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ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
Similar frequencies to the docked Switch.
but we're talking about handheld mode (the mode where power draw would even matter). near-docked clocks at handheld more for the same power draw or above-handheld mode clocks for slightly better performance and better battery life. or option 3: same clocks, better battery, no active cooling for handheld mode
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
Those numbers I gave were from your benchmark where Max Q draws an average of 6 watts, the CPU draws an average of 0.45 watts and the GPU is drawing an average of 2.1 watts. The Max power draw in the test for Max Q is 8.1 watts for the system, but this is peak consumption. Switch docked with lower clocks isn't close to any of this, with a power draw of 11 watts, yeah there is certainly more going on with the Switch, but the difference here is closing in on two times, and that is substantial enough to say there is a difference in 16nm vs 20nm... I mean we know that the SoC consumes 4 watts less with portable clocks and the screen being on, and that 7.1 watt power draw I'm talking about is only 1 watt less than the Tegra X2 system's peak power draw.

I don't know how to have this conversation with you, but I don't think your idea is really valid, not enough to shut down ilikefeet's speculation about a passively cooled Switch on 12nm with portable clocks.
I'm just gonna quote my post again because you always distort the meaning of anything that isn't quoted each passing post. What you said is basically like saying "If I measure the Switch playing Breath of the Wild for one minute and idling in the menu for another minute and make an average, it averages 8W". It's meaningless. Not long ago you were saying the 7.5W figure for the Jetson Tx2 was for the whole dev board, then you said it never reached its specified TDP, now you bring up the average of that measurement where only a fraction is even compute-heavy.
https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=jetson-tegra-x2&num=3

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That's power consumption during bus read and write, texture read and GPU compute test, for the Jetson Tx2 in Max-Q mode. (The closest we have in the Linux space to a 16nm Tegra X1, very close indeed) The module draws about 7.8W on average during the GPU compute test, even when the CPU is basically idling, as shown by it only consuming 0.4W at the same time. Those 7.8W are also what the combination of SoC, DRAM and wireless controllers in the Switch must use under full gaming load. So go figure, to me it looks like it wouldn't be much of an improvement at all.
You can clearly see a stretch of time where a GPU-only load draws close to 8W, with the peaks to 8.2W you mention. That is, without putting load on the CPU, and without moving heavy assets around memory, since it's a synthetic matrix sum and multiplication test. I think it's safe to assume that, under the load of a demanding game, the Jetson Tx2 would draw above that "close to 8W" figure at Max-Q clocks.

Technically nothing is stopping a passively cooled undocked-only Switch with the current Switch. Make it aluminum, make the whole back be a heatspreader, and you are good to go. But if we are talking about a Psvita form factor device, I just don't believe it. There is no proof out there that the Tegra X2 is more power efficient than what there is in the Switch, no matter whether that's 20nm, 16nm or fairy dust. We have hard evidence on the Tegra X2, we have tests, we can all see them, but you are choosing not to. You are willingly choosing to ignore evidence and follow baseless imaginations of what could be possible.
 

Fourth Storm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
325
We'll all find out this year when this more portable Switch is revealed. I am still pondering whether they want to remove the fan or not. On one side, you have the fact that it would reduce costs, and in theory, allow the device to be slimmer. On the other hand, do they really want to cut the defining feature of the Switch and forsake docked mode? Also, how much thinner do you really want to make a gaming device? The 3DS is uncomfortable to play for long sessions and the JoyCons are really as small/thin a controller as many will tolerate.

I say they keep the fan and have it only spinning in docked mode. That way, they get the best of both worlds. Longer battery life while portable and still the performance while docked. They'll probably release a new dock and sell it separately.

It's not outside the realm of possibility to make it portable-only however. Having multiple devices that share a library is what most of us expected before the nature of NX became more clear. It is what Iwata envisioned. So there's nothing wrong with it in essence. Nintendo have made clear that they view Switch as a home console. A home console that can be taken on the go. And while docked, it draws only slightly less than the original Wii, so it's right in line with their preexisting concept of a home console.

Anyway, I will likely buy one, especially if they offer some cool color options.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
We'll all find out this year when this more portable Switch is revealed. I am still pondering whether they want to remove the fan or not. On one side, you have the fact that it would reduce costs, and in theory, allow the device to be slimmer. On the other hand, do they really want to cut the defining feature of the Switch and forsake docked mode? Also, how much thinner do you really want to make a gaming device? The 3DS is uncomfortable to play for long sessions and the JoyCons are really as small/thin a controller as many will tolerate.

