Overwatch 2 now has three Japanese characters and they're all ninjas

Stef · Sep 16, 2022

I guess that if the new character is part of the same "team" ("fighting school", etc, etc...) then it would probably not have been a dentist or a medieval knight.

I see it like complaining that a new character in Naruto is a ninja.

(just to be clear: i love the new character. I like how she is actually the result of two different lineages and uses "mystical" abilities for fighting. Also, love how the upper part of her suit is "classic" and the lower one is fitness-like, it says a lot of her I guess. And she is not sexualized, which is always appreciable)

Jormatar · Sep 16, 2022

But ninjas are so cool.

Spring-Loaded · Sep 16, 2022

squall23 said:
Isn't Kiriko a shrine maiden?

Oh, is that true? Well then, all is well 😇

IneptEMP · Sep 16, 2022

Vinx said:
Yes, this is clearly the inspiration for Hanzo but if that gets acknowledged then the narrative kind of falls apart.

It is possible for a character to have multiple inspirations. Hanzo himself is named after a real life ninja.

I really don't understand this insistence that there is nothing ninja-inspired about Hanzo.

Crossing Eden · Sep 16, 2022

The problem with discussing diversity and representation in Overwatch is that what some may view as stereotyping others, very specifically people from that the culture, may have the opposite feeling. Like someone ITT mentioned that Dva is a Korean gamer as a pejorative but iirc that character is massively popular in Korea and the criticisms cropped up where they should, (the sexualized and ALSO Japanese inspired skins D.va has).

Wikiwand - D.Va

D.Va is a character developed by Blizzard Entertainment for their Overwatch franchise. She was introduced at launch in their 2016 first-person hero shooter video game Overwatch and returned in its 2022 sequel, Overwatch 2. She features in the franchise's related animations and literary media...

www.wikiwand.com

IneptEMP said:
It is possible for a character to have multiple inspirations. Hanzo himself is named after a real life ninja.

I really don't understand this insistence that there is nothing ninja-inspired about Hanzo.

It's not that there's nothing ninja inspired about Hanzo it's that, he, his kit, animations, appearance, etc. all lean much more into a different kind of character that going surface level and simply referring to him as "a ninja" seems incredibly reductive. Just as it's just as reductive to call Kiriko "just another ninja." All three characters look distinct and have their own flavors to them. So it comes off as problematic to be that reductive in general about three characters who have three distinct designs and playstyles.

Skittles · Sep 16, 2022

mudai · Sep 16, 2022

While a shrine maiden isn't a ninja, a shrine maiden as a character is quite the common stereotype too and probably comes rigth after ninja and samurai.

Also, for my money there's only one true shrine maiden in all of video games: Pocky from Pocky & Rocky.

(play Pocky & Rocky: Reshrined, folks. It's really, really good!)

JimJamJones · Sep 16, 2022

Uh Hanzo is an archer, Kiriko is a shrine maiden and Genji yeah is a cybernetic ninja.

Nepenthe · Sep 16, 2022

I think people are getting into the weeds here about what a "ninja" really is and almost deliberately missing the bigger point.

Why are all three Japanese characters mired in western stereotypes of Oriental mysticism and tradition?

Anyone got an answer for that???

Vinx · Sep 16, 2022

Nepenthe said:
I think people are getting into the weeds here about what a "ninja" really is and almost deliberately missing the bigger point.

Why are all three Japanese characters mired in western stereotypes of Oriental mysticism and tradition?

Anyone got an answer for that???

You could ask Overwatch's Lead Writer Micheal Chu and Overwatch's Lead Concept Artist Arnold Tsang.

Nepenthe · Sep 16, 2022

Vinx said:
You could ask Overwatch's Lead Writer Micheal Chu and Overwatch's Lead Concept Artist Arnold Tsang.

Ignoring the big "the minorites are doing it to themselves" energy, Chu left years ago, so ironically even less of an excuse.

