Feb 9, 2018
2,694
Capitalism has always sucked. Business owners have long got up to scummy and sometimes downright monstrously evil bullshit for the sake of making a buck (United Fruit Company ring a bell?). But there was a brief period of time from the 1940s to the 1970s, often known as the Great Compression, where income inequality was massively down, when many businesses actually gave consideration to their stakeholders, where the wealthy were taxed heavily, where the minimum wage was much higher (in inflation-adjusted terms, it peaked in 1968 at the equivalent of $14.61 in current dollars), where average wages in general across all income groups grew in tandem with inflation and productivity, and where government gradually cracked down on still-existing abuses by instituting various regulations and regulatory bodies (e.g., OSHA, the EPA). There was still a lot of serious problems, and minorities were still being shit on by the government, but the economy still worked for most Americans.

Then the Reagan Era came, and corporations started to change course, focusing solely on "shareholder satisfaction." The GOP went all-in on supply-side economics, slashing taxes and regulations. Income inequality skyrocketed, with executive pay exploding. Real wages stopped growing despite continuing increases in productivity. We heard a "giant sucking sound" as good-paying jobs were offshored. Business are seeking ever more inventive ways of making sure they can run their operations with as few human workers as possible. Goods and services increase in price and decrease in quality, with planned obsolescence being the name of the game for everything from tech to fashion. Housing is treated as a financial instrument first and foremost, and even our transportation leaves us dependent on and at the mercy of auto makers and oil companies, turning our cities into massive, dangerous sprawls that are unaffordable and unsustainable (both ecologically and economically). American capital has spend the last 40+ years steadily moving us closer to the Gilded Age 2.0, and they've continued to succeed in stacking the deck in their favor. The government allows ever more consolidation, they wait many years between increasing the minimum wage (the last increases were in 2007-09, and the last time before that was in 1996-97), and they do the bare minimum to fight climate change, all while the big megacorps continue to amass ever-greater sums of money at the expensive of everyone else.

But God forbid we actually do something to stop this bullshit, because even the bare minimum efforts to reign in the excesses of capital get castigated as "socialism," even though most Americans wouldn't know actual socialism even if it jumped up and bit them in the ass. If it were up to me, all these big megacorps would be broken up and the fragments converted into worker-owned co-ops, where the employees regardless of station vote on who their bosses are. I guess you could call me a "market socialist." I have no idea how such a system would actually work (I'm not an economist), but I don't trust the state to administer the economy any more than I do private capitalists. Governments absolutely should administer the big-picture public goods like infrastructure, education, emergency services, defense, and health insurance, but I doubt anyone aside from the most diehard Leninist would like to see some central planning committee staffed by likely unelected bureaucrats decide things like what movies get made, what flavors of ice cream get made, and what components and features TVs have. The choice of "unregulated capitalism" and "Soviet-style command economy" is a false dichotomy, and economic power needs to be as diffuse as possible regardless of what system we have.

At minimum, if we're going to have privately-owned for-profit businesses being things that exist, we need some heavy duty trust busting and the complete and total removal of private money from the political process. Sadly, we'll be lucky to even get back to an economy that at least somewhat prioritizes society as a whole over wealthy business owners, much less something approaching workplace democracy. But unless the capitalist class is at minimum taken down several dozen notches and kept on a really short and very tight leash, they'll continue to fuck over every and the whole planet for the sake of "maximizing shareholder value," all the way up to when the whole thing implodes on itself like the house of cards it is. Such is the fate of any sort of unsustainable system.
 
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entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
61,177
Something is up because Warren Buffett is just holding tons of cash.
 

louiedog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,485
I honestly think the class of execs and billionaires are so psychotic and divorced from reality that even attributing what they're doing to "shareholder value" or whatever is giving them too much credit. I think they've gamified growth. I think they just like seeing number go up and there's no amount of human suffering they're not willing to inflict to see that through.

And they've got people convinced they too can achieve the same.

