I just have to say I appreciate you making this thread, Persephone
And I appreciate kliklik coming through with the citations.
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On sexual harassment threads: a woman's perspective
- Thread starter Persephone
- Start date
This too. Don't make it about yourself. Listen to what women you know have gone through.
Nice thread, it definitely should be discussed! While i agree that we should take every accusation very seriously, and believe it at first while investigating, i will still wait for information before jumping to conclusion, you have to be impartial (without being a dick of course)
Regardless of the person, regardless of the case, doing that is in no way disingenuous, at least to me! But i'm not a woman so i sure can't understand what you're going through all day! But i understrand the frustration when you see a bunch of men immediatly thinking that you must be lying, that's awful and they're mostly assholes!
as for the statistics, it's hard to know for the men because a freaking lot will never report it because our society shame them for that, it's definitely higher than the officials number! But regardless, you're right, i never wonder if i'm gonna be sexually harassed or raped because it's simply not a risk for us!
Regardless of the person, regardless of the case, doing that is in no way disingenuous, at least to me! But i'm not a woman so i sure can't understand what you're going through all day! But i understrand the frustration when you see a bunch of men immediatly thinking that you must be lying, that's awful and they're mostly assholes!
as for the statistics, it's hard to know for the men because a freaking lot will never report it because our society shame them for that, it's definitely higher than the officials number! But regardless, you're right, i never wonder if i'm gonna be sexually harassed or raped because it's simply not a risk for us!
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Yes please. Keep things transparent. Absolutely essential.
Thank you for sharing people.
Great post kliklik !
I'm glad people are speaking out in general. I'm a guy, but I imagine it must be difficult living in a society where there exist males who perceive themselves to be superior to females for some reason and would abuse them inhumanely. That other thread where a chinese male streamer beat his girlfriend really boils my blood.
One of the things the last week has taught me is that women don't have any natural allies in this space. That's often not out of any actual malice on the part of men, but because asPersephonepointed out they often simply don't understand the reality of moving through the world as a woman, the constant, looming fear that a sideways glance or the sound of footsteps behind you on the street at night mean rape or violence or murder. This often results in otherwise well-meaning people dismissing bad behaviour as the actions of a lone wolf rather than actively challenging it, which over time can make a given space unwelcoming for women. I spoke to someone working in games recently who had never heard of Gamergate. This may have been a case of wilful ignorance, it may have simply been someone a bit out of touch, but I was taken aback. Women in this industry don't have the luxury of ignoring harassment campaigns, because emotional or physical violence against one person for "speaking out of line" constitutes a threat to us all.
That said, it's been so incredible to see the growth of this forum and the influx of people not willing to stand for this shit any more. I simply ask all men here to remain vigilant and actively call out unacceptable comments and behaviour if and when you see them.
That said, it's been so incredible to see the growth of this forum and the influx of people not willing to stand for this shit any more. I simply ask all men here to remain vigilant and actively call out unacceptable comments and behaviour if and when you see them.
Attempting to hijack a thread about sexual assault.
May I ask a question that could be perceived as insensitive? For the record, NOT my intent to come off as that!
A while ago in high school...well, freshmen year to be exact, I met a new friend and we just sort of chilled. Nothing fancy. Then he talks about a girl he likes - we'll call her Cindy here. I knew Cindy since middle school, not the....coolest cat. Had the temper of a honey badger. But, he liked her! So I told him to go for it. Then one day, he writes up a note, puts in a fancy envelope and asks me to deliver it for her. I told him that sort of thing is best done by him as a gesture, but I understood what it's like to be awkward and shy around girls. Sometimes it's good to have a wingman! So I helped him out. Gave her the note, chatter with her a bit, and left. I never read the note, I never asked him or her about it. I figured that just went without saying.
Two hours later, I get yanked out of my classroom by the school resource officer. Cindy, two cops, her parents, and the principal who DESPISED me were both glaring at me. Turns out my "friend" is a stalker and a pervert. Turns out the letter was filled the most vile of shit that only a high schooler could come up with. And it turns out he told everyone else that I was in on the whole thing when he got his rancid ass expelled. Of course, I was next in line, but this principal had a bit of a rap sheet and my parents threatened to lawyer up, so he "got me off" with just 10 days of suspension.
