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Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Great thread OP. It takes a lot of courage for women folk to come out and admit wrong doing, cause yes, in most cases men are far more controlling, aggressive and power hungry than females are by way of biology. I'm not trying to self hate, that's just what i see.

And if your a woman of color? Forget about saying anything, your automatically predisposed to preconceived notions about your upbringing and being "apart of those kinds of people"

TO BE CLEAR, before anyone gets on my case, i'm not saying every rape accusation against a man by a woman is true. All i'm saying is that its 99% likely to be true, and you should probably not insult people's intelligence by presuming a very serious claim is made up just because "it could happen".
 
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Lazarre

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16
Paris
I mean, what I'm really saying is, if a thread is made about sexual assault allegations, and your first response is to question the victim's actions ("Why was she sharing a hotel room? Why was she drunk? She's in an open relationship. What was she wearing?") under the guise of "just asking questions", maybe take a look at yourself in the mirror for a while and think about why that is.
Thanks for those wise words.
I recently read a twitter thread (sadly I don't have the link anymore) which explained how to listen to a sexual abuse victim. One of the main points was "Listen, don't question, don't inquire, don't judge. Just listen, and if you can, give support". I think it's an important step for online reactions to such situations: it's not our call to stand as judges of what happened or not and how, it's our call to listen and support people.
We don't have to make investigations, but we can put a symbolic blanket on the victim's shoulder and help her to go through it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
972
Great thread OP. It takes a lot of courage for women folk to come out and admit wrong doing, cause yes, in most cases men are far more controlling, aggressive and power hungry than females are. I'm not trying to self hate, that's just what i see.
You're not wrong.

I do occasionally self-hate on this matter.

Men can be truly terrible humans. So can women, don't get me wrong. But the truly depraved acts humans inflict on one another seem to come so easily to men.
 

Not

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
US
This is an amazing thread. I'll probably be referring a lot of people to it going forward. Hope that's cool :)
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
You're not wrong.

I do occasionally self-hate on this matter.

Men can be truly terrible humans. So can women, don't get me wrong. But the truly depraved acts humans inflict on one another seem to come so easily to men.

I honestly think women ruling the world would have us in a better one. A lot of the more greedy and domination type of societal problems in our world come from men. You don't ever see female politicians getting into sex scandals(many times forcing themselves on the men they are with) while simultaneously trying to take away men's reproductive choices without their input, its always the powerful rich men who benefit off of taking advantage of lower position females.

Men by default just seem to be predisposed to be slime in many cases. Again not saying women are perfect, but they are obviously more balanced and reasonable in their decision making.
 
Oct 25, 2017
327
OP, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I like to think that I'm someone who has already considered a lot of the facets of sexual harassment and assault but this has thread has already led me to reconsider my approach and thoughts on the subject.

Back in college, I had a girlfriend who told me she decided to lose her virginity in the summer prior to a friend of hers. No one she was dating or romantically interested. She was just so afraid of losing her virginity to someone who would rape her that she decided she rather sleep with a friend first.

In my case, I've had some women try to hmm well I guess you could say they tried to force some form of sexual contact. Whether that meant they tried to force a kiss or tried to shove their hands down my pants despite me pushing their hands away or something similar. In most of these cases, they were women I was dating, hooking up with, or involved in some way, but not at the time they tried what they tried. In one case, I did have the girlfriend of an uncle try to kiss me when I was 16 maybe 17. I didn't see her ever again given they lived in a different country and broke up about a year later.

In most of the cases, I can see how people would like try to poke holes if I called the women out. I imagine they would have gone like "you were drunk with her alone in her apartment, what did you think?" Or "you were dancing with her at the party. Obviously you wanted to"

I also didn't make a big deal out of any of those times. I brushed them off. I was bigger and stronger than them, so it's not like they really could have done more if they hadn't taken me by surprise. But the bigger reason is that I didn't want to make a big deal out of it. I just dealt with it and moved on, the same way most women do, I imagine.

That's kind of what I'm taking away from it now. The reason us men didn't recognize sexual assault or harassment as something so pervasive is because 1) it's not like we were listening 2) many victims would not like to deal with the hassle of it all

These aren't the only reasons, of course, but these are two that really stand out to me.

Btw, in case anyone wasn't getting it, the point of sharing my experience isn't to say "women do it too!" but that I'm trying to use my minor experience as a springboard for understanding and listening to victims even if I'm not always good at it.

