Ok, Capitalism is Spiraling Out of Control Right?

[bremon]

Had a brother in law looking at my 80s collection one day and he was like "we gotta find a way to make this retro pop culture thing work for you. Maybe a podcast or eBay store selling vintage toys or something". My wife monetized her hobby out of need for money but thankfully she's walked away from that and now is making art for herself or her friends and it's like nature is healing here.

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I understand where people come from with this idea, because everyone feels the need to get ahead, and so many people think if you have a job you love or is fun then it doesn't feel like work, but turning hobbies and passions into work can easily take the fun out of them and make what was once a way to decompress and unwind after work and turn it into something that adds more stress and anxiety to your life. I'm glad your wife was able to separate the two again.

Sometimes I just want to read a damn book, or paint a miniature, or build something with my power tools. It shouldn't be expected that those ought to be some sort of editing task, or a commission project for someone. People should be able to afford to exist on a single income and find fulfilment in their lives through personal time pursuing their own interests.

 

[DarthMasta]

Nothing.

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While that was true in many cases, there's no lack of revolutions where the people actually had stuff, but wanted something else. I'd think the biggest problem is lack of alternatives, at least for the people already living in "pretty much the best places you can be" in the world, if you're Greek in the financial crisis, there's not much of a place that you can point to and say "Tear it all down, we're gonna do it the X way now", it's all making sure what you already have works better, and the same is true for the US / every other country that already has the "best" system.

 

[mentok15]

okay - but why did it work for centuries? one, and this is actually the smaller of the two reasons, there were far more resources and land that could be exploited for the benefit of a much smaller population. two, it relied on the exploitation of people in the form of slavery, colonization, genocide, child labor, and lack of regulation.

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How is this different than the supposed alternatives to capitalism? The USSR was an empire itself. After the CCP won the civil war they conquered Tibet and began oppression, exploitation, colonisation.

early 20th century legislation and new government agencies protected consumers because capitalists would never have done it themselves. and i'm pretty confident in saying that since they had centuries to do it themselves and didn't.

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I said earlier in this thread it needs regulation to function, and it needs regulation to prevent the exportation of exploitation to countries that lack the power to do anything against it.

 

[Bengraven]

I understand where people come from with this idea, because everyone feels the need to get ahead, and so many people think if you have a job you love or is fun then it doesn't feel like work, but turning hobbies and passions into work can easily take the fun out of them and make what was once a way to decompress and unwind after work and turn it into something that adds more stress and anxiety to your life. I'm glad your wife was able to separate the two again.

Sometimes I just want to read a damn book, or paint a miniature, or build something with my power tools. It shouldn't be expected that those ought to be some sort of editing task, or a commission project for someone. People should be able to afford to exist on a single income and find fulfilment in their lives through personal time pursuing their own interests.

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100%. Writing ruined music for me, for example. I've always wanted to be a professional writer and even to this day I bear a song and my first thought is where that song would fit in an adaptation of my novel. For over 20 years I've been doing that to myself.

And you're probably spot on about the brother in law. He is bipolar and manic depressive and he was raised to "stack cash, retire early, get a house in south beach with a foreign wife".

Anyway this is my last post on what was a one off joke.

 

[AniHawk]

How is this different than the supposed alternatives to capitalism? The USSR was an empire itself. After the CCP won the civil war they conquered Tibet and began oppression, exploitation, colonisation.

I said earlier in this thread it needs regulation to function, and it needs regulation to prevent the exportation of exploitation to countries that lack the power to do anything against it.

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i think that the real hero here is the regulation, not the capitalism that it keeps in check. i mentioned it as an example earlier, but after california deregulated electricity, it took less than four years before there was an electricity crisis in the state.

like what is the issue with a government health care system? people here like medicare and don't want to get rid of it. in america, we have public roads, schools, fire departments, parks, libraries and those are not inherently in some state of disrepair by virtue of being publicly funded. in california, we regularly vote where we want our tax dollars to be spent.

i don't think we would need to do away with democracy to live without capitalism.

