WedgeX

Member
Oct 27, 2017
13,318
Some of the revelations are cultural: The hysteria over a video of AOC dancing in college says volumes, not about her, but about the hysterics. But in some ways the more important revelations are intellectual: The right's denunciation of AOC's "insane" policy ideas serves as a very good reminder of who is actually insane.

The controversy of the moment involves AOC's advocacy of a tax rate of 70-80 percent on very high incomes, which is obviously crazy, right? I mean, who thinks that makes sense? Only ignorant people like … um, Peter Diamond, Nobel laureate in economics and arguably the world's leading expert on public finance. (Although Republicans blocked him from an appointment to the Federal Reserve Board with claims that he was unqualified. Really.) And it's a policy nobody has ever implemented, aside from … the United States, for 35 years after World War II — including the most successful period of economic growth in our history.

To be more specific, Diamond, in work with Emmanuel Saez — one of our leading experts on inequality — estimated the optimal top tax rate to be 73 percent. Some put it higher: Christina Romer, top macroeconomist and former head of President Obama's Council of Economic Advisers, estimates it at more than 80 percent.

Where do these numbers come from? Underlying the Diamond-Saez analysis are two propositions: Diminishing marginal utility and competitive markets.

Diminishing marginal utility is the common-sense notion that an extra dollar is worth a lot less in satisfaction to people with very high incomes than to those with low incomes. Give a family with an annual income of $20,000 an extra $1,000 and it will make a big difference to their lives. Give a guy who makes $1 million an extra thousand and he'll barely notice it.

An aside: What if we take into account the reality that markets aren't perfectly competitive, that there's a lot of monopoly power out there? The answer is that this almost surely makes the case for even higher tax rates, since high-income people presumably get a lot of those monopoly rents.

So AOC, far from showing her craziness, is fully in line with serious economic research. (I hear that she's been talking to some very good economists.) Her critics, on the other hand, do indeed have crazy policy ideas — and tax policy is at the heart of the crazy.

You see, Republicans almost universally advocate low taxes on the wealthy, based on the claim that tax cuts at the top will have huge beneficial effects on the economy. This claim rests on research by … well, nobody. There isn't any body of serious work supporting G.O.P. tax ideas, because the evidence is overwhelmingly against those ideas.

https://nyti.ms/2GUnmWB

I really never thought I'd see "marginal utility" outside of a microecon class.
 

TerminusFox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,851
It seems abundantly clear to me that the GOP has no idea how current taxes work let along margins of 60+%
 

Foffy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
16,400
It seems abundantly clear to me that the GOP has no idea how current taxes work let along margins of 60+%

And they're hoping they've propagandized enough of America to automatically be against it.

I mean, we need someone to campaign on a very simple reality: every time we've lowered taxes, things have gotten worse. This alone should break the GOP story.
 

jeelybeans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,948
Wow, really interesting research. I knew taxes used to be a lot higher for the topic income brackets but didn't realize it would be that high.

Still, that seems like the right amount to both have a more equitable society and a balanced budget. It's the only path forward.
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
It seems abundantly clear to me that the GOP has no idea how current taxes work let along margins of 60+%

You would be surprised how many people on old GAF and probably here struggle with tax brackets and taxes in general. Hell, I'm including myself in there, well, except I at least know about tax brackets; that your entire income isn't taxed at the the highest bracket you're in - a fact that eludes way way way too many people.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,713
I mean this isn't exactly ground breaking stuff. Other countries heavily tax the rich and it works just fine. Anyone with a basic Econ degree would know all about this kind of stuff.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
11,338
I'm really glad the conversation is happening as it can eventually shift the Overton window everywhere (not just the US) on having tax brackets dedicated to the super rich and illuminate why it's not so far fetched to think heavily taxing these huge incomes makes sense.

It might also finally educate people on tax brackets. I remember a couple of threads where people had no idea how these worked, despite being subjected to them and making their votes about taxes.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
https://nyti.ms/2GUnmWB

I really never thought I'd see "marginal utility" outside of a microecon class.
....do you know who Paul Krugman is?
I mean this isn't exactly ground breaking stuff. Other countries heavily tax the rich and it works just fine. Anyone with a basic Econ degree would know all about this kind of stuff.
Basic understanding of economics is missing from massive swaths of the population.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,018
It's nice to read an Op Ed from the Times that isn't begging me to empathize with xenophobes.

