• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

What do you think could be the memory setup of your preferred console, or one of the new consoles?

  • GDDR6

    Votes: 566 41.0%
  • GDDR6 + DDR4

    Votes: 540 39.2%
  • HBM2

    Votes: 53 3.8%
  • HBM2 + DDR4

    Votes: 220 16.0%

  • Total voters
    1,379
Status
Not open for further replies.

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,481
Seattle
Cerny, more than anyone who is posting in this thread or anyone who speaks publicly about consoles in the industry, knows well the difference between hardware accelerated ray-tracing, and software ray-tracing. As the architect of the system, he would know himself precisely the amount of area and type of hardware accelerated Ray Tracing they support. So I found the *absence* of clarity on this point, particularly coming from him directly, to be extremely telling. Or to put it bluntly: Cerny chose not to be clear on this point and he would know the answer first hand.

Albert, as much as I respect that you're willing to come here and be enthusiastic about the generation we see unfolding, as someone who clearly has been involved firsthand in a console rollout - I would expect less naïveté on your part (unless you're being disingenuous, which I hope isn't the case.) Yes, of course Mark Cerny knows the intimate details of the next Playstation's architecture. He also knows how the game of incremental reveal is played, and has well-defined limits that have been discussed to death internally about what Sony is and is not willing to disclose at this point.

Not discussing the details of the raytracing solution they've chosen tells us nothing other than they don't believe it's in their interest to reveal those details just yet. Sony has a progressive rollout planned, which is doubtless informed by known events like a keynote presence at E3 by Microsoft. Selective omission of obvious details could be to bait out more information from a competitor. It could be to leave an opportunity for a big reveal at another time. It could be to avoid communicating broader strategy details that are related. It could have been intended to come across in the article but the journalist didn't happen to reflect every detail of the conversation. There are dozens of reasons more likely than trying to hide some weakness. Why would they bring up ray tracing at all if it wasn't a point of strength in their minds? Controlling the conversation is an age old game and essentially Marketing 101.

Frankly, I expect everyone to be disappointed when neither console is capable of using raytracing as a full-scene rendering strategy to replace conventional rasterization. So the trick is going to be showcasing it in a good light (pun not intended originally, but what the heck...)
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Vega56 has RT hardware?


I could have confirmed it for you in 2016 if you had asked me. Not saying I am "questioning" Matt... just saying confirming BC doesn' have as much weight.


Haha... and that is how new rumors are born..... how could you read his detailed post and arrived at that conclusion?

It is hardware that can do RT, so it's not incorrect to say that stadia has RT hardware.
My point is, from what Sony, MS and even what matt has said about raytracing, they could just have Navi with some small tweaks, and they would not of been dishonest about there raytracing statements.
 

bear force one

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,305
Orlando
Trust, but verify. Your post is a perfect example of why traceability is important. It's so easy to get facts incorrect. Sony/Cerny never mentioned Nvidia RTX as a reference point. That wasn't even part of the original article. The article author added it after first publishing as a reference point to the current implementation of Ray tracing.



This is how I view the topic.

Matt has a great track record, but I don't believe it's perfect. He seems like a nice person. But he is not a direct source, he is not Sony/Cerny. We don't even know who he is, or what he does. The chain of traceability is broken. I choose to 100% trust what can be verified. You encourage others to believe him, and berate those who are skeptical; if you don't require verification of facts that's fine, but don't get mad when others do.

Right now I'm am choosing to believe his comments about how RT in both consoles, but I'm not 100%. Until directly confirmed, it's about levels of confidence.
No one is mad. I pointed out a fact. Matt confirmed it. At this point in life he's more reliable that Penello. Choose whatever you like. That's what we do here.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
The Gonzalo/Ariel link to the PS5 was always a "maybe" at best. I don't remember Komachi being as sure about it as we think about it now.
As for the die size... I'm pretty sure that 320mm2-ish figure in the pastebin (seriously, we're still doing those? sigh) is straight up just adding the RX5700 die size (251) with the speculated ~70mm2 that an 8-core Zen2 CPU would occupy. That's it, there's nothing more to it. Which is a problem.
Because I'm pretty sure no next gen console APU would be that straightforward. 40CUs is the absolute minimum that'll be in, disabled CUs not being accounted for, and did we forget about the RT hardware? Where is that going, or do you seriously think they'll lock even more CUs for that?