 

[HarryHengst]

It's worked for centuries, longer than any system that's come since trying to replace it.

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Well yes, if you consider things like colonialism and exploitation of workers and child labour and the horror show that were 19th century factories and the deliberate causing of hunger by the UK and the US overthrowing governments to defend business interests all as working fine, then sure, capitalism worked.

Funny also that you immediately went with the ''but the USSR!!!!" defense of capitalism.

 

[TheApatheticOne]

I'll be spending this week trying to figure out next steps. I have too much debt due to a variety of reasons (medical, house, kids needs, dental, etc.) and with everything rising since 2020 and moving "the shells" around and bandaid on bandaid action, Im about to go bonk. I'm making more than ever and if I had no debt I'd be okay. It's bad timing as Im over a year in living with my ex/baby momma and trying to get out. Stress and depression in FULL swing.

I don't know how anyone is getting by.
- groceries, even if buying conservatively, store brand and coupons, deals, etc., almost impossible not to spend 50 and walk out with nothing.
- the value of the home we purchased in 2019 has went up so much our mortgage just jumped last week by $200!! This is on top of our community and HOA fees going up.
- my car insurance has went up from $40ish to almost $90. No accidents, tickets, not a thing. Shopping around doesn't help.
- spring is the Devil recently. Last year around this time, we had one week where we had to get the HVAC repaired, I had to get a root canal, a rock hit my window on my car, our garbage disposal went out, and our dishwasher died (still haven't fixed/replaced, been handwashing since). This month, our lawn mower died, flat tire, medical expenses, and just found out from my baby momma that my daughter's summer camp went up to $2,350 this year!

Sorry for the long post/rant, but shit, it's not even being nickel and dime'd anymore, it's getting $50'd and $100'd. Every single thing is going up, and most by a lot. My only hope is that the bank can help, I'm worried if I have to file for bankruptcy that it's going to impact my ability to get a decent place to live and have my kids every other weekend.

 

[mentok15]

i think that the real hero here is the regulation, not the capitalism that it keeps in check. i mentioned it as an example earlier, but after california deregulated electricity, it took less than four years before there was an electricity crisis in the state.

like what is the issue with a government health care system? people here like medicare and don't want to get rid of it. in america, we have public roads, schools, fire departments, parks, libraries and those are not inherently in some state of disrepair by virtue of being publicly funded. in california, we regularly vote where we want our tax dollars to be spent.

i don't think we would need to do away with democracy to live without capitalism.

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I'm not against a mixed economy, but those examples aren't an entire economy. I don't believe a totally centrally planned economy is a better alternative.

Funny also that you immediately went with the ''but the USSR!!!!" defense of capitalism.

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How is it funny? It's the largest attempt of running a modern society based on a non-capitalist system. I also mentioned the CCP, maybe I should bring up Pol Pot next time?

How do you want comparisons to be made? Should I only compare it to the prophet Karl Marx and the religious texts theory? Look I'm not delusional and think capitalism is the end of human progress, but I don't think any of the proposed alternatives are the right way.

 

[entremet]

It's worked for centuries, longer than any system that's come since trying to replace it.

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Because resources haven't been completely exhausted.

My issue with capitalism is the infinite growth model. It's just not sustainable.

 

[IpKaiFung]

It's worked for centuries, longer than any system that's come since trying to replace it.

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Feudalism worked for longer, we should go back to that since capitalism isn't working.

 

[Culex]

Average Joe is struggling to balance crippling debt and low pay, with the constant threat of your job disappearing.

Meanwhile the wealthy continue to buy their 50 million dollar mansions and sky rise units.

 

[Gunny T Highway]

Capitalism as a concept is good, but it is greed and the pursuit of infinite growth being the biggest problem. Pretty sure Adam Smith did not foresee what late stage capitalism would turn out to be.

 

[Thordinson]

It's worked for centuries, longer than any system that's come since trying to replace it.

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There were systems that lasted longer.

