Ok, Capitalism is Spiraling Out of Control Right?

[TheEchosOfTheCyborg]

Things needed to change years back, it's infuriating seeing government scaling back on things needed to slow down/prevent climate change because of the rotten system, seeing Oil companies able to sue governments, rich people using their wealth and power to hurt people, Companies destroying the souls of thousands of creative minds.

In my life it's infuriating to see wildlife hospitals and animal charities struggle to stay afloat, homes for the homeless struggle to find room and payments to help the most helpless pay get denied and restricted while bigots, "Upper class" pus shits and Tory fuckers get wealthier and wealthier, all the while groups like Labour, built of the working class turn traitor. It feels like Politics have been so distorted by capitalism that it simply does not represent anyone now other than a few capitalists.

It scares me how the system is allowing fascism to grow, how so much of our services are run by at best "centralists" and at worse right wing monsters who will happily destroy the lives of thousands because they see their lives as nothing and that's just at their home countries, let's not even get into the millions of lives being destroyed around the world by Capitalism.

Hell even in something like gaming, this shit is destroying the lives of thousands of developers and journalists (linking to the thread about the abuses of Valnet Inc.), ruining lives through the exploitation of children, people with gambling addicts (and that's an ENTIRE another thing we can blame on capitalism), people with mental health issues and addictive personalities etc; all while we cheer on companies announcing record breaking revenues that will encourage them to layoff and abuse more workers lives and exploit more customers because it's never, never enough.

I know this is extreme but I truly believe their needs to to be wealth limits, where once you reach a cap, your money goes back into the system to help funding benefits. No one needs to be a billionaire or even a multi millionaire, I fully believe the system allowing that absurd wealth is part of the reason we're in this mess because it gives them to much power to exploit and corrupt the system for their own benefits.

 

[Divvy]

Ngl that hurts. Most people don't even hate the Global South, they just don't think about it at all

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They don't hate them because they have no power. Imagine a scenario where the people of the Congo overthrow their oppressors and start selling that cobalt at a fair price matching the labour put into extracting it, or hell, if they decide they don't want to be in the business of selling cobalt anymore. Imagine what the western response would be once the price of all our modern electronics skyrocket and people can't get phones and game consoles for cheap.

 

[NullPointer]

I do agree with the sentiment, but I don't think 'Capitalism' is the problem. Human greed is the key issue and its much harder to remove.

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But we do seem the celebrate the greed and the very greediest as heroes. Its revolting.

One thing I noticed about my more conservative friends is that none of them could even define the word 'greed'. It may as well not exist in their minds.

 

[Nepenthe]

They don't hate them because they have no power. Imagine a scenario where the people of the Congo overthrow their oppressors and start selling that cobalt at a fair price matching the labour put into extracting it, or hell, if they decide they don't want to be in the business of selling cobalt anymore. Imagine what the western response would be once the price of all our modern electronics skyrocket and people can't get phones and game consoles for cheap.

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We'd either bomb or sanction the fuck out of them (probably both), and a non-insignificant portion of Era would be cheering it on because how dare those fucking Negroes deny us what we're owed to make batteries?

 

[Motorcycle Dork]

Either you didn't read these, didn't read my post, or don't understand one or the other, or both. None of these is the nefarious origin story of the meeting where capitalism was "designed". Though you are mentioned in the first:

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I've read them. I am not disputing your point about why Capitalism was designed that way. It was your point that billionaires of not assembling and colluding, which in fact they do. While many conspiracy theories lack credibility, some do turn out to be true. Consider Boeing, what was once dismissed as conspiracy has been exposed through successive crashes, revealing corporate failings and corruptions. Or how about the tobacco industry hiding the harmful effects of smoking and how it causes lung cancer. If billionaires were not conspiring among themselves, why have we not seen substantial efforts to tackle climate change globally?

Billionaires & Millionaires lobby governments, influencing the wealth distribution in society.

