5,738
Finland
Well, the latest trademark does say 1 & 2 Encore, so hopefully?
I want to believe. However I keep my expectations at zero since it's been 200 years since the last Klonoa Encore trademark and the IP has had some rough times lately.

Best case scenario is that it includes 1 & 2 and releases on every platform cuz more people need to play Klonoa.

I assume they'd just have the Wii version of 1 which is good but it would be really neat if they had both the OG and the remake. They are basically the exact same game but there are some reasons why I prefer the original while still revisiting the remake once in a while due to it being overall really good job.
 
Oct 26, 2017
13,617
I do hope that somehow they touch up Klonoa 2 to make it look closer to Klonoa Wii if they are using that as Klonoa 1 (which is obvious). It'd be awkward having the sequel look worse IMO. But I'd be happy to just have that damn game at last as Wii owners were robbed of Klonoa 2 when the Wii remake bombed. :(

AND that was the second time as supposedly Klonoa 2 was going to be on GC at one point! ROBBED I TELLS YA!
 

ZSaberLink

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,678
Thanks for the clarification B-Dubs. Appreciate the effort to find mods that also are regulars in the thread.

Also I did want to respond to something said by some posters earlier in the thread. It may not be obvious without context, but folks in these threads like video games, are curious about how they sell, and want them to sell well and be successful. The vast majority of us are not cheerleading any particular platform, but the industry itself.

Thus when posters might ask "why didn't release X on all platforms", it's because we think business-wise they may be missing out on a significant set of players on the missing platform. Rarely if ever do people seem to be pushing for exclusives (it happens occasionally, but it's rare). More often than not we just want multiplatform development, since that taps into all the potential player bases. We just want games to succeed, and thus think about ways that a potential title could have sold better. Sometimes it needs more marketing (see NEO TWEWY), sometimes it's leaving out platforms where similar titles have done well (Sakura Wars), and other times it's not appealing or it's super buggy (recent Marvelous titles). Just because we're critical of the business decisions made doesn't mean we hate the people involved or the company. We just disagree with the decisions, especially when it ends up with a bad sales result especially in Japan. Sometimes we end up ribbing particular individuals or companies, but it's largely in good fun rather than some malicious intent.

So when folks are asking "why isn't this on Switch", it's not because they're port begging, it's because the game is missing out on a huge traditional and successful userbase in Japan. When the recent baseball game from Konami came to Switch only, many people were asking the exact opposite question "why did they abandon PS4 already, they have a sizable userbase there". When Monster Hunter World came out and was quite successful (a slight decline in Japan and grew a ton worldwide), most folks didn't question the decision after the results, because clearly Capcom had a plan, the game was high budget, and they succeeded. They also even had a backup plan with Monster Hunter Rise, which shows Capcom had really thought things through. When Xbox does well, pretty much everyone cheers it on, because having more relevant players in the space indicates a healthier market. Just because the Switch is doing well and we're cheering it on, or PS5 software sales are poor atm and we point it out, doesn't mean we're "supporting" some console. We're stating facts as they are, celebrating successes, and bemoaning failures. When the Wii U flopped sales-wise around the world, Media Create made tons more fun of the Wii U with numerous memes, chalkboards, etc. Folks took it in stride. PS5 hasn't received half of that even though sadly the software situation somehow looks even worse than the Wii U.

Anyways, just wanted to put my thoughts out there. I agree with the mods message that we could be a lot more civil. If there are trolls or folks trying to agitate others, all I've got to say is report them, then ignore them, and move on.
 
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MysticGon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 31, 2017
7,285
Seeing the Prediction League participant list shrink until it became defunct wasn't good. Less participation and all the rest of it but the Japanese market has become less competitive thanks to the well documented actions of Sony's leadership. That had a trickle down effect that made it obvious PlayStation was making missteps that would it to no longer be a major player in the market. We are seeing it play out before our very eyes each week.

Making the place friendly to newcomers who may see record sales and then come in these threads to see a different reality is fine and dandy but don't throw the baby out with the bath water. These threads are a invaluable source of extensive, vetted information dating back nearly decades. In the last couple of days all of that info is risked being nuked to make a statement. One that could have been made more effectively with cooperation with the community.
 

zroid

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
5,785
Canada
Thread is open again!

After hearing from well-meaning members I wanted to clarify again that the staff post was something that's been in the works for a while and in retrospect my call to rush it out yesterday was bad timing. The fact that it came on the heels of banning the OP (even just for a day) made it look like the two things were connected like some big statement, and that was never supposed to be the case. That was just a routine ban, the shortest we can possibly do.

The guidelines aren't asking for anything unreasonable and while they will be enforced, we're not going to be hunting for excuses to ban people over them. Going forward we are going to prioritize finding additional staff who are regulars in this thread and can handle its moderation. We really believe that those of you who are willing to give the guidelines a chance will end up with a better thread in the long run.