My college roommate literally jumped up and down on the couch clapping and giggling while watching the news when the US was dropping bombs on a foreign country. I'm going to say it again. He LITERALLY did that. The reason? In his words, "I'd be liberal but I'm planning on making a lot of money some day." He decided whatever people the Republicans in control were okay killing was fine because he might want to keep some money in his pocket some day in the future.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
21,222
My college roommate literally jumped up and down on the couch clapping and giggling while watching the news when the US was dropping bombs on a foreign country. I'm going to say it again. He LITERALLY did that. The reason? In his words, "I'd be liberal but I'm planning on making a lot of money some day." He decided whatever people the Republicans in control were okay killing was fine because he might want to keep some money in his pocket some day in the future.
You should've dragged him into the street and whooped his ass.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,287
Capitalism has always sucked. Business owners have long got up to scummy bullshit for the sake of making a buck. But there was a brief period of time from the 1940s to the 1970s, often known as the Great Compression, where income inequality was massively down, when many businesses actually gave consideration to their stakeholders, where the wealthy were taxed heavily, where the minimum wage was much higher (in inflation-adjusted terms, it peaked in 1968 at the equivalent of $14.61 in current dollars), where average wages in general across all income groups grew in tandem with inflation and productivity, and where government gradually cracked down on still-existing abuses by instituting various regulations and regulatory bodies (e.g., OSHA, the EPA). There was still a lot of serious problems, and minorities were still being shit on by the government, but the economy still worked for most Americans.

Then the Reagan Era came, and corporations started to change course, focusing solely on "shareholder satisfaction." The GOP went all-in on supply-side economics, slashing taxes and regulations. Income inequality skyrocketed, with executive pay exploding. Real wages stopped growing despite continuing increases in productivity. We heard a "giant sucking sound" as good-paying jobs were offshored. Business are seeking ever more inventive ways of making sure they can run their operations with as few human workers as possible. American capital has spend the last 40+ years steadily moving us closer to the Gilded Age 2.0, and they've continued to succeed. The government allows ever more consolidation, they wait many years between increasing the minimum wage (the last increases were in 2007-09, and the last time before that was in 1996-97), and they do the bare minimum to fight climate change, all while the big megacorps continue to amass ever-greater sums of money at the expensive of everyone else.

But God forbid we actually do something to stop this bullshit, because even the bare minimum efforts to reign in the excesses of capital get castigated as "socialism." Honestly, we need some real-deal socialism in this country. If it were up to me, all these big megacorps would be broken up and the fragments converted into worker-owned co-ops, where all voting shares are distributed equally among all the employees regardless of station and vote on who their bosses are. Sadly, that'll probably never happen. But unless the capitalist class is at minimum taken down several notches and kept on a short leash, they'll continue to fuck over every and the whole planet for the sake of "maximizing shareholder value."

It's funny that you and I posted basically the same thing a few minutes apart.

It's not "capitalism" that's the problem, it's 70s/80s era Reaganomics that's the problem.

It would be lovely to undo all of that, but it seems impossible because 30% of this country is absolutely committed to engaging in a culture war with the remaining 70% and will happily burn everything down so long as it means they win it.
 

Sei

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,797
LA
I thought the whole point of exploiting less developed countries and optimizing imports, was so we could have cheaper things, but we don't even have that anymore. Everything is more expensive, and the workers that were supposed to be uplifted are not. Hmm.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,143
I thought the whole point of exploiting less developed countries and optimizing imports, was so we could have cheaper things, but we don't even have that anymore. Everything is more expensive, and the workers that were supposed to be uplifted are not. Hmm.

things can't get cheaper, line has to go up every single year no matter what!
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,287
And they've got people convinced they too can achieve the same.

My college roommate literally jumped up and down on the couch clapping and giggling while watching the news when the US was dropping bombs on a foreign country. I'm going to say it again. He LITERALLY did that. The reason? In his words, "I'd be liberal but I'm planning on making a lot of money some day." He decided whatever people the Republicans in control were okay killing was fine because he might want to keep some money in his pocket some day in the future.

This reminds me of something I heard on NPR during my morning commute. I'm paraphrasing, but the speaker didn't believe that "evil" really existed- people just tended to exist along a spectrum of self interest.

At one end you have progressive, liberal individuals that view the welfare of their community, other people, and society at large as being in their self interest. At the OTHER end are people like your roommate who embrace a very conservative view, whose sense of "self" (and thus self interest) is so narrow that it likely doesn't extend much farther than themselves and immediate family- so the welfare of anyone beyond that is irrelevant so long as they themselves benefit.
 