Crossing Eden · Sep 16, 2022

Nepenthe said:
I think people are getting into the weeds here about what a "ninja" really is and almost deliberately missing the bigger point.

Why are all three Japanese characters mired in western stereotypes of Oriental mysticism and tradition?

Anyone got an answer for that???

Overwatch's entire design philosophy as it pertains to representating any area of the world seems to be to constantly attempt to "represent the culture" with the end result being a game mired with what some view as stereotypes and others view as representation. Which is probably why they keep running into the issue of "Yea no that's just full blown unambiguous stereotype that no one feels represented by and you guys need to be better."

Examples being D.va, a korean, dressed like a school girl and playing into the stereotype of the Japanese school girl trope

and uh...I don't think this warrants any explanation as to how they fucked up:

It's one of those situations where they mean well, but could do better. By my knowledge Blizzard actually does have a consultation process when designing heroes.

Tbm24 · Sep 16, 2022

Nepenthe said:
I think people are getting into the weeds here about what a "ninja" really is and almost deliberately missing the bigger point.

Why are all three Japanese characters mired in western stereotypes of Oriental mysticism and tradition?

Anyone got an answer for that???

It sells.

Dull Request · Sep 16, 2022

sixteen-bit said:
View: https://twitter.com/manglegrove/status/1568688869524258818

Many things remain unchanged, of course, in these eight years since your last trip home. You will doubtless be pleased to hear that Bill refuses to change the family recipe at Burgers 'n' Shakes, and the Heinz Tomato ketchup is as delicious as ever. It was crowded today, as many have come to celebrate the Black Friday sales. Jeff's pick-up truck, Maisie, is getting on in years, but its likeness still spins on the sign of the auto-repair shop. Most of our favourite places are kept alive thanks to the tourists who delight in visiting monstrous theme parks such as ours. They eat cotton candy from the county fair and burn their quarters at the whack-a-mole or the new strip mall you have yet to behold. Then, happy with souvenirs, these day visitors skitter back on to the highway before nightfall, when the billboards flicker to life and the state Governor pound on closed shop shutters, taking their "share" of what is earned by the labor of others and funnelling it up to their betters through the aptly named Trickle Down Economics.

Vinx · Sep 16, 2022

Nepenthe said:
Ignoring the big "the minorites are doing it to themselves" energy, Chu left years ago, so ironically even less of an excuse.

Micheal Chu left Blizzard 2 years ago.

Yappa · Sep 16, 2022

Should have went with an overworked office lady instead.

Trey · Sep 16, 2022

COCONUT said:
I just discovered that Hanzo is a ninja now.

Same

Nepenthe · Sep 16, 2022

Skins are just a grab bag of random shit; sometimes they're representative of a character's ethnic background and interests, sometimes they're just weird shit that isn't related at all. We're talking about Kiriko's base design and inspirations here.

Also I'm not sure what is wrong with the Symmetra one? Symmetra is Indian, and that skin is a Hindu God.

Vinx said:
Micheal Chu left Blizzard 2 years ago.

You didn't contradict what I said.

Subaru · Sep 16, 2022

I've got some Sailor Mars vibe from her

L Thammy · Sep 16, 2022

Not to say that Overwatch's characters are the way to go, but one thing that I think risks being loss is that treating images that indicate foreign ethnicity and culture in any way as offensive is essentially assimilationist; it's declaring that it's incorrect to stray from the white default.

Risev · Sep 16, 2022

Still waiting for people to explain how "Hanzo and Kiriko are not ninja's, they just have some ninja skills" makes it better since that apparently collapses the entire narrative of the thread.

Yeah hanzo isn't a ninja he's just an archer who climbs walls like a ninja. Kiriko isn't a ninja, she's a shrine maiden who uses kunais, climbs walls, and uses ninjitsu hand signs to summon gates.

They're diet ninjas.