Yes, of course. But those people fighting for workers' rights weren't fighting the system. They were fighting for the system to work better for them. Which it did, for a little while.

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[Divvy]

We'd either bomb or sanction the fuck out of them (probably both), and a non-insignificant portion of Era would be cheering it on because how dare those fucking Negroes deny us what we're owed to make batteries?

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They'd get blame for setting back environmentalism and dooming the planet for ending the flow of batteries, justifying boots on the ground

 

[NullPointer]

They'd get blame for setting back environmentalism and dooming the planet for ending the flow of batteries, justifying boots on the ground

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We'd blame it on Putin/terrorism/corruption or all of the above.

 

[Nepenthe]

They'd get blame for setting back environmentalism and dooming the planet for ending the flow of batteries, justifying boots on the ground

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The West: We're invading them because if we aren't able to produce electric cars, then our species will die from climate change.

Lefists: Have you ever thought of instead of just replacing what type of car we drive, we instead get as many cars off the road as possible by bolstering public transportation and more walkability so that less carbon dioxide is emitted from the production of these cars in the first place?

The West: .... Sounds like some fuckin' commie talk. >:(

 

[Horns]

Genuinely concerned for my young kids' future. At this rate they will never be able to afford a house or car. Tax rates are so low government will eventually spend more on interest than services. AI will certainly take a good deal number of jobs in the coming decades.

Since I am established and own a home I am less concerned for myself.

 

[BossAttack]

You seem to be under the impression I don't think Capitalism is exploitative. This is a mistaken impression.
I'm just not at all convinced that there exists a system that would be all that better, at least if history is any indication.

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If you understood history, then you would know there are plenty of other systems which are "better" if we accept that exploitation will occur no matter what. You could easily argue that feudalism is a better system so long as laws are strictly enforced requiring nobles to provide for the basic provisions of their peasants (shelter, food, medicine, etc.). In this system, the laborers are still exploited but never to the amount that they cannot meet their basic needs; unlike capitalism.

How is that not a "better" system if you agree that exploitation is inevitable and unavoidable?

 

[Praedyth]

I'm 24 and I just hope I'm able to get a comfortable home for when the climate gets really out of control. I'm not confident that I will, but at least I grew up in a place with a somewhat harsh climate.

 

[Cruxist]

It was out of control when it was founded upon wholesale Indigenous genocide, four centuries of African slavery, and aggressive land theft and economic disenfranchisement.

But yeah, now that farm-raised eggs are $6, there's advertisements on top of advertisements, and global warming in general keeps getting worse, the Westerners are finally panicking.

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Just quoting your first post because you've been preaching the truth in this thread, and I hugely appreciate it. Lots of folks that think it's only bad "now" need to read everything you've said.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

i'm noticing also that workplaces are getting steadily worse pretty much across the board, as businesses aim to get more out of their employees while ruthlessly cutting costs

 

[Messofanego]

And capitalism has this cult like control of people where socialism is even a bad word.

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[Nepenthe]

Just quoting your first post because you've been preaching the truth in this thread, and I hugely appreciate it. Lots of folks that think it's only bad "now" need to read everything you've said.

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"Man, things are getting bad, huh? Not like in the old days."

"Sir, your grandma passed out cookies at a lynching."

 

[DarthMasta]

How is that not a "better" system if you agree that exploitation is inevitable and unavoidable?

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I have no idea where you're going with this and how you got there from my "If powerful people can change the rules of the system without pushback it will be worse for most people and eventually break, no matter the system" position, but you do you, have a nice journey.

 

[Thesleepydweeb]

It has always been spiraling out, you now realize that it's affecting you.
This has been a problem since the creation of any civilization. The main issue has always been what can you do for me, not what can I do for you. So if you can't do anything you are then considered a nuisance, look at homeless people, they are treated like scum, even though they are people like us.

But the thing is no one gives a shit about them until they are them. So you didn't care until it hit you and yeah we all know this, we've all been through this so welcome, enjoy your stay.