I hope I've added something worthwhile to the conversation. Much love to y'all.
 

Deleted member 3058

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,728
This is a great thread Persephone and I can only thank you for taking the time to write that all out.

In additional to your needed OP, I want to make sure that others don't miss reading the testimonial posted by Finale Fireworker (which can be found here) and the article posted by Tralfamadore64 (which can be found here).

While it doesn't work all the time, the mind-blowing thing is that saying they have a boyfriend actually works ridiculously better than just a "no" or a "No I'm not interested."

That shows most men respect other men and the thought that a girlfriend is property more than they respect a woman's actual thoughts and feelings on the matter.
I've actually never thought of this that way before reading this post.
 

gosublime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,434
I honestly think women ruling the world would have us in a better one. A lot of the more greedy and domination type of societal problems in our world come from men. You don't ever see female politicians getting into sex scandals(many times forcing themselves on the men they are with) while simultaneously trying to take away men's reproductive choices without their input, its always the powerful rich men who benefit off of taking advantage of lower position females.

Men by default just seem to be predisposed to be slime in many cases. Again not saying women are perfect, but they are obviously more balanced and reasonable in their decision making.

You should have a go at reading The Power by Naomi Alderman. Really great book that imagines a world where most women develop the power to electrocute men, from slight shocks to death. It doesn't end up with a nicer world, postulating that men are only like this as they have the power at the moment. Give women the power and it basically just flips.

Obviously, we'll probably never know for sure!
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
I think that's a faulty hypothesis since its scientifically proven than men have chemicals inside of their brains that make them inherently more predisposed to the things we commonly see.(Hormones, testosterone ect) Without that the "predatory gender" would not really be what it is. You can't just flip a switch and have things be an equal sum game. Women live with a lot of societal disadvantages just based on this to begin with
 
Oct 25, 2017
32,304
Atlanta GA
Thanks Persephone. Everything you said rings true and is sadly lost on too many people.

I spent the last few days before getting myself banned in the other forum trying to reason with people about why it was important to take the allegations seriously, even though we will never get the full picture and can only go by what was said by both parties and the history of the alleged abuser. While we can't be 100% certain things transpired the way they were told, the amount of deflections and disregard for common sense and empathy saddened, angered and disgusted me. RDreamer knows exactly what thread and group of posters I'm talking about.

There was much of the following:

-She shouldn't have been alone with him on a trip if she was seeing someone else and didn't want something to happen.
-She shouldn't have gotten drunk with him if she was seeing someone else and didn't want something to happen.
-She shouldn't have left the bathroom door open.
-She shouldn't have gotten in the shower.
-Her forgiving him and engaging in a consensual sexual relationship with him at a later time invalidated her claim of harassment/abuse.
-Her opening up after some time meant that she had moved past it and it wasn't a big deal and she was only trying to make a scene/ruin the life of someone "famous."

There was even someone claiming her account was dubious because she was only an "amateur" filmmaker after news articles said she was a professional. And of course, the reasoning from the other party that she was mentally ill and bisexual, disgusting ways to try and rebuke her claim.

So many excuses to invalidate her claim or avoid believing her story, and very little weight put on the fact that the alleged abuser had a history of sexual misconduct and truth-dodging.

I had about all I could take from that group of posters who immediately attacked anyone who tried to appeal to their sense of reason and decency. I honestly can't say I have faith that certain groups of men can ever learn to believe women when they automatically assume that the victim is just out to harm someone else or something gain something from opening up and reliving her horrible experiences. I eventually had to step away because I couldn't take anymore of it, I was completely disgusted and depressed by how bad it was.
 

NameUser

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,038
I've had this conversation with most of the women in my immediate family. Basically all of them have been harassed or assualted at some point in their lives. Sure, some bad apples lie, but I believe that most of the women who come forward are telling the truth so I always side with them.
 

Deleted member 2761

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,620
I think that's a faulty hypothesis since its scientifically proven than men have chemicals inside of their brains that make them inherently more predisposed to the things we commonly see.(Hormones, testosterone ect) Without that the "predatory gender" would not really be what it is. You can't just flip a switch and have things be an equal sum game. Women live with a lot of societal disadvantages just based on this to begin with

Benevolent sexism is still sexism. Don't put women on a pedestal.
 