I say they keep the fan and have it only spinning in docked mode. That way, they get the best of both worlds. Longer battery life while portable and still the performance while docked. They'll probably release a new dock and sell it separately.

It's not outside the realm of possibility to make it portable-only however. Having multiple devices that share a library is what most of us expected before the nature of NX became more clear. It is what Iwata envisioned. So there's nothing wrong with it in essence. Nintendo have made clear that they view Switch as a home console. A home console that can be taken on the go. And while docked, it draws only slightly less than the original Wii, so it's right in line with their preexisting concept of a home console.

Anyway, I will likely buy one, especially if they offer some cool color options.

I still think it can be feasible to make a fan-less Switch usable in docked mode. A die shrink to 12nm alone may not be enough but if they make a clamshell device that spreads out the heat generated from the screen, so that could be enough. Or put a small fan in a new dock. They will need to sell a new dock regardless, since a smaller Switch will not be able to be pulled out of the old dock.

If all else fails they can just enable docked mode with handheld clocks. That will obviously not be ideal since you'll generally have crappy picture quality on the TV but I believe that's a better solution than just nixing one of the Switch's primary selling points completely.
 

Fourth Storm

Member
Oct 25, 2017
325
I still think it can be feasible to make a fan-less Switch usable in docked mode. A die shrink to 12nm alone may not be enough but if they make a clamshell device that spreads out the heat generated from the screen, so that could be enough. Or put a small fan in a new dock. They will need to sell a new dock regardless, since a smaller Switch will not be able to be pulled out of the old dock.

If all else fails they can just enable docked mode with handheld clocks. That will obviously not be ideal since you'll generally have crappy picture quality on the TV but I believe that's a better solution than just nixing one of the Switch's primary selling points completely.

Yeah, those are possibilities. My expectations as of now, though, are that they want this new Switch to still pretty much be recognizable as a Switch. So I don't think they are ready to introduce a clamshell device. That would also mean reverting back to circle pads (unless there is a non-awkward solution to that problem I'm not thinking of) and I don't think anyone wants that.

I have a feeling they experimented with putting a fan in the dock and it just doesn't work as well as having a fan in there close to the heatsink. Speaking of heat, something alot of people don't realize or have forgotten, is that the Switch does have a large aluminum plate covering pretty much the entire back of the device. It's there right under the plastic. So speculating that an aluminum plate will help them passively cool the device without a die shrink is a moot point.

Finally, I expect 16nm even though 12nm has been available for some time and is basically the same process with a different transistor library. I've been following Nintendo tech too long. They have the building blocks already with Tegra X2 and they are not going to spend the extra R&D on something that gives a ~20% gain or whatever it is. Using the work put into Tegra X2 was likely the plan all along.

My two cents. As I said, we'll find out soon enough I have a feeling. Seems like the reporting on this device is starting to pick up again now that the holidays are behind us.
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
Yeah, those are possibilities. My expectations as of now, though, are that they want this new Switch to still pretty much be recognizable as a Switch. So I don't think they are ready to introduce a clamshell device. That would also mean reverting back to circle pads (unless there is a non-awkward solution to that problem I'm not thinking of) and I don't think anyone wants that.

I have a feeling they experimented with putting a fan in the dock and it just doesn't work as well as having a fan in there close to the heatsink. Speaking of heat, something alot of people don't realize or have forgotten, is that the Switch does have a large aluminum plate covering pretty much the entire back of the device. It's there right under the plastic. So speculating that an aluminum plate will help them passively cool the device without a die shrink is a moot point.

Finally, I expect 16nm even though 12nm has been available for some time and is basically the same process with a different transistor library. I've been following Nintendo tech too long. They have the building blocks already with Tegra X2 and they are not going to spend the extra R&D on something that gives a ~20% gain or whatever it is. Using the work put into Tegra X2 was likely the plan all along.

My two cents. As I said, we'll find out soon enough I have a feeling. Seems like the reporting on this device is starting to pick up again now that the holidays are behind us.

It's not perfect but this is what I've been picturing when I say clamshell:

ALVd6IO.png
 

Skittzo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,037
Doesn't look good/Do not want. Perhaps a Clamshell where you can use the upper part as kickstand.

Yeah it doesn't look great. One of the points of it though (IMO) is being able to spread out the internals into two sections so that you have better heat distribution. Making the top just a kickstand wouldn't really do that.

I'm sure someone with more skill and imagination can make a better looking mockup with that same concept. I never claimed to be good at mockups!
 

RPGamer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,435
Yeah it doesn't look great. One of the points of it though (IMO) is being able to spread out the internals into two sections so that you have better heat distribution. Making the top just a kickstand wouldn't really do that.