That ain't the worst part of it. Never mind the fact that I didn't do shit and my reputation was utterly destroyed - I was pretty much hated by everyone. But every day, some new random person would accuse me of something similar. More than half the time, I'd never even met them! Never seen their faces. But it was enough that they knew who I was, and they had more than enough to accuse me of false shit and people would buy it.
Now, I was lucky in the grand scheme of things. It was high school, and this was yet another reason for my parents to move out that crappy city. I finished my last two years in a relatively awesome place with awesome people and no problems - though I definitely set myself up with some strict new rules regardless.
But....how do you go about defending yourself in a far more real, public situation? What if you really ARE innocent, but the public just doesn't give two fucks because they'd rather be more entertained by the prospects of a show being put on? What if the women accusing you of sexual harassment are actually genuinely full of shit and have ulterior motives? How do you defend against that? How do you defend against someone else without looking like a pervert defender yourself?
It's EXCELLENT that more women are becoming further empowered and encouraged to stand up to their oppressors. That needed to happen a long time ago. But has it occurred to anyone that this might also be a PERFECT opportunity for, well, opportunists? I recall the Salem Witch trials where you can pretty much instantly condemn someone to a guaranteed death just because you didn't like them. And history has a way of repeating itself. #MeToo is trending. But the longer it trends, the less it'll be used for what it's MEANT to be used for.
Has this every occurred to any of you? And how do you go about combating it? How do you protect the actual victims while weeding out the bullshitters and bandwagoners?
A while ago in high school...well, freshmen year to be exact, I met a new friend and we just sort of chilled. Nothing fancy. Then he talks about a girl he likes - we'll call her Cindy here. I knew Cindy since middle school, not the....coolest cat. Had the temper of a honey badger. But, he liked her! So I told him to go for it. Then one day, he writes up a note, puts in a fancy envelope and asks me to deliver it for her. I told him that sort of thing is best done by him as a gesture, but I understood what it's like to be awkward and shy around girls. Sometimes it's good to have a wingman! So I helped him out. Gave her the note, chatter with her a bit, and left. I never read the note, I never asked him or her about it. I figured that just went without saying.
Two hours later, I get yanked out of my classroom by the school resource officer. Cindy, two cops, her parents, and the principal who DESPISED me were both glaring at me. Turns out my "friend" is a stalker and a pervert. Turns out the letter was filled the most vile of shit that only a high schooler could come up with. And it turns out he told everyone else that I was in on the whole thing when he got his rancid ass expelled. Of course, I was next in line, but this principal had a bit of a rap sheet and my parents threatened to lawyer up, so he "got me off" with just 10 days of suspension.
That ain't the worst part of it. Never mind the fact that I didn't do shit and my reputation was utterly destroyed - I was pretty much hated by everyone. But every day, some new random person would accuse me of something similar. More than half the time, I'd never even met them! Never seen their faces. But it was enough that they knew who I was, and they had more than enough to accuse me of false shit and people would buy it.
Now, I was lucky in the grand scheme of things. It was high school, and this was yet another reason for my parents to move out that crappy city. I finished my last two years in a relatively awesome place with awesome people and no problems - though I definitely set myself up with some strict new rules regardless.
But....how do you go about defending yourself in a far more real, public situation? What if you really ARE innocent, but the public just doesn't give two fucks because they'd rather be more entertained by the prospects of a show being put on? What if the women accusing you of sexual harassment are actually genuinely full of shit and have ulterior motives? How do you defend against that? How do you defend against someone else without looking like a pervert defender yourself?
It's EXCELLENT that more women are becoming further empowered and encouraged to stand up to their oppressors. That needed to happen a long time ago. But has it occurred to anyone that this might also be a PERFECT opportunity for, well, opportunists? I recall the Salem Witch trials where you can pretty much instantly condemn someone to a guaranteed death just because you didn't like them. And history has a way of repeating itself. #MeToo is trending. But the longer it trends, the less it'll be used for what it's MEANT to be used for.
Has this every occurred to any of you? And how do you go about combating it? How do you protect the actual victims while weeding out the bullshitters and bandwagoners?
I think it is something that occurs to plenty of people and it is terrible as an innocent person to be vilified. Although your anekdote has little to do with your concern, there was no opportunist and these type of things can also happen with plenty of other topics. I think the last US election has been a prime example of opportunists of spreading false stories that cause people to be vilified that are innocent or with little fault. That has nothing to do with our responses against sexual harassment, the term witch hunt is not from current times.