Not

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
US
I like the posts pointing out how hard it is for a number of men to relate to women. Depending on how visceral these anecdotal experiences are, they can go a long way towards diminishing the range of our empathy. We tend to generalize others with ourselves in mind; we take into consideration how we might potentially be treated in a specific situation, and at times the divisions created within society based on biological gender play an enormous role in this. You can trace this phenomenon to the way we're separated into partitioned categories from our earliest memories and onward.

Naturally, this societal predisposition towards emphasizing gender--whether it's necessary or not-- has led to a dispiriting amount of men bristling at the idea of "believing women," misguidedly treating the phrase as an immutable and absolute ultimatum without room for context or nuance (such as deliberating the validity of claims while taking relevant ratios and statistics into account), even when it has never been described as such in the scenario to which they're reacting. No matter how much they learn about other people's experiences, a predominant percentage of humans must still reject their innate inclinations to insert themselves into the situation-- and when sex differences are viewed as a crucial aspect of our society, thereby affecting our childhood development, most of us are only primed to identify with the gender we relate to.

For a rational person, statistics can be a decent method of injecting critical self-analysis into one's prior beliefs and biases. For a person used to making decisions based on fear, self-preservation, or other instincts; or are otherwise psychologically unequipped to apply another person's viewpoint to their own, objective introspection may be too demanding. Thankfully, there's another method of reigning in many individuals' harmful perceptions: by changing the environment that enables those perceptions. By successfully interacting with each other in a supporting manner, and in a way that isn't influenced by prejudice based upon preexisting class, physical attributes, orientations, and characteristics, we could redirect and/or expand the pack instinct all humans share towards a wider understanding of and familiarity with one another.

I hope we can strive to create such an environment on this forum.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Scientist here. Er...what?

As a scientist, is it not true that men do have biologically based predispositions? And many of those predispositions are what we would consider negative in modern society?

Benevolent sexism is still sexism. Don't put women on a pedestal.

I don't put anyone on pedestals, i simply call it as i see it. Based on what i see, men are usually aggressors in most situations. And because of the male dominated society in which we live, this can be dismissed without a serious look at the percentages of violence against women as an actual issue as opposed to just being how things are. That ratio is just insane
 
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Azar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
147
SFCA
Thanks for making this thread. One of the most difficult aspects of adulthood, I think, especially as we inch forward as a society in the US, has been facing ugly realities that don't always personally affect us. It would be so much nicer not to know how disgustingly common sexual harassment is. It would be so much nicer not to know how deep systemic problems make life so much more dangerous for many minorities. But being aware of those facts and not flinching away from them is how you start pushing for change. I hope movements like #metoo force more men to take off the blinders and confront the realities of harrassment and assault.
 

Not

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
US
I think societal and social predispositions have a bigger effect than biological ones either way.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
I don't think men have predispositions. It's a matter of education, social environment,...

The great debate about narture vs nurture.

Look, i'm not saying that guys(and girls) cant grow up perfectly fine individuals in loving home environments, but we even see people who come from supposedly stable backrounds do horrible things just because they think they can, or whatever they make up in their brains.

I just think its too overly simplistic an explanation to say that 1 out of 6 women are sexually assaulted in a supposed first world nation, and even more are sexually harassed just because those people happen to have grown up in some bad conditions for respecting women in the most basic of basic ways.

And before you say it, yes, i know the "olden days" was not that long ago, where preset gender roles and everything else ruled the day, but inherited privilege is just one aspect of this problem
 

Necromanti

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,551
I'm also of the belief that the socialization of men is the biggest concern, and that's also the aspect that we can actionably address. It's also not solely to the benefit of women, so it would be in everyone's best interest (which is why the aims of MRAs have always been disingenuous).
 

gosublime

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,434
I think that's a faulty hypothesis since its scientifically proven than men have chemicals inside of their brains that make them inherently more predisposed to the things we commonly see.(Hormones, testosterone ect) Without that the "predatory gender" would not really be what it is. You can't just flip a switch and have things be an equal sum game. Women live with a lot of societal disadvantages just based on this to begin with

The book is set way in the future - it's unspecified but it's set up so a man is writing it to a female publisher trying to create a history of what happened when this change occurred in our society. I'm not a scientist but is it possible that over time the women's chemistry would alter to match her new found power? Interestingly, the book has a section that mirrors your original comment, saying a world ran by men would be more caring and comforting.

