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Figments

Spencer’s little helper
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,292
California
Almost two weeks ago, Microsoft announced that it will be rebuilding its in-house Edge browser from Chromium, all but ditching its EdgeHTML rendering engine. There are many reasons for the change, and the speculation goes even beyond that. Microsoft said that it will do a better job of standardizing the web; using the same open-source browser as Google's Chrome makes things easier on developers.

Former software engineering intern on the Edge team at Microsoft Joshua Bakita says otherwise though. In a post on Hacker News, Bakita says that one of the reasons for the switch was because Google kept changing up their web apps, making them not run properly on other browsers.

This is what the dude said:

For example, they may start integrating technologies for which they have exclusive, or at least 'special' access. Can you imagine if all of a sudden Google apps start performing better than anyone else's?"

This is already happening. I very recently worked on the Edge team, and one of the reasons we decided to end EdgeHTML was because Google kept making changes to its sites that broke other browsers, and we couldn't keep up. For example, they recently added a hidden empty div over YouTube videos that causes our hardware acceleration fast-path to bail (should now be fixed in Win10 Oct update). Prior to that, our fairly state-of-the-art video acceleration put us well ahead of Chrome on video playback time on battery, but almost the instant they broke things on YouTube, they started advertising Chrome's dominance over Edge on video-watching battery life. What makes it so sad, is that their claimed dominance was not due to ingenious optimization work by Chrome, but due to a failure of YouTube. On the whole, they only made the web slower.

Now while I'm not sure I'm convinced that YouTube was changed intentionally to slow Edge, many of my co-workers are quite convinced - and they're the ones who looked into it personally. To add to this all, when we asked, YouTube turned down our request to remove the hidden empty div and did not elaborate further.

And this is only one case.

What's particularly interesting about this is that whether Google did this intentionally or not, Microsoft fell into a trap that it set for itself. When Bakita says, "we couldn't keep up", and goes on to say that the issue is fixed in the Windows 10 October 2018 Update, that's actually because Microsoft set a path for itself where it could only add new features to Edge with feature updates to Windows 10. That limits the company to twice per year.

Source: https://www.neowin.net/news/former-edge-intern-says-google-sabotaged-microsofts-browser

Render me on a new engine if old.
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
Gmail runs like shit on firefox.
It's pretty much the only app i use that runs like shit on firefox compared to chrome.

I hope the EU delivers justice for that kind of shittiness, at some point.
 

Fishtank

Member
Nov 30, 2017
272
I can't feel sorry for Microsoft. Like they didn't screw companies over for decades.

No one really remembers how awful Microsoft was/is unless your an IT major and truly understand all the behind the scenes BS microsoft pulled over the years.
 

Sinfamy

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,724
They've done the same with Firefox.
Constantly push new standards, force your competition to adapt so they always play catch up and you have the upper hand.
Reminds me of Nvidia abusing tessellation so that it had an upper hand over AMD during the 400 series.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,846
I can't feel sorry for Microsoft. Like they didn't screw companies over for decades.

No one really remembers how awful Microsoft was/is unless your an IT major and truly understand all the behind the scenes BS microsoft pulled over the years.

You shouldn't feel "sorry" for a corporation. You should be pissed that Google is making the web worse out of spite.
 

Deleted member 8901

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
2,522
Millions of office workers in the world still feeling the pain of using IE11 for intranet / corporate web applications.
 

Fishtank

Member
Nov 30, 2017
272
You shouldn't feel "sorry" for a corporation. You should be pissed that Google is making the web worse out of spite.
I agree that them doing this out of spite does suck but Google has been trying to take over since they came out. I don't see why they wouldn't implement this.

Now don't get me wrong I'm not saying this is the right thing to do. But those who run corporations only have one idea. Monopolize and make money.
 

Zelas

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,020
Flags to stop auto playing videos works on Firefox and not on Chrome. Google is sabotaging themselves.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,382
Google officially replaced "Don't be Evil" with "Do the Right thing" (a Spike Lee Joint), but in reality they just decided to go ahead and be evil.
 

Deleted member 2595

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,475
Gmail runs like shit on firefox.
It's pretty much the only app i use that runs like shit on firefox compared to chrome.

I hope the EU delivers justice for that kind of shittiness, at some point.
Jesus Christ I never put this together. My Firefox crawls with all the Google apps I have to use for work
 

whatsinaname

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,070
Not sure who to trust here. Google (who I think would do something like this in a heartbeat) or Microsoft (who would also do something like this in a heartbeat).

IXw8ne2.jpg
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
They've done the same with Firefox.
Constantly push new standards, force your competition to adapt so they always play catch up and you have the upper hand.
Reminds me of Nvidia abusing tessellation so that it had an upper hand over AMD during the 400 series.

This is why Opera eventually gave up on Presto and switched to the Chrome engine.

Of course, Firefox/Mozilla/Netscape started the entire proprietary extensions/best-viewed-with mess in the first place.
 

BLEEN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
21,894
Chrome is quickly becoming the new IE.

EU is gonna have a field day with Google in years to come
Definitely. That browser has gotten worse and worse throughout the years. I haven't used Chrome in about 4 years now. It's a massive memory hog. I keep my browser open 24/7 with usually at least 10 tabs open. In Vivaldi currently with *counts* 22 tabs open for over a week I am using 837MB of RAM. If I did that in Chrome, it'd be straight up around 3.5GBs. It's insane. They need to manage their memory better.
 