Divvy

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,099
And they've got people convinced they too can achieve the same.

My college roommate literally jumped up and down on the couch clapping and giggling while watching the news when the US was dropping bombs on a foreign country. I'm going to say it again. He LITERALLY did that. The reason? In his words, "I'd be liberal but I'm planning on making a lot of money some day." He decided whatever people the Republicans in control were okay killing was fine because he might want to keep some money in his pocket some day in the future.
I've certainly met my fair share of these people. As someone who believes that some form of socialism is the right direction, it's the kind of thing that sits in the back of my mind. Like what the fuck do we do with these people.
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,277
I'm re-reading this comment and I want to revisit it because it reminds me of a conversation I had a couple months ago on this site that seems relevant:

www.resetera.com

Why do Video Games Cost so much to make with each generation and How can devs reduce cost?

This isn't a "capitalism" problem, it's reflective of one specific school of thought that focuses on shareholders over all other stakeholders (customers, employees, the business itself) that got floated by Milton Friedman in the 1970s...

This isn't a "capitalism" problem, it's reflective of one specific school of thought that focuses on shareholders over all other stakeholders (customers, employees, the business itself) that got floated by Milton Friedman in the 1970s.


Capitalists" prior to that *explicitly did not endorse this view*.

Freidman's theories unfortunately were the darling of the "greed-is-good" Reagan-Era conservatives that took power in 1980, and they did everything they could to rewrite tax and economic policy to embrace it- leading widespread economic inequality as well as a series of inevitable financial scandals and disasters that culminated in the 2008 financial crisis.

Modern economic theory- even the "capitalist" ones- largely acknowledge that Friedman's theories promoting shareholder value over everything else were not only widely wrong, but extremely corrosive to the public good and "bottom up" economic theories carry more weight. So your beef isn't with "capitalism" it's with Reagan-Era conservative economics.

my beef is kinda with capitalism. i had something fantastical and radical written up but in short - i'd be happier to help support others' basic needs if i knew my own basic needs were met. i'm sort of pulling from what it was like to camp in the boy scouts. all our basic needs were met by our folks, but we had to cook for each other, help put our own tents together, and handle teardown/packing ourselves. between breakfast, lunch, and dinner there would be some activities we had to do, but otherwise had free time to hang out and enjoy each other's company. i'm trying to imagine that on a much larger scale.

Well...universities in this country (at least the public ones) largely WERE free until the mid to late 1960s. You'll find that date popping up A LOT in every question about "why doesn't the US just do things that make sense."

It's the racism.

www.peoplesworld.org

Free college was once the norm all over America

WASHINGTON– When people involved in the fight to cancel student debt demand free college education they are not calling for a new, radical idea. Countless numbers of lawmakers, for example, got their educations at free colleges that they now say are out of reach to the nation’s students.

Again- Reagan era conservative principles absolutely destroyed a system that was working pretty well.

unsurprisingly, a lot of this went over my head until i started learning about it in 2009. even growing up in a diverse/largely-nonwhite part of southern california and considering myself pretty progressive, it was shocking to read about the history of socal and the racism that drove the movie industry, the creation of the suburbs, and the capitalist/racist history of the freeway system.
 

Stuggernaut

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,011
Seattle, WA, USA
I know a few people that are execs and it's just gross how much money they make... and I work in the "Building Materials" industry which you would not always think of as big money.

By gross I mean, 300k+ salary, plus huge annual bonus that is more than I make in a year, and they are not really good at their job, they have just escalated to it over 15+ years. Good for them I guess but I also know what other workers make at their company and it is mostly 50k-60k careers with like 5% of the annual bonus.

It's the difference that is disturbing to me.

Hell one of my own family members (2nd or 3rd cousin, I forget where she fits in!) spends SO much money via credit cards that she writes off as "business expenses" that ads up to 80k+ sometimes that includes travel, food, car rentals, clothing, etc... so basically their pay is just extra money at that point.

Their lifestyles are not like "super rich" kinda stuff, but SOOOOO much less stress I would imagine lol.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,287
unsurprisingly, a lot of this went over my head until i started learning about it in 2009. even growing up in a diverse/largely-nonwhite part of southern california and considering myself pretty progressive, it was shocking to read about the history of socal and the racism that drove the movie industry, the creation of the suburbs, and the capitalist/racist history of the freeway system.