Here's the thing. Considering the estimates of Scarlett's die size being 380mm2 or likely bigger, and I have no reason to think that render MS showed is so misleading because they were faithful for the X's video, maybe it's time we seriously consider that these consoles will have rather large SOCs.

And before you try to come up with reasons to say how this not economically feasible or that it's not possible because of heat or power consumption, consider this...
We've spent literally tens of thousands of posts being told pretty confidently the following:
- You will be lucky if you've got machines capable of 8 or 10 GCN TFLOPS
- SSDs are a pipe dream.
- There's zero chance consoles will have ray-tracing.
You've been wrong on all counts. Hell, I believed two of those three points. But we're wrong. So... Maybe it's about time we consider that these machines will not be designed in the same way the previous gen's consoles were made. Crazy idea, huh?


I'm sure Phil Spencer would love to answer investors' questions as to why one of MS's big cash cows is not coming to the successor of one the most platforms for that game with: "CONSOLE WARZ!!!"

No, perhaps increasing hardware sales and subscriber count, would please shareholders.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,781

Well I wish you would've said so!
lol


On another note, I gotta say reading through the madness in this thread is almost starting to become a highlight of my days. Rarely does a day go by where I'm not chuckling at the leaps of logic some people are willing to make to support their point. I love y'all!!! :)
 

disco_potato

Member
Nov 16, 2017
3,145
Extra resources.

It looks like cost is the primary consideration. It does make me wonder then, either MS or Sony (or both) could definitely go north of 200W (peak) system if it had a well designed vapour chamber (VC) solution (if cost was not a factor). As it is, I do wonder whether VC will be implemented as standard on next gen systems.


Vapor chambers work best when air flow goes across them, as in from left to right(look at 5700/5700xt implementation above), rather than straight from top, downward onto the heatsink(XoneX). In a console setting, vc can't be implemented optimally unless the goal is a quieter console.
Heatpipe heatsink with an adequate, large fan, even with low rpm would be the best choice for noise and heat dissipation. The problem with such small factors though, is that a large and heavy heatsink adds up when it comes to logistics.
 

AegonSnake

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,566
It is hardware that can do RT, so it's not incorrect to say that stadia has RT hardware.
My point is, from what Sony, MS and even what matt has said about raytracing, they could just have Navi with some small tweaks, and they would not of been dishonest about there raytracing statements.
you are just being disingenous now come on. MS said HARDWARE ACCELERATED ray tracing. Matt said Hardware RT. what more do you want.

edit: just saw that you got banned. nvm, didnt mean to pile on.
 

Heckler456

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,256
Belgium
It is hardware that can do RT, so it's not incorrect to say that stadia has RT hardware.
My point is, from what Sony, MS and even what matt has said about raytracing, they could just have Navi with some small tweaks, and they would not of been dishonest about there raytracing statements.

Ray-tracing hardware is special-purpose computer hardware designed for accelerating ray tracing calculations.

It's as good of a definition as you're gonna get. When people talk about "ray tracing hardware", they're talking about bespoke hardware, not hardware that can technically also perform that function to whatever degree. It's safe to assume that this is what Matt meant.
 

Wandu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,163
I've been reading the last couple of pages about if Sony is using HW RT or not. One thing that hasn't been brought up is the fact that MS has been saying "hardware-accelerated raytracing", but what does that exactly mean? They didn't specify that the hardware was specifically accelerating visual raytracing? It could be an audio chip. Even then, they didn't say that either whereas Cerny in the Wired article described 3D audio and its RT capabilities. Just saying "hardware-accelerated raytracing" in the video sounded more like a checkbox instead of actually saying what its going to do.

I feel Sony gave more info in that aspect IMO.
 

Albert Penello

Verified
Nov 2, 2017
320
Redmond, WA
Albert, as much as I respect that you're willing to come here and be enthusiastic about the generation we see unfolding, as someone who clearly has been involved firsthand in a console rollout - I would expect less naïveté on your part (unless you're being disingenuous, which I hope isn't the case.) Yes, of course Mark Cerny knows the intimate details of the next Playstation's architecture. He also knows how the game of incremental reveal is played, and has well-defined limits that have been discussed to death internally about what Sony is and is not willing to disclose at this point.