Vinx · Sep 16, 2022

Crossing Eden said:
Overwatch's entire design philosophy as it pertains to representating any area of the world seems to be to constantly attempt to "represent the culture" with the end result being a game mired with what some view as stereotypes and others view as representation. Which is probably why they keep running into the issue of "Yea no that's just full blown unambiguous stereotype that no one feels represented by and you guys need to be better."

Examples being D.va, a korean, dressed like a school girl and playing into the stereotype of the Japanese school girl trope

Korea has school uniforms too.

main-qimg-55fc0872a99a4c104abf001f35d9129e-lq

Tbm24 · Sep 16, 2022

Vinx said:
Korea has school uniforms too.

I did think that comment was odd. Schoolgirl uniform tropes aren't exclusive to Japan whatsoever.

lorddarkflare · Sep 16, 2022

This is not unambiguously bad.

It is somewhat problematic, but like any media made by one specific culture that tries to faithfully represent not just one, but many other real-world cultures is going to fuck up.

For example, all the black men in Overwatch are either currently with Talon or were with talon for some reason. Does Blizzard think that all black dudes are villains? Probably not. Are they racist? Maybe, but this does not tell us that. Should they be more mindful of what they put out into the world? Absolutely, but they would still fuck it up.

I don't think is not worth interrogating, but at the same time, I think maybe we should cool the accusations a bit. This is not egregious.

The worst thing posted in this thread is that letter though. It is truly awful.

Crossing Eden · Sep 16, 2022

Nepenthe said:
Skins are just a grab bag of random shit; sometimes they're representative of a character's ethnic background and interests, sometimes they're just weird shit that isn't related at all. We're talking about Kiriko's base design and inspirations here.

As I said her inspirations most likely came from the exact same consultation process that Overwatch characters go through when it's not, you know, a character like soldier. Like researching her development process and honestly saying that she seems like the brainchild of western writers and character designers who're leaning into orientalist stereotypes seems off the mark.

Overwatch 2’s new hero, Kiriko, is a support for Genji fans

Want to feel like a badass ninja AND heal your teammates?!

www.polygon.com

-they wanted another Japanese character that was tied to Genji in in both a narrative and gameplay sense, and her original role was inspired by him as a result
-they originally were gonna make her much more of a stereotypical ninja but strayed away from that as the writer, Kyungseo Min, and designer, Qiu Fang fleshed her out.
-they eventually settled on leaning much more into the shrine maiden aspect of the character instead of having her defined by the bit of her backstory where her mother who gave her some ninja training also trained Genji and Hanzo
-As such her main character design, animations, gameplay kit, etc. all lean very much into the magical shrine maiden aspect of her background while having small references to her upbringing being related to Genji

So basically it's sorta like the exact sort of thinking that went into the Junker Queen wherein aspects of her character, gameplay role, and backstory were, from inception, directly tied to Junkrat and Roadhog. It's in short way more nuanced of a situation than you know, hypothetically a bunch of white guys sitting in a room and patting themselves on the back for surface level representation.

Nepenthe said:
Also I'm not sure what is wrong with the Symmetra one? Symmetra is Indian, and that skin is a Hindu God.

They felt that by displaying her that way it was trivializing the god they inspired that costume.

'Overwatch' Under Fire Again: Symmetra Devi Skin Sexual Depiction Trivializes Hindu Goddess Kali

Blizzard faced another complaint about the purportedly sexualized content of 'Overwatch.' Rajan Zed, a Hindu representative, alleged that depicting Symmetra as a tantalizing Goddess Kali is hurting his faith.

www.techtimes.com

thevid · Sep 16, 2022

I like how people keep name dropping Asian developers even though I'm 99% sure none of them are Japanese.

Crossing Eden · Sep 16, 2022

Vinx said:
Korea has school uniforms too.

I'm aware, for more info on why this costume in particular was controversial.