Give yourself some credit. MOST people never find out about this sort of thing at all and assume that the way things are is the way they have always been and always have to be. Not so- a lot of what is broken is broken BY DESIGN because of backlash to Civil Rights era reforms in the 60s that conservatives can't stand.

It's not an accident that we're seeing a concerted effort to ban teaching or learning about any of this in red states. It's not "embarrassment" they want to avoid, they want to avoid anybody undoing what they put in place.
 

Kiyamet

Member
Apr 21, 2024
463
How is it good for the economy for capital owners to hoard profits, leverage assets instead of paying taxes, and cashing out whenever they see fit. Why is their risk more important than the risk the working class makes investing their bodies into the places they work.

Just asking questions.
 

Booshka

Member
May 8, 2018
4,060
Colton, CA
How is it good for the economy for capital owners to hoard profits, leverage assets instead of paying taxes, and cashing out whenever they see fit. Why is their risk more important than the risk the working class makes investing their bodies into the places they work.

Just asking questions.
Because the negative externalities are not accounted for by capital in a way that truly represents the harm to workers and the world. A car accident and a gunshot wound increases the GDP even if it destroys a persons livelihood.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,287
How is it good for the economy for capital owners to hoard profits, leverage assets instead of paying taxes, and cashing out whenever they see fit. Why is their risk more important than the risk the working class makes investing their bodies into the places they work.

Just asking questions.

It isn't, and capitalist theory explicitly was designed NOT to do this until the mid 70s.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
21,222
How is it good for the economy for capital owners to hoard profits, leverage assets instead of paying taxes, and cashing out whenever they see fit. Why is their risk more important than the risk the working class makes investing their bodies into the places they work.

Just asking questions.
Your first mistake was in thinking capital owners care that deeply about the economy and the working class.
 

Chasex

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
1,707
User Banned (Permanently): Downplaying Genocide and Slavery; Prior Serious Bans for Trolling and Transphobia
It was out of control when it was founded upon wholesale Indigenous genocide, four centuries of African slavery, and aggressive land theft and economic disenfranchisement.

But yeah, now that farm-raised eggs are $6, there's advertisements on top of advertisements, and global warming in general keeps getting worse, the Westerners are finally panicking.

If by out of control you mean lifting billions of people from poverty, saving countless more with advances in science, technology, and medicine, and providing a quality of life to the average person that not even a king could dream of just a few hundred years ago, sure.

But the indigenous people and the slavery. Yeah, that was awful, although not even remotely unique to America or capitalism. History is nothing but conquest, every country is built from it. And we fought a war to do away with slavery. Plenty of other economic and political systems came and went, none dealing with these problems nearly as well.

We will see what happens in the next 100 years, but the previous 100 were unequivocally won by Western capitalists. It would make a hell of a lot more sense to put some tighter guardrails on the current system then tear it down to replace with… what exactly? Eastern authoritarian surveillance state? Finally setting up the socialist utopia, except this time do it right? I believe that.
 

AniHawk

No Fear, Only Math
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,277
Give yourself some credit. MOST people never find out about this sort of thing at all and assume that the way things are is the way they have always been and always have to be. Not so- a lot of what is broken is broken BY DESIGN because of backlash to Civil Rights era reforms in the 60s that conservatives can't stand.

It's not an accident that we're seeing a concerted effort to ban teaching or learning about any of this in red states. It's not "embarrassment" they want to avoid, they want to avoid anybody undoing what they put in place.

i literally learned (as did a lot of other white people) about tulsa 1921 through a fucking hbo show about superheroes. genuinely shocking to go from 'huh? did this actually happen!?' to finding out via a quick internet search that yes it absolutely did and was toned down for tv.

fucking hell. if kids were taught this in school, then they'd have a much easier time understanding why Black people were fighting for civil rights. as a privileged white person, i had sympathy that people did not enjoy the same liberties as everyone else. to me it was ridiculous there would be separate (but better and lesser - hey that sounds familiar) versions of everything. but it was something long-solved and we were an enlightened society with just a few remaining issues. my dumb ass truly thought we turned a corner when we elected obama to the presidency. my real education honestly started in 2009.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,294
Late stage Capitalism doesn't even follow the theories of Capitalism anymore.