I think I'm derailing the thread a bit here - if you want, feel free to PM me.
 

Deleted member 2761

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,620
As a scientist, is it not true that men do have biologically based predispositions?

Yeah, I edited out the scientist part since I decided it was better discuss this with you without the appeal to authority, but since you caught it anyway....

Sure, I'll grant you that men and women in general have biological differences, and I'll even grant you that they may influence behavior.

On the other hand, there is a lot of hand-waving in your assumption that deliberately chooses to ignore societal effects, much like James DaMore's memo. If you recall, he also similarly invoked "biological differences", but in his case, it was to justify why we shouldn't go out of our way to bring women in to tech, whereas your case was to justify why women are predisposed to be better people.
 

Not

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
US
Look, i'm not saying that guys(and girls) cant grow up perfectly fine individuals in loving home enviorments, but we even see people who come from supposedly stable backrounds do horrible things just because they think they can, or whatever they make up in their brains.
This is true. Is that the point you're trying to make? That biology does influence our decision making on some level? As complex as our brains and other biological workings are, this is more than likely a certainty.

Are you seeking validation in believing that actuality, or are you attempting to prove somehow that one plays a more important role than the other? Because at this point there is and possibly can be no objective consensus on the topic due to our limitations in collecting information. We can only speculate.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
This is true. Is that the point you're trying to make? That biology does influence our decision making on some level? As complex as our brains and other biological workings are, this is more than likely a certainty.

Are you seeking validation in believing that actuality, or are you attempting to prove somehow that one plays a more important role than the other? Because at this point there is and possibly can be no objective consensus on the topic due to our limitations in collecting information. We can only speculate.

I'm saying that male biology plays a factor in how they see the world, and especially how they treat the female gender. I'm not arguing that societal or biological are more important than the other, just that biological structures definitely plays a factor, and is a big part of the issue.

Yeah, I edited out the scientist part since I decided it was better discuss this with you without the appeal to authority, but since you caught it anyway....

Sure, I'll grant you that men and women in general have biological differences, and I'll even grant you that they may influence behavior.

On the other hand, there is a lot of hand-waving in your assumption that deliberately chooses to ignore societal effects, much like James DaMore's memo. If you recall, he also similarly invoked "biological differences", but in his case, it was to justify why we shouldn't go out of our way to bring women in to tech, whereas your case was to justify why women are predisposed to be better people.

Good post. But as i said above, i'm not actually arguing against societal impacts either, just that biological impacts are also very important to take into consideration, either in regards to how men view the world and make general decisions, but also how they treat females. And it just so happens that most times its to the detriment of the female gender
 

Not

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
US
Good post. But as i said above, i'm not actually arguing against societal impacts either, just that biological impacts are also very important to take into consideration, either in regards to how men view the world and make general decisions, but also how they treat females. And it just so happens that most times its to the detriment of the female gender
You only desire confirmation that biological factors are "important?"

Because acknowledging said factors' importance and influence on human behavior isn't a concession that we have to cater to them.

EDIT: Sorry, Inuhanyou , I edited the last sentence in.
 
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Sawneeks

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,845
Very well done OP, thank you.

I mean, what I'm really saying is, if a thread is made about sexual assault allegations, and your first response is to question the victim's actions ("Why was she sharing a hotel room? Why was she drunk? She's in an open relationship. What was she wearing?") under the guise of "just asking questions", maybe take a look at yourself in the mirror for a while and think about why that is.
Goodness, all of these infuriate me but I hear this one so much I'm about ready to tear my hair out.

I was raised in a very conservative religion that places a dress-code on women because 'Men can't control themselves'. I have not believed in this religion for many years but there were many, many times growing up where I heard Church Leaders, Adults, and even other girls talk down to someone who was harassed or assaulted because 'she was clearly asking for it by how she dressed'. So much of it was placed on the woman in question that nobody paid attention to the man who did it and it almost always ended in the mentality that it was the victim's fault as they should have been 'prepared' or they 'should have seen it coming'.

I do think the #MeToo campaign raised awareness of just how frequently this can happen to those who don't realize it but I think until the ideas in society that subtly reinforce the blaming/doubting of the victim change we will not be able to truly fix this issue.
 