I'm sure someone with more skill and imagination can make a better looking mockup with that same concept. I never claimed to be good at mockups!


I'm just not a fan of those clamshells where the screen is on the top. I already didn't really like the New 3DS XL, it's uncomfortable imo, at least compared to the normal Switch design or Vita design. Honestly i don't see a clamshell design if it's not just for Kickstand and safety reasons and very light.
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
They would have me by the balls by announcing a more powerful Switch capable of playing BotW at 60 fps in docked mode.
They'd have to change some of the game physics and gameplay for this as most interactions and enemies are optimized for 30fps. It's not like Fortnite or Doom. I think it would be more hassle for them in the long run, and its Nintendo of all people who are slow to the optimization party. At best, I could see Nintendo increase the resolution to a solid 1080p and stable 30fps framerate all around, and maybe reduce pop ups/increase draw distance. I'd be more than okay with that. But even then sadly I think expecting Nintendo will do this is just keeping my hopes up too high. I'd replay botw again for sure if they did this.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,129
Limburg
Clamshell?

And y'all want it to be MORE portable? How are these things possible? Why the hell would you add a hinge and extra components? Just to avoid using a dock? Smh
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
Yeah, those are possibilities. My expectations as of now, though, are that they want this new Switch to still pretty much be recognizable as a Switch. So I don't think they are ready to introduce a clamshell device. That would also mean reverting back to circle pads (unless there is a non-awkward solution to that problem I'm not thinking of) and I don't think anyone wants that.

I have a feeling they experimented with putting a fan in the dock and it just doesn't work as well as having a fan in there close to the heatsink. Speaking of heat, something alot of people don't realize or have forgotten, is that the Switch does have a large aluminum plate covering pretty much the entire back of the device. It's there right under the plastic. So speculating that an aluminum plate will help them passively cool the device without a die shrink is a moot point.

Finally, I expect 16nm even though 12nm has been available for some time and is basically the same process with a different transistor library. I've been following Nintendo tech too long. They have the building blocks already with Tegra X2 and they are not going to spend the extra R&D on something that gives a ~20% gain or whatever it is. Using the work put into Tegra X2 was likely the plan all along.

My two cents. As I said, we'll find out soon enough I have a feeling. Seems like the reporting on this device is starting to pick up again now that the holidays are behind us.
I doubt it's Tegra X2, simply because there is no code for Tegra X2 in the firmware but there is code for Tegra Mariko, whatever that ends up being.
 

taggen86

Member
Mar 3, 2018
464
Now you can test yourself how a future switch pro would improve current games using overclocking. Overclocking the switch GPU will increase handheld resolution in games with dynamic resolution scaling and reduce frame rate drops in other games at the cost of faster battery drain. Some games (e.g. Wolfenstein) with high max resolutions even benefit from the 768mhz GPU OC. After using it a week or so I really recommend it. Really nice to get rid of that blurriness. You can also downclock the switch to reduce battery drain.

The OC mod is available here. https://gbatemp.net/threads/freebird-switch-clock-speed-control-sysmodule.530641/#post-8501530 The sysmodule/service allows you to use any GPU, CPU and/or ram clock speed he has found on the Switch using his interface.
 
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ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
Now you can test yourself how a future switch pro would improve current games using overclocking. Overclocking the switch GPU will increase handheld resolution in games with dynamic resolution scaling and reduce frame rate drops in other games at the cost of faster battery drain. Some games (e.g. Wolfenstein) with high max resolutions even benefit from the 768mhz GPU OC. After using it a week or so I really recommend it. Really nice to get rid of that blurriness. You can also downclock the switch to reduce battery drain.

The OC mod is available here. https://gbatemp.net/threads/freebird-switch-clock-speed-control-sysmodule.530641/#post-8501530 The sysmodule/service allows you to use any GPU, CPU and/or ram clock speed he has found on the Switch using his interface.
What's the highest clock settings that can be done with the mod? Is the max 768 mHZ/393GFLOPs?

Hmm has anyone tested the temp of the switch in handheld mode settings with docked specs?
 

z0m3le

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,418
What's the highest clock settings that can be done with the mod? Is the max 768 mHZ/393GFLOPs?

Hmm has anyone tested the temp of the switch in handheld mode settings with docked specs?
It should be the same or cooler than the temp of the Switch when simply docked, since the dock doesn't help cool the system.
 

taggen86

Member
Mar 3, 2018
464
The temps should be allright since it already uses 768 mhz when docked and airflow should be better without the dock.

Max is around 1000 mhz (tegra stock)

What's the highest clock settings that can be done with the mod? Is the max 768 mHZ/393GFLOPs?