This has been an issue since the forming of a country. And there is no solution, we rather not burn everything down just for you. Do you know how many people would die if we did that? A lot, so yeah doing that just for you would be the most stupid thing to do. The smartest thing to do is to let it pile up, because think about it if everyone is trying to be at the top like it or not, you really don't want to be at the bottom so it becomes a fight to the death even if you want to change things.

This is how it works and why it works. It is a very smart system, one that probably would never break down.

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You're right the US and other countries being able to continue on even as tens of millions are left behind has been an issue since the creation of the country. However, I don't agree its system is always spiraling out of control.

There's US polling data for example saying a lot of Americans want Trump back and trust him on the economy more than Biden. But 2019/2020 was an era where the typical American was worse off than they are now in 2024.

If the capitalist system is about to collapse, then millions appear to be severely unprepared. They're intentionally going out of their way to put themselves in worse financial situations.

It's also unusual in the US for wages for workers with lower pay to rise faster than the higher paid but that's happening right now. FBI recently reported a notable drop in crime as well. The US government says it's doing 28 trillion GDP.

Overall, the data and the behavior of many isn't consistent with a flawed, exploitative system on its last legs.

 

[BossAttack]

I have no idea where you're going with this and how you got there from my "If powerful people can change the rules of the system without pushback it will be worse for most people and eventually break, no matter the system" position, but you do you, have a nice journey.

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I'm not even sure what you're trying to say.

You proposed that capitalism is the best system, given all others, because exploitation will always exist. But with sufficient guard rails capitalism will ensure the least amount of inequitable exploitation. I simply provided you with a better system that has exploitation but with sufficient guard rails allows for an even lesser amount of inequitable exploitation. Under my feudalist proposition, no individual would ever go hungry or without shelter. That is not something capitalism can provide.

 

[Tortahegesztő]

Gas is close to $4 a gallon. How are minimum wage earners in a household making do.

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That's without taxes right? I payed ~6.5 for a gallon if I convert it, taxes included...in a country where net mean income is just under 1000 USD/month.

 

[Greenpaint]

Not an economist, but something about prevailing economic theory has always bothered me. It's the idea that deflation, as in general decrease in prices of goods and services, is the worst thing ever. I can think of a counter-example to this: imagine we discovered a source of infinite energy that is free, sustainable and safe. It would cause a total collapse of energy prices and thus deflation on massive scale. Yet it's obvious why such a thing would be the best thing to ever happen for humanity.

Now, it's impossible for such energy source to exist, but my example in my mind shows that there is definitely something broken in global economy and our understanding of it. I don't know what that is, but the elites of our capitalistic systems surely are the main beneficiaries of it.

 

[NetMapel]

The West: We're invading them because if we aren't able to produce electric cars, then our species will die from climate change.

Lefists: Have you ever thought of instead of just replacing what type of car we drive, we instead get as many cars off the road as possible by bolstering public transportation and more walkability so that less carbon dioxide is emitted from the production of these cars in the first place?

The West: .... Sounds like some fuckin' commie talk. >:(

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To be fair, that is a pretty North American specific problem. Europe and East Asia does public transits much better by comparison. Pockets of North America is also making improvements and it's wonderful to see. As somebody with an interest and passion in urban development, I feel the last thing we need is to label and politicize good urban development more. It was very sad to see 15-minutes city getting demonized by conservatives despite how much sense it makes :(

 

[Palas]

Not an economist, but something about prevailing economic theory has always bothered me. It's the idea that deflation, as in general decrease in prices of goods and services, is the worst thing ever. I can think of a counter-example to this: imagine we discovered a source of infinite energy that is free, sustainable and safe. It would cause a total collapse of energy prices and thus deflation on massive scale. Yet it's obvious why such a thing would be the best thing to ever happen for humanity.

Now, it's impossible for such energy source to exist, but my example in my mind shows that there is definitely something broken in global economy and our understanding of it. I don't know what that is, but the elites of our capitalistic systems surely are the main beneficiaries of it.