Deleted member 2761

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
1,620
Good post. But as i said above, i'm not actually arguing against societal impacts either, just that biological impacts are also very important to take into consideration, either in regards to how men view the world and make general decisions, but also how they treat females. And it just so happens that most times its to the detriment of the female gender

Well, let's put it this way: do you think this nebulous effect of physiology on male aggression is sufficient to inform policy?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,293
I'm confused about the idea that society has somehow gotten worse and that its absurd that we "still have to talk about this in 2017". Sexual assault by men against women is so deeply ingrained into global culture that we are only now reaching a point where a significant amount of men are finally starting to listen to and believe women, largely due to debates/threads like this. Thank you, OP.

I would also like to once more state that most sexual assault is committed by men like you and me, not by isolated unknown crazy strangers. I'll even wager that most of us often don't even realize we're doing it or try to explain it away with some dumb shit (case in point a certain admin) after the fact. What we should do instead is listen to women's claims and learn that what many of us might think it's consensual and ok in fact often isn't. I think too much of the discussion turns to either focusing on victims rather than how to educate perpetrators pre-emptively or stating that the perpetrator is someunique type of crazy when statistically - nah - we should all take these claims and reflect on our own past and current behavior as men.
 
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Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Well, let's put it this way: do you think this nebulous effect of physiology on male aggression is sufficient to inform policy?

"Inform policy", what do you mean?

*EDIT*

I also just realized that my views on biology could also be misconstrued as "taking the blame" off of men in regards to their own actions. Let me assure anyone that that is not my intent whatsoever in the posts i've been making
 

Not

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
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I was raised in a very conservative religion that places a dress-code on women because 'Men can't control themselves'. I have not believed in this religion for many years but there were many, many times growing up where I heard Church Leaders, Adults, and even other girls talk down to someone who was harassed or assaulted because 'she was clearly asking for it by how she dressed'.
I relate, having grown up in a similar environment. It's a real bummer that dominant Western religions have been indirectly set up in a way that minimizes male responsibility for their vices.
 

psychowave

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,655
Even if men do really have a predisposition to be violent (and that is EXTREMELY arguable), they should be able to fight it. If I took a dump right on the street and tried to justify it by saying that I really needed to take a shit right at that moment and I can't be expected to control my urges as an animal, no one would listen to me. Instincts or hormones or whatever aren't an excuse.
 

Stop It

Bad Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,352
The one massive takeaway has to be this.

"Imagine being a woman"

Too many people defend their own kind (I'm a straight guy) rather than realising that when it comes to this, and so many emotive subjects that being right doesn't mean you're doing right.

When you see a woman explain how they feel about the subject, saying "well most men are great, what's the problem" isn't the answer. Show some empathy, realise the fears are grounded and be part of the solution by understanding.

That's not even considering the issue at hand here. When anyone handwaves, or says "but men" you not only miss the point but destroy any chance of making things better. If you're scared of false accusations, tell those who actually do treat women as objects to be used to stop. Without the problem to begin with, there will be no false accusations to deal with. More importantly there will be far less actual accusations, actual people hurt because of others treating them like dirt and wondering why it has a fallout.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey

I think that men under certain circumstances can sure. But on the other hand, the reason women's rights are in such peril is specifically because there are men who don't know or care a lick about those rights making the laws. Not to say there are not women who go right along with these plans, but i don't think those particular women are even in their "right minds" to count as making informed decisions for the good of females.
 
Oct 26, 2017
952
Great OP and really articulate and I appreciate to read these perspectives. They arent new to me as I am very close to my mother and sister. It is scary to think about how controlled womens lives are. That there is always a risk of something bad happening. It is also disappointing when you've got fellow sisters being on the side of mysogynist. I loathe cat calling and the entitlement men or others have over womens bodies.

I couldn't stand either these posters who lacked empathy and women had to defend themselves all the time for speaking about their experience of life. I hope this will be a more open and constructive place. Hope some can feel empowered at Era. I know I am lucky to be born male, and never take for granted the privileges I have.

Looking forward to discussing and reading everyones thoughts.
 

Deleted member 2761

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I think that men under certain circumstances can sure. But on the other hand, the reason women's rights are in such peril is specifically because there are men who don't know or care a lick about those rights making the laws. Not to say there are not women who go right along with these plans, but i don't think those particular women are even in their "right minds" to count as making informed decisions for the good of females.

My bad, I wasn't being clear. Allow me to rephrase the question.