It's now about making ALL THE MONEY AT ALL TIMES!

But that fits perfectly within the theory of capitalism...

If by out of control you mean lifting billions of people from poverty, saving countless more with advances in science, technology, and medicine, and providing a quality of life to the average person that not even a king could dream of just a few hundred years ago, sure.

But the indigenous people and the slavery. Yeah, that was awful, although not even remotely unique to America or capitalism. History is nothing but conquest, every country is built from it. And we fought a war to do away with slavery. Plenty of other economic and political systems came and went, none dealing with these problems nearly as well.

We will see what happens in the next 100 years, but the previous 100 were unequivocally won by Western capitalists. It would make a hell of a lot more sense to put some tighter guardrails on the current system then tear it down to replace with… what exactly? Eastern authoritarian surveillance state? Finally setting up the socialist utopia, except this time do it right? I believe that.

Ay yooo, we found the capitalist apologist. And damn, already into slavery apologizing. Bravo, good sir. Bravo.
 

RaySpencer

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,833
We're not done yet! All of the millionaires, aren't billionaires yet, and the billionaires aren't trillionaires!

It's definitely fucked. The massive amount of greed people have is insane.
 

Kiyamet

Member
Apr 21, 2024
463
If by out of control you mean lifting billions of people from poverty, saving countless more with advances in science, technology, and medicine, and providing a quality of life to the average person that not even a king could dream of just a few hundred years ago, sure.
Is China capitalist? It seems they are when capitalists want to make this argument but not capitalist in other times. Its hard to keep track.
 
Jun 12, 2021
187
It's really astounding how many problems our society has that could be solved or wouldn't exist in the first place if it weren't for greed.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,287
Women didn't even have access to credit equitably pre 70s. And imperialism was running roughshod all over the global south post WW2.

Capitalism has always been an absolute mess.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but banning women from the workplace or access to credit would seem to be the exact opposite of what a purely capitalist system would be designed to do. That doesn't make money for anyone and wildly distorts the labor market.

Likewise "imperialism" is not something that started with capitalist systems and isn't required by them.

There are a lot of criticisms to levy at the imperfect system we have, but using capitalism as short hand for "bad thing I don't like" doesn't really get us anywhere.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,143
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but banning women from the workplace or access to credit would seem to be the exact opposite of what a purely capitalist system would be designed to do. That doesn't make money for anyone and wildly distorts the labor market.

Likewise "imperialism" is not something that started with capitalist systems and isn't required by them.

There are a lot of criticisms to levy at the imperfect system we have, but using capitalism as short hand for "bad thing I don't like" doesn't really get us anywhere.

People in power are not smart and there are different hierarchies that people want to "protect", one of them was and still is the fact that men should rule/own women as property. Women couldn't work, they weren't even "smart" and had to stay home raising the family.

Capitalism is just another hierarchical system that is all about keeping the owners of the means of production over the workers at all cost while paying the workers the least amount of money possible. The liberation of women was what led to awful human being realizing that they could exploit half of the population with terrible wages.
 

Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,466
UK
Is China capitalist? It seems they are when capitalists want to make this argument but not capitalist in other times. Its hard to keep track.
This whole argument about China does my nut in. "China is a communist state! Be thankful we aren't like them".

son, why do you think half of the stuff you buy from Amazon is from China? Do you think it's all that communism causing them to churn out goods? Or do you think maybe it's because they're predominantly Capital-driven just like you and me and that you've been sold a big ol' sack 'o propaganda about those dirty "commies" your whole life?

China being a "commie" state doesn't mean anything anymore, and any arguments made about them in relation to communism doesn't mean shit all anymore. It's just a very easy way for me to filter out if someone is worth Speaking to about the topic in the first place
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,287
It's really astounding how many problems our society has that could be solved or wouldn't exist in the first place if it weren't for greed.

I mean, you're talking about a fundamental flaw of human nature. I'm not religious but "thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife" is literally the tenth commandment.

