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chromatic9

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,003
Hard to fathom how each year would've gone and where we'd be at 5-10-15 years later

My gut instinct says it would end in tears but after FFX it's not been good really and FF9 was the last FF game I truly enjoyed. Maybe under MS they would've made some good games true what worked before, ha.

I remember the Level 5 fallout so perhaps FF11-15 would be even worse.
 

Hate

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,730
NeiR: Automata was going to be a PC game, originally, wasn't it? If Square were owned by MS, terrible PC ports like NieR: Automata's would not happen. MS have standards. Wildly inconsistent standards -- see Halo Wars 2 -- but standards nonetheless.

If MS owned square NieR Automata would not exist at all. Really.

From Drakengard 1-3 and NieR, that's 4 flops financially. The only reason there were sequels is that a producer at SE was a really big fan of Yoko Taro.

And no it was not a PC game originally. It was supposed to be a mobile game turned Vita turned PS4.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,647
Arizona
Bungie's absolutely terrible development practices would probably never have been allowed if Microsoft had been paying attention to what Bungie were doing.
The fuck is up with Bungie anyway? They seemed like they finally got their shit together with Halo 3, ODST, and Reach, after the absolute trainwreck of Halo 2's development, and the troubled developments of CE and I believe Oni, but then Destiny 1 and 2 have been as disastrous as ever. Did MS clamp down during those last few games after two near-huge-misses, or did Bungie clean themselves up only to forget everything immediately after Reach? Or is it all Jason Jones? (IIRC he stepped back quite a bit after H2 and Destiny was all him for ages).
 

DangerMouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,402
Considering how unsuccessful Xbox was in Japan even when they did push Japanese-friendly games, this would've destroyed Square.
.

Level 5, Platinum, statements from nippon ichi, what they did to phantom dust, ect...in addition to the attitude fostered by both Japan and MS at that time period especially,

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-12-13-why-xbox-failed-in-japan

Its my view that nothing good would have come from MS buying Square. I'm not sure why either of you have an issue with that claim. Its pretty sensible as a viewpoint.
Yup. They've screwed over or abandoned almost every Japanese co-production they've attempted, several of which have pretty much refused to ever work with them again as fallout and others seemingly have felt like they were left holding the debt. Even Mistwalker they seemed to drop like a hot potato the moment they got FFXIII merely multiplatform. It wasn't long after that they pulled out on that third game.

If MS didn't really understand what Rare was and their culture, good lord would they have struggled at understanding Square. Everyone involved dodged a bullet there.
Yeah.

Edit:
That's true; Square would have ceased to exist several years ago.
Beat me to it.
 
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Miles

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
639
San Diego, CA
It's interesting to truly think about the ramifications of this deal had it gone through. A lot of games that exist today would probably not have been developed.

If Microsoft bought Square, then the Enix merger probably wouldn't have happened.
Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon would have most likely not been developed, or would have been picked up by Sony for the PS3 when Mist Walkers needed funding. MS would have already had a dedicated JRPG company, they wouldn't have bothered with the Gooch titles if they already had big daddy Final Fantasy.
A lot of the smaller end titles would probably not been made. Bravely Default either wouldn't exist or it would've been an XBLA title.

I may be wrong on all of this but those were the first things that came to mind.
 

saenima

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,892
As much as Squaresoft has imo kinda lost its touch in the last few years on the developing side, this would be the worst case scenario for me short of just shutting it all down.
 

lupinko

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,154
NeiR: Automata was going to be a PC game, originally, wasn't it? If Square were owned by MS, terrible PC ports like NieR: Automata's would not happen. MS have standards. Wildly inconsistent standards -- see Halo Wars 2 -- but standards nonetheless.

It's all speculation, anyway. We have no idea how MS would have run Square. They've never been in that position before. Like, if Microsoft had outright owned Bioware, do people think that Bioware's games would have changed all that much? I don't think so. The biggest change of MS owning Square would probably have been MS pushing higher production values. (The Final Fantasy series has some ATROCIOUS graphics.) Which would push costs up. Which would push sales expectations up. This would have potential knock-on effects.