But we have to ask who is Capitalism working for? Is it working for the Global South whose resources are being exploited so the West can live comfortably? I don't think it's exactly working for them.

I don't think the systems trying to replace them are failing because they are bad but because the Capitalist class has been murdering a ton of folks to stop any system attempting to replace it.

 

[Bio Booster Armoire]

Yes. I got a dose first-hand this week - bosses crowing about how many thousands of pounds of profit they're making only to cut everyone's hours when people need them most, and this as we're entering the busiest period of the year.

Literally working people to the point of exhaustation, physically and mentally, while they sit around laughing, drinking and eating on the company's dime. Actual serf vibes.

Handed in my notice today. Fuck 'em, I'd rather be poor and happy than help facilitate their greed. /rant

 

[Tomasoares]

Because resources haven't been completely exhausted.

My issue with capitalism is the infinite growth model. It's just not sustainable.

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Yep, resource exhaustion and global warming.
Nothing that can't be solved with good regulation policies, like with everything else in this world, but ofc, much much easier said than done.

 

[Motorcycle Dork]

not like a bunch of billionaires got together and thought up a way to get even richer, and everyone got on board

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Bilderberg Meeting - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Allen & Company Sun Valley Conference - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

World Economic Forum - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You was saying?

 

[Gunny T Highway]

Yes. I got a dose first-hand this week - bosses crowing about how many thousands of pounds of profit they're making only to cut everyone's hours when people need them most, and this as we're entering the busiest period of the year.

Literally working people to the point of exhaustation, physically and mentally, while they sit around laughing, drinking and eating on the company's dime. Actual serf vibes.

Handed in my notice today. Fuck 'em, I'd rather be poor and happy than help facilitate their greed. /rant

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Funny enough I left an old job once when one of my assistant managers showed me emails about congratulating so and so on their getting a new head office position. But then he told me those people were already head office staff and they just created new positions to skirt past the pay ceiling to earn more money. While me lowly employee # whatever get a pittance yearly increase. Fuck people at the top.

 

[entremet]

Yep, resource exhaustion and global warming.
Nothing that can't be solved with good regulation policies, like with everything else in this world, but ofc, much much easier said than done.

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Also commerce and trade existed before Capitalism. Way before. I think sometimes folks mix the two up.

But the primary distinguishing is the reinvestment component. Adam Smith mentions this Wealth of Nations:


"When a landlord, a weaver or a shoemaker has greater profits than he needs to maintain his own family, he uses the surplus to employ more assistants in order to further increase his profits. The more profits he has, the more assistants he can employ. It follows that an increase in the profits of private entrepreneurs is the basis for the increase in collective wealth and prosperity… Smith's claim that the selfish urge to increase private profits is the basis for collective wealth is one of the most revolutionary ideas in human history – revolutionary not just from an economic perspective, but even more so from a moral and political perspective. What Smith says is, in fact the greed is good, and that by becoming richer I benefit everybody, not just myself. Egoism is altruism.

A crucial part of the modern capitalist economy was the emergence of a new ethic, according to which profits ought to be reinvested in production. This brings about more profits, which are again reinvested in production, which brings more profits, et cetera ad infinitum."

My biggest issue with Capitalism is also can be very cartel like. This already happened many times. This is where liberatarian misunderstand completely.

 

[Trey]

It feels more immediate because instant communication allows us all to share the collective experience in real time, and it feels more personal because a dramatic portion of the wage gap growth is based on our own data fueling direct advertisement and machine learning.

 

[Ernest]

It's not even that shit's getting expensive, but that the shit they're selling is getting fucking cheap and disposable!

Like, small example, we just bought a washer/dryer, and they just came with general instructions for all models, no real instructions for ours - we had to look it up online. Like, they can't even spend a dollar on $1,000 items to include instructions! And that's to say nothing of how these new appliances will only last a fraction of the 20 years our previous appliances lasted.

It's just that this perpetual requirement to increase profits for shareholder cannot be sustained without cheapening the product, and screwing your workforce.