How An Overwatch Skin Left Some Of D.Va's Biggest Fans Feeling Betrayed

Overwatch hero D.va has been considered a symbol of empowerment by a lot of feminists in the Korean Overwatch community, representing how women could be lauded for their talent instead of their looks. Long before Mei graced protest memes for Hong Kong, a group called FAMERZ, then called National...

kotaku.com

Note, it starts with Jeff Kaplan going

"This new outfit is gonna break the internet." 😬

The outfit upset some female Korean fans, as had the Black Cat skin released the year prior, due to the sexualized cultural context of both. The Academy skin, some of those fans said, fed into sexism towards Korean women, particularly teens, and disrespected the experiences of a portion of their Korean fanbase.

"When I see the Black Cat skin or the Academy skin, I do wonder if they really understand Korea," a Korean Overwatch fan and FAMERZ member named Anna told Kotaku. "I can't erase the feeling that they're projecting male sexual desire onto this "Asian woman" figure under the ruse of "representing" Korea."

This part is especially prescient

Criticisms of D.va's skins as well as those from other characters since Overwatch's 2016 launch represent the friction that the game has between its fans and the cultures from which they borrow. Overwatch presents the fantasy of a global village from an overwhelmingly white and Western vantage point, full of stereotypes, jokes, and reductions. For much of the Western fanbase and perhaps to the developers themselves, a skin might seem innocuous. But the Overwatch team has routinely made poor choices with their cosmetics that range from atonal (Brigitte's riot police skin) to straight up offensive Pharah skin that is a mish-mash of tribal designs. D.Va's skins, which have alienated some of that character's biggest fans, add to that pile of problems. They demonstrate a lack of research or sensitivity to the cultures and concepts they are bringing to life. Unfortunately, as recent events have shown, Blizzard as a company seems to lack an awareness generally speaking when it comes to sensitivity to all segments of their audience.

Brunire · Sep 16, 2022

Porky 3.0 said:
Many things remain unchanged, of course, in these eight years since your last trip home. You will doubtless be pleased to hear that Bill refuses to change the family recipe at Burgers 'n' Shakes, and the Heinz Tomato ketchup is as delicious as ever. It was crowded today, as many have come to celebrate the Black Friday sales. Jeff's pick-up truck, Maisie, is getting on in years, but its likeness still spins on the sign of the auto-repair shop. Most of our favourite places are kept alive thanks to the tourists who delight in visiting monstrous theme parks such as ours. They eat cotton candy from the county fair and burn their quarters at the whack-a-mole or the new strip mall you have yet to behold. Then, happy with souvenirs, these day visitors skitter back on to the highway before nightfall, when the billboards flicker to life and the state Governor pound on closed shop shutters, taking their "share" of what is earned by the labor of others and funnelling it up to their betters through the aptly named Trickle Down Economics.

10/10

I always got light Punch-Out vibes from the heroes in this game.

Ceerious · Sep 16, 2022

Remember that, Mei is the only Chinese character so far, but they didn't made her a martial artist or a re-skinned Chun Li. She has realistic character background. That's why I dig her design as a Chinese. But all three Japanese characters are heavily inspired by Japanese feudalism aesthetics. I think they could do better.

SunshinePuppies · Sep 16, 2022

Qark-Voss said:
At least in Overwatch they have representation and not in a negative way.

Imagine being Italian like me and seeing your country and your people represented in the 80% of the non-italian videogames as mafia guys X°D

If there will be an Italian character in Overwatch 2, most likely they will be connected to the criminal organization Talon, I'm quite shure of that >__>

Alfred Fettuccino worked at his family's pizza parlor for years until suddenly robots attack, other things happen, now he breaks barriers and tears down stereotypes by serving up slices of justice

BloodRayne · Sep 16, 2022

Isn't Hanzo technically a Yakuza?

thetrin · Sep 16, 2022

Chaos2Frozen said:
I mean, at least she's not a Magical Girl.

Dude, that would have been WAY better!

Crossing Eden · Sep 16, 2022

thevid said:
I like how people keep name dropping Asian developers even though I'm 99% sure none of them are Japanese.