Is this some terrible sarcasm? Square has been pushing graphics in RPGs with FF since the Famicom.
 

DangerMouse

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,402
The biggest change of MS owning Square would probably have been MS pushing higher production values. (The Final Fantasy series has some ATROCIOUS graphics.)
Uhhh....

mal-speechless.gif


The FF series from Squaresoft and Square-Enix has been pushing very high production values as one of the series' key components for ages, since basically the beginning.
Atrocious graphics, lmao.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
Is this some terrible sarcasm? Square has been pushing graphics in RPGs with FF since the Famicom.
The Final Fantasy series has been wildly inconsistent graphically since it went 3D. (FFVII was ugly as heck compared to the kind of graphics you saw on PC and N64 at the time.) Not just because the games were held back by hardware -- the actual asset quality was all over the place. Texture quality can be absolutely dismal. And model quality is all over the place. This dog in Lightning Returns is the most notorious example.
maxresdefault03qj9.jpg

You really think Microsoft would allow this? You think their executives would sit there and say, "Yes, this is acceptable asset quality for a AAA videogame in 2013. I don't see any problem with this."

Alternatively, imagine working for hypothetical MS-owned Square Enix and showing NieR: Automata to Microsoft and it looks like this. One of the many reasons why western AAA games cost so much to make is because they generally don't have textures like this. And I think this would have been a sticking point with MS-owned Square.
image1juqqu.jpg

Final Fantasy XII and its atrocious pop-in and tiny, empty levels would have been met by raised eyebrows by 2006 Microsoft. Sure, the pop-in likely would have been fixed thanks to Xbox hardware having more headroom, but it's reflective of the fundamental difference in development priorities.

Final Fantasy XII fans might not see any problem with its graphics. But the game was essentially a generation behind high end Xbox titles. It was released in 2006. The same month as The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. There is no universe in which Microsoft would have been happy with its graphics.

edit: In case some are confused, I'm not saying that the Final Fantasy series has "bad graphics". I am saying that they did not meet the minimum asset/visual fidelity quality a company like Microsoft would likely demand. In order to make a game that would meet Microsoft's expectations of visual quality -- this would cost a lot of money. These games would need to sell more copies to make their money back.

Graphics are just the tip of the iceberg. If MS owned Square, I doubt they'd be releasing games without full voice acting. Heaps of FFXII's dialogue is just text. That would never have flown under MS. But again, fixing this would have cost more money. And more money means the game has to sell more copies. And if doesn't sell enough copies MS would be unhappy.
 
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Ushay

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,358
JRPGs may not have fared well under MS, but we may have seen IPs like Legacy of Kain return.

We'll never know. It's an interesting thing to know.
 

Cloud-Hidden

Member
Oct 30, 2017
4,990
The years during which I was playing Dreamcast and reading the Official Dreamcast mag, and then the years right after that when I bought and was playing Xbox (including XBL the day it launched) and reading the official Xbox mag...

Those were the best gaming days of my life. Thanks for bringing this book to my attention OP. I'll check it out.
 

Starmud

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,444
would have been the death of sqaure, jesus... lol

MS should have bought sega post dreamcast. they supported the xbox well and they would have gained a large library of games to revisit. even if futile it could have given them a better starting point in japan and the arcade business to leverage for entry.
 

Ishiro

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,066
Lebanon
Yep, sounds like my nightmare alright.

Edit: and lol at people saying we would have gotten better graphics from them. Square has always used the best tech for FF.
 
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Crayon

Member
Oct 26, 2017
15,580
The Final Fantasy series has been wildly inconsistent graphically since it went 3D. (FFVII was ugly as heck compared to the kind of graphics you saw on PC and N64 at the time.) Not just because the games were held back by hardware -- the actual asset quality was all over the place. Texture quality can be absolutely dismal. And model quality is all over the place. This dog in Lightning Returns is the most notorious example.
maxresdefault03qj9.jpg

You really think Microsoft would allow this? You think their executives would sit there and say, "Yes, this is acceptable asset quality for a AAA videogame in 2013. I don't see any problem with this."

