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Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,417
California
Dennis said the most obvious one, it's in the photo with the bridge. Same for the hair quality.

If you cannot see that you need new eyes, if you don't value those improvements that's perfectly fine.

I could already see the differences on these zoomed in stills. Noticing those is not what I meant.

It's that I can't even choose which I can use. I have a AMD graphics card from 2016 and I'm not interested in buying an Nvidia graphics card. So DLSS may be a game changer, but I'll never know because it's exclusive to their newer cards. So even if AMD's version is inferior in comparisons; as long as it's good enough and give me extra frames then I'm happy.
 

brainchild

Independent Developer
Verified
Nov 25, 2017
9,484
Like I said before, AMD didn't help there by naming the various modes almost exactly the same names as Nvidia used for DLSS, but you're spot on as always. They have been very upfront about what FSR is and what it does, but that isn't going to stop people getting upset and accusing you of having some ulterior motive if you suggest that FSR has any kind of value.

I agree. I definitely see the value in FSR, I just think it's a mistake for people to assume that it will eventually evolve into what DLSS 2.0 when there is no evidence to suggest it's heading in that direction when its goal to improve image quality is completely different. It's an edge upsampler. DLSS has always aimed to upsample the entire image. When FSR shows evidence of attempting to upsample the entire image, then it will be comparable to DLSS, even if the results aren't the same. As it stands it's an apples to oranges comparison.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,888
I could already see the differences on these zoomed in stills. Noticing those is not what I meant.

It's that I can't even choose which I can use. I have a AMD graphics card from 2016 and I'm not interested in buying an Nvidia graphics card. So DLSS may be a game changer, but I'll never know because it's exclusive to their newer cards. So even if AMD's version is inferior in comparisons; as long as it's good enough and give me extra frames then I'm happy.

Very valid and something I don't often being seen taken in to account when discussing the two techs.

This also can't be the directML tech some of us have hinted at.
 

Deleted member 10675

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
990
Madrid
Wait - it's really just Lanczos?

You know, I've never actually seen anyone compare NVIDIA's upscaling options - because you'd need to use a capture card rather than being able to take a screenshot.
The "NVIDIA Quality upscaling" option in Profile Inspector (which has been there for years) is apparently also Lanczos, and NVIDIA say that Turing GPUs were updated to use a 5-tap/32-phase scaler (with some G-Sync monitors having a 6-tap/64-phase scaler).

Perhaps this is something Dictator could look into?

NVIDIA Support

It is Lanczos applied before post-processing, with some tweaking (lower precision and faster approximations for some operations and avoiding certain artifacts).

AMD's implementation of Lanczos-2 is different than the original—it skips the expensive sin(), rcp() and sqrt() instructions and implements them in a faster way. AMD also added additional logic to avoid the ringing effects that are often observed on images processed with Lanczos.


www.techpowerup.com

AMD FidelityFX FSR Source Code Released & Updates Posted, Uses Lanczos under the Hood

AMD today in a blog post announced several updates to the FidelityFX Super Resolution (FSR) technology, its performance enhancement rivaling NVIDIA DLSS, which lets gamers dial up performance with minimal loss to image quality. To begin with, the company released the source code of the...
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
Seattle
Like I said before, AMD didn't help there by naming the various modes almost exactly the same names as Nvidia used for DLSS, but you're spot on as always. They have been very upfront about what FSR is and what it does, but that isn't going to stop people getting upset and accusing you of having some ulterior motive if you suggest that FSR has any kind of value.

It definitely didn't help that every article reporting on FSR's introduction positioned it as "AMD's answer to DLSS." Expectations were misaligned from day one, which is something AMD should have been able to see coming a mile away. FSR is easy to implement, offers solid performance considering it's utilizing the same hardware resources as rendering, and is widely compatible. It's useful for consumers with older tech and developers who don't have the budget to rework their rendering pipeline, but they really should have introduced a temporal solution or at least committed to having one down the road to carry the burden of competing directly with DLSS.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,109
It is Lanczos applied before post-processing, with some tweaking (lower precision and faster approximations for some operations and avoiding certain artifacts).
www.techpowerup.com

AMD FidelityFX FSR Source Code Released & Updates Posted, Uses Lanczos under the Hood

AMD today in a blog post announced several updates to the FidelityFX Super Resolution (FSR) technology, its performance enhancement rivaling NVIDIA DLSS, which lets gamers dial up performance with minimal loss to image quality. To begin with, the company released the source code of the...
Wow. I mean, obviously it has the advantage of being integrated into games so that it can be applied at a more optimal stage in the image processing pipeline, but that sounds like it could be using worse scaling than what has been built into NVIDIA GPUs for years - and largely ignored.
 

Dictator

Digital Foundry
Verified
Oct 26, 2017
4,945
Berlin, 'SCHLAND
Wait - it's really just Lanczos?