I'm gonna bow out until things cool down. Earlier in the thread, it felt like there was a good discussion but it's starting to feel a lot more heated right now, with lines being drawn and things taken out of context which is not something I want to get in the middle of again.

You and I are actually making the same points. There are plenty of reasons Cerny may not have been clear, and at no point did I accuse him of anything untoward. I'm not being naive or disingenuous. You're totally right - maybe he assumed it would be taken the way he meant it, maybe he was intending to set expectations, maybe he wanted to encourage the speculation. I dunno, but I totally agree with you. I'm not questioning his integrity.

I believe the PS5 will have HW RT.
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
Or is Sony working for him?

Matt = Kaz confirmed!!

PS: In all seriousness he doesn't work for either of them because he has/has had lots of info from both MS and Sony.
In all seriousness, I didn't want put any shade on Matt. However for me everything is in a state of rumor until it is confirmed by MS or Sony or leaked documentation can be proved as legit. I am just irritated by people using his statements as a fact by stating "he confirmed it".
 

bcatwilly

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,483
One thing that I have a strong suspicion Microsoft will have are some dedicated cores similar in purpose to the Nvidia Tensor cores, which will help to enable AI processing for things like denoising, anti-aliasing and super resolution (super sampling). Phil Spencer mentioned last E3 when they first talked about next generation consoles that they were bringing the full weight of Microsoft technology to things, with a specific reference to AI. Microsoft has also released a machine learning API (DirectML) this spring. This is an area where they should definitely have an advantage in the research, and it seems reasonable to expect some possible silicon to back this up. Things like this could explain a larger die size for Scarlett for example.

Given what we know publicly about Navi now it doesn't seem reasonable to think that either side will have super high TFLOPS counts for large advantages on that front over the other, and a reasonable assumption is that both consoles are targeting a baseline performance profile of trying to support 4K 60 gaming. Note that doesn't mean of course that every developer or game will target that, rather that is the likely baseline target. So you end up with diminishing returns above that baseline profile, and things such as the type of custom silicon that I described or something that Sony does are likely to impact the overall day to day gaming experience more than simple TFLOPS that should not differ one way or another that much.
 

EvilBoris

Prophet of Truth - HDTVtest
Verified
Oct 29, 2017
16,692
Albert, as much as I respect that you're willing to come here and be enthusiastic about the generation we see unfolding, as someone who clearly has been involved firsthand in a console rollout - I would expect less naïveté on your part (unless you're being disingenuous, which I hope isn't the case.) Yes, of course Mark Cerny knows the intimate details of the next Playstation's architecture. He also knows how the game of incremental reveal is played, and has well-defined limits that have been discussed to death internally about what Sony is and is not willing to disclose at this point.

Not discussing the details of the raytracing solution they've chosen tells us nothing other than they don't believe it's in their interest to reveal those details just yet. Sony has a progressive rollout planned, which is doubtless informed by known events like a keynote presence at E3 by Microsoft. Selective omission of obvious details could be to bait out more information from a competitor. It could be to leave an opportunity for a big reveal at another time. It could be to avoid communicating broader strategy details that are related. It could have been intended to come across in the article but the journalist didn't happen to reflect every detail of the conversation. There are dozens of reasons more likely than trying to hide some weakness. Why would they bring up ray tracing at all if it wasn't a point of strength in their minds? Controlling the conversation is an age old game and essentially Marketing 101.

Frankly, I expect everyone to be disappointed when neither console is capable of using raytracing as a full-scene rendering strategy to replace conventional rasterization. So the trick is going to be showcasing it in a good light (pun not intended originally, but what the heck...)

That was pretty rude to someone who clearly knows more about the whole subject than you.
 

Dave.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,155
Trust, but verify. Your post is a perfect example of why traceability is important. It's so easy to get facts incorrect. Sony/Cerny never mentioned Nvidia RTX as a reference point. That wasn't even part of the original article. The article author added it after first publishing as a reference point to the current implementation of Ray tracing.