Why is it important that biological impacts are taken into consideration if we don't know their extent? What can we do with this vague piece of information?
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
My bad, I wasn't being clear. Allow me to rephrase the question.

Why is it important that biological impacts are taken into consideration if we don't know their extent? What can we do with this vague piece of information?

We can simply understand that it can come from any man, and its not really a thing to justify that it would never happen because of such and such environmental circumstance. So women must always by default be more vigilant and on guard, even with people they are close to. Of course with these statistics its not as if females need anyone to reinforce that for them

I also recognize that its a slippery slope, the discussion that i'm arguing in, and also a somewhat contradictory, as i always am fighting against alt right "pseudosciencers" who point to women and minority "genetic inferiority" for explanation to their positions in society(ala the bell curve). But regarding male to female differences, i still feel like its important to highlight the negatives on the male side just because its so overly prevalent in our society that it can't all be explained away with just environmental factors
 
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Oct 25, 2017
972
Sorry for dropping out a bit ago. My mother wanted me to set out some Thanksgivings decorations lol.

I realize it's a form of benevolent sexism. Women aren't any "better" than any other person on the planet. I admit my stance is more based on this patriarchal society we live in. Men have been given free reign to do what they will, through policy or societal structure for so long, and I don't like what they've done with the power.

Maybe it'd be just as bad with women in charge. I'd sure as hell like to a see a world with women in power for the next five hundred years at least even still. I have little doubt that certain disturbing parts of society would disappear completely, and maybe other atrocities crop up.
 

Deleted member 2761

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We can simply understand that it can come from any man, and its not really a thing to justify that it would never happen because of such and such environmental circumstance. So women must always by default be more vigilant and on guard, even with people they are close to. Of course with these statistics its not as if females need anyone to reinforce that for them

I also recognize that its a slippery slope, the discussion that i'm arguing in, and also a somewhat contradictory, as i always am fighting against alt right "pseudosciencers" who point to women and minority "genetic inferiority" for explanation to their positions in society(ala the bell curve). But regarding male to female differences, i still feel like its important to highlight

You're at least cognizant of it, so I think that this discussion was productive. I'm not being critical to be mean, and I think only good can come from having a strong and logical basis for our convictions.
 

JABEE

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,857

I had a 3 page email I kept documenting the harassment I was getting from one guy. I had dates, witnesses, and other victims to back me up. The last straw was when he took a photo of me off the company website from the Christmas party, 'shopped my husband out of it, and put it as his desktop wallpaper. My managers and HR STILL would not do anything, and went us far as to humiliate me by calling an all-hands and claiming myself and other women were "on a witch hunt". After everyone (most of whom had no clue until then what was going on) had left, I tore into the HR woman. I no longer cared if they fired me. Someone heard me yelling at her and, "Get ready to write me a huge check!" made it to upper management. The next day, the serial harasser, my immediate managers, and the HR woman were gone. I worked there for another 7 years and it was great.
And, that's my story of how I beat the system.

P.S. HR is not your friend. They exist to protect the company.
The fact that it took threats of lawsuits to scare a company into respecting claims of harassment shows a huge systemic issue impacting how companies value the humanity of their employees.

The culture of the company and the business world dictated how that HR manager reacted to your complaints. The idea that ethics do not matter or complaints can be papered over if they are inconvenient is a sad reality of our world.

Everyone wants to limit inefficiencies and make things easier, but sometimes the tough issues are difficult and painful to confront.

I'm glad women are speaking out about their experiences, because the world has weird issues they are incapable of confronting without getting defensive.

I know I have to confront my own insecurities and biases. We all do when trying to think about walking in someone's shoes.

I don't know how to make everyone understand or empathize, but campaigns like Me Too with more men and women speaking out will help the public realize how "normal" we have allowed sexual harassment to become in our society.
 

megabyte

Member
Oct 25, 2017
628
Great thread. I think raising awareness of statistics like that would be helpful for a number of conversations related to sexual harassment/assault. Too many times I've had men call me silly for my reluctance to travel/go out alone. It's because of stats like that.
 

patientzero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,729
This is a great thread and very much needed for a variety of reasons. I have to say I'm heartened at the general level of discourse here, as even when things could potentially go off-the-rails people are careful to couch their arguments and rebuttals in such a way that invites conversation rather than fighting.