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This is actually one of the things that are easy to justify. The problem with deflation isn't what it does, it's what it's a sign of. It means the economy isn't working for anyone at a very fundamental level, because one way to define inflation is "the price of uncertainty", just like interest is "the price of currency". The future is by definition uncertain, so inflation is to be expected. If you have deflation, it means you are having to make up for the uncertainty of yesterday before you are even able to worry about what will happen tomorrow. Or, in very simple terms, you only lower your prices if you couldn't sell before at all, and that means you are hungry now.

 

[mentok15]

Feudalism worked for longer, we should go back to that since capitalism isn't working.

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Slavery just works, man. We did it for like 90% of our recorded history with no systemic problems other than revolts. And as soon as we got rid of it, what do we get? Climate change. We should go back to it.

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Are people proposing feudalism and slavery as a legitimate alternative to capitalism? Did you not read the bit where I said "system that's come since trying to replace it."?

There were systems that lasted longer.

But we have to ask who is Capitalism working for? Is it working for the Global South whose resources are being exploited so the West can live comfortably? I don't think it's exactly working for them.

I don't think the systems trying to replace them are failing because they are bad but because the Capitalist class has been murdering a ton of folks to stop any system attempting to replace it.

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So the capitalist killing people is why the USSR fell? Why China had their economic reforms?

No it didn't. People being forced to engage with a horribly flawed system does not mean that the system works. Hence the situation where people are living paycheck to paycheck and like, three generations of people cannot afford a house. Never stan for capitalism and please pick up a history book. 👍

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I'm not really stanning for capitalism, just that any of the current proposed alternatives are worse. Maybe you should read some history.

 

[DarthMasta]

You proposed that capitalism is the best system, given all others, because exploitation will always exist.

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I didn't say capitalism is the best, I said that whatever system we use, if the people who benefit the most are given carte blanche to mess with the rules as has happened with capitalism, it will eventually turn to shit for everyone but the people changing the rules, and then break.

And sure, I don't know of a better system in history, but that doesn't make capitalism the best, depends on what you're talking about, other systems were better for some stuff, worse for others, there are no simple answers.

 

[Greenpaint]

This is actually one of the things that is easy to justify. The problem with deflation isn't what it does, it's what it's a sign of. It means the economy isn't working for anyone at a very fundamental level, because one way to define inflation is "the price of uncertainty", just like interest is "the price of currency". The future is by definition uncertain, so inflation is to be expected. If you have deflation, it means you are having to make up for the uncertainty of yesterday before you are even able to worry about what will happen tomorrow. Or, in very simple terms, you only lower your prices if you couldn't sell before at all, and that means you are hungry now.

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That definition is very unintuitive for me, I can't grasp the meaning of it from your text.

But you say the problem is what it's signaling. But can't there be multiple causes for that deflationary pressure? How do you know which one you are fighting with interest rates? Which brings me to my point that isn't technological progress deflationary by it's very nature? It gets cheaper to produce a good or a service because of increased efficiency?

So when central banks use interest rates to promote inflation, aren't we in essence trying to negate the effects of progress?

 

[LumberPanda]

This is actually one of the things that are easy to justify. The problem with deflation isn't what it does, it's what it's a sign of. It means the economy isn't working for anyone at a very fundamental level, because one way to define inflation is "the price of uncertainty", just like interest is "the price of currency". The future is by definition uncertain, so inflation is to be expected. If you have deflation, it means you are having to make up for the uncertainty of yesterday before you are even able to worry about what will happen tomorrow. Or, in very simple terms, you only lower your prices if you couldn't sell before at all, and that means you are hungry now.

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The line of reasoning that clicked with me was "if your resources are going to be worth more tomorrow compared to today, why wouldn't you hoard your resources?" Why would you pay for anyone's labour today, when if you can wait until tomorrow the price of that labour goes down.