It would be great if "greed" just wasn't a thing, but you're not getting rid of it just like you're not getting rid of the topics of the other 9 commandments (murder, false witness, adultery, theft, disrespect to elders) no matter what economic system you use.
 

mentok15

Member
Dec 20, 2017
7,533
Australia
And imperialism was running roughshod all over the global south post WW2.
USSR and CCP were/are pretty imperialist yeah

Is China capitalist? It seems they are when capitalists want to make this argument but not capitalist in other times. Its hard to keep track.
They're capitalist now, but not liberal, and most of the getting people out of poverty was done after their economic reforms after Mao.
 

j7vikes

Definitely not shooting blanks
Member
Jan 5, 2020
6,027
It's why they push racism so much.

Poor people have more in common which each other than they have in common with rich people. So they try to keep up poor people divided so we won't notice how different the rich people are.

It's this 100%. Rich people know what you said and they don't want us coming after them. So it's immigrants, people of color, transgenders, etc etc etc. They are why you're struggling. It's not us it's them.

Anything to take our eye off the ball and have the poor mad at the poor. It's so obvious and yet here we are.
 

Efreeti

Member
Jul 5, 2019
470
It's really astounding how many problems our society has that could be solved or wouldn't exist in the first place if it weren't for greed.
It sucks because a whole lot of things could just be so much easier for so many people if we can eliminate that. Libraries can be free. Housing can be free. Food can be free. And that's all "cheap" if you don't let worker time/wealth get sucked away by billionaires. Every time you have to go through entire layers of bureaucracy to get something you have a right to, so many people give up, that could just be gone. Oh you're sick, stay home. Hospital, of course it's free.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
21,222
If by out of control you mean lifting billions of people from poverty, saving countless more with advances in science, technology, and medicine, and providing a quality of life to the average person that not even a king could dream of just a few hundred years ago, sure.

But the indigenous people and the slavery. Yeah, that was awful, although not even remotely unique to America or capitalism. History is nothing but conquest, every country is built from it. And we fought a war to do away with slavery. Plenty of other economic and political systems came and went, none dealing with these problems nearly as well.

We will see what happens in the next 100 years, but the previous 100 were unequivocally won by Western capitalists. It would make a hell of a lot more sense to put some tighter guardrails on the current system then tear it down to replace with… what exactly? Eastern authoritarian surveillance state? Finally setting up the socialist utopia, except this time do it right? I believe that.
I thought the last time we talked, I told you not to talk to me. Maybe I didn't; if not, my bad. I'll address this then.

Billions more people have lived and died in poverty than capitalism has actually lifted out. Even today, more people live a substandard existence than live anything resembling a dignified, struggle-free existence like rich Westerners. Subsequently, science, technology, and medicine are not the unique purviews of capitalism; these are just things humans do regardless. What capitalism is good at is is dividing and specializing tasks amongst different people for the sake of production, meaning it is easier to just pump out a bunch of crap compared to systems were you actually have to take into account some level of human dignity. But the shallow whims of Western living are coming at a grave cost of the impoverishment and ravaging of the Global South and the destruction of the very ecosystems we need to even exist in conditions sustainable for human life. The cobalt for your tech shit has to come from somewhere, and if we've gotta kill some Black kids in the Congo to get it, oh well. Some tighter guardrails are not going to fix this. At this rate, in 100 years millions are going to be dead from climate change and resulting resource wars while the progeny of your boy Elon Musk will be happily living on Mars far away from the carnage.

Also, I'm not about to let you downplay history with "we've always had slavery." No. The level of wholesale genocide of Indigenous groups, as well as the brutality, lifetime term, and moral justifications of the Transatlantic Slave Trade and are literally some of the most horrific crimes in recorded human history just by sheer scale. First of all, how many Indigenous people are even in your life? I can literally count on one hand the amount of Indigenous people that I've known on a first name basis. That's not an accident, and neither was the fact that whites took so many people off the African continent that the continental population did not grow for decades during the height of the trade. Indigenous genocide and the slave trade were directly facilitated by capitalism, and as a result it is largely the reason we are dealing with the various social mores and -isms. Roman slavery was not nearly as catastrophic, widespread, systemic, and brutal from what written records we have, and as a result we're not dealing with Roman supremacy fucking up the planet right now. It's white supremacy and European capitalism.