Beyond that, I don't think I'm going to be particarly novel in my commentary or observations. The statistics are undoubtedly damning, the cultural factors daunting, and the usual conversations depressing.

That in mind, a few observations.

First, those of us who thankfully cannot count ourselves among the victims must do a better job of engaging with and understanding perspectives other than our own. I was raised by and largely befriended women, so I consider myself "lucky", for lack of a better term, in understanding the issues surrounding sexual harassment/assault/rape in a way many men I grew up with did not.

That said, that does not in any way give me or anyone like me a pass to ever act as if we truly understand those circumstances. The least we can do is listen and try to understand and acknowledge the sheer volume of pain visited upon so many. And that statement is purposely vague as it goes for any interaction between the cultural majority trying to sympathize with marginalized populations.

I'm also glad to see some other men in here wrestle with, admit to, and vow to better their previous actions. I am not innocent in this regard. While I have largely tried to avoid being a creep, let alone worse, I often flash back to an instance where I kissed a woman without any consent or foreknowledge. While that situation resolved itself amicably I still feel weird about it, especially given my beliefs and political stances and self-identified progressiveness.

On a final note, I was disappointed earlier this year in some fellow academics. I attended a graduate course in my literary and textual studies program (I.e. English) entitled "Raging Women: Then and Now". This was a course devoted to analyzing and discussing feminist movements and concepts, from "monstrous motherhood" as seen in The Babadook to 90s music and female influences therein ala Sleater-Kinney. It was a phenomenal course, with an inclusive and varied approach.

And out of 20 enrolled students I was the only goddamned man in there. Men need to be willing to step out of perceived comfort zones and interact with these topics. I don't know how we accomplish that in any assured manner outside of these conversations that, god willing, alter the culture ever so slightly and consistently.
 

Undivided

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
38
User was banned for this post.
I want to clarify that, before anyone reads this post, I'm not attacking anyone or saying women have it easy in this country. They're certainly in a shittier place than men, but there's a few thing with this OP that need to be cleared up. In fact, before you read ANYTHING in this post, you should watch this video to see where I'm coming from.

Sexual harassment and assault is a very serious crime, and, while it can be perpetrated by anyone, to anyone, there's no doubt that, due to a multitude of social and cultural factors, sexual assault and harassment is largely perpetrated by men against women. According to RAINN, women account for 90% of adult rape victims and 82% of juvenile rape victims. 1 in 6 American women will experience attempted or completed rape at some point in her life.
The misconception behind this is pretty simple, and is actually the one I have an issue with personally. Yes, currently women account for a significant portion of rape victims. However, the reason for this is bullshit. A Majority of states actually refuse to recognize the idea that women can rape men. These states only specify rape as being "forcible penetration using a sexual organ," which if you know about the human body, isn't really possible for women. Due to this, and the fact that there's absolutely no kind of support group or out reach involving male rape victims, means male rape victims are virtually unreported. You know what happened to my male friend that was drugged and raped? He called a rape hotline because he felt he needed help. They gave him the address for a local support group. He arrived to find a support group......For men that had abused their partners and wanted to stop.

For the vast majority of women, this knowledge is something that hangs over us constantly. I'm not trying to be overdramatic here. 1 in 6 American women.
This statistic gets thrown around a lot, and people tend to not know where it comes from. I'll the video, but I'll go ahead and define the notes. This statistic is misquoted quite often as meaning multiple things from "raped," "sexually assaulted," and "sexual harassment." The statistic itself comes from a phone survey of cold-calling women and asking them questions such as, "Have you ever had sex while inuder the influence of alcohol?" If you answered "yes," they you were categorized as, "having been raped," regardless of any sort of context for that answer. This is utterly ridiculous, because anyone over the age of 21 who has had sex, has probably had sex while inebriated. I'm not going to go terribly into detail here because I have a video that can do that for me, and I'm pretty shit at articulating my points.