Sure, with a larger public response it is easier for some people to abuse that, but otherwise you are going to get opportunists that take advantage of not having a response. There is no winning there.
That said there are plenty of problems with people making judgments like that. Unlike courts they are not going to carefully consider both sides of a story, when somebody ends up innocent they might not judge them so and it is very difficult to counter misinformation because people are only drawn to the juiciest bits.
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Please don't hijack this thread to be about how to respond to false rape accusations. The OP very clearly said it's infuriating to see that and I agree. Not to mention your story is not even relevant to this topic, it's just something really unfortunate that happened to you.
Hi,
I can tell this post was well intentioned, but perhaps this thread isn't the right place for it. This is about victims' experiences, and there's no need to try to steal the spotlight. Maybe this would be a good candidate for its own separate thread. Thank you.
Thank you, Persephone , for this write-up. It is very illuminating. Hell, the 1/6 statistic is life-changing to hear, to me.
kliklik thank you also, that's an amazing takedown.
kliklik thank you also, that's an amazing takedown.
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Recently become good/close friends with two women who have helped me out tremendously with my mental health + depression...and I don't think I was ever the type to say "oh, women are doing it for attention" - the idea is horrible - but when we talked about our pasts and things that had happened...
It's not so much that it changed my mind but crystallized things. I will endeavour to always be there for them, or anyone who needs help, because the idea that they would feel intimidated or powerless to the point if having to bottle it up and be silent makes me feel sick to my stomach.
The Harvey Weinstein stuff in general is fucked up and people's attitudes...sometimes I think they don't realize the power or attitude can have on those who feel powerless.
Thank you for making the thread Persephone As I think it is a timely reminder. And even though I'm from the UK that 1/6 statistic is horrible.
It's not so much that it changed my mind but crystallized things. I will endeavour to always be there for them, or anyone who needs help, because the idea that they would feel intimidated or powerless to the point if having to bottle it up and be silent makes me feel sick to my stomach.
The Harvey Weinstein stuff in general is fucked up and people's attitudes...sometimes I think they don't realize the power or attitude can have on those who feel powerless.
Thank you for making the thread Persephone As I think it is a timely reminder. And even though I'm from the UK that 1/6 statistic is horrible.
Bro, your story has nothing to do with what you're getting at towards the tail end of your post or the topic of this thread? I'm sorry to hear what happened to you but that's a poor excuse to bring up something that the OP has largely already covered.
Thank you for the great op, Persephone. This has been on my mind for a long time and you articulated many of my concerns much more clearly than I could hope to. I do hope that the underlying reason this site was created will encourage and reinforce a positive dialog between those who do not face the spectre of victimization every day and those that do and have.
Not that the rest of your post isn't great, but this concluding statement is going to be my standard reply to people who are always bringing up false rape accusations. It distills the stats down to a soundbyte that laymen can ingest easily and it hits hard.
I used to think 1 out of 6 sounded like a high number, but over the years as I've gotten to know more people better I really believe it's probably closer to 1 out of 3 women to have had attempts on them or actually raped. So many of the cases seem about control (usually someone losing their control over someone and then resorting to control through violence), manipulation, power, etc.
It is sad that many times, women will not denounce sexual assault or sexual harassment because they feel the system won't believe us, or that the blame will be shifted to be placed on them.
How many times does the system re victimize you? When you denounce in the police, and if they manage to find the person responsible, many more interviews and having to relive that moment time and time again. At least, that's the legal system here and it's one of the elements (among many) that causes women not be willing to speak out.
How many times does the system re victimize you? When you denounce in the police, and if they manage to find the person responsible, many more interviews and having to relive that moment time and time again. At least, that's the legal system here and it's one of the elements (among many) that causes women not be willing to speak out.
I think this is another important takeaway, though it was perhaps outside of the scope of the original OP. Listening to and believing women who speak out about their experiences with sexual harassment, abuse, assault, and rape is certainly the first step in treating the problem. Empathizing with women and understanding that they are constantly on notice for male aggression in situations you wouldn't think twice about, like drinking with friends, is another great step.
But men must also think about the behaviors they have engaged in in the past, the people they may have unwittingly made uncomfortable or violated in some way, the manner in which they talk about women especially amongst their male friends. Discourse like "boys will be boys" or "you were a sex-crazed teen, you couldn't control yourself/it's no surprise" allow this culture to perpetuate. It excuses minor acts and lays the groundwork for larger ones.