You know, I've never actually seen anyone compare NVIDIA's upscaling options - because you'd need to use a capture card rather than being able to take a screenshot.
The "NVIDIA Quality upscaling" option in Profile Inspector (which has been there for years) is apparently also Lanczos, and NVIDIA say that Turing GPUs were updated to use a 5-tap/32-phase scaler (with some G-Sync monitors having a 6-tap/64-phase scaler).

Perhaps this is something Dictator could look into?

NVIDIA Support

We talked about this on our internal channels about it being Lanczos - it is pretty curious how FSR presentation is on the Advances in Real-Time Rendering at Siggraph for being something so... Well historically founded already. Unless there is something I am not seeing about it where the large and informative Innovation is.
I could at some point check out the capture card on NV driver for you to Show the difference!
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,888
Honestly, that's the sense I get. They seem to absolutely hate Nvidia, and are always downplaying things like ray tracing and DLSS.

Could be due to taste and what they want out of their gpu products.

I love DLSS when it shows up, but it's problem is always gonna be implementation which isn't so easy to solve on a game by game basis.

out of a lot of streamers I get benchmarks from I don't see a lot of love for RT or rt tech when it shows up, again more due to taste then anything else. They don't hate DLSS they just don't see it's value in all moments, if someone already has performance or a ton of it you're not gonna get high marks from benchmarkers who don't really value 120+ situation to the same degree I would.

HBU is one of the only reasons I went ham on getting a 3080.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,017
We talked about this on our internal channels about it being Lanczos - it is pretty curious how FSR presentation is on the Advances in Real-Time Rendering at Siggraph for being something so... Well historically founded already. Unless there is something I am not seeing about it where the large and informative Innovation is.
I could at some point check out the capture card on NV driver for you to Show the difference!
Well there's the fact that at least 20 games will be getting it by the end of the year now when AMD has done the work and provided the code and SDK.
Game developers could've done the same thing since ~1975 but for whatever reason they didn't.
So there's this value for sure. FSR is certainly better than bilinear resolution scaling which is used by most games these days in their "rendering resolution percentage" sliders (which tbf I would generally prefer to see as FSR implementation in place of DLSS-like presets).
Whether this can be seen as an advancement in RT rendering is anyone's guess.
 

LCGeek

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,888
Wow. I mean, obviously it has the advantage of being integrated into games so that it can be applied at a more optimal stage in the image processing pipeline, but that sounds like it could be using worse scaling than what has been built into NVIDIA GPUs for years - and largely ignored.

Why is it ignored when seems like it could be helpful?
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,109
We talked about this on our internal channels about it being Lanczos - it is pretty curious how FSR presentation is on the Advances in Real-Time Rendering at Siggraph for being something so... Well historically founded already. Unless there is something I am not seeing about it where the large and informative Innovation is.
I could at some point check out the capture card on NV driver for you to Show the difference!
I think it could make for an interesting comparison to see how FSR compares to NVIDIA's GPU scaling.
I don't own any games that use FSR yet - though RE: Village is supposed to be receiving an update to support it.

It should be noted that you apparently have to activate GPU scaling in the "Manage 3D Settings" section of the Control Panel to use the enhanced scaler, rather than the "adjust desktop size and position" section. You'll see that enabling it locks out those settings.
I'd like to have done a comparison myself, but I don't have anything that could produce a high quality capture of, say, 1440p scaled to 4K in full-screen exclusive mode.

Obviously it's not ideal to be scaling the final output from the game, rather than scaling in-engine at an intermediate step, but I'm surprised to find that FSR is "just" an optimized Lanczos scaler.
I'm not sure whether all NVIDIA GPU scaling options are Lanczos-based, or something else. If they are, a higher tap filter is not necessarily better - that can introduce more ringing artifacts.
For example, this is Lanczos3 vs. Lanczos4 in madVR:
lanczos3-vpj0t.png
lanczos4-xgktw.png
 

laxu

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,783
There are hints in the FSR source code comments that future FSR versions will make use of temporal accumulation similarly to TAAU and DLSS.
This doesn't require new hardware either as can be seen in UE4's TAAU and UE5's TSR.
New h/w would be needed if they'll want to apply a noticeable ML component to it similarly to DLSS but that's not really a requirement.

That would be cool. There's a lot of fanboyism around tech coming from Nvidia or AMD but ultimately all of this is something that benefits us end-users. Especially consoles could really use anything that helps deliver better framerates without a significant hit to image quality.
 

dgrdsv

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,017
That would be cool. There's a lot of fanboyism around tech coming from Nvidia or AMD but ultimately all of this is something that benefits us end-users. Especially consoles could really use anything that helps deliver better framerates without a significant hit to image quality.
I still maintain that consoles are fine as they are with their approach to reconstruction and FSR or even a new TAAU solution won't have any impact on them since they are using CBR and TAAU for many years now. It may benefit smaller indie titles to a degree but these aren't usually heavy on the graphics side anyway and tend to run on 3rd party engines which have their own reconstruction solutions.