Hmm has anyone tested the temp of the switch in handheld mode settings with docked specs?
 

Mr Swine

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
6,045
Sweden
Now you can test yourself how a future switch pro would improve current games using overclocking. Overclocking the switch GPU will increase handheld resolution in games with dynamic resolution scaling and reduce frame rate drops in other games at the cost of faster battery drain. Some games (e.g. Wolfenstein) with high max resolutions even benefit from the 768mhz GPU OC. After using it a week or so I really recommend it. Really nice to get rid of that blurriness. You can also downclock the switch to reduce battery drain.

The OC mod is available here. https://gbatemp.net/threads/freebird-switch-clock-speed-control-sysmodule.530641/#post-8501530 The sysmodule/service allows you to use any GPU, CPU and/or ram clock speed he has found on the Switch using his interface.

So does that work on every game or is it only a few of them?
 

Moi_85

Member
Nov 26, 2018
68
So does that work on every game or is it only a few of them?
Obviously if a game runs at maximum resolution of the screen (720p) and at the maximum framerate selected on the game (60 or 30fps), then it will not be a improvement.

Per example: Mario Kart 8 Deluxe, that game always runs at 720/60fps (it's on WiiU where works at 720/59fps), a higher clock on handheld mode will be a waste of battery.
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
The temps should be allright since it already uses 768 mhz when docked and airflow should be better without the dock.

Max is around 1000 mhz (tegra stock)
Just wondering if you or anybody has tested the switch at max clocks. Would be interesting to see performance in framerate and resolution, even if its a 30% increase above Switch/Nvidia Shield's bottleneck at 393 GFLOPS/768 MHz, as well as temperature and watt usage...
 

taggen86

Member
Mar 3, 2018
464
I think few games benefit from overclocking above 768 mhz, since it already maxes our frame rates or resolutions in handheld mode in most games according to my tests. The only use case would be a few games that have frame drops or do not max out dynamic resolution in docked mode. Wolfenstein and doom are two examples where 768 mhz is not enough to get 720p locked and here overclocking above 768 will increase resolution. However, while I have spent many hours gaming on the go with 768 mhz (which seems to be safe), I have not experimented so much with clocks above it. We know that the switch fan can handle 768 mhz (since it uses it docked), but clocks above that is uncharted territory and anything could happen to your switch.

Just wondering if you or anybody has tested the switch at max clocks. Would be interesting to see performance in framerate and resolution, even if its a 30% increase above Switch/Nvidia Shield's bottleneck at 393 GFLOPS/768 MHz, as well as temperature and watt usage...
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
I wonder if digital foundry knows about this. Would be amazing if they try this with several games(botw, Firewatch, Doom, xenoblade 2 etc), but I'm not sure if they are a fan of mods. Shit man we can see which games are really GPU intensive and benefit the most.
 

Mistermetz

Member
Jun 17, 2018
290
Now you can test yourself how a future switch pro would improve current games using overclocking. Overclocking the switch GPU will increase handheld resolution in games with dynamic resolution scaling and reduce frame rate drops in other games at the cost of faster battery drain. Some games (e.g. Wolfenstein) with high max resolutions even benefit from the 768mhz GPU OC. After using it a week or so I really recommend it. Really nice to get rid of that blurriness. You can also downclock the switch to reduce battery drain.

The OC mod is available here. https://gbatemp.net/threads/freebird-switch-clock-speed-control-sysmodule.530641/#post-8501530 The sysmodule/service allows you to use any GPU, CPU and/or ram clock speed he has found on the Switch using his interface.

What's the battery life compared to standard clock speed? Can you make a comparison?
 

Moi_85

Member
Nov 26, 2018
68
I wonder if digital foundry knows about this. Would be amazing if they try this with several games(botw, Firewatch, Doom, xenoblade 2 etc), but I'm not sure if they are a fan of mods. Shit man we can see which games are really GPU intensive and benefit the most.
That would be a great video!

(of course only testing the handheld mode, it's understandable that one doesn't want to try overclock in dock mode, in handheld the usage battery is the only problem, but to go beyond of the switch maximun clock can be dangerous for the device)
 

cucholix

Member
Oct 30, 2017
935
Edit: beaten by @teggen86 :p, still valid the "Per title clock specs"

Homebrew devs are starting to experiment with higher GPU clock

I wonder if Nintendo will go this route with a redesign, it would keep the same CPU-GPU configuration with overclocking only, I tested CPU overclocking and there are some dramatic improvements in speed for PSX, N64, MAME emulation for example.