I don't like the implication of this post. It is absolutely important to point out WHO is working on what as it pertains to Overwatch characters and what the process behind the character was if it's literally on record. You'll note, I never pointed out that either person were Japanese, I very specifically pointed out who two people who led the narrative and character design behind the character. I still would have done that if it was instead, two silicon valley white dudes.

Vinx · Sep 16, 2022

Crossing Eden said:
I'm aware, for more info on why this costume in particular was controversial.

OK, but if the outfit is controversial for sexualizing teens then why did you originally post "playing into the stereotype of the Japanese school girl trope"?

Nepenthe · Sep 16, 2022

Crossing Eden said:
So basically it's sorta like the exact sort of thinking that went into the Junker Queen wherein aspects of her character, gameplay role, and backstory were, from inception, directly tied to Junkrat and Roadhog. It's in short way more nuanced of a situation than you know, hypothetically a bunch of white guys sitting in a room and patting themselves on the back for surface level representation.

Oh of course. I'm aware, roughly, of how Overwatch's character design process goes. But the question still remains of why throughout this process Kiriko was nonetheless pigeonholed into such a role. I mean, it's not like the Shimada family were only ninjas; they were engaged in all sorts of crime and were one of the richest families in Japan. That level of social reach means you can theoretically have someone who has been affected by this family without having to lean too hard into that kind of stereotyping.

To me, the narrative elements and even rerouting her into more of a shrine maiden role are just ad hoc justifications for the crew ultimately going "the third Japanese character HAS to have ninja tropes applied to them; they literally can't be anything else." I don't think it even necessarily kills Kiriko either, personally. She's got a funny personality on her from what little we've seen, and it is far and away from Hanzo and Genji's "noble warrior" shtick that was cringe even back in 2016. And it's ultimately not out of the ordinary of Overwatch's shtick, which is using pastiches of cultural stereotypes if they make a visually or narratively interesting character.

I guess my point is that I understand why Asian players would feel tired, and I don't see how you can argue back with them. Like, it's not a matter of if she's stereotypical, but rather if her design is a deal breaker for you in lieu of things like her personality and kit.

Crossing Eden said:
They felt that by displaying her that way it was trivializing the god they inspired that costume.

That makes sense. Thanks for the article!

Crossing Eden · Sep 16, 2022

Vinx said:
OK, but if the outfit is controversial for sexualizing teens then why did you originally post "playing into the stereotype of the Japanese school girl trope"?

You're right that's actually my bad. As the Korean people who felt insulted felt that they were leaning into the sexualization of Korean school girls. Not Japanese specifically.

Nepenthe said:
Oh of course. I'm aware, roughly, of how Overwatch's character design process goes. But the question still remains of why throughout this process Kiriko was nonetheless pigeonholed into such a role. I mean, it's not like the Shimada family were only ninjas; they were engaged in all sorts of crime and were one of the richest families in Japan. That level of social reach means you can theoretically have someone who has been affected by this family without having to lean too hard into that kind of stereotyping.

I definitely agree. I think it's just a literal consequence of them seemingly designing every new character to have some relation to existing overwatch characters from their region and in turn making it feel like an incredibly small universe. One where "if you're from here, you'll adhere to this specific piece of backstory and here's how you tie in, also that applies to your gameplay role and character design." It's what I meant by "well meaning" and not intentionally malicious or even as far as diet racism. And i'm sure they're thinking about this and in the future would be able to see the optics and will most likely not introduce yet another Japanese character that's directly related to the gameplay sandbox/narrative lore of this trio. Or at least I hope they see the optics.

To me, the narrative elements and even rerouting her into more of a shrine maiden role are just ad hoc justifications for the crew ultimately going "the third Japanese character HAS to have ninja tropes applied to them; they literally can't be anything else." I don't think it even necessarily kills Kiriko either, personally. She's got a funny personality on her from what little we've seen, and it is far and away from Hanzo and Genji's "noble warrior" shtick that was cringe even back in 2016. And it's ultimately not out of the ordinary of Overwatch's shtick, which is using pastiches of cultural stereotypes if they make a visually or narratively interesting character.