What I'm trying to say is that, after listening to and believing women, use your power and privilege as a man to shut down the toxic notions of masculinity that allow these behaviors to continue. The things men say to each other when they think women aren't listening or present shock me sometimes. They make me afraid of guys that I had previously trusted. Please call out these sorts of comments when you hear them, even if it's your best friend who, from your perspective, wouldn't hurt a fly.
I am not a woman, but I can't imagine what it's like to be in a male dominated society when you're a victim of sexual harassment and assault. I was molested three separate times by people I greatly trusted when I was young, and one of the things that kept me going was knowing I was lucky enough to be a white man in a white man dominated society. I knew that as I got older, I would have a lot more power to prevent stuff like that from happening to me.
If I was a woman, I'd have no idea how to react. It must fucking suck.
If I was a woman, I'd have no idea how to react. It must fucking suck.
Thankyou Persephone, thankyou mods for the transparent and clear moderation and thankyou kliklik for the fantastic post.
For myself I found the OP (and kliklik's post) educational and sobering and like others I welcome its place in the forum. We can always be more educated about the lives of others and we can always hear more stories (dreadful though they may be) to help highlight such struggles and understand.
For myself I found the OP (and kliklik's post) educational and sobering and like others I welcome its place in the forum. We can always be more educated about the lives of others and we can always hear more stories (dreadful though they may be) to help highlight such struggles and understand.
There's a youtube showing this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5n0MOAfelSI
It's terrible, and a big reason to shy away from heavy pvp oriented games.
I think it's good policy to believe the victim.
It's an uphill battle from speaking out after an assault to getting any justice, and questioning someone's honesty so quickly makes it even more challenging for them to seek a conviction.
It also dissuades other victims from ever speaking out.
It's an uphill battle from speaking out after an assault to getting any justice, and questioning someone's honesty so quickly makes it even more challenging for them to seek a conviction.
It also dissuades other victims from ever speaking out.
I honestly don't know about this. Women can be just as disgusting as men.
In my town an attention-seeking white woman claimed to raped by a black man and some poor random man ended up lynched. She admitted to her crime later after the guilt picked away at her but the damage had already been done.
I think victims should be believed so that they're supported but it may be crossing the line to attack,punish and ostracize people based on claims.
EDIT: Just to clarify, people with multiple accusers probably should be ostracized.
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Good thread. Sexual harassment towards women is probably the single most form of harassment that is glossed over as "part of our culture". Also, sadly, parading around false feminism to appear as an ally to sneak into women's good graces is becoming a thing.
I think the best way to move forward is to make women comfortable with outing harassers, and men helping them out. The me too movement was a big step forward I think. People should feel the full consequences of being a harasser or abuser. Men and women alike tbh.
I think the best way to move forward is to make women comfortable with outing harassers, and men helping them out. The me too movement was a big step forward I think. People should feel the full consequences of being a harasser or abuser. Men and women alike tbh.
I have to disagree. It's refreshing, and important, for men who have committed sexual harassment to be accountable, and I think this post, as well as Finale Fireworker's post earlier, show how that can be done. The onus isn't just on us women to protect ourselves, but on men to gain enough self-awareness, otherwise there will never be progress.
It's truely a sad thing that - in this day and age - women still can't feel safe. Those statistics scare the crap out of me.
Oftentimes, when I'm out at night or going to work early in the morning, and I encounter a lone female walking alone in the dark, I make an effort to cross the street or walk around her in a wide arc, simply because I don't want to make her feel uncomfortable by virtue of me being a guy. I know it's dumb - I mean, most women are perfectly capable of taking care and fending for themselves. But I can't help it - I feel ashamed for the rancid predators walking free on the face of this earth.
Oftentimes, when I'm out at night or going to work early in the morning, and I encounter a lone female walking alone in the dark, I make an effort to cross the street or walk around her in a wide arc, simply because I don't want to make her feel uncomfortable by virtue of me being a guy. I know it's dumb - I mean, most women are perfectly capable of taking care and fending for themselves. But I can't help it - I feel ashamed for the rancid predators walking free on the face of this earth.
Take my post and make it gender-neutral, and it still applies. It's difficult to call out abuse against those who have power over us, regardless of gender. So difficult in fact, that almost no one is going to do it if it didn't happen.
Off-topic and against the rules, do not do this.