Seems like a lot of words to simply say that what should be common sense tax policy is always mysteriously framed as liberal fantasy.
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
....do you know who Paul Krugman is?

Basic understanding of economics is missing from massive swaths of the population.

The problem is that we consider microeconomics foundational and folks will only get to macro if they have cause to, so it encourages that whole "treat everything like a small household or business" mindset.

Should go Macro first. Micro you'll only really need if you're going into Business. Macro impacts us all.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,306
Sydney
Yeah it's been really telling how many people online recently have thought that if you go $1 over the bracket that your entire income is taxed at the new rate, and not just the income earned in the bracket

I assume some of that is disingenuous bad faith arguments but no wonder people are so pissed off at taxes if they think that's how it works
 

Paz

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,166
Brisbane, Australia
A not insignificant amount of people still believe in trickle down economics, and view modern research backed economic policy as crazy left wing nonsense.

Dunno what you do about that. Also schools are failing horribly if people legitimately don't understand progressive tax brackets.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
33,181
The problem is that we consider microeconomics foundational and folks will only get to macro if they have cause to, so it encourages that whole "treat everything like a small household or business" mindset.

Should go Macro first. Micro you'll only really need if you're going into Business. Macro impacts us all.
I remember when I was in school, the base level econ class was an overview of the basics in both micro and macro and how the two shouldn't be conflated.

The issue is that the average person only really needs micro in their daily life, so they might not pay any attention to macro outside of passing a test. Which is the same problem we have with history and literature classes.

A not insignificant amount of people still believe in trickle down economics, and view modern research backed economic policy as crazy left wing nonsense.

Dunno what you do about that. Also schools are failing horribly if people legitimately don't understand progressive tax brackets.
Most schools don't have time to teach taxes. Even if they do there's always a shot you wind up with an ideologue that will fuck the class up.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
Yeah it's been really telling how many people online recently have thought that if you go $1 over the bracket that your entire income is taxed at the new rate, and not just the income earned in the bracket

I assume some of that is disingenuous bad faith arguments but no wonder people are so pissed off at taxes if they think that's how it works
1/3 pound fast food burgers inevitably fail because a lot of people see 4>3 and don't understand that the 1/3 lber is bigger.

I wish I were kidding.

Getting a majority of the country to understand basic econ or tax brackets is a symptom of the underlying problem: People.
A not insignificant amount of people still believe in trickle down economics, and view modern research backed economic policy as crazy left wing nonsense.

Dunno what you do about that. Also schools are failing horribly if people legitimately don't understand progressive tax brackets.
On the flip side you get leftists arguing that all economists are just secret right wingers.
 

YaBish

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,371
I really appreciate this article. When I try to explain how 70% tax rates helped us achieve as a country to people around me, they all look at me like I'm stupid. The Republican orthodoxy of trickle down economics has really taken hold in Middle America.
 

bwahhhhh

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
3,181
the thing is, when they say "Make America Great Again" they mean more like the 50s and 60s USA, where women were housewives and you could be openly racist without repercussion, but top income tax brackets were also over 70%.

that part is never mentioned. selectively MAGA-ing.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
The average American (and this is true in Canada too and I'm sure many other countries) doesn't understand marginal tax rates. If you say people making 1 million will be taxed at a marginal rate of 70%, they think they will make a total of $300,000.

This misunderstanding is the #1 problem affecting public finances.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,974
1/3 pound fast food burgers inevitably fail because a lot of people see 4>3 and don't understand that the 1/3 lber is bigger.

I wish I were kidding.

Getting a majority of the country to understand basic econ or tax brackets is a symptom of the underlying problem: People.
This misunderstanding is the #1 problem affecting public finances.

Sounds like the basic problem is poor math skills (and I don't just mean the US, this lack of mathematical thinking affects most of the wold). And the solution for that is better education, perhaps also toning down of this modern trend of anti-intellectualism.
And this will only become more and more of a problem as "simple work" will be more and more automized: Far fewer jobs requiring phsyical labor, but likely needing more jobs where you might need to be able to calculate some percentages, and not mechanically either, but say to solve problems on a whiteboard. That's the kind of stuff that algorithms will never magically solve.
 

_Karooo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,029
Krugman is pretty awful to read these days. He comes across as a bitter man. And no, 70% tax rates would be a disaster if it was implemented.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,306
Sydney
I don't even know it's basic maths illiteracy, I am truly awful at maths but understand how bracketing works it's just a simple logic concept.