And I can't speak for others here, but living with the threat of harassment and assault hanging over my head constantly, there is nothing more disappointing and infuriating than coming online, to a supposedly progressive forum, and finding that threads about sexual assault are almost universally overrun with discussions of the danger of false rape accusations, how women should stay silent, how they can't be believed. I've seen some posters claim that they will never believe a white woman's claim of sexual harassment/assault because of cases like Emmet Till.
Do you know why these kind of discussions get overrun with worries about false rape accusations? Because most most of us aren't rapists. The current number of incarcerated criminals in the united states is 0.7% of the population. Even if we multiply that number be five times, and assume everyone of them is male, you're talking about less than 10% of the male population. So assuming every criminal is a male rapist we're looking at only 10% of the male population. With that absolutely bullshit statistic in mind, guess what most males are worried about? We aren't worried about how to not rape, because we aren't pieces of shit, we're worried about accidentally doing the wrong thing and getting accused of a heinous deed. Which, if you keep up with the news, is about equivalent to a summary execution.

In some ways, I get it. The majority demographic of this forum skews male, and while, yes, men do face sexual violence, it is not nearly to the same degree as women. RAINN states 1 in 33 men will suffer rape or attempted rape in their lifetimes, as opposed to 1 in 6 women. A man walks down an empty street at night, he's probably more concerned about getting mugged than raped. And I think that, because for most men this is not a constant threat hanging over them, they are unable to empathise with women on this point. Because while yes, false rape accusations do happen, and yes, they are terrible, to respond with skepticism to every allegation is disingenuous at best. Imagine reading threads full of men talking about how they won't be alone in a room with a female coworker, because "one false accusation is all it takes", even though millions of women who have suffered sexual violence have never seen and will never see justice.
Here we have that aforementioned statistic come up. Are women raped more than men? I'm absolutely god damn sure of it. But what I want to ask is: Is women being raped an endemic, or does it stem from certain people being massive sacks of shit? If a man and a woman both get mugged in a dark alleyway, the woman is clearly more likely to get sexually assaulted. But that isn't indicative of the male population, that's indicative of the pieces of shit waiting in a dark alley way for a victim. It's like the push for colleges to hold "anti-rape seminars." The people you're reaching with that kind of shit are maybe 1 out of every 100. Those rape cases where the man was just completely unaware that he was pushing a boundary are pretty freaking rare. Most men are intelligent enough to recognize the word "no," and those that don't stop are usually making a conscious decision.

Imagine being a woman--perhaps one who has suffered sexual harassment or assault--coming into these threads, and seeing all these posts about false rape accusations and lying women. It tells me, "I don't believe women." It tells me, "I believe all women are spiteful enough to falsely accuse a man of rape over the smallest insult." It tells me, "I have no empathy for women." It hurts, it does, and it's part of what drove so many women away from GAF, near the end.
If you are worried about this happening, you are in the wrong website. This is not a website for survivors of sexual assault. This is a video game forum. By posting stuff like that, you are opening yourself up to the opinion of anyone interested in playing a video game. These are not the people that feel care about your feelings, these are people that care about videogames. If you need a place to talk about whatever terrible experiences you have with no critique, you need to alt+f4 right the fuck out of here and find a legitimate support group instead of this place. Because while I'm never going to make any heinous accusations that you "deserved it" or some terrible shit like that, I'm also not a female who has been a victim of sexual assault, and me and 90% of this forum aren't going to have being a support group in mind when you talk about it. We are not your online therapist, we're a bunch of assholes that migrated from [website redacted]. At this point, I'm going to end this point on the final paragraph from your post, because I feel it's important that you get the last word in, not me, because this is an important issue, despite whatever I might say.

So all I'm asking, really, is when you see a thread about sexual assault allegations, before posting, just stop and think. Think about the 1 in 6 American women, and millions more across the world, who have experienced or will experience sexual violence at some point in our lives. Think about the constant fear women experience, knowing that there's a huge chance of us being raped, or harassed, or assaulted, and a tiny chance of us ever seeing justice. Think about whether we would really be willing, en masse, to subject ourselves to abuse, and threats, and scrutiny, all for the sake of... what? A small chance of money? Attention? It's not worth it, I promise you that. Our lives are hard enough already.

Thanks for reading.

(RAINN statistics: https://www.rainn.org/statistics)
 

Not

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,596
US
Undivided, you've spent a great deal of time and effort attempting to refute the OP's entire perspective. However, the first and last paragraphs in your post both interest and bemuse me, and make me think that you believe couching a toxic opinion between disclaimers somehow makes it less toxic.

Would you care to make a further attempt at refuting the rest of the posts in this thread, or at least a few? Posts from men as well? The further statistics offered? You seem capable of doing so, and since you've already come this far, would you be willing to continue down that path?