The way I see it, EL lost 80-90% of his forum not because he was a sexist bigot, but due to the years of animosity pinned up from unreasonable bannings. I can count a few minor celebrities who get away with inappropriate behaviors.
So it's possible this forum can fail due to fairness of the mods and bannings, 3-4 years down the road.
So it's possible this forum can fail due to fairness of the mods and bannings, 3-4 years down the road.
Off-topic content
Ok, my issue about sexual harassment is this. A few times before I got married, I was working in the same department with another female. In my point of view it look like she first started flirting with me, and I decide to flirt back with her. One day I decided to tell her when she came to work one day that she looked beautiful today. I didn't invade her space nor did I make any sexual advancement. I just made a statement a respectful way. She then changed her tone and then told me you "know I could report you for sexual harassment".
I think from that point on, I completely removed her from my personal space and kept it one hundred percent professional. It also open my eyes to be extremely careful when working in the work environment with the opposite sex. The only time from that point on until I got married, when I flirt with women, its when I'm online on a dating site. Like even now, I have issues with even hugging female co-workers when they try to hug me first. Right now, professionally, there is a extremely thin lie between professionalism and sexual harassment, especially in 1 on 1 situations.
I mean there's an article about that recently that men don't want to be in the same room alone with a female in a professional environment. And I kind of agree with that. And no I'm not saying all females are like that, it's just a few ones that take advantage of the laws, can really kill a males career really quickly with a sexual harassment claim.
Other than that I really agree with the OP's post 100%. It is an issue that needs to be resolved in this generation in order for both sides to move forward.
I think from that point on, I completely removed her from my personal space and kept it one hundred percent professional. It also open my eyes to be extremely careful when working in the work environment with the opposite sex. The only time from that point on until I got married, when I flirt with women, its when I'm online on a dating site. Like even now, I have issues with even hugging female co-workers when they try to hug me first. Right now, professionally, there is a extremely thin lie between professionalism and sexual harassment, especially in 1 on 1 situations.
I mean there's an article about that recently that men don't want to be in the same room alone with a female in a professional environment. And I kind of agree with that. And no I'm not saying all females are like that, it's just a few ones that take advantage of the laws, can really kill a males career really quickly with a sexual harassment claim.
Other than that I really agree with the OP's post 100%. It is an issue that needs to be resolved in this generation in order for both sides to move forward.
Thank you for posting this thread, and thanks to those that have contributed. Some very meaningful discussion is taking place, and although I'd like to think I was well informed on these issues, I have already learned a lot from the conversation.
As someone unfamiliar with these situations, until presented with evidence to the contrary, I mistakenly assumed my experience - or more specifically, lack of experience with these situations was the norm. The first time I realized that was not the case, and women and many marginalized groups were treated this way, I felt sick. I've always been known as someone to empathize with others, and knowing that there are some out there that don't spare a second thought before committing these acts has always been hard for me to understand.
How can you go ahead with committing such hurtful acts on others if you know how this will affect them? I hope the answer to that is that most don't know, so more visibility on this will help. Of course, there are some truly reprehensible people who are fully aware of how others will feel on the receiving end, but display no hesitation in committing them; hopefully these individuals are rare.
The Weinstein revelations are horrifying, but I think the exposé could be a very important event in our history. It seems more women feel they can share details on these painful experiences, and hopefully this will lead to victims being less hesitant to speak up when these actions occur, and those that have committed the acts will be judged for their actions by the public, and treated accordingly. It takes a lot of courage to say these things publicly, so seeing so many participating in this conversation is on one hand disappointing, in that our society has allowed so many of these actions to occur and made it difficult for the victims to get the support they need - on the other hand, it now seems that people are not willing to let these incidents continue to occur without bringing them to light, and that is a huge step in the right direction, so my disappointment is tempered with optimism for the future.
The faster we can get to a society where nobody is discriminated or marginalized just because of what gender, sexual preference or race they are, the better. It won't happen overnight, but the less people that go through this day to day, the closer we get.
As someone unfamiliar with these situations, until presented with evidence to the contrary, I mistakenly assumed my experience - or more specifically, lack of experience with these situations was the norm. The first time I realized that was not the case, and women and many marginalized groups were treated this way, I felt sick. I've always been known as someone to empathize with others, and knowing that there are some out there that don't spare a second thought before committing these acts has always been hard for me to understand.