It feels like the result of an intellectual project to misinform people of the basic characteristics of a progressive tax system.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Sounds like the basic problem is poor math skills (and I don't just mean the US, this lack of mathematical thinking affects most of the wold). And the solution for that is better education, perhaps also toning down of this modern trend of anti-intellectualism.
And this will only become more and more of a problem as "simple work" will be more and more automized: Far fewer jobs requiring phsyical labor, but likely needing more jobs where you might need to be able to calculate some percentages, and not mechanically either, but say to solve problems on a whiteboard. That's the kind of stuff that algorithms will never magically solve.

It's not a math skill issue, it's very to easy to understand. If you're an American, at a family gathering, explain marginal tax rate. Most will say you are wrong, it's not true, it's not how it works. You will have to force them to verify. It's very easy to understand, but people just don't know it.
 

turtle553

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,274
People arguing for really high tax rates for the super wealthy don't realize the effective rate was much lower because of deductions and loopholes.

When the tax structure was revamped to significantly lower top rates, it also eliminated a lot of deductions. You can't just go back to those rates with the current tax policy and expect it to be the same as the 50s.
 

Armaros

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,902
People arguing for really high tax rates for the super wealthy don't realize the effective rate was much lower because of deductions and loopholes.

When the tax structure was revamped to significantly lower top rates, it also eliminated a lot of deductions. You can't just go back to those rates with the current tax policy and expect it to be the same as the 50s.

You think Rich people even now pay their on paper rates? Or even in the general ballpark with normal deductions ?
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,974
It's not a math skill issue, it's very to easy to understand. If you're an American, at a family gathering, explain marginal tax rate. Most will say you are wrong, it's not true, it's not how it works. You will have to force them to verify. It's very easy to understand, but people just don't know it.
How does that work? Don't you have to do your own taxes in the US (speaking as a European where my countries Treasury just does it for me)? hard to imagine you don't know how to calculate marginal tax rates, if you ever, you know, done it on paper.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
How does that work? Don't you have to do your own taxes in the US (speaking as a European where my countries Treasury just does it for me)? hard to imagine you don't know how to calculate marginal tax rates, if you ever, you know, done it on paper.

That's done automatically. You earn X, you pay Y, on each pay, and owe this or that. Softwares do all the maths, and most people have their income tax report done by a professional. They see how much they earn, and how much they paid in "taxes". They don't know how the brackets work. In the end it's just "how much do I owe?" or "Do I have a refund?".
 

zero_suit

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,605
How does that work? Don't you have to do your own taxes in the US (speaking as a European where my countries Treasury just does it for me)? hard to imagine you don't know how to calculate marginal tax rates, if you ever, you know, done it on paper.
Tax prep software and physical companies (H/R Block, Liberty Tax, etc.) take the hard work out of it.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
20,008
Alexandria Ocacio-Cortez called out Steve Scalise on it.



They're talking down to their low information voter base. They know how it works. The inequality is a feature not a bug.
 

_Karooo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,029
There should be a bigger emphasis on indirect taxation. Rich people will always spend a lot of money and you can get much more revenues through that. Tax on essential items should be excluded obviously. With this you can bring the entire population in the tax net. Scaring rich people off through high direct taxation makes no sense to me. Exclude essential items like food etc. put a 10% tax on other purchases.
 

turtle553

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,274
You think Rich people even now pay their on paper rates? Or even in the general ballpark with normal deductions ?

No, but they pay closer to the top rate now than when it was 70%. I'm just saying when the tax system was overhauled, the effective rate the rich paid didn't change by a huge amount.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
There should be a bigger emphasis on indirect taxation. Rich people will always spend a lot of money and you can get much more revenues through that. Tax on essential items should be excluded obviously. With this you can bring the entire population in the tax net. Scaring rich people off through high direct taxation makes no sense to me. Exclude essential items like food etc. put a 10% tax on other purchases.
One of the legitimate issues with the sky-high marginal rates was that it led to the money being left in corporate pockets and spent by them (via their CEOS and such) instead. Optimizing tax policy there is legitimately super complicated and something where you need to move a lot of levers at once in order to try and counter peoples next move along with their second third and fourth to try and get around the tax rates.
 

dabig2

Member
Oct 29, 2017
5,116
You think Rich people even now pay their on paper rates? Or even in the general ballpark with normal deductions ?