 

[Observable]

A close friend of mine has a restaurant, they sell relatively low price healthy food with mostly an Asian background, really popular place and they were able to live a pretty good life because of it before COVID.

Over the last two years their suppliers have implemented price increase over price increase, some ingredients have gone up 70%. Not only that but because of the high inflation their landlord was able to increase the monthly rent by 12%, their electricity and gas bills have gone up significantly, being in Europe their salary costs have gone up about 20% while they tried to mitigate it by increasing their own hours in the restaurant. I'm helping them with their financial management, and they have now increased prices to offset the loss in margin, but there's a limit to what people are willing to pay.

Like I said they have a pretty popular place, but I feel like the only option they have next is reduce the quality/quantity of what they're offering for a certain price and hope people don't notice. There will be people that'll say that these are the forces of the market, and if they cant survive then they're not meant to survive, but this is a business that was thriving before COVID and with a similar cost structure would be even doing better than before.

All this to say that it's not just us consumers getting f'd by the current situation, I think it's a lot of small business owners as well and a lot will fail. It's just not sustainable.

 

[Crossing Eden]

It's worked for centuries, longer than any system that's come since trying to replace it.

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No it didn't. People being forced to engage with a horribly flawed system does not mean that the system works. Hence the situation where people are living paycheck to paycheck and like, three generations of people cannot afford a house. Never stan for capitalism and please pick up a history book. 👍

 

[Reflecting Sky]

Unfortunately so-called late-stage capitalism is also a very fertile ground for fascist ideologues to play into people's irrational and unexamined aspects. We see a far-right swing all across the globe as there's barely any class consciousness. The biggest threat to future freedoms I think is the white moderate, the "enlightened centrist", who loves to compromise on important issues and loves to play the "both sides"-game. Fuck that. Martin Luther King already wrote about this issue sixty years ago.

 

[Morgan1994]

It has always been spiraling out, you now realize that it's affecting you.
This has been a problem since the creation of any civilization. The main issue has always been what can you do for me, not what can I do for you. So if you can't do anything you are then considered a nuisance, look at homeless people, they are treated like scum, even though they are people like us.

But the thing is no one gives a shit about them until they are them. So you didn't care until it hit you and yeah we all know this, we've all been through this so welcome, enjoy your stay.

This has been an issue since the forming of a country. And there is no solution, we rather not burn everything down just for you. Do you know how many people would die if we did that? A lot, so yeah doing that just for you would be the most stupid thing to do. The smartest thing to do is to let it pile up, because think about it if everyone is trying to be at the top like it or not, you really don't want to be at the bottom so it becomes a fight to the death even if you want to change things.

This is how it works and why it works. It is a very smart system, one that probably would never break down.

 

[Panquequera]

this world is hell, this system is hell. People shouldn't be suffering, we shouldn't be worried of how useful or profitable we are, I'm tired it's depressing.

I'm from argentina btw and I have been living almost all of my 20's in constant crisis (and I'll probably live my 30's also like that) and worst part is that as long as the current piece of absolutely foul shit that is in government has one or two numbers that are "decent" he's still going to keep in power because people still believe in this stupid fairytale that if rich people are doing good then they'll share some of that with the rest and WE ARE ALSO GOING TO BE ALL GOOD, therefore no taxes for them and all the benefits to keep doing whatever the fuck they want.

 

[Palas]

It's worked for centuries, longer than any system that's come since trying to replace it.

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Slavery just works, man. We did it for like 90% of our recorded history with no systemic problems other than revolts. And as soon as we got rid of it, what do we get? Climate change. We should go back to it.

 

[Dice]

We need more fire and revolts.

 

[entremet]

It has always been spiraling out, you now realize that it's affecting you.

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Right. Ask the Global South.

I think it's becoming more of a thing because the traditionally "successful" demographics, the winners of colonialism historically, are feeling the pain now.

 

[Version 3.0]

Bilderberg Meeting - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Allen & Company Sun Valley Conference - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

World Economic Forum - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

You was saying?