How can you go ahead with committing such hurtful acts on others if you know how this will affect them? I hope the answer to that is that most don't know, so more visibility on this will help. Of course, there are some truly reprehensible people who are fully aware of how others will feel on the receiving end, but display no hesitation in committing them; hopefully these individuals are rare.
The Weinstein revelations are horrifying, but I think the exposé could be a very important event in our history. It seems more women feel they can share details on these painful experiences, and hopefully this will lead to victims being less hesitant to speak up when these actions occur, and those that have committed the acts will be judged for their actions by the public, and treated accordingly. It takes a lot of courage to say these things publicly, so seeing so many participating in this conversation is on one hand disappointing, in that our society has allowed so many of these actions to occur and made it difficult for the victims to get the support they need - on the other hand, it now seems that people are not willing to let these incidents continue to occur without bringing them to light, and that is a huge step in the right direction, so my disappointment is tempered with optimism for the future.
The faster we can get to a society where nobody is discriminated or marginalized just because of what gender, sexual preference or race they are, the better. It won't happen overnight, but the less people that go through this day to day, the closer we get.
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Aw man, I really hope Neil DeGrasse Tyson is not in that boat. He's such a lovable funny guy, and so smart. I hope he knew better. :[
Seriously.
"Oh I mean I have this totally legit story of how a false accusation by a woman really fucked me over or ruined this guy's life, but I still agree."
Just say you agree.
I was reading some article that the trauma / PTSD on sexual assault is usually much greater then veterans from military conflicts, and they attributed it to the feeling of loss of freedom / decision / control more then the physical toll.
Some people focus on the physical toll, but it's that feeling I think. So even if the most "minor" sexual assault creates that feeling in someone, it can be just as devastating.
Some people focus on the physical toll, but it's that feeling I think. So even if the most "minor" sexual assault creates that feeling in someone, it can be just as devastating.
I'm sure it is from a good place but measuring who is hurt more or what PTSD is "much" greater is really bad.
just incidentally, a guy I know here in Australia raped a woman last Sunday and is now in jail. He was already out on bail for some sort of sexual assault. I could not believe it when I read about it on FB.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/37459123/bondi-man-charged-with-rape-while-on-bail/
https://au.news.yahoo.com/video/watch/37459123/bondi-man-charged-with-rape-while-on-bail/
Persephone as a fellow gal struggling with such things in online spaces,
thank you for writing this up
thank you for writing this up
This post hits home with me and made me emotional. I do have once gone too far with an ex girlfriend. We werent intoxicated but I went too fast andwas rough when we were having sex for the first time. She told me that I was a bit rough, and it made me feel very guilty after hearing that. Sh didnt even tell about it until some days later. Thankfully it was only that one time we where I was acting very badly during sexual intercourse. In retrospective I am now always asking for consent about everything I do during sex and in general. However doing the total opposite isnt about learning either. It is important to never forget to communicate, taking things easy and slow and try to be in their shoes first. Never let your entitlement or urges get ahead of you.
It is indeed important for us men to reflect, and try to see if we also have been guilty of the same harmful behaviour. We often forget even "smaller" situations, because we know we havent "harassed", "groped", "attacked" or "raped". That is why we often dismiss our own behaviour as wrongful. We always try to see it from our own understanding than others.
Kliklik What a pleasure that was to read. So insightful and some of the quotes or conclusions being raised was very eye opening. I did learn some new things and I loved how everything was on point and actually arguing about the facts and sources being misquotes or manipulated. This is why I love progressive forums like these because we all have a lot to learn. I know I have become more tolerant of things and more empathetic thanks to posters like you. I like to continue to mature and become a decent human being. As a man I know I can never truly know how it must feel for you women but I want to try to see things from your perspective. The brave accounts of everyone really is important and I feel honoured to be able to read what everyone has to say about this important topic.
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As a woman, I find there's this disturbing pattern in sexual assault stories, at least two which constantly show up, sometimes together.
1. There's always a variation of the guy thinking she was flirting with him.
2. The girl is trouble, but he tries anyway. The girl is either unavailable (working, lifting weights, drunk, married, ect), or its telegraphed by her behaviour she's just not a nice person.
3. He doesn't know her very well at all, but he tries anyway.
Distantly related, but I've seen it in threads in the other place: men with low standards willing to give it a try with girls they don't necessarily like that much nor would be friends with if they were men.
I think it's part of toxic masculinity to try to get a woman, no matter how innapropiate or what a bad idea it is, as if there's a prize in the end. There's no winners here. There is no spoon.