Some people playing with higher GPU clocks benefits from higher resolution in games with dynamic resolution, seems some games are highly scalable while others crash because they have hardcoded specs.

https://gbatemp.net/threads/gpu-handheld-mode-overclock-soon-available.529123/page-14

Noteworthy features:
- Config Hot-reload
- Per Title clock specifications
- Max 460 MHz GPU undocked (up to max if docked, later we will probably allow docked clocks if charging [but not higher], in handheld).
 

taggen86

Member
Mar 3, 2018
464
Running wolfenstein 768 mhz handheld reduces battery life from 2.5-3 hours to around 1.5-2 hours from my experience of using it. No problem if you have a powerbank. I will never play it in stock clocks again. It really looks amazing


What's the battery life compared to standard clock speed? Can you make a comparison?
 
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Lwill

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,627
Running wolfenstein 768 mhz handheld reduces battery life from 2.5-3 hours to around 1.5-2 hours from my experience of using it. No problem if you have a powerbank. I will never play it in stock clocks again. It really looks amazing
I see. That battery life is low, but it is interesting to know that the Switch is sufficient enough to run games at the docked clock speed without visible short-term damage
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
Somebody made a comparison pic of Doom in handheld mode.. 307MHz and 768MHz (docked speed)

mcCCM3z.jpg

https://www.reddit.com/r/SwitchHaxi...mparing_doom_2016_on_switch_before_and_after/

Is it worth shortening your battery life to play doom handheld with docked clocks? You be the judge. But I can't wait for Switch pro to look like this native on its handheld mode! The more I think about it though, the less likely I think Nintendo will update their 1st party gen games to play odyssey and botw at 1080p on switch pro docked.. But Doom and fortnite.. I can see devs releasing a patch, though I wonder how that will work out..Especially if Switch Pro gets somewhere between xbone and ps base specs. Not just 60fps but 900p dynamic resolution to boot is a major upgrade. I don't thin any dev made a drastic performance patch on a console like that, but I could be wrong.. Closest was fornite double framerate for ps4/xbone from 30 to 60fps..
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
My son's Switch completely died. Wont power on after multiple attempts at resets. Do we know when the new model should be hitting? I'll probably wait until then to replace it for him. Being out $300+ sucks.
 

BoosterDuck

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,681
just give me a Vita shaped Switch and I'll be a happy camper

I can make due with a clamshell design too but Nintendo's track record with hinges haven't been stellar
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,018
Florida
So update... oddly after being completely dead and refusing to boot for 2 weeks it is now taking a charge and working again. WTF? $300 saved, but confusion remains.
 
Oct 27, 2017
20,764
I wonder, since most of Nikkei's Nintendo rumors come true (DSi leaked almost a year in advance) what Nintendo can cut to make the switch cheaper.

They can:

  1. Shrink the SOC, using less energy, eliminating the fan if all gains are applied to saving energy
  2. Reduce screen size
  3. Make joy cons attached and not have HD rumble, no IR sensor so it wouldn't work with LABO, 1-2 Switch
I don't necessarily want them to do any of this but if Nikkei reported it there is a stronger chance of that coming true than anything

I know at launch a Japanese firm estimated that the joy cons cost $45 to make, which I doubt (they aren't selling controllers at a loss, they have to sell them at a profit, at least double cost) but do we have any good estimates on cost of Joy Cons? My guess is if individual units sell for $50 and bundles $80, that it would be no more than $20 per Con, $40 for a bundle

They can still ship a dock with a smaller unit, somewhat saving the "switch" aspect. My guess is that the smaller joy cons would work across all models and normal cons would work too, just impact portability

They could have these smaller, less feature rich Joy Cons still detach, just not have HD Rumble to lower costs.
 

bmfrosty

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,894
SF Bay Area
I know at launch a Japanese firm estimated that the joy cons cost $45 to make, which I doubt (they aren't selling controllers at a loss, they have to sell them at a profit, at least double cost) but do we have any good estimates on cost of Joy Cons? My guess is if individual units sell for $50 and bundles $80, that it would be no more than $20 per Con, $40 for a bundle
Ignore the experts because you know better.
 

ShadowFox08

Banned
Nov 25, 2017
3,524
Question: if Switch Pro gets the 2.3x increase in bandwidth from Tegra X2 (from 25 to 58GB/s), would that be enough to match base xbone's for ports or would it always be at a disadvantage, even if Pro gets 1TFLOP GPU, A73 CPU, and 8GB DDR4 Ram?
 

SiG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,485
Here's a guess:

The new Switch model will not only be smaller, but have a better undocked resolution that the original, and is the version compatible with this new VR system.
 
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