Now in case this needs to be said again: Don't troll. Don't try to use the guidelines as cover for your trolling. Don't go looking for drama. Don't make wildly inappropriate analogies or extremely hostile posts towards members or staff.

Believe it or not the staff hates drama. This was never intended to be a big dramatic change. The only goal is a friendlier thread where more people feel welcome to participate in good faith.
I think all of this is reasonable. Happy posting, everybody.
 

bayonetta

Member
Dec 3, 2018
110
guess what's left in this thread are people jumping over amazon daily chart
rip Media Create Sales threads :/
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
K
Accusations that companies or creators/developers are showing favoritism for or bias against certain companies (i.e. Nagoshi, Harada, Nihon Falcom, etc. for Sony/against Nintendo) are not allowed unless there is evidence supporting such accusations.

So no speculative talk? Anyone can post any rumours they find on 4chan, reddit and make all speculations they want. If people see a trend from a publisher the normal conclusion is to speculate here and there. Talking strictly sales will make this threads a copy of the NPDs. 3 pages filled with Nintendo doing well! Sony is a beast! Well done e3!

Lower level commentary that doesnt encourage conversation.

Beyond the questionnable guidelines which I elaborated on in my post above.

Just Wow at banning Chris. Where's the respect in that ?

The guy provides every week for years a impeccable thread about the Japanese market. He is a pillar of this community and you ban him just like that ? It must be so disheartening after all the effort he put.

If you were really concerned about improving the thread, you would be discussing it with him, privately. Because he knows probably the most about these threads than everyone in the mod team. It is okay to admit that you are not knowledgeable in certain topic, or so I thought.

People know this thread because of the work he does, I am mostly a lurker but I know his post since the old NG days.
The amount of bad faith post directed at Chris are on a whole new level. I hope he comes back, but if he doesnt we may as well say good bye to this threads.
 

ikaben

Member
Oct 27, 2017
564
Going forward we are going to prioritize finding additional staff who are regulars in this thread and can handle its moderation.

This is rather nice.

Thanks for the clarification B-Dubs. Appreciate the effort to find mods that also are regulars in the thread.

Also I did want to respond to something said by some posters earlier in the thread. It may not be obvious without context, but folks in these threads like video games, are curious about how they sell, and want them to sell well and be successful. The vast majority of us are not cheerleading any particular platform, but the industry itself.

I wanted to reply to one of Ishaan's comment with something like this. Well put!

-------
Man I hope Chris returns. If he doesn't please let us know if we have a back up plan O.O

------

Castlevania Advance Collection will be fun to watch XD
 

bayonetta

Member
Dec 3, 2018
110
so we can't talk about a game if it didn't sell well
and we can't criticize a company's actions in a sale thread which lead to a low sales in the first place .
I don't see any problem in that
 

Deleted member 98338

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 11, 2021
112
RankConsoleGameTotalChangeDays leftPricePublisher
1NSWPokemon Brilliant Diamond/Shining Pearl252+260¥5,980Pokemon Co.
2NSWPokemon Legends: Arceus106+1130¥5,980Pokemon Co.
3NSWShin Megami Tensei V86+152¥8,980Atlus
4PS4Lost Judgment66+44¥8,290Sega
5NSWSuper Robot Wars 3035+138¥8,600Bandai Namco
6PS4The Legend of Heroes: Kuro no Kiseki33+310¥7,800Nihon Falcom
7PS4Super Robot Wars 3029038¥8,600Bandai Namco
8PS4Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba – The Hinokami Chronicles23024¥7,600Aniplex
9PS5Lost Judgment2004¥8,290Sega
10NSWDragon Ball Z: Kakarot + A New Power Awakens Set1602¥6,680Bandai Namco
11NSWMario Party: Superstars16039¥5,980Nintendo
12PS4Blue Reflection: Second Light15031¥7,800Koei Tecmo
13NSWBlue Reflection: Second Light13031¥7,800Koei Tecmo
14PS4Melty Blood: Type Lumina13010¥6,800Delight Works
15NSWMetroid Dread12018¥6,980Nintendo
16NSWMelty Blood: Type Lumina11010¥6,800Delight Works


Comg Combined SKU Charts

Credit - theDX from Vgcharts
Source - Comg website.

Comparison -

lost Judgement - 86 (4 days to go)

Judgement - 90 (last day). FW - 232 (Also released on holiday season)
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
so we can't talk about a game if it didn't sell well
and we can't criticize a company's actions in a sale thread which lead to a low sales in the first place .
I don't see any problem in that
That's not what cvxfreak said at all. It's more about not hurting personal insults. Is ok if err have context and analysis.
 