Granadier

Member
Nov 4, 2018
1,605
Eh, I don't buy it.

I'm sure there's efficiencies that Google does with Chrome (or inefficiencies. the browser is a dog), but it's using Chromium which is fully open source and gets vetted by thousands of devs. Also Safari and Firefox were apparently not impacted by this supposed change the intern talks about, and they likely would've been had it been a deliberate issue introduced by Google.
My bet would be that Microsoft made this decision because they realized it was cheaper to adopt Chromium than to build their own new standard.

Honestly though, the last company I'd want standardizing the net is Google because of their business model. But until the big 3 decide to work together on a single standard it's gonna be a back and forth battle.

They did this with Safari and 1440p video.
Safari is limited to 1440p because it uses h.264/5 instead of VP9. Youtube doesn't support that codec at 4k bitrates because of the increased computation power it requires.
 

Mortemis

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,420
I'm glad I'm not deeply ingrained with google products. I haven't noticed much performance issues with google stuff on safari, but if it became really bad I'd rather just stop using them than be forced to use chrome with them.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Yeah, an intern who worked for one company for a couple has months clearly cracked the code.

It's hardly a secret. Anyone can look at the page source and see that Edge (and previously Opera, etc.) is served different (inferior) code. If it takes an intern to raise awareness, I'm okay with that.

Safari is limited to 1440p because it uses h.264/5 instead of VP9. Youtube doesn't support that codec at 4k bitrates because of the increased computation power it requires.

Everyone's got hardware encode/decode for h.264. Google doesn't support 4K h.264 because it's not their codec (YouTube's support of h.264 for lower resolutions predates Google's push for VP9).
 

spam musubi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,381
It's hardly a secret. Anyone can look at the page source and see that Edge (and previously Opera, etc.) is served different (inferior) code. If it takes an intern to raise awareness, I'm okay with that.



Everyone's got hardware encode/decode for h.264. Google doesn't support 4K h.264 because it's not their codec (YouTube's support of h.264 for lower resolutions predates Google's push for VP9).

Serving different code to different browsers is not unusual, because they support different functionality. It's extremely common to see production javascript code that has a bunch of checks based on what the browser is and render stuff differently based on that.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Serving different code to different browsers is not unusual, because they support different functionality. It's extremely common to see production javascript code that has a bunch of checks based on what the browser is and render stuff differently based on that.

In the case of Opera in the Presto days, Google served a really junky, cut-down version of Gmail and other services for years, even when simply changing the browser string showed that Opera could handle the full version of the site(s) perfectly fine. Contacting Google to change the check/behavior accomplished exactly nothing.
 

squeakywheel

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,099
Don't doubt this could happen but I'll wait for other sources than a salty Edge intern and pro-MS sites and editors.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,764
Eh, I don't buy it.

I'm sure there's efficiencies that Google does with Chrome (or inefficiencies. the browser is a dog), but it's using Chromium which is fully open source and gets vetted by thousands of devs. Also Safari and Firefox were apparently not impacted by this supposed change the intern talks about, and they likely would've been had it been a deliberate issue introduced by Google.
My bet would be that Microsoft made this decision because they realized it was cheaper to adopt Chromium than to build their own new standard.

Honestly though, the last company I'd want standardizing the net is Google because of their business model. But until the big 3 decide to work together on a single standard it's gonna be a back and forth battle.


Safari is limited to 1440p because it uses h.264/5 instead of VP9. Youtube doesn't support that codec at 4k bitrates because of the increased computation power it requires.

Doesnt Netflix work fine with 4k in safari but not chrome using h.264/5?
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,789
I'm not sure it's intentional but even Google's devrel routinely complains that their product teams do not test in all browsers and therefore create products that do not work or work poorly in other browsers. Web development is hard, even Google is not so good at it.
 

Ahhthe90s

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,294
Google is one of the most anti-consumer companies today, if not the most.

I hate it that they've locked me into their ecosystem, it would be a disaster to leave it now (not sure I could even if I tried).

Fuck Google.
 

Pokemaniac

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,944
I'd definitely be willing to believe Google did that after some of the user agent sniffing crap I've seen them pull over the years. This is exactly why Microsoft switching to Blink is bad.

Serving different code to different browsers is not unusual, because they support different functionality. It's extremely common to see production javascript code that has a bunch of checks based on what the browser is and render stuff differently based on that.
The problem is that Google is perfectly happy serving ancient versions of their services to browsers that aren't theirs for no good reason. Up until a couple months ago, they were serving an absolutely ancient version of Google Search to Firefox on Android which was missing a ton of features and had a low rez Google logo to add insult to injury. They haven't even fully fixed it either. Image search, for example, is still garbage on mobile Firefox.
 

Antrax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,296
Google is a trash fire these days. Of the 5 big tech companies, I only trust Facebook less than Alphabet (Google).
 

SJurgenson

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,239
The 1990s.

You don't remember proprietary Netscape HTML extensions and Best Viewed with Netscape banners on websites?

Look, Netscape's BLINK tag was an obvious innovation. It was Microsoft's MARQUEE that was a proprietary cancer upon HTML.
Being more serious, it's not fair to claim Mozilla/Firefox do the same as Netscape's did
 

Sandstar

Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,747
I like how people are bashing MS for something today that we would find unfathomable (including a browers with an OS)
 

GeoNeo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,452
Fuck Google. Google has slowing down other browsers on purpose for a while now "breaking" shit on purpose to give their own Browser an upper hand.

This company will end up making peak shithead MS look like fucking angles.