As a woman, I don't assume evil what can be explained by incompetence. Thankfully, other than cat calls, I've never been physically attacked. Of course, the price of security is steep: no walking alone at night, only having one drink and never finishing it, always having my car around even when Uber might make more sense, being the designated driver in the college dorm. It kinda sucks sometimes.
1. There's always a variation of the guy thinking she was flirting with him.
2. The girl is trouble, but he tries anyway. The girl is either unavailable (working, lifting weights, drunk, married, ect), or its telegraphed by her behaviour she's just not a nice person.
3. He doesn't know her very well at all, but he tries anyway.
Distantly related, but I've seen it in threads in the other place: men with low standards willing to give it a try with girls they don't necessarily like that much nor would be friends with if they were men.
I think it's part of toxic masculinity to try to get a woman, no matter how innapropiate or what a bad idea it is, as if there's a prize in the end. There's no winners here. There is no spoon.
As a woman, I don't assume evil what can be explained by incompetence. Thankfully, other than cat calls, I've never been physically attacked. Of course, the price of security is steep: no walking alone at night, only having one drink and never finishing it, always having my car around even when Uber might make more sense, being the designated driver in the college dorm. It kinda sucks sometimes.
Education is important but I'm almost certain that most sexual assault is committed by people who are just bad people.
Might be worth considering.
Might be worth considering.
This is not a productive way to address the issue. It's reductive and actually wrong. People who commit sexual assault do bad things, but just saying "they're bad" is a perfect way for the sexual assaulters/harassers to rationalize or handwave their guilt, because almost no one sees themselves as being a bad person, so therefore, what they are doing can't be sexual assault of course, it was just harmless flirting/etc.
Finale Fireworker's post (expand the quote and read point #2) is a perfect example.
There's also this fantastic article (written in French, but Google translate is good enough to get the gist of it) about this: https://allonscontre.com/2017/10/16/arretons-de-traiter-les-violeurs-de-monstres/ (Title translation: Let's stop calling rapists "monsters")
Thank you everyone for the kind words. I really appreciate it!
Very valid point. My bad!
This is a deceptively simple question. It's easy enough to understand why men would be quick to believe rape myths and that the stats are lies; when women talk about it, it can make them feel like they're being personally accused and subject to suspicion, or like they have a collective responsibility for the behaviour of other men, or simply because they accept the Just-World Hypothesis so they blame victims and try to minimise the extent of the problem to maintain their belief that life is ultimately fair.
But how do you explain two people like Cathy Young and Christina Hoff Sommers who are professional authors or academics and claim to be "equity" feminists?
I thought about an article I read recently on an imam who was filmed by his mosque offering up an anti-semitic prayer in Arabic at Ramadan. The English translation at the time stated that he had asked for victory over disbelievers, he had called for them to be slain one by one, and to "purify" an area of Jerusalem from "the filth of the Jews". The imam lost his position at the mosque, lost his teaching job at a university, and was universally excoriated by the Muslim and Jewish communities, as well as the media and politicians. But as it turned out, the video had been edited after the original version was taken down from the mosque's website. The part about victory over disbelievers was actually from 2 minutes earlier and was spliced together with the rest to make it seem like it was related. The part about slaying them one by one was the end of the previous prayer for Syrians. And as for "Jewish filth", it rested on the translation of the Arabic word "danas", which can mean filth/impurity/desecration. In the context of a holy site, the more reasonable translation is "desecration".
So what's the point? Two translators were responsible for that original translation, and while what he said was undeniably anti-semitic, it was being intentionally misconstrued as a call for genocide. When confronted, one translator said, "Nobody should give them the benefit of the doubt that they mean something else, because they don't. (They want) to make the mainstream media in the free world believe them that they are the targets, when they are the problem in the whole world." Both translators were intelligence officers and pundits with political agendas. I think that they had encountered many who said anti-semitic things with malicious intent and then followed through with terrorism in the past, and that was colouring their approach. They adopted an us-vs-them mentality, where even misleading quotes and videos were justified because you can't let the other side gain the upper hand – you can't let them have a PR win. And they stopped seeing the individual in the context of what he alone said and did, and instead only saw him as part of a pattern. A pattern they must combat through any means necessary.