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Either you didn't read these, didn't read my post, or don't understand one or the other, or both. None of these is the nefarious origin story of the meeting where capitalism was "designed". Though you are mentioned in the first:

it has provoked conspiracy theories

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The basic idea of capitalism is ''profits go to the owners''. That idea in itself is so fundamentally broken that capitalism cannot work.

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I'd say it's even more fundamental. It's that the owner is whomever puts up the money. Not the person doing the work. Or, as many have said, it's right in the name: capital. Money is the only thing that matters.

But anyway, yes, it is indeed fundamentally flawed. That doesn't really mean it's been broken from day 1. There are ways to mitigate that. I mean, not so long ago, we had strong unions, with such things as pensions, for example. And of course, regulation.

The problems that have gotten out of control in relatively recent times are due to the incessant pooling of money at the "top" (I would say bottom; money flows downhill), and the acceleration of the same as the feedback cycle "spirals out of control", hence the OP.

Was it inevitable? I would argue no, and of course I also argued that it is not "designed" with this outcome in mind. But either way, here we are.

 

[Nepenthe]

But anyway, yes, it is indeed fundamentally flawed. That doesn't really mean it's been broken from day 1.

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From day 1, to secure the wealth needed to get capitalism going, they had to rely on the most aggressive and brutal form of slavery in history tilling on land that was stolen from the millions already living in the Americas. Turns out people won't want to work to enrich some bozos from another continent drunk off Manifest Destiny without being forced to at literal gunpoint.

If your system is only viable with slavery, economic disenfranchisement, and having a shitload of guns, it is absolutely flawed.

 

[DarthMasta]

The idea that capitalism cannot work is... simplistic as hell because there's no system that would survive "we'll let some of the people do whatever the hell they want".

 

[Cocaine Jesus]

ITT: middle class white westerners get sticker shock and this is the line in the sand that makes capitalism not palatable to them

Like buddy the entire system is predicated on ruthless exploitation and extraction. You fundamentally cannot make someone extravagantly wealthy without depriving others. Every penny of profit is stolen from workers or, in a more literal sense, from resources stolen from other countries. People in the global south and minority groups within the imperial core have been doing all the heavy lifting for centuries but we've been successfully propagandized into turning a blind eye to mass human suffering for our own benefit (largely through insane levels of racism and nationalism).

This exploitation has broadened its base and expanded inward to extract additional wealth in the pursuit of infinite growth but it is far from a new phenomenon, simply the next logical step. This is always how it's worked, please don't say things like "we just need better regulation" as those are largely domestic policies to determine how much exploitation companies can get away with here. Sure, you can impose a higher minimum wage and various environmental protections but then the labor and ecological damage is outsourced to a country without those protections. Or to migrant workers within the country that don't have the privilege to have any say in the matter.

I'm not trying to be condescending or moralizing, I understand most people here have not personally experienced the "short end of the stick" of global capitalism. It just sounds ridiculous to say that yeah, literally billions of people have been adversely affected by capitalism over centuries, but now that it personally affects me, an affluent and educated (likely white) person, the system is DOOMED. It's clearly from the perspective of a very privileged person that's used to getting their way and is shocked to realize that they don't have nearly as much power as they thought

 

[Thordinson]

The idea that capitalism cannot work is... simplistic as hell because there's no system that would survive "we'll let some of the people do whatever the hell they want".

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Well, sure, but it is inherent in Capitalism. The Capitalist class will always be able to do whatever they want as Capitalism inherently concentrates wealth to them.

 

[Version 3.0]

From day 1, to secure the wealth needed to get capitalism going, they had to rely on the most aggressive and brutal form of slavery in history tilling on land that was stolen from the millions already living in the Americas. Turns out people won't want to work to enrich some bozos from another continent drunk off Manifest Destiny without being forced to at literal gunpoint.

If your system is only viable with slavery, economic disenfranchisement, and having a shitload of guns, it is absolutely flawed.