Ultimately also defines my problem with capitalism - it's all built on gambling that my money will be worth more later than actually using it to pay for actual labour, services, or goods now. Which can only not be the dumbest waste of money ever if the government perpetuates and feeds the pyramid scheme.

 

[Thordinson]

So the capitalist killing people is why the USSR fell? Why China had their economic reforms?

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You do realize that Capitalists currently control Russia, yes? And that they are known for making folks fall out of windows, yes?

But, sure, let's concede that Capitalists aren't to blame for the USSR falling and China's economic reforms. Do we just then ignore all the Communist governments/movements that Capitalists countries had killed, coup'd, and imprisoned replacing them with horrible dictatorships because they were friendlier to capital?

Or should we look at the Capitalist countries that have had massive failures to as if they are immune to them?

I'm not really stanning for capitalism, just that any of the current proposed alternatives are worse. Maybe you should read some history.

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Reading history shows a lot of blood on Capitalist hands. I don't think it is somehow better.

Not so fun fact: My wife doesn't speak her native language because Capitalists coup'd the Queen of her homeland and banned her language. This after Capitalists convinced the monarchy to become a nation state so they could continue exploiting the land and people.

 

[Nepenthe]

To be fair, that is a pretty North American specific problem. Europe and East Asia does public transits much better by comparison. Pockets of North America is also making improvements and it's wonderful to see. As somebody with an interest and passion in urban development, I feel the last thing we need is to label and politicize good urban development more. It was very sad to see 15-minutes city getting demonized by conservatives despite how much sense it makes :(

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Oh definitely.

Edit: Sent way too soon lol. I was going to say I long for a public transportation system like Japan's. Just as well, it should be noted that a lot of the push for electric vehicles is simultaneously coming at the expense of public transportation initiatives. Because of you can get to where you want to go without a car, how is Elon going to sell billions of Teslas?

 

[Palas]

That definition is very unintuitive for me, I can't grasp the meaning of it from your text.

But you say the problem is what it's signaling. But can't there be multiple causes for that deflationary pressure? How do you know which one you are fighting? Which brings me to my point that isn't technological progress deflationary by it's very nature? It gets cheaper to produce a good or a service because of increased efficiency?

So when central banks use rates to promote inflation, aren't we in essence trying to negate the effects of progress?

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Eh, this is really hard to say. It's not essentially deflationary as much as it's a vector of ephemeralization, as in uses less resources to make the same thing. But sometimes "thing" isn't directly countable or the complexity of the production chain is so big that it takes up more of another resource. Or there isn't really an upper limit to that need (either because it's something of a zero-sum game, like relative military power, or because scarcity is artificial). When central banks make money appear out of nowhere to warm up an economy, they're just hoping that money will be spent in productive activities that will justify the existence of that money, and inflation is just a controlled byproduct.

For reference, the counter-example: runaway inflation means the person selling you a tomato can't trust that they will be able to buy tomatoes to sell again tomorrow, so they have to put a price that make sure they'll be able to keep their operation. This is, however, a chain reaction: every worker in that chain is experiencing that same effect and will raise their prices accordingly. From the supply side of things, not knowing if you'll be able to sell again means you have to sell for as much as possible now; likewise, deflation means the worst has already actually happened, and you need whatever money you can get.

 

[DarthMasta]

That definition is very unintuitive for me, I can't grasp the meaning of it from your text.

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If you know that stuff is going to be cheaper tomorrow, you wait until tomorrow to buy stuff. You only buy today what you absolutely cannot avoid buying.
And if tomorrow the same is true, repeat. So, lots of "nice to haves" never get bought, because it's always a bad idea, since they'll be cheaper in the future.

Repeat across the entire economy, with everyone thinking the same, with everyone stuffing money in a safe and leaving it there, and the economy slows to a crawl and parts of it just straight up die since nobody is spending.

Any better?