More to the point, they're not even paying the same tax rate as us as most super wealthy people who would be affected deal in long term capital gains, which is capped.

An oldie but a goodie as it's still pretty much the same 7 years later...
Newsweek: Why The Super-Rich Pay Half the Taxes We Do
[...]
Bartlett, a former member of the Reagan White House, isn't against the wealthy paying higher taxes. He's that rare conservative who thinks higher taxes need to be part of the deficit debate. His beef? It's a hollow gesture to say the federal government should raise the tax rate on the country's top wage earners when the likes of Zuckerberg have most of their wealth tied up in stock. Many of the super-rich see virtually all their income as capital gains, and capital gains are taxed at a much lower rate—15 percent—than ordinary income. When Warren Buffett talks about paying a lower tax rate than his secretary, that's because she sees most of her pay through a paycheck, while the bulk of his compensation comes in the form of capital gains and dividends. In 2006, for instance, Buffett paid 17.7 percent in taxes on the $46 million he booked that year, while his secretary lost 30 percent of her $60,000 salary to the government.

"It's easy to say 'Raise taxes' when you know you're not going to have to pay those taxes," Bartlett says. "What I don't hear is 'Let's raise the capital-gains tax.'" Instead the focus has been on the federal tax rate paid by those with an annual income of $250,000 or more—the top 3 percent of earners. Bartlett argues that while raising taxes on the country's richest individuals would go a long way in easing the debt crisis, it makes no sense to treat the professional making a few hundred thousand dollars a year the same as the Richie Rich set. Maybe it's hard to muster sympathy for an executive pulling down $1 million a year. But ours is a tax system where a person in the top tax bracket (those earning more than $374,000 in 2010) pays a tax rate of 35 percent on the upper portions of his or her income (37.9 percent if you include Medicare), whereas a hedge-fund manager or mogul earning 10 or 100 times that amount pays less than half that tax rate.

"America has two tax systems. Separate and unequal," says David Cay Johnston, a bestselling author and columnist for Tax Notes, who has spent much of the past decade exposing ways the tax system favors the wealthy.

It wasn't always this way. Until the 1990s, the capital-gains tax was 28 percent. The rate was lowered to 20 percent during Bill Clinton's tenure—and, lo and behold, says Johnston, the tax rate paid by the country's 400 wealthiest souls fell by the same 8 percentage points. When the second President Bush lowered the capital-gains tax another 5 points along with his other tax cuts, the country's richest citizens saw their tax rate fall another 5.5 percent, Johnston says.


Shit has to got change. More brackets, unleash the cap on capital gains, and educate every Tom, Dick, and Harry about marginal taxation. Hilary Clinton's 2016 tax makeover plan should be the bare minimum we start out with trying to do.
 

nextJin

Member
Mar 17, 2018
455
Georgia
If anyone has actually listened to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez-Cortez speak on how government works or economics you wouldn't think this article is a good read.

How she has an economics degree speaks volumes of our education system.

She is just as bad as Bernie when it comes to fighting for Socialist policies at the foundational level.
 

Kirblar

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
30,744
If anyone has actually listened to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez-Cortez speak on how government works or economics you wouldn't think this article is a good read.

How she has an economics degree speaks volumes of our education system.

She is just as bad as Bernie when it comes to fighting for Socialist policies at the foundational level.
It's not a pure Econ degree, IIRC, it's a poly sci one w/ some Econ elements but they wouldn't be the primary focus.

She's gotten some stuff really wrong on health care/econ policy, which is why it's good that she's getting advice from economists who know their stuff now, if Krugman's sourcing is correct. (lol watch it be him.)
 

makonero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,718
If anyone has actually listened to Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez-Cortez speak on how government works or economics you wouldn't think this article is a good read.

How she has an economics degree speaks volumes of our education system.

She is just as bad as Bernie when it comes to fighting for Socialist policies at the foundational level.
She knows more than most on this issue. How do you get off saying she doesn't know what she's talking about and then don't provide any actual examples?
 
Dec 12, 2017
9,686
Alexandria Ocacio-Cortez called out Steve Scalise on it.



They're talking down to their low information voter base. They know how it works. The inequality is a feature not a bug.

She snatches so many wigs it ain't funny.

Their response?

"Boooooooooooo!!!"

You know you're doing it right when you are getting heel heat on your first day.