Alternatively, imagine working for hypothetical MS-owned Square Enix and showing NieR: Automata to Microsoft and it looks like this. One of the many reasons why western AAA games cost so much to make is because they generally don't have textures like this. And I think this would have been a sticking point with MS-owned Square.
image1juqqu.jpg

Final Fantasy XII and its atrocious pop-in and tiny, empty levels would have been met by raised eyebrows by 2006 Microsoft. Sure, the pop-in likely would have been fixed thanks to Xbox hardware having more headroom, but it's reflective of the fundamental difference in development priorities.

Final Fantasy XII fans might not see any problem with its graphics. But the game was essentially a generation behind high end Xbox titles. It was released in 2006. The same month as The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. There is no universe in which Microsoft would have been happy with its graphics.

edit: In case some are confused, I'm not saying that the Final Fantasy series has "bad graphics". I am saying that they did not meet the minimum asset/visual fidelity quality a company like Microsoft would likely demand. In order to make a game that would meet Microsoft's expectations of visual quality -- this would cost a lot of money. These games would need to sell more copies to make their money back.

Graphics are just the tip of the iceberg. If MS owned Square, I doubt they'd be releasing games without full voice acting. Heaps of FFXII's dialogue is just text. That would never have flown under MS. But again, fixing this would have cost more money. And more money means the game has to sell more copies. And if doesn't sell enough copies MS would be unhappy.

Okay so what would they have done with Nier if they saw it like that? Cancel it? Blowup the budget improving the graphics? Westernize it?

You say that ms wouldn't have nier the way it is and I agree. That's why Ms buying square would be bad.
 

Remo Williams

Self-requested ban
Banned
Jan 13, 2018
4,769
They've screwed over or abandoned almost every Japanese co-production they've attempted, several of which have pretty much refused to ever work with them again as fallout and others seemingly have felt like they were left holding the debt.

Any proof of that? I've never seen anyone proclaim anything like that, not even Level-5. Can you provide any quotes?

The closest to that that I can think of was From Software saying that Ninja Blade would probably be their last Xbox 360 exclusive, unless Microsoft agrees to foot the bill (because by that point Xbox 360 was failing hard in Japan), and even that's quite a bit different to what you're suggesting.


Even Mistwalker they seemed to drop like a hot potato the moment they got FFXIII merely multiplatform. It wasn't long after that they pulled out on that third game.

Microsoft never had anything to do with the third game (Cry On), apart from the fact that it was supposed to be an exclusive game for their console. Cry On was always going to be published by AQ Interactive.
 

Dr. Caroll

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,111
Okay so what would they have done with Nier if they saw it like that? Cancel it? Blowup the budget improving the graphics?
Modern Microsoft? Or even 1995-2000 Microsoft? They'd likely let it slide. But they would "suggest" the graphics be improved. But 2000-2015 Microsoft? Different story. And yea, people's fears about what could have happened to Square if "Middle Management is a gift from God"-era Microsoft had gotten their hands on them are not unjustified.

But there are a lot of factors. Suppose MS had given control of Square to MS Japan. That could potentially have turned out completely differently.
 
OP
OP
Dancrane212

Dancrane212

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,962
It's interesting to truly think about the ramifications of this deal had it gone through. A lot of games that exist today would probably not have been developed.

If Microsoft bought Square, then the Enix merger probably wouldn't have happened.
Lost Odyssey and Blue Dragon would have most likely not been developed, or would have been picked up by Sony for the PS3 when Mist Walkers needed funding. MS would have already had a dedicated JRPG company, they wouldn't have bothered with the Gooch titles if they already had big daddy Final Fantasy.
A lot of the smaller end titles would probably not been made. Bravely Default either wouldn't exist or it would've been an XBLA title.

I may be wrong on all of this but those were the first things that came to mind.

Even more than that I wonder what the impact of not having Spirits WIthin release and bomb at the box office would have on CGI feature films. Imagine if someone else would have stepped up to the plate instead and had success.
 

Rush_Khan

Member
Oct 26, 2017
860
Wow, if Microsoft bought Squaresoft I would probably own a bunch of Xbox consoles just for FF.

Thankfully Microsoft dodged a massive bullet coming towards them post-2006.
 