I definitely agree that the next Japanese character should have absolutely no relation to existing trio. But like, watch it be "Kiriko's mom is now playable" or something. 😂

Nepenthe said:
I guess my point is that I understand why Asian players would feel tired, and I don't see how you can argue back with them. Like, it's not a matter of if she's stereotypical, but rather if her design is a deal breaker for you in lieu of things like her personality and kit.

I'm actually curious as to what her reception has been in the East. As she's been positively received in the west but like, half of that is "bLENDER ArTists ARE gONnA BE EaTInG."

Dusky · Sep 16, 2022

Hanzo is absolutely a ninja if not more so than his brother Genji. He was and still is a trained assassin and was trained just like Genji was.

Nepenthe said:
I think people are getting into the weeds here about what a "ninja" really is and almost deliberately missing the bigger point.

Why are all three Japanese characters mired in western stereotypes of Oriental mysticism and tradition?

Anyone got an answer for that???

Agreed 100%. Even if they wanted to draw from stereotypes there's plenty they could have pulled from too which isn't this.

Qark-Voss · Sep 16, 2022

SunshinePuppies said:
Alfred Fettuccino worked at his family's pizza parlor for years until suddenly robots attack, other things happen, now he breaks barriers and tears down stereotypes by serving up slices of justice

As we say in Italy... "No vabbé, volo!"

(That literarly means "No, oh well, i fly". But can be intended in english as a sort of LOL)

Falchion · Sep 16, 2022

Is her favorite food ramen? 🍜

Gustaf · Sep 16, 2022

can i trade one of my two mexican criminals for 1 of your ninjas?

LumberPanda · Sep 16, 2022

Their next American character could also lay off the guns, pls.

Nepenthe · Sep 16, 2022

Gustaf said:
can i trade one of my two mexican criminals for 1 of your ninjas?

It really is a choice that both characters of Mexican heritage work for the terrorist organization.

Haze · Sep 16, 2022

Man you would think that diversity algorithm they created and bragged about would have prevented this or something

Harry Keogh · Sep 16, 2022

Seems like some members have pointed this out already.
I was on the design team of OW2. I can tell you that it was not the intend for her to come across as a ninja. She is inspired by Shinto shrine maiden.

Nepenthe · Sep 16, 2022

Harry Keogh said:
Seems like some members have pointed this out already.
I was on the design team of OW2. I can tell you that it was not the intend for her to come across as a ninja. She is inspired by Shinto shrine maiden.

While her healing mechanic and overall character design are very well within the realm of a Shine Maiden, the use of kunai, the teleportation mechanic, the "Naruto" hand symbols for her Ultimate, and the wall climb make her very ninja-esque.

Angie · Sep 16, 2022

All the Australian Characters looking like they came from Mad Max universe is just so weird.

spiritfox · Sep 16, 2022

Vinx said:
You could ask Overwatch's Lead Writer Micheal Chu and Overwatch's Lead Concept Artist Arnold Tsang.

Citing Chinese names to explain Japanese stereotypes is not the gotcha you think it is.

pants · Sep 16, 2022

Risev said:
He just so happens to be able to climb walls as a ninja and also trained under a ninja.

Archery is historically something a samurai would learn

Nepenthe · Sep 16, 2022

Angie said:
All the Australian Characters looking like they came from Mad Max universe is just so weird.

There was a huge explosion of one of Australia's robot factories that caused the Outback to become irradiated, so yeah, a whole chunk of the population now essentially lives a Mad Max lifestyle.

spiritfox said:
Citing Chinese names to explain Japanese stereotypes is not the gotcha you think it is.

Aren't they all the same? /s

Crossing Eden · Sep 16, 2022

Angie said:
All the Australian Characters looking like they came from Mad Max universe is just so weird.

IIRC Australia in the Overwatch universe is quite literally a Mad Max esque wasteland.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_q0QGtk_AM0

Overwatch 2 now has three Japanese characters and they're all ninjas

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