The article from The Verge: "Nvidia unveils Turing architecture and GPUs with dedicated ray-tracing hardware" was linked in the first version available on archive.org, April 16th. The 2nd link to the Geforce RTX 20 series was added within 5 hours.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,359
In all seriousness, I didn't want put any shade on Matt. However for me everything is in a state of rumor until it is confirmed by MS or Sony or leaked documentation can be proved as legit. I am just irritated by people using his statements as a fact by stating "he confirmed it".

In my case I'm willing to take his statement as fact, haven't seen him being wrong yet in the years I've seen him post.

Regarding ownership I made some research and Resetera is an LLC with an unknown number of shareholders, of whom I guess Cerium is one, as his title is General Manager and made the post presenting the other Admins and Mods, and the rest could be some of the other Admins (8) and even mods.

But is all speculation on my part
 
Last edited:

bear force one

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,305
Orlando
In all seriousness, I didn't want put any shade on Matt. However for me everything is in a state of rumor until it is confirmed by MS or Sony or leaked documentation can be proved as legit. I am just irritated by people using his statements as a fact by stating "he confirmed it".
No different than other "accepted" narratives we've had for pages upon pages. It's just that I find it humerous that a verified source with a track record is dragged here by some when pastebins have been given more immediate credit in the threads past.
 

Guymelef

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,644
Spain
Matt was the one who earned hate because he said Scorpio wasn't going to use Zen despite the wet dreams from some sector those days.
Ironically "dev kits are no final" was a thing often used to try to contradict him.
 

Jaypah

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,866
Matt was the one who earned hate because he said Scorpio wasn't going to use Zen despite the wet dreams from some sector those days.
Ironically "dev kits are no final" was a thing often used to try to contradict him.

I remember that. He became a hero to some and a villain to others, all because of information. Lol, gaming enthusiast can be so petty. Trife, really.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
That's possible, totally agree. Has the author weighed in on this then? Because if he did say it, and it just wasn't reported, then it would be easy to figure out.

if that's who "Matt" is and I missed it then totally take back what I said. I had not seen or read anything revised where Cerny clarified. But I miss things like anyone else.
I haven't read anything about the author weighing in, I just have not been able to find any transcripts, so I am speculating.

Matt is an "Era Insider" who was around in old Gaf days. He is generally reliable.

Thanks for the insights.
 

HStallion

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
62,262
Ken Kutaragi has digitized his personality and a copy will be installed on every PS5 as an AI to truly unlock its full potential.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,781
I'm gonna bow out until things cool down. Earlier in the thread, it felt like there was a good discussion but it's starting to feel a lot more heated right now, with lines being drawn and things taken out of context which is not something I want to get in the middle of again.

You and I are actually making the same points. There are plenty of reasons Cerny may not have been clear, and at no point did I accuse him of anything untoward. I'm not being naive or disingenuous. You're totally right - maybe he assumed it would be taken the way he meant it, maybe he was intending to set expectations, maybe he wanted to encourage the speculation. I dunno, but I totally agree with you. I'm not questioning his integrity.

I believe the PS5 will have HW RT.

lol, yeah there are times when it's more fun to be an observer to this thread than a participant. When things get heated and people start entrenching themselves on things based on rumor, unclear or incomplete statements, pastebin leaks and any other form of scuttlebutt then that's probably a good time for a person like you who stands out in a crowd like this due to your history in the industry to take a step back and wait for things to calm down. This thread and its predecessors have done a decent job of helping to chase off prominent posters like Jason Schreier and Benji.

Oh well, nature of the beast I suppose.
 

Hey Please

Avenger
Oct 31, 2017
22,824
Not America
I'm gonna bow out until things cool down. Earlier in the thread, it felt like there was a good discussion but it's starting to feel a lot more heated right now, with lines being drawn and things taken out of context which is not something I want to get in the middle of again.

You and I are actually making the same points. There are plenty of reasons Cerny may not have been clear, and at no point did I accuse him of anything untoward. I'm not being naive or disingenuous. You're totally right - maybe he assumed it would be taken the way he meant it, maybe he was intending to set expectations, maybe he wanted to encourage the speculation. I dunno, but I totally agree with you. I'm not questioning his integrity.