Dec 21, 2020
5,066
RankConsoleGameTotalChangeDays leftPricePublisher
1NSWPokemon Brilliant Diamond/Shining Pearl252+260¥5,980Pokemon Co.
2NSWPokemon Legends: Arceus106+1130¥5,980Pokemon Co.
3NSWShin Megami Tensei V86+152¥8,980Atlus
4PS4Lost Judgment66+44¥8,290Sega
5NSWSuper Robot Wars 3035+138¥8,600Bandai Namco
6PS4The Legend of Heroes: Kuro no Kiseki33+310¥7,800Nihon Falcom
7PS4Super Robot Wars 3029038¥8,600Bandai Namco
8PS4Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba – The Hinokami Chronicles23024¥7,600Aniplex
9PS5Lost Judgment2004¥8,290Sega
10NSWDragon Ball Z: Kakarot + A New Power Awakens Set1602¥6,680Bandai Namco
11NSWMario Party: Superstars16039¥5,980Nintendo
12PS4Blue Reflection: Second Light15031¥7,800Koei Tecmo
13NSWBlue Reflection: Second Light13031¥7,800Koei Tecmo
14PS4Melty Blood: Type Lumina13010¥6,800Delight Works
15NSWMetroid Dread12018¥6,980Nintendo
16NSWMelty Blood: Type Lumina11010¥6,800Delight Works


Comg Combined SKU Charts

Credit - theDX from Vgcharts
Source - Comg website.

Comparison -

lost Judgement - 86 (4 days to go)

Judgement - 90 (last day). FW - 232 (Also released on holiday season)
I wonder if my 35k prediction for LJ on PS5 will hold through

and thank you very much for providing this in such an organized manner
 

mariodk18

Member
Dec 27, 2017
1,501
I think I previously predicted 100k opening for LJ with a 3:1 PS4 split. What is everyone else thinking?
 

Pooroomoo

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,972
RankConsoleGameTotalChangeDays leftPricePublisher
1NSWPokemon Brilliant Diamond/Shining Pearl252+260¥5,980Pokemon Co.
2NSWPokemon Legends: Arceus106+1130¥5,980Pokemon Co.
3NSWShin Megami Tensei V86+152¥8,980Atlus
4PS4Lost Judgment66+44¥8,290Sega
5NSWSuper Robot Wars 3035+138¥8,600Bandai Namco
6PS4The Legend of Heroes: Kuro no Kiseki33+310¥7,800Nihon Falcom
7PS4Super Robot Wars 3029038¥8,600Bandai Namco
8PS4Demon Slayer: Kimetsu no Yaiba – The Hinokami Chronicles23024¥7,600Aniplex
9PS5Lost Judgment2004¥8,290Sega
10NSWDragon Ball Z: Kakarot + A New Power Awakens Set1602¥6,680Bandai Namco
11NSWMario Party: Superstars16039¥5,980Nintendo
12PS4Blue Reflection: Second Light15031¥7,800Koei Tecmo
13NSWBlue Reflection: Second Light13031¥7,800Koei Tecmo
14PS4Melty Blood: Type Lumina13010¥6,800Delight Works
15NSWMetroid Dread12018¥6,980Nintendo
16NSWMelty Blood: Type Lumina11010¥6,800Delight Works


Comg Combined SKU Charts

Credit - theDX from Vgcharts
Source - Comg website.

Comparison -

lost Judgement - 86 (4 days to go)

Judgement - 90 (last day). FW - 232 (Also released on holiday season)
I know this is not scientific but what were the final COMG preorders for ToA?
 
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Deleted member 98338

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 11, 2021
112
Only thing ill add Respect others and they will respect you. Sometimes its better to just ignore or disagreeing in polite manner helps..

I wonder if my 35k prediction for LJ on PS5 will hold through

and thank you very much for providing this in such an organized manner

Welcome.. Though credit goes to theDx for the formatting.

Also these days generally I am seeing 700x multiplier for ps4 on an average
and 900-1000x multiplier for PS5 games on an average


I know this is not scientific but what were the final COMG preorders for ToA vs FW actual sales results?

248 - PS4 Normal Editiion. (610 x multiplier)
49 - PS5 Normal Edition (1050 x multiplier)
 
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abellwillring

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,940
Austin, TX
I feel as though the rules come down to one very simple truth: the weekly sales threads have gotten very comfortable with disparaging behaviour. Yes, there are trolls, and they should either be ignored or dealt with (preferably the latter), but our regular posters make the problem so much worse than it needs to be, by being hostile even towards people that are genuinely trying to contribute data and in-depth analysis of their own.
Can attest to this even ad someone who has been closely following video game sales for 20+ years. I have not read the pages prior to this which caused this to kick off specifically, but some ground rules being more firmly established is always a good thing.
 
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