 

[TeaberryShark]

I just got pulled over by state police and accused of being on my phone while driving and charged a almost a weeks wages for the ticket and court costs.... I was not on my phone. I love it here!

 

[Nepenthe]

I just got pulled over by state police and accused of being on my phone while driving and charged a almost a weeks wages for the ticket and court costs.... I was not on my phone. I love it here!

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Did you ever try not being poor? /s

 

[TeaberryShark]

Did you ever try not being poor? /s

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the thought crossed my mind... but oh how boring life would be if constant struggle wasn't my ride or die lol

 

[Greenpaint]

Eh, this is really hard to say. It's not essentially deflationary as much as it's a vector of ephemeralization, as in uses less resources to make the same thing. But sometimes "thing" isn't directly countable or the complexity of the production chain is so big that it takes up more of another resource. Or there isn't really an upper limit to that need (either because it's something of a zero-sum game, like relative military power, or because scarcity is artificial). When central banks make money appear out of nowhere to warm up an economy, they're just hoping that money will be spent in productive activities that will justify the existence of that money, and inflation is just a controlled byproduct. For reference, the counter-example: runaway inflation means the person selling you a tomato can't trust that they will be able to buy tomatoes to sell again tomorrow, so they have to put a price that make sure they'll be able to keep their operation. This is, however, a chain reaction: every worker in that chain is experiencing that same effect and will raise their prices accordingly. From the supply side of things, not knowing if you'll be able to sell again means you have to sell for as much as possible now; likewise, deflation means the worst has already actually happened, and you need whatever money you can get.

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Oh there is a word for it, thanks. And I suppose so, that's the role of the central banks and there is only so much they can do with this one metric. In a functional economy it is responsibility of the government to perform the economic fine-tuning with additional policies.

If you know that stuff is going to be cheaper tomorrow, you wait until tomorrow to buy stuff. You only buy today what you absolutely cannot avoid buying.
And if tomorrow the same is true, repeat. So, lots of "nice to haves" never get bought, because it's always a bad idea, since they'll be cheaper in the future.

Repeat across the entire economy, with everyone thinking the same, with everyone stuffing money in a safe and leaving it there, and the economy slows to a crawl and parts of it just straight up die since nobody is spending.

Any better?

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In an uncontrolled fashion it would be bad yes, 20% yearly deflation sounds catastrophic to me. But something like 1%? 2%?

Yes it would mean people will buy only what they feel they need, but on global scale there are a lot of people who still lack even those bare essentials. With cheaper prices eventually everyone around the globe has all they need and there will be no more demand for more stuff because people don't feel like they need anything. Doesn't sound that horrible to me?

Of course, eventually inflation would be great to push greater needs again to promote technological progress, but a period of controlled deflation COULD have benefits. But maybe I'm just living in a fantasy land on this.

 

[Booshka]

Oh there is a word for it, thanks. And I suppose so, that's the role of the central banks and there is only so much they can do with this one metric. In a functional economy it is responsibility of the government to perform the economic fine-tuning with additional policies.



In an uncontrolled fashion it would be bad yes, 20% yearly deflation sounds catastrophic to me. But something like 1%? 2%?

Yes it would mean people will buy only what they feel they need, but on global scale there are a lot of people who still lack even those bare essentials. With cheaper prices eventually everyone around the globe has all they need and there will be no more demand for more stuff because people don't feel like they need anything. Doesn't sound that horrible to me?

Of course, eventually inflation would be great to push greater needs again to promote technological progress, but a period of controlled deflation COULD have benefits. Mayybe I'm just living in a fantasy land on this though.

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Read "Slow Down" by Kohei Saito. You might dig it, capitalists do consider it fantasy though, but I think it's the way forward.

Edit: I also want to suggest a differing perspective on the same problem. Huber is highly critical of Saito and Degrowth, so his work is worth mentioning, another great thinker in socialist ecology.

• Huber, M. T., Climate Change as Class War: Building Socialism on a Warming Planet. Verso Books, 2022.