It's also amusing that you think authoritarian surveillance is the purview of Eastern European socialism. You're on the Internet. The government knows everything about you, and we are a hop, skip, and an election away from fascism infecting our government. If the worst comes to worst and they start rounding people up in the camps (as if we don't have camps on the border right now, to say nothing of our jail system), I assume you will be there to explain to the victims how this is the fault of the Soviets.

But ultimately, I can't predict the future, and I make no diagnoses about what system is next. But I can absolutely make a bet that this cannot last. No social, political, or economic system ever has in human history. We're 100,000 years old and capitalism is a comparative blink of an eye built on extremely obvious contradictions. This is not our end. Humans develop themselves whether you like it or not. Either humanity will figure out that we do not have to step on the necks of billions just to enrich thousands using the blind loyalty of millions who are deluded into thinking they will one day be the winners, or global warming will force our hand.
 
Oct 27, 2017
7,748
I'm not even sure we can call it capitalism anymore. We are increasingly living in a feudal state where everyone must pay to merely exist in society to an increasingly smaller number of richer and richer hands. There is no market, only monopolistic entities occupying each facet of your life engaging in rent seeking behavior.
Ding! Ding! Ding! This is what is actually happening: a transition to neofeudalism and a rentier economy.

The problem is that domestic middle class and even many working class jobs are increasingly becoming bullshit jobs that generate less real world inherent worth in terms of producing the necessities of existence (think food, clothing, housing, transportation, etc.) and are instead producing more and more financialized (a.k.a. fake / arbitrage-based) value that only continues to be worth something if the countries doing the outsourced means of production continue to play ball. Once we engage in geopolitical conflict with countries like China who make the majority of our stuff, you'll see just how much your programming job is worth in real terms when they start shifting production inward to serve their own domestic markets and think of places like western countries as an after thought. Real necessities will get real expensive really fast, and you'll realize all these glorified paper pusher jobs and producers of "soft wares" ain't gonna cut it anymore.
 

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
21,222
I'm not even sure we can call it capitalism anymore. We are increasingly living in a feudal state where everyone must pay to merely exist in society to an increasingly smaller number of richer and richer hands. There is no market, only monopolistic entities occupying each facet of your life engaging in rent seeking behavior.
Capitalism is just feudalism with a theoretical promise that you can move upwards in class.
 

Booshka

Member
May 8, 2018
4,060
Colton, CA
We've lost the class war so hard that we can't call the heightened contradictions real capitalism and we're valorizing a mythological sweet spot of capitalism.
 

Aadiboy

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,733
I wonder what exactly all the business people and corporations think the end result of jacking up prices and monetizing everything is. Like, they realize that eventually people won't be able to buy their products, right? Like, even the most heartless business person has to realize that they won't be able to extract as much value out of consumers if they can't even afford to purchase anything.
 

Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,450
I wonder what exactly all the business people and corporations think the end result of jacking up prices and monetizing everything is. Like, they realize that eventually people won't be able to buy their products, right? Like, even the most heartless business person has to realize that they won't be able to extract as much value out of consumers if they can't even afford to purchase anything.

They don't care because they'll be gone before that happens.
 

darkwing

Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,156
if you are not after infinite growth then what are you in the business for
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
33,299
Seeing as how this is a thread about capitalist development and I was responding to a post about Reaganomics you'd be correct in your assumptions.
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Thordinson

Member
Aug 1, 2018
18,450
If by out of control you mean lifting billions of people from poverty, saving countless more with advances in science, technology, and medicine, and providing a quality of life to the average person that not even a king could dream of just a few hundred years ago, sure.

But the indigenous people and the slavery. Yeah, that was awful, although not even remotely unique to America or capitalism. History is nothing but conquest, every country is built from it. And we fought a war to do away with slavery. Plenty of other economic and political systems came and went, none dealing with these problems nearly as well.


Here's the study: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0305750X22002169#!

  • The common notion that extreme poverty is the "natural" condition of humanity and only declined with the rise of capitalism rests on income data that do not adequately capture access to essential goods.
  • Data on real wages suggests that, historically, extreme poverty was uncommon and arose primarily during periods of severe social and economic dislocation, particularly under colonialism.
  • The rise of capitalism from the long 16th century onward is associated with a decline in wages to below subsistence, a deterioration in human stature, and an upturn in premature mortality.
  • In parts of South Asia, sub-Saharan Africa and Latin America, wages and/or height have still not recovered.