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But these things (aside from guns, not sure how that is relevant) did improve over time. Workers got rights, people's standard of living dramatically improved. Capitalism isn't responsible for the entirety of the bad parts of human history. It's way more complicated than that. It's flawed, it's not evil incarnate. Jeez.

 

[Nepenthe]

The idea that capitalism cannot work is... simplistic as hell because there's no system that would survive "we'll let some of the people do whatever the hell they want".

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Capitalism is already a system where some of the people do whatever the hell they want. Those people are called billionaires.

ITT: middle class white westerners get sticker shock and this is the line in the sand that makes capitalism not palatable to them

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Yep. They were okay with the sheer ravaging of the majority of people on this planet until their paychecks got tight. Walter Rodney rolling in his grave.

 

[Crossing Eden]

The idea that capitalism cannot work is... simplistic as hell because there's no system that would survive "we'll let some of the people do whatever the hell they want".

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So based on that we can infer that capitalism is not a system that can work given that the 1% do whatever they want. 🙃

 

[DarthMasta]

Well, sure, but it is inherent in Capitalism. The Capitalist class will always be able to do whatever they want as Capitalism inherently concentrates wealth to them.

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Think back to any other system that has existed on Earth, and you'll find that the same is true, you just replace the Capitalist with some other class, and how you accumulate power, maybe it's not by getting rich but getting land or getting people to believe in your god or whatever.

It is what it is. Once civilization started and people began to specialize, you get people with better lives than others, and gaming to system to make it so. What needs to happen, always, if for the community to push as hard as they can to take the power back, with the community being bigger and bigger, since now the few have the power to impact the whole world.

Easier said than done, sure.

ETA:

And yeah, capitalism as it exists isn't working. I mean, obviously. Ans has never worked for everyone at the same time. I just think that it could work, once the many put in rules so the few don't just do whatever they want.

 

[Thordinson]

Think back to any other system that has existed on Earth, and you'll find that the same is true, you just replace the Capitalist with some other class, and how you accumulate power, maybe it's not by getting rich but getting land or getting people to believe in your god or whatever.

It is what it is. Once civilization started and people began to specialize, you get people with better lives than others, and gaming to system to make it so. What needs to happen, always, if for the community to push as hard as they can to take the power back, with the community being bigger and bigger, since now the few have the power to impact the whole world.

Easier said than done, sure.

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You said:

The idea that capitalism cannot work is... simplistic as hell because there's no system that would survive "we'll let some of the people do whatever the hell they want".

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I'm simply saying that letting some people do whatever they want is inherent in Capitalism so yes it cannot work.

Taking the power back requires getting rid of Capitalism as the power will always reside with the Capitalist class. The wealth and power will always concentrate to them.

 

[Nepenthe]

But these things (aside from guns, not sure how that is relevant) did improve over time. Workers got rights, people's standard of living dramatically improved. Capitalism isn't responsible for the entirety of the bad parts of human history. It's way more complicated than that. It's flawed, it's not evil incarnate. Jeez.

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Holy moly. Do you think Africans got enslaved because whites asked really nicely "Hey, wanna give us trillions of dollars worth of free labor over the next four centuries that we are absolutely not going to give back to your future generations?" No. It was done militarily. That's where the guns come in.

And most workers during the history of capitalism, including today, do not exist in a state where their rights and standard of living improved. Our cheap shit comes at the cost of human dignity. We literally still rely on slavery and horrific working conditions for raw materials, food, and disposable goods.

Yes, if you're lucky to be born in a Western country you get cozy shit like a fucking union (edit: you get the chance at a union if you're in the US. Most people here aren't unionized. Womp womp). But there's no unionization for child workers harvesting the chocolate you eat. I know, you can't see the child so they don't register to you. But I assure you they exist and they matter as a human being. Like fuck, dude.

And no one is also saying capitalism is responsible for every ill. We're saying it's responsible for the economic ills of today. It's literally the dominant fucking economic system of the world. Sorry, but it's responsible for the majority of bullshit going on right now.