I believe the PS5 will have HW RT.

Thank you for the clarification.
 

More Butter

Banned
Jun 12, 2018
1,890
Matt is being reported to the mods for leaking unsubstantiated claims about the ps5 having hardware rt.

He has been a secret agent biting his time for almost a decade to strike at the right moment. He has been playing us like a damn fiddle.

I thought both companies already talked about RT though?... I just assumed both would have it in some capacity.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,781
Any new news or are we fighting about the same old shit?

Nothing too noteworthy, really.

I was sorta hoping we'd be getting some devkit leaks to sink our teeth into by now. Obviously Sony anticipated leaks which is at least partially why they did the Wired article, but so far nothing really that can be proven to be reliable.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,359
Trying to find out a real identity is a no go for me. I don't want to get into that. We all benefit from anonymity and that is a good thing.

Oh no real identities, was just speculating if the admins were the owners of the site, because that is what I remember from back when the site was formed.

There was a post explaining there was joined ownership this time, instead of unique ownership like in the old site.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,359
There's been literally nothing new of value since this post:

I'd argue there's been strong rumblings regarding MS launching with 1 SKU instead of 2.

That to me is much more interesting than the HW RT discussion regarding its acceleration.

So it's Scarlett the old Anaconda, as most suggest?

Is it Lockhart? A mix of both?

Will it be priced the same? Or less/more, depending the case?
 

Deleted member 12635

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
6,198
Germany
Oh no real identities, was just speculating if the admins were the owners of the site, because that is what I remember from back when the site was formed.

There was a post explaining there was joined ownership this time, instead of unique ownership like in the old site.
Then I misunderstood.
Anyway, we both should go to bed now. Already 2am (at least for me). And for you it should be around the same ;)
 

More Butter

Banned
Jun 12, 2018
1,890
Nothing too noteworthy, really.

I was sorta hoping we'd be getting some devkit leaks to sink our teeth into by now. Obviously Sony anticipated leaks which is at least partially why they did the Wired article, but so far nothing really that can be proven to be reliable.
The little snippets that these companies have confirmed lead me to believe that they will be very similar machines. Obviously there is a lot we don't know but things like CPU, GPU we know something about and are based on the same tech/architecture. It's fun to compare these machines but if they turn out basically the same then we will have to settle for arguing about how niche Sony games are or how Xbox has no games... As I get older these arguments seem more and more pointless. That's half the fun of gaming though I guess. Picking your favorite plastic thing typing nasty things to people who have a different plastic preferences. At this point I just hope this hardware is amazing on both sides and that gaming will improve. I'm really looking forward to next gen!
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,481
Seattle
That was pretty rude to someone who clearly knows more about the whole subject than you.

Does he, now?

Albert is definitely genuinely enthusiastic and I give him endless credit for being here under his real name and taking heat for his actions. Of course I know about his direct experience with the business. He has been graceful about acknowledging when he has been wrong, even when making rather blatantly inaccurate statements in defense of the product he has represented in the past, and so I expect he's going to continue to be a good conversationalist on the subject. That doesn't mean he shouldn't be called out from time to time, as when wading into this particular conversation in ways that can sow doubt (and if you don't think that's possible while still proclaiming that he, personally, doesn't doubt it then you haven't paid enough attention to how this game is played both in commerce and politics.) He doesn't work for Microsoft, but he continues to have friends there and spending a lot of time in that bubble does tend to have a perspective skewing effect. It's also likely he retains some non-trivial financial interest in the company's success (as do I, in the interest of full disclosure.)

Of course I respect his insights into the things that make a console launch a unique experience. That said, he has pretty clearly stated he knows nothing about the PS5, and the subject at hand is more a matter of the cat-and-mouse game of rolling out information about a mass-market product with intense interest and competition. I assure you, I have plenty of direct experience in that field. Feel free to have a mod look into that, if you'd like.

The flames of the console war are more than hot enough. I see no reason to watch people stoke them. When they're amenable to conversation that's my tool of preference.
 

III-V

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,827
So now people want to see additional terminology for ray tracing.

Cold: ray tracing
Old: hardware ray tracing
Hot: hardware-accelerated ray tracing
 
Status
Not open for further replies.