Oct 25, 2017
21,475
Sweden
Anyways, to deliver on that title's bait. As mentioned above in 1999 Microsoft had been courting companies for acquisition and SquareSoft came up primarily for getting the Final Fantasy IP. It got to the point, according to Bob McBreen, at the final meeting where the deal was to be signed the CEO of Square stood up and said that "before we sign, our banker would like to say something" to which said banker announced "we want more money" and "...just about doubled the price".

Square's banker explained that the valuation done had some errors. When asked what was missed in the valuation by Microsoft's representatives they were told "You missed that we're worth more money. We want more money".
haha ballsy gangster move
 

sir_crocodile

Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,518
You even get how Nintendo, no matter how incredibly favorable a collaborative deal was, wouldn't work with MIcrosoft for how it would look like they "lost" to them.

That sounds like a Yamauchi call. Was it the man himself who nixed it?

You really sold me on this book op, are there any Playstation or Nintendo counterparts?

There's "Game Over" by David Sheff for nintendo, but it was written a loooong time ago, think it covers up to the SNES from memory, but I read it when it came out so I don't remember much.
 

Hayeya

Member
Oct 29, 2017
3,811
Canada
In that alternate world, Square is niw sleeping next to bullfrog, westwood, pandemic,.... in the valley of death.
 

ApexNorth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,178
Wow, I am gonna pick this up. Seems super interesting, I love stuff like this.

Does anyone happen to know if there is a PlayStation equivalent?
 

semiconscious

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,140
what's weird is, i can't imagine a more microsoft-influenced iteration of final fantasy than the bro-tastic final fantasy xv :) ...
 

Charsace

Chicken Chaser
Member
Nov 22, 2017
2,871
I remember one rumor at the time with True Fantasy Online is that they were spending the MS money on other projects.
 
OP
OP
Dancrane212

Dancrane212

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,962
That sounds like a Yamauchi call. Was it the man himself who nixed it?

Doesn't attribute it to Yamauchi himself but he's mentioned as someone who was being faxed during the discussions.

You really sold me on this book op, are there any Playstation or Nintendo counterparts?

Chris Kohler's book on the rise of Japanese games might be what you're looking for at least in regards with Nintendo. It's a bit older so more of the information has surfaced over the years but it was a great read when I first went through it some years back.

It was reprinted at the end of 2016.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0486801497/?tag=era0f0-20
 
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Zappy

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
3,738
Considering how MS has treated Japanese companies over the years, i dont even want to imagine such a scenario

MS terms and conditions would have made those devs very happy. I suspect many Japanese developers would love to be brought into the MS fold and all the employment benefits that comes with that.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Because it's not unreasonable to assume that MS' attitude towards Japan and Japanese studios would change if they bought one of the largest Japanese studios.
With how Microsoft is, I would assume that Square would be dead and buried. I have no faith in MS at all with stuff like that.

There's nothing nonsensical about being bitterly disappointed in Bioware post-KOTOR.
lol yeah your posts are completely nonsensical, Bioware post KOTOR made some fantastic games.
 

Vic_Viper

Thanked By SGM
Member
Oct 25, 2017
29,062
So, signatures... and a couple hundred million. Nice one, OP

Lol that's what I was thinking. Sounds like Square got smart and pressed Microsoft for more. This merger would have been a complete disaster and would have ended horribly in the long run imo. They were smart to ask for more in case it didn't work out later on and were shut down.

How much was the Enix and Square merger for? I guess I haven't actually heard all that much about what happened aside from Square being on the verge of closing. That was a match made in heaven. Can't think of a better pairing, even outside the video game industry.

You really sold me on this book op, are there any Playstation or Nintendo counterparts?

Console Wars is probably the best look at the whole Nintendo vs Sega rivalry that looks at the beginnings of both companies pretty in depth and even Sony with the PlayStation. Don't remember how far it follows, but I'm pretty sure it goes until atleast the Dreamcast/ N64.
 

DanteLinkX

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,730
oh fuck, we actually are on the best time line here, Imagine that time line where Square made viva piñata and kinect games, Final Kinnect Fantasy omg, a chance to touch lighting lol.