 

[Palas]

But these things (aside from guns, not sure how that is relevant) did improve over time. Workers got rights, people's standard of living dramatically improved. Capitalism isn't responsible for the entirety of the bad parts of human history. It's way more complicated than that. It's flawed, it's not evil incarnate. Jeez.

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Oh, it's not evil incarnate. It's not incarnate, after all. It's a system, developed historically, designed over many centuries to concentrate wealth by generating capital assets and using them to finance labor that justifies the existence of said capital. It's kind of brilliant, really.

Inequality and negotiable fundamental rights are features of capitalism, not bugs. All of these advances come from forces opposing capitalism and threatening to leverage the inequality it creates against the ruling class. If left to its own devices, inequality fuels social unrest. The demonization of the Left makes it so that this social unrest hinges on topics outside of the labor dynamics: nation, race and gender. Fascism rises and crushes capitalism while also embracing it. We've seen it time and again.

 

[RedVejigante]

But these things (aside from guns, not sure how that is relevant) did improve over time. Workers got rights, people's standard of living dramatically improved. Capitalism isn't responsible for the entirety of the bad parts of human history. It's way more complicated than that. It's flawed, it's not evil incarnate. Jeez.

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Capitalism cannot come into existence or continue to thrive without massive amounts of oppression and exploitation. It's not just an unfortunate side effect it's baked into the very makeup of the system. I don't know whether or not that qualifies as "evil incarnate", mainly because I don't know what that phrase is supposed to mean, but it certainly qualifies as a system that should be dismantled.

 

[StuKen]

But these things (aside from guns, not sure how that is relevant) did improve over time. Workers got rights, people's standard of living dramatically improved. Capitalism isn't responsible for the entirety of the bad parts of human history. It's way more complicated than that. It's flawed, it's not evil incarnate. Jeez.

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Those rights and increases in the standard of living were not just handed down one day by magnanimous capital holders who thought, "I guess I have enough now.". They were earned in literal blood by the collective actions of labour movments as they were beaten and killed by police and strike breakers on the payroll of capital holders.

 

[Palas]

Think back to any other system that has existed on Earth, and you'll find that the same is true, you just replace the Capitalist with some other class, and how you accumulate power, maybe it's not by getting rich but getting land or getting people to believe in your god or whatever.

It is what it is. Once civilization started and people began to specialize, you get people with better lives than others, and gaming to system to make it so. What needs to happen, always, if for the community to push as hard as they can to take the power back, with the community being bigger and bigger, since now the few have the power to impact the whole world.

Easier said than done, sure.

ETA:

And yeah, capitalism as it exists isn't working. I mean, obviously. Ans has never worked for everyone at the same time. I just think that it could work, once the many put in rules so the few don't just do whatever they want.

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I find the "it's just human nature" cop-out so cute because then capitalism is also Unavoidable. Inequality is inherernt to the human condition, see, so why don't we just let it thrive until we find omething better?

Fisher wrote a whole ass book so that no one could say absurd shit like this.

 

[Thordinson]

But these things (aside from guns, not sure how that is relevant) did improve over time. Workers got rights, people's standard of living dramatically improved. Capitalism isn't responsible for the entirety of the bad parts of human history. It's way more complicated than that. It's flawed, it's not evil incarnate. Jeez.

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It's not like Capitalists have workers these things willingly anyway.

Also, the idea that everyone was in poverty, because of subsistence living, before capitalism is doesn't make sense.

 

[FTF]

I think you mean more out of control.

 

[drarmstrong]

I've mentioned this before in relation to the future of work (specifically regarding Working From Home policies post-Covid). There comes a point in time where there is a big shake up in how the social contract which unofficially governs how we work and behave ourselves is fundamentally altered. Once upon a time the 40 hour week Monday to Friday ushered in by Henry Ford was a big victory for workers as it introduced set routines for his workers that his competitors had to adopt to keep hold of their workers. And by extension attract new workers creating a new paradigm that spread across industries.