I'm not sure we can say that Capitalism did what you claimed.
Though, it is funny to talk about medicine and such when Cuba, despite a decades long embargo, has better health metrics than the US.
 
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AgeEighty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,776
It's all going to come to a head sooner or later, because there are too few people who see what's happening who possess the power and/or will to steer us toward a course correction. There's no sign of a pendulum swing yet, and no indicators suggesting that things will settle without a lot of pain of some or multiple forms. And most people are too disconnected and are being kept too angry at the wrong people.

Unfortunately we're all likely to be alive to see things get very, very bad.
 

Vexii

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,466
UK
It's all going to come to a head sooner or later, because there's nobody who sees what's happening with the power and/or will to course correct. There's no sign of a pendulum swing yet, and no indicators suggesting that things will settle without a lot of pain of some or multiple forms.

Unfortunately we're all likely to be alive to see things get very, very bad.
What's scarier is that it could all happen one day in the blink of an eye. Like a bank run, but on a much wider scale. It'll take one event to set things off and I don't even know what it could be, but I'm sure it'll take place over hours and not weeks or even days.

I kinda do hope to see it tbh, but I also appreciate that life will get a lot, LOT worse for a while. im tired of feeling like I'm the crazy one when all signs point towards the imaginary numbers being the thing that's truly crazy
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,294
I thought the last time we talked, I told you not to talk to me. Maybe I didn't; if not, my bad. I'll address this then.

Billions more people have lived and died in poverty than capitalism has actually lifted out. Even today, more people live a substandard existence than live anything resembling a dignified, struggle-free existence like rich Westerners. Subsequently, science, technology, and medicine are not the unique purviews of capitalism; these are just things humans do regardless. What capitalism is good at is is dividing and specializing tasks amongst different people for the sake of production, meaning it is easier to just pump out a bunch of crap compared to systems were you actually have to take into account some level of human dignity. But the shallow whims of Western living are coming at a grave cost of the impoverishment and ravaging of the Global South and the destruction of the very ecosystems we need to even exist in conditions sustainable for human life. The cobalt for your tech shit has to come from somewhere, and if we've gotta kill some Black kids in the Congo to get it, oh well. Some tighter guardrails are not going to fix this. At this rate, in 100 years millions are going to be dead from climate change and resulting resource wars while the progeny of your boy Elon Musk will be happily living on Mars far away from the carnage.

Also, I'm not about to let you downplay history with "we've always had slavery." No. The level of wholesale genocide of Indigenous groups, as well as the brutality, lifetime term, and moral justifications of the Transatlantic Slave Trade and are literally some of the most horrific crimes in recorded human history just by sheer scale. First of all, how many Indigenous people are even in your life? I can literally count on one hand the amount of Indigenous people that I've known on a first name basis. That's not an accident, and neither was the fact that whites took so many people off the African continent that the continental population did not grow for decades during the height of the trade. Indigenous genocide and the slave trade were directly facilitated by capitalism, and as a result it is largely the reason we are dealing with the various social mores and -isms. Roman slavery was not nearly as catastrophic, widespread, systemic, and brutal from what written records we have, and as a result we're not dealing with Roman supremacy fucking up the planet right now. It's white supremacy and European capitalism.

It's also amusing that you think authoritarian surveillance is the purview of Eastern European socialism. You're on the Internet. The government knows everything about you, and we are a hop, skip, and an election away from fascism infecting our government. If the worst comes to worst and they start rounding people up in the camps (as if we don't have camps on the border right now, to say nothing of our jail system), I assume you will be there to explain to the victims how this is the fault of the Soviets.

But ultimately, I can't predict the future, and I make no diagnoses about what system is next. But I can absolutely make a bet that this cannot last. No social, political, or economic system ever has in human history. We're 100,000 years old and capitalism is a comparative blink of an eye built on extremely obvious contradictions. This is not our end. Humans develop themselves whether you like it or not. Either humanity will figure out that we do not have to step on the necks of billions just to enrich thousands using the blind loyalty of millions who are deluded into thinking they will one day be the winners, or global warming will force our hand.

Thank you.