FSR's biggest impact is and will be on PC.
 

ss_lemonade

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,699
With my 1080 Ti, I've resorted to just using Nvidia's Freestyle sharpening filter when I need to run a game a lower resolutions (good example was playing through Control at 720p with raytracing enabled). Looked fairly good to me too. Is FSR supposed to look much better if I used it instead?
 

nmkd

Member
May 23, 2020
365
With my 1080 Ti, I've resorted to just using Nvidia's Freestyle sharpening filter when I need to run a game a lower resolutions (good example was playing through Control at 720p with raytracing enabled). Looked fairly good to me too. Is FSR supposed to look much better if I used it instead?

Damn, raytracing at 720p instead of no RT at native resolution, that's an odd choice.

FSR wouldn't look much better since it does almost the same thing. Maybe a tiny bit cleaner.
 

prodyg

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,210
FSR looks pretty good compared to native! That's the only comparison I care about really. DLSS is not an option for me.
 

prodyg

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,210
With my 1080 Ti, I've resorted to just using Nvidia's Freestyle sharpening filter when I need to run a game a lower resolutions (good example was playing through Control at 720p with raytracing enabled). Looked fairly good to me too. Is FSR supposed to look much better if I used it instead?
wait.... you can do RT on a 1080ti??
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
I'm going to wait as long as possible to upgrade from 10 GTX, not that I have much of a choice if I wanted to, but I'm good at waiting until I absolutely have too for the best jump feeling. FSR in most games would help a lot with that waiting.

Current gen consoles just coming out with cross gen still being a focus for third parties, and direct storage still looming, I have a while to wait to see where the dust settles. Ray tracing being such a hit on performance giving a need for these types of features to upscale with minimal hit to image quality is a blessing for people still on older GPUs. Though there was no way I was going to get a 2000 RTX (first ray tracing attempt), and though 3000 does ray tracing well I would still rather wait for even better hardware.
 

Spoit

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,061
so DLSS is better but AMD FSR can be a great plus in consoles to get 4k? Even though the quality won't be the same but it could. perhaps. run 4k 60FPS? And that AMD needs to develop a new technology to involve AI to match DLSS quality isn't it?
Also this has something to do with the temp injection Insomniac has used in Spider Man Miles Morales and Ratchet?
The thing is, consoles have been working on ways to upscale their image to 4k for years now, many of which work much better than FSR. Checkerboarding, like you said, which is used in those isomaniac games. And UE5's Temporal upscaling is really impressive too.
 

plagiarize

It's not a loop. It's a spiral.
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
27,652
Cape Cod, MA
The thing is, consoles have been working on ways to upscale their image to 4k for years now, many of which work much better than FSR. Checkerboarding, like you said, which is used in those isomaniac games. And UE5's Temporal upscaling is really impressive too.
I'm pretty sure Insomniac *don't* user checkerboarding for their reconstruction technique (although they were using checkerboarding in their RT optimizations). I have zero complaints with how their games that use it look though.
 

impingu1984

Member
Oct 31, 2017
3,441
UK
DLSS stays winning...

But FSR isn't the same thing at all, no idea why it's compared as a equal technology when it isn't
 

Lady Gaia

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
Seattle
Checkerboarding, like you said, which is used in those isomaniac games. And UE5's Temporal upscaling is really impressive too.

I don't believe Insomniac ever used checkerboarding. They went with their own temporal solution that seems to work for them. There's a whole family of temporal accumulation / injection techniques that can be tuned over time, or tailored somewhat to fit a particular title. Insomniac's solution clearly works well for them and seems to produce solid results, but as far as I'm aware it isn't something they've disclosed any specifics regarding.

That's part of why I get prickly about how DLSS is perceived, because it's effective but it belongs to this larger family of temporal techniques that all benefit from the same theoretical underpinning with largely the same inputs. Is there machine learning involved in the tuning? Sure, but that took place on some server farm to create the decision framework used to combine pixel values between frames. it's not actually learning anything more as you play. By the time you actually run a game that uses DLSS it's just algorithmic, not entirely dissimilar to a variety of other approaches, with the advantage of using fairly capable hardware that would otherwise be idle in parallel with other GPU functions.
 

TetraGenesis

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,142
I don't think one of these comparisons should exist without also including the scaling solutions the consoles use or alternatives already in the PC version. FSR seems to underperform compared to checkerboard rendering, equivalent base resolutions with TAA (in terms of detail lost), and, as some have already said, Insomniac's temporal upscaling (not like you could compare that on other platforms). Not to mention UE5's forthcoming TSR which looks leagues better. DLSS comparisons are pointless because there's no contest and it's Nvidia proprietary. But there are other solutions out there that people tend to ignore in these comparisons and based on what I've seen I just don't think FSR stacks up to them.
 

P40L0

Member
Jun 12, 2018
7,659
Italy
The following is a good in-depth analysis from both a performance and IQ point of view which also mirrors my final thoughts about it:



FSR Ultra Quality @ 4K is a valid alternative to DLSS Quality, and I really can't wait for it to land on consoles where it's currently desperately needed for RT games.