Now the 40 hour work week is seen as a trap designed to keep you peasants whereas 100 years ago it was seen as liberating. Back then it allowed the employees who were practically all men the time to spend their weekends with their families and Ford as part of his social engineering beliefs also provided classes for immigrants to learn English and 'become' American the way he saw Americanism as to keep this cycle going.

My general point here is capitalism post-WW1 was seen as in dire straits after the industrial economies of Europe were wrecked in battle and a generation of young men who would have entered the workforce did not return home from the battlefields. Uproar and public backlash to the 19th century attitude to using children as workers in industrial work as well as the women's rights movement created the conditions that led to fundamental change to the social contract as it was then.

I believe we are entering the new point of a reformed social contract and that is led by work from home as we are forever transitioning into an information and network based economy in the west.

I do not believe Capitalism will be overthrown however. First of all I believe there is a very vocal echo chamber on social media where blaming capitalism for your every ill has reached a point where it is as much a synonym now for "everything that inconveniences me" as much as Communism traditionally was in America. Secondly it feels like there is a large reinforcing self-prophecy among people who are actually more wealthy than the average person where Doomerism is encouraged because burning the system down carries no consequence to them. The phrase "Late Stage Capitalism" comes as early as the 1920s. When exactly is this fateful final stage coming when it has been predicted for 100 years?

 

[DarthMasta]

I'm simply saying that letting some people do whatever they want is inherent in Capitalism so yes it cannot work.

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Not true. You have an history of Capitalism going off the road, Politicians realizing that way ended with their heads on spikes and putting guard rails back on.
Followed by rich people working very hard to undo that, and letting the rich do whatever the hell they want, because that's what always happens, people want stuff, and work to get it, at the expense of others if need be.

Even before, there is an history of capitalists getting too big and the State, with the State being Kings and Queens at the time saying something to the effect of "you seem to think having money gives you power, here, let me introduce you to the army".

The problem is that right now, the most powerful country in the world is deep in a "Laissez Faire is wonderful" phase. Probably helped a whole lot by pretty much all the media being owned by rich people.

 

[Thordinson]

Not true. You have an history of Capitalism going off the road, Politicians realizing that way ended with their heads on spikes and putting guard rails back on.
Followed by rich people working very hard to undo that, and letting the rich do whatever the hell they want, because that's what always happens, people want stuff, and work to get it, at the expense of others if need be.

Even before, there is an history of capitalists getting too big and the State, with the State being Kings and Queens at the time saying something to the effect of "you seem to think having money gives you power, here, let me introduce you to the army".

The problem is that right now, the most powerful country in the world is deep in a "Laissez Faire is wonderful" phase. Probably helped a whole lot by pretty much all the media being owned by rich people.

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Those are just fights between Capitalists.

And guard rails are just simply things to keep the working class pacified while the Capitalists continue to extract and exploit more and more. Those rights had to be paid for in blood by the working class. Capitalists won't give it up willingly.

Clearly, the system cannot work if you believe it working means more folks have money and power. It will always concentrate into the Capitalist class.

 

[balohna]

I have kids and I don't know what the hell they'll do career-wise. I figure they might as well just learn how to do stuff that interests them and hope it works out, and plan for them to live with us as long as they need to. I feel like pushing them towards lives all about finding the right career to make money is just setting them up for despair. I just want them to be as happy as they can be in this current system.

Cost of living is ridiculous. I don't know how people are making it work. I make decent money and it's still hard.

 

[DarthMasta]

I find the "it's just human nature" cop-out so cute because then capitalism is also Unavoidable. Inequality is inherernt to the human condition, see, so why don't we just let it thrive until we find omething better?

Fisher wrote a whole ass book so that no one could say absurd shit like this.

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I never said Capitalism is unavoidable. All that's unavoidable is people within whatever system working to change it to improve things for them, even if it means a worse result for others and the system itself.

So, want to implement, super turbo Communism? Hey, might work, it's not the third time, but close enough. You'll still get people working to make sure they get more than they "should", and if allowed to go on, resulting in people saying stuff like "Super Turbo Communism is spiraling out of control".