That is exactly what I think is going on with Young and Hoff Sommers. I'm sure they've seen some spurious and outrageous arguments from third-wave feminists and campus social justice movements. 18-22 year olds arent exactly an intellectual match for middle-aged academics. But they are pundits, "soldiers in the information wars". They've picked a side and now they have to defend it – they can't let 'the other side' have a PR win. They don't see individuals anymore. They only see a hivemind collective, as if RAINN or the CDC or some random 18 year old on Twitter is connected to and responsible for all bad things they've seen, all absurdities, every innocent man that's been unfairly treated, every poorly-constructed opinion ever expressed by 'the other side'. If they don't destroy CDC statistics, more innocent men go to jail, more people lose their jobs for expressing their opinions...it's all connected. And so they must destroy the other side by any means necessary.
Very valid point. My bad!
This is a deceptively simple question. It's easy enough to understand why men would be quick to believe rape myths and that the stats are lies; when women talk about it, it can make them feel like they're being personally accused and subject to suspicion, or like they have a collective responsibility for the behaviour of other men, or simply because they accept the Just-World Hypothesis so they blame victims and try to minimise the extent of the problem to maintain their belief that life is ultimately fair.
But how do you explain two people like Cathy Young and Christina Hoff Sommers who are professional authors or academics and claim to be "equity" feminists?
I thought about an article I read recently on an imam who was filmed by his mosque offering up an anti-semitic prayer in Arabic at Ramadan. The English translation at the time stated that he had asked for victory over disbelievers, he had called for them to be slain one by one, and to "purify" an area of Jerusalem from "the filth of the Jews". The imam lost his position at the mosque, lost his teaching job at a university, and was universally excoriated by the Muslim and Jewish communities, as well as the media and politicians. But as it turned out, the video had been edited after the original version was taken down from the mosque's website. The part about victory over disbelievers was actually from 2 minutes earlier and was spliced together with the rest to make it seem like it was related. The part about slaying them one by one was the end of the previous prayer for Syrians. And as for "Jewish filth", it rested on the translation of the Arabic word "danas", which can mean filth/impurity/desecration. In the context of a holy site, the more reasonable translation is "desecration".
So what's the point? Two translators were responsible for that original translation, and while what he said was undeniably anti-semitic, it was being intentionally misconstrued as a call for genocide. When confronted, one translator said, "Nobody should give them the benefit of the doubt that they mean something else, because they don't. (They want) to make the mainstream media in the free world believe them that they are the targets, when they are the problem in the whole world." Both translators were intelligence officers and pundits with political agendas. I think that they had encountered many who said anti-semitic things with malicious intent and then followed through with terrorism in the past, and that was colouring their approach. They adopted an us-vs-them mentality, where even misleading quotes and videos were justified because you can't let the other side gain the upper hand – you can't let them have a PR win. And they stopped seeing the individual in the context of what he alone said and did, and instead only saw him as part of a pattern. A pattern they must combat through any means necessary.
That is exactly what I think is going on with Young and Hoff Sommers. I'm sure they've seen some spurious and outrageous arguments from third-wave feminists and campus social justice movements. 18-22 year olds arent exactly an intellectual match for middle-aged academics. But they are pundits, "soldiers in the information wars". They've picked a side and now they have to defend it – they can't let 'the other side' have a PR win. They don't see individuals anymore. They only see a hivemind collective, as if RAINN or the CDC or some random 18 year old on Twitter is connected to and responsible for all bad things they've seen, all absurdities, every innocent man that's been unfairly treated, every poorly-constructed opinion ever expressed by 'the other side'. If they don't destroy CDC statistics, more innocent men go to jail, more people lose their jobs for expressing their opinions...it's all connected. And so they must destroy the other side by any means necessary.
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This is where I stand. With serial abusers like Weinstein and allegations made by several different women, only an idiot would side with the accused. But if there is a single case where it boils down to "he said, she said" , I don't see how anyone can assume guilt.
ETA: I think the fear of false allegations certain men seem to live in is overblown. I mean people seem to promote stories of false allegations not out of sympathy for victims but to point out how accusers should always be dismissed.
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This is just untrue. I mean I guess I would be the first one saying a sexual assaulter is a bad person, but logically speaking we didn't go from women basically as property to now because we have less bad people. No, it's because as a society we've educated ourselves and continue to educate others on how to act and what to do. Social norms have changed. Sexual assault is still rampant, but the problem is getting better as time goes on and, again, that's not because we've found ourselves with less bad people.